What Happens After Communism?

[DesertShark]

If this question has already been addressed, my apologies and if you could point me there it'd be much appreciated. I looked around a bit and couldn't find anything similar to it. Now...To the question!

What happens after everyone is on the same page and our ideal society exists everywhere or is well established? Is that it? Does it just end there and we all "live happily ever after"? Or will it be a continuous struggle to keep that society going and/or keep from being taken over?

Once the ideal is reached, what do you think the next ideal will be? Will we strive for anything more?

What will happen?

-DesertShark

[Hessian Peel]

We'll explore space together.

[Vendetta]

Who knows?

(And anyone that says they do is a false prophet)

[Q]

We don't have crystal balls. I guess the only answer you'll get is "post-communism", whatever that means.

[Woland]

Explore, develop, new science, transhumanism, new philosophy and answers, art and human potential. A new age in human history, perhaps?

[Kukulofori]

One of my only regrets is that I probably won't live long enough to find out.

[Post-Something]

If this question has already been addressed, my apologies and if you could point me there it'd be much appreciated. I looked around a bit and couldn't find anything similar to it. Now...To the question!

What happens after everyone is on the same page and our ideal society exists everywhere or is well established? Is that it? Does it just end there and we all "live happily ever after"? Or will it be a continuous struggle to keep that society going and/or keep from being taken over?

Once the ideal is reached, what do you think the next ideal will be? Will we strive for anything more?

What will happen?

-DesertShark

The economic antagonisms prevalent over the course of history will finally cease to be. There won't be another economic system after communism if that's what you mean.

However, if your question is one of human progression, then that is an entirely different issue. Once we have destroyed all forms of exploitation, dominance and oppression in society, we can unlock our full potential as human beings. I'm guessing it will bein the same vein as "minimize work, maximize human exploration" etc, but nobody knows for sure.

But there will be no more "ideal to strive for" I guess, just milestones in human advancement and progress in fields like science and art.

[Tatarin]

We will of course go where no one has gone before.

[nuisance]

The end of ideology!

[Harrycombs]

The proletariat will be defeated by a race of robots with super human strength that we have invented... Or perhaps not.

[AtteroDominatus]

there are always people challenging what is. Though when communism came to being (if humanity is ever willing to put aside differences long enough to accept it) I would guess it would still be a struggle. There will always be people who think differently in a society, and want to change things. I believe even after communism, the world will have its shares of sketchy moments. Nothing is ever certain; however, and I would like to believe I am wrong and that peace and equality would be reached.

[Post-Something]

there are always people challenging what is. Though when communism came to being (if humanity is ever willing to put aside differences long enough to accept it) I would guess it would still be a struggle. There will always be people who think differently in a society, and want to change things. I believe even after communism, the world will have its shares of sketchy moments. Nothing is ever certain; however, and I would like to believe I am wrong and that peace and equality would be reached.

Struggle in what sense? Who would struggle? Class wouldn't exist anymore because everyone would have the same relation to the means of production, what sort of economic struggle could possibly arise?

[Forward Union]

What Happens After Communism?

Artists Depiction:

http://www.iwatchstuff.com/2007/04/12/care-bears.jpg

[AtteroDominatus]

Struggle in what sense? Who would struggle? Class wouldn't exist anymore because everyone would have the same relation to the means of production, what sort of economic struggle could possibly arise?
Struggles always occur. With the environment, maybe? After all, become commu7nsit all you want, I'm not sure all the animals will put things aside. If we continue to eat meat, some may view this as wrong, if we harvest a certain way, another. Even if everyone obtains the same amount and works for a greater sense and is taught the same basis, is it not true that people will have different views of how best to move onward? After all, communism is not a 'the end', in my books. there will always be more, but I'm sure people can overcome it if we work together.

@Leveller:
I think that scares me even more than the current state of the United States economy! :P

[Post-Something]

Struggles always occur. With the environment, maybe? After all, become commu7nsit all you want, I'm not sure all the animals will put things aside. If we continue to eat meat, some may view this as wrong, if we harvest a certain way, another. Even if everyone obtains the same amount and works for a greater sense and is taught the same basis, is it not true that people will have different views of how best to move onward? After all, communism is not a 'the end', in my books. there will always be more, but I'm sure people can overcome it if we work together.

@Leveller:
I think that scares me even more than the current state of the United States economy! :P

The point is there will be no class struggles.

In a communist society, we would have democracy. We would democratically decide what to do concerning the environment. As for animals, this can also be decided democratically, and any vegetarians can do what they want. I don't see where the struggle is if we have real democracy. Nor do I see where there would be anything to overcome if all exploitation is taken care of.

[AtteroDominatus]

The point is there will be no class struggles.

In a communist society, we would have democracy. We would democratically decide what to do concerning the environment. As for animals, this can also be decided democratically, and any vegetarians can do what they want. I don't see where the struggle is if we have real democracy. Nor do I see where there would be anything to overcome if all exploitation is taken care of.
Agreed. But people can get heated over issues, even in a society like that. Plus, I think communism agrees with abortion (at least I heard that from a few friends) and even if i was in such a perfect society of people being equal, nothing could ever get me to agree with it. It comes down to how people's minds work, though you're probably right, I'm just trying to think of things WAY ahead of where they are!

[Post-Something]

Agreed. But people can get heated over issues, even in a society like that. Plus, I think communism agrees with abortion (at least I heard that from a few friends) and even if i was in such a perfect society of people being equal, nothing could ever get me to agree with it. It comes down to how people's minds work, though you're probably right, I'm just trying to think of things WAY ahead of where they are!

Haha, stick around this forum for a bit and you'll be slaying foetuses in their sleep :rolleyes:

[Q]

Given that communism will entail a whole historical period that will probably spand several centuries, what is the point in contemplating what might become after it? What is the point in a fantasy of what might become in centuries?

Mind that I agree that history will never stop. Communism won't "end" it. New material circumstances will compell us to move forward to an even higher form of society. How this exactly works or looks however, is entirely dependant on how communism will actually materialise and what new challenges we might face. Debating that is, to be frank, pointless at this time.

[AngelCity Neo-Stalinist]

This is complex; in the case of one specific country reaching the ultimate state of classessness it could seek to spread the revolution to others around it; there might perhaps be some sort of coalition between the various nations which have acheived communism. At some point neighboring regimes could dissolve border distinctions. Once the ultimate revolution has occured no one can really be sure of what it is exactly that lies ahead. Even Marx wrote little about it. But the total lack of government or any form of popular guidance seems a bit unreal and dreamlike. Because of modernizations such as nuclear and chemical weaponry we should adjust certain definitions. This would not be rank heresy, we have presedent:Lenin developed the idea of democratic centralism and the vangaurd party in order to direct the revolution and this strays from strict pure traditional Marxism. Why not slightly alter what we define as the ultimate classless state? However I am not necesarily promoting this, some sort of arrangement like that purported in council communism or bodies like soviets should be maintained in order to prevent those who would restore inequality. There might still be struggle from those who resist the new order, the restoration of capitalism always lurks around the corner and we must stand guard. Case in point: Deng Xioping, Gorbachav, Yeltsin. Progress is inevitable and so is the revolution, we can only imagine to what great heights the human race could ascend to. I myself am giddy about space travel and colonization. With global cooperation who know what we as humans are truly capable of? Mankind is the master of it's own destiny.

[AngelCity Neo-Stalinist]

Even in a direct democracy there will always be some sort of partisanism, at least insofar as our minds can comprehend now. As has been pointed out conflict might arise over issues but maybe after centuries some sort of consensus might be acheived or, the human mind might have developed into a completely different stage by then and understand circumstances in a completely different fashion, cultural evolution if you will. But this is all theoretical and we should worry more abou the revolution that what comes after communism.

[Os Cangaceiros]

What happens after communism, you say?

This picture of four liberated proletarians enjoying their newfound freedom should give you an idea:

http://specialedandme.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/teletubbies-happypreview.png

[Die Neue Zeit]

I've said this in a dead RevLeft thread before, and I'll say it again: look to plate tectonics to discover the fate of advanced communism. I don't think we'll return to something like feudalism or formal slave society, but I do think some form of economic exploitation of labour will return... albeit after a LENGTHY, multi-generational period of advanced communism.

[Q]

I've said this in a dead RevLeft thread before, and I'll say it again: look to plate tectonics to discover the fate of advanced communism. I don't think we'll return to something like feudalism or formal slave society, but I do think some form of economic exploitation of labour will return... albeit after a LENGTHY, multi-generational period of advanced communism.

On what are you basing this?

[Post-Something]

I've said this in a dead RevLeft thread before, and I'll say it again: look to plate tectonics to discover the fate of advanced communism. I don't think we'll return to something like feudalism or formal slave society, but I do think some form of economic exploitation of labour will return... albeit after a LENGTHY, multi-generational period of advanced communism.

Yeah, because soil moving obviously serves as the single best analogy for an advanced society devoid of economic antagonisms. :rolleyes:

[AtteroDominatus]

Yeah, because soil moving obviously serves as the single best analogy for an advanced society devoid of economic antagonisms. :rolleyes:
What, you never knew that before? :P

[Drace]

We will kill ourselves knowing that our mission is done and we will be able to enter heaven.

[AtteroDominatus]

Suicide is killing, it's a sin, you wouldn't go to heaven. You'd burn and die in hell!
And, I thought communism supported atheism?

[Die Neue Zeit]

Yeah, because soil moving obviously serves as the single best analogy for an advanced society devoid of economic antagonisms. :rolleyes:

What about ecological catastrophes, then?

[Drace]

Suicide is killing, it's a sin, you wouldn't go to heaven. You'd burn and die in hell!
And, I thought communism supported atheism?

Dude...communist heaven, duh.

[Post-Something]

What about ecological catastrophes, then?

I may be missing your point. Mine is that any argument from analogy is one with no philosophical content. Simply because these disaters happen, doesn't mean anything at all about economic and social relations. You can't even draw a parallel between them.

[Robespierre2.0]

We walk up to the defeated capitalists, extend our hand and say, "GG"
When they reach for our hand, we will withdraw it at the last moment and say "SIKE! Nyah nyah, we have the means of production now!"

Actually, things will simply evolve. Perhaps some future philosopher/social scientist observing the conditions of communist society will find something wrong and human society will be divided into opposing camps again, perhaps not.

[mikelepore]

The time since we became "human", as defined in terms of standing upright and enlarged brains: 1 to 2 million years ago.

The time since the beginning of recorded history: the invention of writing, cities, formal governments, private property, social classes: 5,000 years ago.

The time remaining until the sun becomes a red giant and destroys the earth: five billion (billion with a "b") years in the future.

Human history is still in its very early stage, our infancy. The most exciting parts still lie ahead.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Actually, according to scientific estimates the Earth will become uninhabitable in 1 to 2 billion years (the five billion mark is when the sun devours the Earth, not when its size impacts Earth's climate). :p ;)

[Q]

Actually, according to scientific estimates the Earth will become uninhabitable in 1 to 2 billion years (the five billion mark is when the sun devours the Earth, not when its size impacts Earth's climate). :p ;)

By that time we'll probably warp Earth to a more suitable starsystem or just create our own star. Heck, that is assuming we'd still be baryonic lifeforms.

[Incendiarism]

We don't know.

[apathy maybe]

One thing that pisses me off about some people is that they think that "communism" is going to be "the end of history".
It won't.

Of course, what happens next is unknowable. We can't tell the future, but can only make guesses as to what will happen. Sometimes these can be very good guesses.

[AtteroDominatus]

But they only amount to educated guesses in the end. I agree that who knows? I don't believe it's the end by any means. But I simply can't fathom it because a world that finally evolves into communism won't be like the world we know now. there'd be no way to predict exactly where everything would go, as many said. People are so used to things now, and maybe carry over little things in their guessed. People will just have to wait and see!

[DesertShark]

Given that communism will entail a whole historical period that will probably spand several centuries, what is the point in contemplating what might become after it? What is the point in a fantasy of what might become in centuries?
Because its cool and we can think about it. I just imagine everyone kinda standing around after communism takes over, being like "ok, now what?" Plus my ideal wouldn't be communist, it'd be anarchist.

[DesertShark]

This is complex; in the case of one specific country reaching the ultimate state of classessness it could seek to spread the revolution to others around it; there might perhaps be some sort of coalition between the various nations which have acheived communism. At some point neighboring regimes could dissolve border distinctions. Once the ultimate revolution has occured no one can really be sure of what it is exactly that lies ahead. Even Marx wrote little about it. But the total lack of government or any form of popular guidance seems a bit unreal and dreamlike. Because of modernizations such as nuclear and chemical weaponry we should adjust certain definitions. This would not be rank heresy, we have presedent:Lenin developed the idea of democratic centralism and the vangaurd party in order to direct the revolution and this strays from strict pure traditional Marxism. Why not slightly alter what we define as the ultimate classless state? However I am not necesarily promoting this, some sort of arrangement like that purported in council communism or bodies like soviets should be maintained in order to prevent those who would restore inequality. There might still be struggle from those who resist the new order, the restoration of capitalism always lurks around the corner and we must stand guard. Case in point: Deng Xioping, Gorbachav, Yeltsin. Progress is inevitable and so is the revolution, we can only imagine to what great heights the human race could ascend to. I myself am giddy about space travel and colonization. With global cooperation who know what we as humans are truly capable of? Mankind is the master of it's own destiny.
Thanks for thinking about it :]. Space travel would be pretty cool.


But this is all theoretical and we should worry more abou the revolution that what comes after communism.
I think both are important to think about; its good to know what you'd do once you have everything you want.

[DesertShark]

I've said this in a dead RevLeft thread before, and I'll say it again: look to plate tectonics to discover the fate of advanced communism. I don't think we'll return to something like feudalism or formal slave society, but I do think some form of economic exploitation of labour will return... albeit after a LENGTHY, multi-generational period of advanced communism.
The continental shifts will pose a lot of interesting changes. For those of you questioning the relevance of this: These shifts played a huge role in vertebrate movement on to land (among other things). If there hadn't been a lot of shall waters during the Devonian (416-359 mya), strong limbs to wad through these waters wouldn't have been selected for and we probably wouldn't be on land.


We will kill ourselves knowing that our mission is done and we will be able to enter heaven.
:laugh:


We don't know.
Lame... Of course we don't, but its still fun to think about.

[DesertShark]

One thing that pisses me off about some people is that they think that "communism" is going to be "the end of history".
It won't.

Of course, what happens next is unknowable. We can't tell the future, but can only make guesses as to what will happen. Sometimes these can be very good guesses.
Exactly, it won't be the end-all-be-all. Indeed.


But they only amount to educated guesses in the end. I agree that who knows? I don't believe it's the end by any means. But I simply can't fathom it because a world that finally evolves into communism won't be like the world we know now. there'd be no way to predict exactly where everything would go, as many said. People are so used to things now, and maybe carry over little things in their guessed. People will just have to wait and see!
Indeed. But like I said before, its fun to think about.

[ckaihatsu]

We will kill ourselves knowing that our mission is done and we will be able to enter heaven.


Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ha!!!!!! (phew!)



Given that communism will entail a whole historical period that will probably spand several centuries, what is the point in contemplating what might become after it? What is the point in a fantasy of what might become in centuries?

Mind that I agree that history will never stop. Communism won't "end" it. New material circumstances will compell us to move forward to an even higher form of society. How this exactly works or looks however, is entirely dependant on how communism will actually materialise and what new challenges we might face. Debating that is, to be frank, pointless at this time.



The chief advantage that would result from the establishment of Socialism is, undoubtedly, the fact that Socialism would relieve us from that sordid necessity of living for others which, in the present condition of things, presses so hardly upon almost everybody. In fact, scarcely any one at all escapes.


There will be great storages of force for every city, and for every house if required, and this force man will convert into heat, light, or motion, according to his needs. Is this Utopian? A map of the world that does not include Utopia is not worth even glancing at, for it leaves out the one country at which Humanity is always landing. And when Humanity lands there, it looks out, and, seeing a better country, sets sail. Progress is the realisation of Utopias.

http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/hist_texts/wilde_soul.html



there are always people challenging what is. Though when communism came to being (if humanity is ever willing to put aside differences long enough to accept it) I would guess it would still be a struggle. There will always be people who think differently in a society, and want to change things. I believe even after communism, the world will have its shares of sketchy moments. Nothing is ever certain; however, and I would like to believe I am wrong and that peace and equality would be reached.


The biggest problem with using terms (like 'communism') to describe wide-ranging states of societal being is that these terms -- while technically accurate -- may miss the point of what each kind of society means for each individual. Since there are almost 7 billion people on the globe it's impractical in everyday conversation to list out 7 billion interviews on how things are going for each person on earth, and what they think of the current state of humanity.

In other words, capitalism is *both* a horrifying, inhuman economic system and at the same time a relatively progressive, civilizing force for millions.

By having to speak in generalities we miss out on the *range* or *scope* of the economic system being discussed -- certainly *on-the-whole* capitalism is preferable to feudalism, and *on-the-whole* communism is preferable to capitalism, but in both class systems many people have felt dispossessed and bound to soul-crushing work no matter what the official setup is.

Capitalism has unleashed massive productive forces that have benefitted anyone who's had the enlightenment, money, and free time to enjoy oneself, even if for but a brief moment. In this sense more people have had a freedom from material concerns -- but only to limited extents. Sooner or later gravity pulls us back down to having to deal with material concerns all over again.

To the extent that we *don't* have to deal with material concerns we are able to experience some type of limited communism, or "freedom", in the here-and-now, for a limited period of time. Likewise, to the extent that we are able to do research on the Internet we are *freed* from the old-fashioned searching through tomes of physical books at the library -- this, too, is a form of limited communism in the present.

So, ultimately, the question is one of scope -- we need to push through to achieve full freedom from material concerns for *all* of humanity -- true communism.



I've said this in a dead RevLeft thread before, and I'll say it again: look to plate tectonics to discover the fate of advanced communism. I don't think we'll return to something like feudalism or formal slave society, but I do think some form of economic exploitation of labour will return... albeit after a LENGTHY, multi-generational period of advanced communism.


I get what you're saying here, Jacob -- plate tectonics and societal modes of production both have one thing in common: * punctuated equilibrium *. Everyday life seems normal and unchanging for long periods of time until * bang * -- the superstructure somersaults in an instant and introduces a new era of a new normality. People will incorrectly refer to these as "cycles" when in fact they're not -- after each overhaul nothing is quite as it was before, despite some similarities that can be drawn. Really the "cycles" need to be seen as * modalities *, of the natural world, of the mode of production, whatever.

You seem to be indicating, Jacob, that an advanced communist society would undergo a phase change at some distant point and shift into a modality of a mass undertaking of labor. This is certainly possible, and I'm reminded of the Great Pyramids at Giza, which may have been the result of an entire regime, or just may have been the project of a subset of society, of a certain cult -- we may very well experience the same kind of inclination of masses of people, freed from the necessity of *having* to work, deciding *to work* on some mass project that they collectively feel is worthwhile.



In a post-capitalist, post-private-property mode the entire wealth of the world's society would, by definition, be opened up to political debate -- this would be instead of private claims to this-or-that parcel of land, factory, business, or vault. While not everyone would decide to necessarily be actively political in this mode, not everyone would *have* to be. The *political* objective then, as now, would be paramount -- are all assets and resources accounted for and under public administration? In other words, think of it as Wikipedia for the outside world.

In a fairly short span of time every asset and resource *could* be catalogued and administered in common by those who feel most motivated to participate as such. In this way the world would indeed soon have *complete knowledge* of the material world, including what consumers want, because every person on earth could have their own Wikipedia-type page.

I maintain that every person on the planet would just need to provide an updated, linear list of what items they are currently requesting -- a *demand* list, as opposed to a "wishlist" -- that would be fulfilled by available supply according to workers' councils / planning boards.

[AvanteRedGarde]

Good question.

Humans would teach gorilla's sign language. Once spread through wilderness, the animaletarian wise rise up, defeating the humalist system once and for all. Just kidding.

I think struggle would go on. Just because there is a class less society does mean people wouldn't retain some degree of political individualism, i.e. which direction society woshould gould turn. This indeed would ential some form of struggle, albeit maybe not necessarily antagonistic struggle.

I myself am not in favor of the corpratist "star trek" version of communism or "post communism." Rather, I think best would be a devolution down to a more advanced form of primitive communism, involving the resolving the contradiction between the natural environment and human activity (i.e. ecological harmony) and the decentralizing of power and authority.

[Eros]

Plus my ideal wouldn't be communist, it'd be anarchist.

The difference between the two being what exactly?

[ckaihatsu]

Good question.

Humans would teach gorilla's sign language. Once spread through wilderness, the animaletarian wise rise up, defeating the humalist system once and for all. Just kidding.


Don't kid. One could make a gaia-type argument for the destiny of humanity being one of first liberating itself from a nature-bound existence, and then doing the same for the rest of the animal world.

Maybe that's why evolution / natural selection has progressed in the direction it has, towards greater self- and world-awareness, so that all creatures would eventually be bestowed with greater and greater material choices, either from within or without.



Rather, I think best would be a devolution down to a more advanced form of primitive communism, involving the resolving the contradiction between the natural environment and human activity (i.e. ecological harmony) and the decentralizing of power and authority.


Uh, yeah, I just said that.... = )