Can you be an Optimistic Nihilist?

[Ned Dukes]

My friend and I were having a discussion on wether you could be an optimistic nihilist, I said it was completely possible to be optimistic about pesimism, but my friend says nihilism is pesimistic and therefore you can't be optimistic about it. Tell me what you think.

[Killfacer]

Don't want to seem like a prick mate but your posting in the wrong section. This is a part of the site for you to introduce yourself and us to say "hello!". You might want to repost this question in learning and just use this to introduce yourself. Or ask a mod to move it.

[Killfacer]

Oh yeah, welcome by the way.

[Comrade Corwin]

I think that is a perfectly reasonable question and I'd have to say, "Depends." Nihilism is all about doom and gloom and the Soviet Union even wrote a textbook that claimed that Nihilism was simply any life-style that encourages the feeling of self doubt and the need to bring down society by any means necessary. However, I do believe that you can believe in eliminating all forms and symbols of society and feel optimistic about what you believe the result of your work will be.
Since this is the introduction section, I hope you may post more information about yourself and why you decided to join our lovely forum.

[scarletghoul]

Interesting question. I dont know the answer.

And I don't think the USSR definition applies here, because this isnt the USSR

[Bilan]

Well, unless you're hoping for everything to be totally meaningless and self-destructive, then no, not really.

[Comrade Corwin]

This may not be the U.S.S.R., but it is that Soviet textbook is the only book I can use as a reference on the subject as a reliable source. Anything else that has shaped my opinion on the subject of Nihilism have been in history books, which sadly lack the motives or feelings and only describe the actions of the Nihilists.
I think it is pretty obvious that this is not the U.S.S.R., so no need to be snide.

[Post-Something]

No, you cannot be an optimistic Nihilist. Simply by having feelings and acting upon them, by using langauage, by making any connection with the outside world, you are attributing meaning. Nihilism is one of the stupidest philosophies there is, in my opinion.

And Comrade Corwin, you cannot be a Nihilist and have motives and feelings. In fact, your (or the USSR's) definition of Nihilism is pretty much, well, not true.

[Comrade Corwin]

How come yours is? I have a former NATION backing me. What is your proof!?
Hahaha! I mean this in good fun, of course. Maybe you could find a real definition and reference, Comrade?

[Post-Something]

This is the widely accepted view of the concept, so that's why I usually use that definition.

Nihilism is a view that everything is meaningless, without value, and thus useless to progress and the left.


Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy.
http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/n/nihilism.htm (http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/n/nihilism.htm)

[Pirate Utopian]

In fact, your (or the USSR's) definition of Nihilism is pretty much, well, not true.
Nothing is true.

[casper]

"Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy." to some extent, that definition is true, however a true nihilist would have an impulse to create, for it would be create or die, and if there is no point, there is no point in offing oneself. might as well enjoy the time. what joy there is that there is no universal point, that all is baseless, for it is Because everything is nothing that everything is possible :) what joy, for i am the form master, i am the closest there is to god, can you feel the power surge though your bones!? even though in this darkness you know the light is just your own delusion, still what fun it is :) i've currently reading friedrich nietzsche's " the will to power" i like it allot. also, i would like to point out that to create is the same as to destroy, and that to destroy is also the same as to create. It is perfectly possible to be a nihilist and an optimist, I am living proof of it. life is great because there is no point.

[Comrade Corwin]

Oh, my... That sounds horrible to me. I've always thought that everyone must have a purpose in life.
Wouldn't it be strange for a Nihilist to be using a forum like this? I'm not being skeptical, I honestly want to know. To me, it sounds like Nihilism would be a theory that one had to assume, not learn.

[Post-Something]

Oh, my... That sounds horrible to me. I've always thought that everyone must have a purpose in life.
Wouldn't it be strange for a Nihilist to be using a forum like this? I'm not being skeptical, I honestly want to know. To me, it sounds like Nihilism would be a theory that one had to assume, not learn.

You're 100% correct here.

[RedAnarchist]

Welcome to Revleft:)

I'll move this to Learning.

[casper]

you just create your own purpose, if you want.
nihilism is pretty obvious if you ask me. all you have to do is look at the nature of categories and how much knowledge about knowledge is truly possible. most of the models we use are not absolute, their just useful, yet we treat them like they must be 100% accurate for some reason... I'm not sure why, security issues maybe? there not being a universal point means that you are free to be, your not judged based on an outside expectation that threatens to tyrannize and neglect if you don't follow what it wants. there is no hell for following your own heart. that is the true gift of pointlessness, your are free to create your own point. of course i can also try and point out that there are some things that seem universal in all of existence and that they could amount to some type of "point" depending on interpretation. however i consider a "point" or meaning to existent as necessarily coming from a conscious entity. and i don't believe in humanized ideas of god or the fantasy of truly free will. all this life is is a dynamic restructuring of apparent fundamentals. it has no purpose, no intention, you are as limited only by how much control you can exercise over this reforming. of course, theres also that entire problem of existence, that being that the very physical "laws" that make existence possible are also the very things that most restrict someone, technically we can never be free, because we are always under such rules, if some one finds a way to break reality and become god, i would really be interested in knowing how. In till then, I'll have to be satisfied in the knowledge that i am the closest thing to a meaning giver. :) I've been feeling really good lately, it has to do in part with that fact, i feel powerful over myself, like i have at least a small amount of control, even though technically i am nothing but a falsity of form myself, i don't really care though, i'm going to let myself feel good, weather I like it or not. :)

[DesertShark]

My friend and I were having a discussion on wether you could be an optimistic nihilist, I said it was completely possible to be optimistic about pesimism, but my friend says nihilism is pesimistic and therefore you can't be optimistic about it. Tell me what you think.


Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy.

I guess if you're ok/happy with everything not having meaning, then you would not be pessimistic. So as long as nihilism doesn't bring you down emotionally, then you could be happy. I don't know if under nihilism you could be optimistic or pessimistic because you would have to place some value on the future or future outcomes in either case.

[Rascolnikova]

No, you cannot be an optimistic Nihilist. Simply by having feelings and acting upon them, by using langauage, by making any connection with the outside world, you are attributing meaning. Nihilism is one of the stupidest philosophies there is, in my opinion.

This is what you get for liking too much Camus. :P

Read The ethics of ambiguity.

"To declare that existence is absurd is to deny that it can ever be given a meaning; to say that it is ambiguous is to assert that its meaning is never fixed, that it must be constantly won. Absurdity challenges every ethics; but also the finished rationalization of the real would leave no room for ethics; it is because man's condition is ambiguous that he seeks, through failure and outrageousness, to save his existence. Thus, to say that action has to be lived in its truth, that is, in the consciousness of the antinomies which it involves, does not mean that one has to renounce it."

also

". . .nihilistic pessimism and rationalistic optimism fail in their effort to juggle away the bitter truth of sacrifice: they also eliminate all reasons for wanting it. Someone told a young invalid who wept because she had to leave her home, her occupations, and where whole past life, "Get cured. The rest has no importance." "But if nothing has any importance," she answered, "what good is it to get cured?"

She was right. In order for this world to have any importance, in order for our undertaking to have a meaning and to be worthy of sacrifices, we must affirm the concrete and particular thickness of this world and the individual reality of our projects and ourselves. This is what democratic societies understand. . ."

[Annie K.]

Why couldn't nihilists be optimistic ?
Most can still get hard; lust as a reason to take action is more exciting than meanings or values.

[Glenn Beck]

Nothing is true.

Everything is permitted

[Chicano Shamrock]

To be honest I don't know an incredible amount about nihilism but I have always understood it as a train of thought that explained that there is no good, evil or in between. Nor any intrinsic meaning to life.

If this is what it is then I can do nothing but agree with it. Also if this is a true definition than I don't see why you couldn't be optimistic at the same time. It would seem to me that after realizing there is no specific meaning to life you could be optimistic about knowing htat you are in complete control of your time on earth.

[Decolonize The Left]

My friend and I were having a discussion on wether you could be an optimistic nihilist, I said it was completely possible to be optimistic about pesimism, but my friend says nihilism is pesimistic and therefore you can't be optimistic about it. Tell me what you think.

There is a simple answer to this question, but it will help to define the terms which we are using. All definitions courtesy of wiktionary:
Nihilism:

Extreme skepticism, maintaining that nothing has a real existence
The rejection of all moral principles.

Optimism:


a tendency (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tendency) to expect (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/expect) the best (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/best), or at least, a favourable (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/favourable) outcome (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/outcome)
the doctrine (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/doctrine) that this world (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/world) is the best of all possible (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/possible) worlds
the belief (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/belief) that good (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/good) will eventually (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/eventually) triumph (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/triumph) over evil (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/evil)

Pessimism:


A general belief (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/belief) that bad things will happen (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/happen).
The doctrine (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/doctrine) that this world (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/world) is the worst of all possible worlds (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/worlds).

We can see now that it is impossible for a nihilist to be either optimistic or pessimistic. For nihilism rejects all moral principles, and hence optimism and pessimism become meaningless immediately as they make basic normative claims (to the 'good' and 'bad').

- August

[Annie K.]

a tendency (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tendency) to expect (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/expect) the best (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/best), or at least, a favourable (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/favourable) outcome (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/outcome)

That implies no moral principles.

[Post-Something]

a tendency (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tendency) to expect (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/expect) the best (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/best), or at least, a favourable (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/favourable) outcome (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/outcome)

That implies no moral principles.

How can anything be favorable without value or meaning?

[Decolonize The Left]

a tendency (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tendency) to expect (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/expect) the best (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/best), or at least, a favourable (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/favourable) outcome (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/outcome)

That implies no moral principles.

"Best" and "favourable" are normative claims...

- August

[Annie K.]

A nihilist has still sensations and feelings. That's enough. That's a frame of reference for normative claims (at a radically subjective level), true, as are morality or ethics, but this one is different.

If following an event, the life of the nihilist becomes less boring, that could be considered as a favorable outcome.

"Merde au bonheur. Vivez !"

[Dhul Fiqar]

Nihilism isn't necessarily about depression, despair or pessimism - though it does have strong associations with all three. Nihilism can also be quite comforting from a certain philosophical perspective. If nothing matters, which is what it boils down to, you basically live in one big computer simulation. A waking dream if you prefer that analogy.

Think about the implications of nothing being of importance or value, anything you do is completely acceptable and so is any consequence. If you feel that you actually believe that, and very few actually do (which is the elephant in the room in this discussion), then why shouldn't that be very freeing and pleasant indeed?

You can do what ever you like with no moral apprehension, negating the moral and ethical part of the restrictions we put uppon our everyday behaviour, and whatever happens to you as a result is of no consequence anyway - negating the other major factor repressing our behaviour which is fear of retribution.

The only problem is that, in haven taken that philosophical position, you now fit the definition of a sociopath and are a danger to yourself and others. The upside is that doesn't matter.