KKE anounces generalstrike in greece in reaction to police murder

[Honggweilo]

Statement of the Communist Youth of Greece


The obvious and «hidden» mechanisms of repression will finally fail..

http://www.kne.gr/assets/images/poreia2.jpg

We are greeting the thousands of young men and women, workers, schools and university students who participated and demonstrated in huge blocks of the CPG (KKE)and KNE , stating their outrage for the cold-blooded murder of 15 year old boy named Alexander and the intensity of state repression.

We express our condemnation to all the Greek people and youth an organized plan of intimidation , creation of images of chaos, arsons, disasters that have nothing to do with the spontaneous outbursts of anger among young people. We have to face a well trained, mechanism well-known to the state services and the parties of the plutocracy. The effort to hit and disband the rally of the KKE and KNE in the center of Athens, has failed.

We stress the necessity all the political youth wings to take a clear position condemning this mechanism. This is designed in order to be taken new measures of repression against the labor movement. These well-known provocateurs had as an umbrella the block of SYRIZA throughout the whole demonstration. Such forces that are caressing provocateurs and fish in dirty water are contributing to the objective of struggling youth and labour movement.

The only appropriate answer is people and youth not to hang their heads .Now more than ever a response is necessary by the organized movement, self guarded, politicized movement against the power of monopolies and imperialism.

-Everybody today and tomorrow will participate in the organized demonstrations of the Coordinative Body of Struggling Unions of Schools in all cities of Greece!

-Everyone to participate in the all worker’s strike on Wednesday !

The obvious and «hidden» mechanisms of repression will fail.
Athens, 8-12-2008

The Press Office of the CC of KNEhttp://inter.kke.gr/
http://www.kne.gr/english.html

[F9]

Not only kke announced the strike!
and the strike was organized before the murdering of the kid, its not a reaction to it!

[Kukulofori]

This is why we don't trust political parties.

What's Greek for comrade?

[F9]

this is why we don't trust political parties.

What's greek for comrade?

σύντροφε

[Q]

Wow, I'm impressed with this shining example of working class solidarity :cool:

[Kukulofori]

How do you pronounce that? soon-troe-foe?

[ernie]

Not only kke announced the strike!
and the strike was organized before the murdering of the kid, its not a reaction to it!
I believe that's what we call opportunism :p.

[F9]

How do you pronounce that? soon-troe-foe?

that would be a little hard!
sintrofe could help you better?
sin as you pronounce the sin from maths, trofe as you raed it, however the e dont takes place as is pronounced in the abc but as it is pronounced in the word "the"!

[Tower of Bebel]

Wow, I'm impressed with this shining example of working class solidarity :cool:
Could be, but I'm critical. What kind of working class solidarity are we faced with? What does it do and what is it's potential?

The adoption of the mass strike by ways of forcing an authoritarian government to step down or give in is sometimes seen as a step forward; one in terms of developing the consciousness of the working class. But what if the government is replaced by a new one, without any gains in regard to the self-organization of the working class? Then the working class has gained nothing, because the consciousness gained from the movement dies out together with the movement.

[Coggeh]

Could be, but I'm critical. What kind of working class solidarity are we faced with? What does it do and what is it's potential?

The adoption of the mass strike by ways of forcing an authoritarian government to step down or give in is sometimes seen as a step forward; one in terms of developing the consciousness of the working class. But what if the government is replaced by a new one, without any gains in regard to the self-organization of the working class? Then the working class has gained nothing, and the consciousness gained from the movement dies out together with the movement.
Exactly my feeling too , I think the CP and Syriza really need to work hard as to portray the recent neo-liberal reforms , unemployment , corruption , inequality and cutbacks in Greece as something that would happen under both of the major ruling parties , they possess a great opportunity and must try and work as hard as possible with unions and activists to formulate a united left to which people can actively turn to in the coming days and weeks ahead .



Looks like we have the first hurdle of the recession for socialists...

[RaiseYourVoice]

I believe that's what we call opportunism :p.
If you have no idea what a term means, dont use it. This is a major topic for the upcoming strike, no matter wether the strike was planned before or not. Also it makes me laugh that some kid on the internet make arrogant comments about a mass working class movement and a party which gained 8% last election. I would be excited to see your list of achievement (or for that matter your organisations)


Also directed at the other two, i dont think you actually have to tell the KKE that the socialist party isnt their next ally. Surely the socialist party coming to power could calme the protests, but isnt that the case with any fight? The ruling class ALWAYS tries to direct protests their ways, does that mean we shouldnt protest any more? Strikes, school walkouts, mass protests (all which is happening now) in solidarity with those who choose other methods of fighting is actually the best thing that can happen. The alternative would be the people distancing them from the rioters, giving the government the chance to crack down on the movement and probably kill a lot more than it already has.

[rebelworker]

I think the point he was making is that the Communist Party is being opportunist, like they were calling the strike.

[Herman]

I think the point he was making is that the Communist Party is being opportunist, like they were calling the strike.

Why is it opportunist to call a strike, regardless if it was planned before or after?

[manic expression]

For crying out loud, the KKE, a major communist party with a lot of working-class support throughout the country, just announced a general strike in response to police brutality...and people here are complaining. Unreal.

Anyway, this is simply an incredible development and I fully support our comrades in the KKE. They have so often set an example in terms of organization, and they are doing so again with this action. International working-class mobilization has increased so much over just the past few days, not to mention the gains made in Nepal and elsewhere; there's a lot of work we have to do, but by now it's undeniable that comrades around the world are making progress.

[F9]

For crying out loud, the KKE, a major communist party with a lot of working-class support throughout the country, just announced a general strike in response to police brutality...and people here are complaining. Unreal.

No!The general strike was decide a long time ago, before the killing of the child!!The strike had nothing to do with police brutality!Now it has, but back then when it was decided it didnt!
And for one more time, it wasnt kke who decided the strike but ALL workers, and unions!!kke its just trying to get the "lights" for itself only, as usually!
The general strike ISNT a kke general strike, that wouldnt make it a general strike!

Fuserg9:star:

[manic expression]

No!The general strike was decide a long time ago, before the killing of the child!!The strike had nothing to do with police brutality!Now it has, but back then when it was decided it didnt!
And for one more time, it wasnt kke who decided the strike but ALL workers, and unions!!kke its just trying to get the "lights" for itself only, as usually!
The general strike ISNT a kke general strike, that wouldnt make it a general strike!

Fuserg9:star:

That's not the point, the KKE's involvement is very important, as it is quite a strong party and has been furthering the struggle against capitalism for a long time. The KKE isn't trying to hog the spotlight, it's trying to support the struggle of the working class, and for that it should be congratulated, not condemned. What, would you rather the KKE NOT endorse the strike? People who have already decided that they don't like communist parties will find any reason to complain about them, and this thread is a perfect example of that.

And yes, it seems you're right about it not being a response to the killing, I read the original message too hastily.

And by the way, no one has answered Herman's point. How is this possibly opportunist?

[Ar-evolution-ab]

How do you pronounce that? soon-troe-foe?
sin- as in "seen"
trof- exactly how it's read
e- like it is read in "bed"

[F9]

That's not the point, the KKE's involvement is very important, as it is quite a strong party and has been furthering the struggle against capitalism for a long time. The KKE isn't trying to hog the spotlight, it's trying to support the struggle of the working class, and for that it should be congratulated, not condemned. What, would you rather the KKE NOT endorse the strike? People who have already decided that they don't like communist parties will find any reason to complain about them, and this thread is a perfect example of that.

And yes, it seems you're right about it not being a response to the killing, I read the original message too hastily.

And by the way, no one has answered Herman's point. How is this possibly opportunist?

how it it trying to support the struggle when it gets announcements that they only organized the strike which is a big lie?Not every worker in greece is kke, 5% could be much for them!!Congratulate them for what? trying by lies giving workers a different point of view?Yeah lets endorse the false sayings that divide workers, yeah i congratulate them!:rolleyes:I dont give a fuck about communist parties, a lot of times things with m-l parties came up, and i usually dont jump in such threads, but here i am telling you what the kke is doing falsy and in the end they are not a real communist party, they are just some authority seeking scumbags, which they care only for their own good!

[manic expression]

Where, exactly, did they lie? They said they greeted the strikers, they never claimed everyone out there was KKE, not by a long shot. In fact, your argument is purely putting words in other people's mouths and then engaging in name-calling. They've done more for the struggle against capitalism than most other groups in Europe for the past few decades, and yet you call them "scumbags"? Please.

And again, how is this opportunist? No one has illustrated this.

[ernie]

If you have no idea what a term means, dont use it. This is a major topic for the upcoming strike, no matter wether the strike was planned before or not.
What matters is that they are trying to use this kid's death to make electoral gains. That's good old electoral opportunism, and it's not communist at all. That's why they "condemn" this "mechanism of intimidation and chaos"; it's not useful to get votes.

Not that I'm surprised they would do this. What else could you expect from a "communist" organization that participates in bourgeois elections?


Also it makes me laugh that some kid on the internet
Laugh all you want. I am not even close to being a kid, which means that you have no idea what "a kid" would say. What's more telling is that you obviously think calling somebody a kid is an insult. That's called ageism, and it's a form of discrimination usually employed by people who think they know better because they're old. It's bullshit.

And what the fuck does it matter that I'm "on the internet"?


make arrogant comments about a mass working class movement and a party which gained 8% last election. I would be excited to see your list of achievement (or for that matter your organisations)

I don't recall talking about any movement. But since you bring it up, I'll say that I am quite excited about what's going on in Greece right now. It's my view that the rioters are offering real resistance to capitalism, if only in a limited way. I hope this movement grows and quickly.

My comment about opportunism was directed at the party and their leaders. And however many votes it got in whichever election is meaningless...for communists, anyway. To reformists, that's all that matters.


The ruling class ALWAYS tries to direct protests their ways, does that mean we shouldnt protest any more? Strikes, school walkouts, mass protests (all which is happening now) in solidarity with those who choose other methods of fighting is actually the best thing that can happen.
It's the KKE who is condemning these riots. Is that what you call solidarity?

[Enragé]

y en la reteguardia las cobardes estalinistas preparan la traicion

guard your backs greek comrades!

[Wanted Man]

If you have no idea what a term means, dont use it. This is a major topic for the upcoming strike, no matter wether the strike was planned before or not. Also it makes me laugh that some kid on the internet make arrogant comments about a mass working class movement and a party which gained 8% last election. I would be excited to see your list of achievement (or for that matter your organisations)


Also directed at the other two, i dont think you actually have to tell the KKE that the socialist party isnt their next ally. Surely the socialist party coming to power could calme the protests, but isnt that the case with any fight? The ruling class ALWAYS tries to direct protests their ways, does that mean we shouldnt protest any more? Strikes, school walkouts, mass protests (all which is happening now) in solidarity with those who choose other methods of fighting is actually the best thing that can happen. The alternative would be the people distancing them from the rioters, giving the government the chance to crack down on the movement and probably kill a lot more than it already has.


For crying out loud, the KKE, a major communist party with a lot of working-class support throughout the country, just announced a general strike in response to police brutality...and people here are complaining. Unreal.

Anyway, this is simply an incredible development and I fully support our comrades in the KKE. They have so often set an example in terms of organization, and they are doing so again with this action. International working-class mobilization has increased so much over just the past few days, not to mention the gains made in Nepal and elsewhere; there's a lot of work we have to do, but by now it's undeniable that comrades around the world are making progress.
Q.F.T.


y en la reteguardia las cobardes estalinistas preparan la traicion

guard your backs greek comrades!
Ooh, Spanish quotes. :rolleyes: The stalinist cowards are preparing treason by organising mass meetings and supporting general strikes. :rolleyes: Guard your backs, comrades, by attacking communist rallies, no doubt. :rolleyes:

This is fucking stupid. I come back from a good solidarity demo, and all I see on RevLeft is more sectarian shit. Fucking christ. Wherever mass action occurs, you say: "Look, it's the stalinist cowards at the back, preparing treason!" Typical. Worse yet, there are annoying Achmed the Dead Terrorist ringtones on tv. I need some scotch.

[Mindtoaster]

The reactions you all are giving to this announcement are just fucking ridiculous.

A party that takes 8% of the country's vote has joined in the strikes and protests. Honestly right now you shouldn't give a fuck about how they line up with your ideology.

[manic expression]

What matters is that they are trying to use this kid's death to make electoral gains. That's good old electoral opportunism, and it's not communist at all. That's why they "condemn" this "mechanism of intimidation and chaos"; it's not useful to get votes.

Do you have any reason to believe the KKE is doing what they're doing for the intentions you stated, or did you just copy-and-paste empty anarchist slogans? It's funny how certain people just decide something must be true because it fits their worldview.


Not that I'm surprised they would do this. What else could you expect from a "communist" organization that participates in bourgeois elections?

You mean like the Bolsheviks? Every serious working-class party engages in electoral campaigns, it's a very useful tool for reaching a wide audience and spreading one's message. Pulling the "bourgeois elections" card is the hallmark of infantile politics.


Laugh all you want. I am not even close to being a kid, which means that you have no idea what "a kid" would say. What's more telling is that you obviously think calling somebody a kid is an insult. That's called ageism, and it's a form of discrimination usually employed by people who think they know better because they're old. It's bullshit.

So I take it you don't want to tell us the wonderful things YOUR organization has accomplished. Secondly, calling someone a kid implies immaturity, that's the commonly accepted connotation. Ageism? Drop the Peggy McIntosh-inspired indignation and deal with the issue.


And what the fuck does it matter that I'm "on the internet"?

Well, you had a clear opportunity to prove to us all that you are involved in socialist agitation in the real world, but you didn't. Regardless, the problem is that you're trash-talking a widely supported revolutionary party from behind a keyboard. If you don't see the issue with that, try harder.


I don't recall talking about any movement. But since you bring it up, I'll say that I am quite excited about what's going on in Greece right now. It's my view that the rioters are offering real resistance to capitalism, if only in a limited way. I hope this movement grows and quickly.

You're so excited about Greece that you went out of your way to slander the most widely-supported revolutionary organization in Greece (perhaps Europe even)...for promoting a general strike. Funny sort of excitement you got there.


My comment about opportunism was directed at the party and their leaders. And however many votes it got in whichever election is meaningless...for communists, anyway. To reformists, that's all that matters.

:lol: And you're mad about being called a kid with a keyboard. Yeah, sure, everyone who runs in elections is obviously reformist...Infoshop told me so!

But wait...how are we supposed to only care about votes when we're also clearly planning cowardly treason? More importantly, do the Spanish lessons come before or after said cowardly treason? The wonders of anti-communist wisdom never cease to amaze.


It's the KKE who is condemning these riots. Is that what you call solidarity?

In your mind, everything wearing a ski mask deserves the utmost solidarity. Working-class organizations? Not so much.

[RaiseYourVoice]

This is fucking stupid. I come back from a good solidarity demo, and all I see on RevLeft is more sectarian shit. Fucking christ. Wherever mass action occurs, you say: "Look, it's the stalinist cowards at the back, preparing treason!" Typical.100% agree, i wonder why i even respond to this shit. Tomorrow we have a solidarity demonstration in my city, organised by the german sister organisation of the KNE, supported by anarchists, trotskists, die linke, the greek community and everyone else who calls themselves leftist. But sure i guess here also the anarchists should distance themselves from the others, the trots should shoot the anarchists and revolt against us and we should try to purge everyone else! that would totally make sense.

[Bilan]

This is big.

[Devrim]

It is quite amusing that the biggest defender of the Stalinists is a Trotskyist. It is not surprising that he is an American one though. Anybody who had been involved in the class struggle in countries where the Communist Parties had deep roots in the working class, would know quite clearly that these are bourgeois parties, which will ultimately act against this struggle.

Members of the CP's will grass workers up to the police, denounce people struggling as provocators and agitators, and even physically act to prevent workers who try to extend the struggle. All of these things I have seen with my own eyes. It would be very foolish to assume that the Greek Party is any different.

I am sure that at the moment they are doing their best to create divisions between the majority of the working class, and the youth on the streets, building on people's worst fears about 'anarchy' and chaos.

This is a taste of the sort of rhetoric that we can expect:


The continuous organized and co-ordinated riots that we witness parallel to the huge mobilizations and protests have little to do with spontaneous expression of anger and rage, and more and more take the form of open provocations against the growing wave of protest.

Youth in the streets will continue to be demonised by the CP. They will attempt with all their might to prevent workers and radical youth in the streets from making links.

What would a revolutionary party have done? In my opinion, it would have put its efforts into organising immediate solidarity strikes with young people in the street emphasising that the problems faced by workers and youth are related.

Are the anarchists a 'revolutionary' party? No, for all their combativity, they too are lacking in perspective. Only the working class is capable of launching a revolutionary struggle, riots on their own will just burn themselves out. The anarchists needed to go to large factories and workplaces to discuss with workers, and call on them to join the struggle. In this, as far as I know, they have failed.

What will happen to the struggle? Although I see that it is still possible that the working class could become an active component of this struggle I see it as unlikely. What it would really take is probably another Police outrage today to convince workers to continue the strike, and of course a militant minority who are prepared to initiate and spread the struggle. Without that workers will go back to work, and eventually the riots will peter out over the next week.

Devrim

[ernie]

Do you have any reason to believe the KKE is doing what they're doing for the intentions you stated, or did you just copy-and-paste empty anarchist slogans? It's funny how certain people just decide something must be true because it fits their worldview.
You mean besides the fact that they're reformist?


You mean like the Bolsheviks? Every serious working-class party engages in electoral campaigns, it's a very useful tool for reaching a wide audience and spreading one's message. Pulling the "bourgeois elections" card is the hallmark of infantile politics.
No, it's a very useful tool to get people in office. I think it's idealist to think that parties that participate in elections won't become reformist sooner or later. The Bolsheviks existed 100 years ago. They had reason to believe that strategy would lead to revolutionary gains. We know what happens to those parties now.


Secondly, calling someone a kid implies immaturity, that's the commonly accepted connotation. Ageism? Drop the Peggy McIntosh-inspired indignation and deal with the issue.
That's the commonly accepted connotation because obedience to elders seen as something desirable. As I said, I think it's bullshit.


Well, you had a clear opportunity to prove to us all that you are involved in socialist agitation in the real world, but you didn't.
I didn't because I don't see how it's relevant to this discussion.


Regardless, the problem is that you're trash-talking a widely supported revolutionary party from behind a keyboard. If you don't see the issue with that, try harder.
Trash-talking? I gave my opinion on the actions of a "communist" party on a leftist message board. I'm behind a keyboard because that's what I use to type on my computer.


You're so excited about Greece that you went out of your way to slander the most widely-supported revolutionary organization in Greece (perhaps Europe even)...for promoting a general strike. Funny sort of excitement you got there.
No. I criticized a "communist" party -- which I don't think is very revolutionary -- for demonizing the rioters for what I believe to be perceived electoral gains.

I repeat, if you think I am wrong about my premise (that the KKE is using this to get more votes in the next elections), feel free to argue against it. But then you actually have to do that. Calling people "kids behind keyboards" doesn't count.


:lol: And you're mad about being called a kid with a keyboard. Yeah, sure, everyone who runs in elections is obviously reformist...Infoshop told me so!
I'm not mad...you're the one using personal attacks. And, yeah, if you run in elections, you'll eventually turn into a reformist. Marxism told me so.


But wait...how are we supposed to only care about votes when we're also clearly planning cowardly treason? More importantly, do the Spanish lessons come before or after said cowardly treason? The wonders of anti-communist wisdom never cease to amaze.
I wasn't the one who said anything about treason. All I said was that the KKE was using the anger people are feeling now for electoral gains. Nobody has disputed this yet. All I hear is that "they got 8% of the vote" or that "they're really good at organizing".


In your mind, everything wearing a ski mask deserves the utmost solidarity. Working-class organizations? Not so much.
No. Everyone resisting capitalism deserves solidarity. And you've failed to show that the KKE is a working-class and revolutionary organization.

[Sasha]

^ hear hear, excelent reply, my thoughts exactly.

[ernie]

Are the anarchists a 'revolutionary' party? No, for all their combativity, they too are lacking in perspective. Only the working class is capable of launching a revolutionary struggle, riots on their own will just burn themselves out. The anarchists needed to go to large factories and workplaces to discuss with workers, and call on them to join the struggle. In this, as far as I know, they have failed.
I tend to agree with you here, except for the part where you say they aren't revolutionary. There isn't only one way to be revolutionary. I think politically-charged riots in and of themselves can be revolutionary, even if they don't directly lead to a revolution.


What will happen to the struggle? Although I see that it is still possible that the working class could become an active component of this struggle I see it as unlikely. What it would really take is probably another Police outrage today to convince workers to continue the strike, and of course a militant minority who are prepared to initiate and spread the struggle. Without that workers will go back to work, and eventually the riots will peter out over the next week.
I'm afraid you're correct here, although I hope not. But are you saying that nothing was accomplished by all this?

[NickHs]

KKE is the only party here in Greece that clearly states its revolutionary ideology and class - oriented struggle. They are not reformists! Reformist is the SYRIZA who seeks to "touch the bankers' hearts". Jesus!
It is the only party not associated with the racist Macedonia bullshit, the only party that workers of ALL ages endorse. No one is present at schools but KNE. I just came back from the manifestation. It was incredible! We happened to pass by some poor areas and there were immigrants looking at us from the windows and cheering.
Every school in Greece is closed by the students' will. Spontaneous manifestations were held outside police stations.
That's the kind of struggle KKE supports. It clearly states that the enemy is capitalism itself, but we have to be organized, class - oriented and well guarded.
SYRIZA organizes protests together with the ones that attack small property. I've seen them with my own eyes: No one is trying to stop them! They are guilty too, for miss-orienting the struggle.

[Wanted Man]

Exactly, Nick. It's weird that people are attacking the KKE because they criticised the SYRIZA. The SYRIZA are the reformists, yet now they're suddenly making a lot of 'radical' noise. What they support in reality is the diversion of the struggle away from big capital and away from big government, towards the windows of small shopkeepers. If they don't see the link with the years-long struggle against capitalism, and are just being populist, why are the communists the bad guys for criticising this?

But hey, maybe some American who has read one 5-paragraph article can go tell our Greek comrade that what he saw with his own eyes is 'wrong'.

[ernie]

Exactly, Nick. It's weird that people are attacking the KKE because they criticised the SYRIZA. The SYRIZA are the reformists, yet now they're suddenly making a lot of 'radical' noise. What they support in reality is the diversion of the struggle away from big capital and away from big government, towards the windows of small shopkeepers. If they don't see the link with the years-long struggle against capitalism, and are just being populist, why are the communists the bad guys for criticising this?
It seems to me the KKE is criticizing anybody rioting, and calling everybody to condemn these actions. Why would a revolutionary organization do this?


But hey, maybe some American who has read one 5-paragraph article can go tell our Greek comrade that what he saw with his own eyes is 'wrong'.
I see. I didn't realize only Greek (and Dutch, apparently) people can comment on this.

And do you really think the rejection of "communist" parties comes from reading this article or articles on infoshop? It doesn't. At least in my case, it comes from experience with them. From bitter disappointment with dealing with opportunist motherfuckers (who, by the way, always talk about "organized and class-oriented struggle"). And from the experience of relatives and friends and countless other comrades who have felt the same way. You can't blame us for being extremely skeptical about parties who want to win elections.

[Revy]

How are SYRIZA "reformists"? Not hearsay , provide some evidence.

[Wanted Man]

It seems to me the KKE is criticizing anybody rioting, and calling everybody to condemn these actions. Why would a revolutionary organization do this?
"It seems"? Yeah, a lot of things "seem". Read a bit harder to understand their position. They support the mass manifestations of tens of thousands of people, and they say that this is an outburst justified rage. However, they condemn that a small minority of these people are directing all the anger at some small shops, communist rallies, etc., and away from big capital. Especially considering that the SYRIZA are opportunistically supporting this.



I see. I didn't realize only Greek (and Dutch, apparently) people can comment on this.
Don't be dense. It's just a fact that someone who witnesses it with his own eyes is more qualified to comment than someone who misinterprets some short statement in order to prove some kind of point.


And do you really think the rejection of "communist" parties comes from reading this article or articles on infoshop? It doesn't. At least in my case, it comes from experience with them. From bitter disappointment with dealing with opportunist motherfuckers (who, by the way, always talk about "organized and class-oriented struggle"). And from the experience of relatives and friends and countless other comrades who have felt the same way. You can't blame us for being extremely skeptical about parties who want to win elections.
I don't know about your experience with communist parties (CPUSA?). Anyway, these experiences don't apply universally. The people calling for class struggle (nice use of scare quotes there :rolleyes:) are certainly not the opportunists here. What's really opportunist is the people who support the misleading of anger away from big capital, away from class struggle, etc.

[ernie]

"It seems"? Yeah, a lot of things "seem". Read a bit harder to understand their position.
As much as I try, I can't read anything revolutionary out of this:


The continuous organized and co-ordinated riots that we witness parallel to the huge mobilizations and protests have little to do with spontaneous expression of anger and rage, and more and more take the form of open provocations against the growing wave of protest. In any case the way to react does not lie in retaliatory riots. On the contrary such events are quite accommodating for those that want to impose fear and intimidation to the people, who are trying to prevent the emergence of an organized and mighty mass movement that will be able to to sweep not only the ND and any other anti-peoples’ government, and pave the way for a real change at the level of the power in favour of the people.
This is exactly the kind of bullshit reformist always say.


They support the mass manifestations of tens of thousands of people, and they say that this is an outburst justified rage. However, they condemn that a small minority of these people are directing all the anger at some small shops, communist rallies, etc., and away from big capital. Especially considering that the SYRIZA are opportunistically supporting this.
Reading their own statements (like the one above) and from other experiences, I come to the conclusion they only support these manifestations if they are the ones organizing them.


Don't be dense. It's just a fact that someone who witnesses it with his own eyes is more qualified to comment than someone who misinterprets some short statement in order to prove some kind of point.
Come now. What could I possibly have to gain by "proving" that the KKE is a reformist party? I hope I'm wrong, and that the are a truly revolutionary organization. I don't think that's the case, though.



Anyway, these experiences don't apply universally.
I don't know what you mean by universally. What I do know is that parties that participate in elections have a marked tendency to appeal to opportunist pricks. Worse: these people usually end up leading these parties. Again, it may not be the case here, but it would be an outlier.


The people calling for class struggle (nice use of scare quotes there :rolleyes:) are certainly not the opportunists here.
(I put it in quotes to try to convey that the people I was referring to were full of shit.)

I hope you're right. (At least you're making an attempt to defend the KKE's position with facts -- unlike others here...) We'll have to see how the events turn out to make a more informed conclusion.

[manic expression]

It is quite amusing that the biggest defender of the Stalinists is a Trotskyist. It is not surprising that he is an American one though. Anybody who had been involved in the class struggle in countries where the Communist Parties had deep roots in the working class, would know quite clearly that these are bourgeois parties, which will ultimately act against this struggle.

And it is quite typical to see an ultra-left the defender of ultra-sectarianism. It simply confirms everything we know about this small, marginalized and worthless puritan sect.

I may defend some of Trotsky's analyses on the USSR, but that doesn't mean I can't see when a group is legitimately working for the interests of the workers. The KKE is, much like other "Stalinist" parties, such as those dirty "Stalinists" who fought apartheid in South Africa, or those horrible "Stalinists" who overthrew the fascists in Portugal; my criterion for support is not as sectarian as you would hope. What have the ultra-lefts done? Nothing. Exactly.

Please enlighten us as to these communist parties with "deep roots", for they seem to be keeping it a secret.


Members of the CP's will grass workers up to the police, denounce people struggling as provocators and agitators, and even physically act to prevent workers who try to extend the struggle. All of these things I have seen with my own eyes. It would be very foolish to assume that the Greek Party is any different.

I am sure that at the moment they are doing their best to create divisions between the majority of the working class, and the youth on the streets, building on people's worst fears about 'anarchy' and chaos.

BS. You can be "sure" all you want, in the end it's just pure paranoia from a puritan. Please show some evidence or stop slandering working-class organizations. Your empty speculation is only that and nothing more.

[Devrim]

I tend to agree with you here, except for the part where you say they aren't revolutionary. There isn't only one way to be revolutionary. I think politically-charged riots in and of themselves can be revolutionary, even if they don't directly lead to a revolution.

Maybe I made a mistake there. I put the inverted commas around 'revolutionary' and not 'revolutionary party'. I don't think though that you can be a revolutionary as an individual. I think that it is more part of a collectivity.

I think that being revolutionary is something more that being combative. I think it requires more than that. It requires organisation, theory, perspectives, and strategy.

I am certainly not condemning young people out there fighting the polices on the streets. I will leave that job to the Stalinists and the bourgeois media. However, there are issues that have to be raised, and to say that there are better ways to advance the movement than this does not mean that you are joining with all those attacking these courageous young people.

When you write that 'There isn't only one way to be revolutionary', I think we disagree. Yes of course there are different tactics, but we have to affirm that the working class is the revolutionary class. Communism will be created by the vast mass of the working class or not at all, and it will require the active involvement of the majority of the working class.

Neither vanguard parties nor teenagers throwing stones at police in the streets can substitute for this.



I'm afraid you're correct here, although I hope not. But are you saying that nothing was accomplished by all this?

I don't think that 'nothing was accomplished' at all. I think that it is a massively important moment for all workers, and all those who call themselves revolutionaries. It is a part in the international resurgence of class confidence, and there are important lessons to be drawn for all workers.

These are not specific things about the Greek situation. At the time of the general strikes in Greece earlier this year, we also had general strikes over exactly the same issues in our country as have many other countries.

And the questions are the same as in Greece, how can workers build their struggles, how can they resist the sabotage of the unions and the bourgeois left parties (within which I include the KKE), how can youth link up with workers, Do street fights with the police show the way forward.

In the short term, how far workers and youth in Greece can resist state attacks, be they those management against working conditions, or policemen against people on the street, and in the long term the extent to which workers and communists both in Greece and internationally can assimilate these lessons will really show what has been accomplished here.

Devrim

[Devrim]

BS. You can be "sure" all you want, in the end it's just pure paranoia from a puritan. Please show some evidence or stop slandering working-class organizations. Your empty speculation is only that and nothing more.

If you go back to what I wrote I posted an example in the next sentence. I will repost it though;


The continuous organized and co-ordinated riots that we witness parallel to the huge mobilizations and protests have little to do with spontaneous expression of anger and rage, and more and more take the form of open provocations against the growing wave of protest.Please explain what this is apart from a clear attempt to stop workers forming links with youth who are fighting on the streets.

Then again don't bother. When we look the way you analyse the Stalinist parties and the situation, it is very clear that you have very little if nothing to add to any discussion about how to move forward.

Devrim

[manic expression]

You mean besides the fact that they're reformist?

Just like the Bolsheviks, right? Keep slandering people, though, don't let the facts get in your way.


No, it's a very useful tool to get people in office. I think it's idealist to think that parties that participate in elections won't become reformist sooner or later. The Bolsheviks existed 100 years ago. They had reason to believe that strategy would lead to revolutionary gains. We know what happens to those parties now.

No, it's not idealist to think that, just immature and vapid. To be more specific, it's simply a tautology: all parties which run in elections are reformist, and thus all reformist parties run in elections. Further, it is a very useful propaganda platform, as political consciousness is much higher during election seasons than it would be otherwise; communists utilize this in order to spread their message instead of foolishly hoping the workers will somehow come to them. That's what the KKE does, because it's correct and effective and proven by history.

The Bolsheviks had no idea what the future held when they participated in electoral campaigns. Hell, they even ran in elections before the first revolution in 1917 (when there was still a Tsar!). Don't side-step history: just about every serious revolutionary party has, when possible, participated in electoral politics. Then as now.


That's the commonly accepted connotation because obedience to elders seen as something desirable. As I said, I think it's bullshit.

No, it's because little kids usually know little about the world and act in immature ways. It's not bad, it's just the way it is. They need to be taught by tutorship and experience, as do unsophisticated leftists.


I didn't because I don't see how it's relevant to this discussion.

If you trash-talk a party supporting mass demonstrations and playing a key role in a general strike, AT LEAST have something to show for yourself. It would certainly give your position more validity, instead of being some random person with a keyboard.


Trash-talking? I gave my opinion on the actions of a "communist" party on a leftist message board. I'm behind a keyboard because that's what I use to type on my computer.

Yeah, but the difference is that since you didn't provide any info on what YOU do in the real world, we are left to the conclusion that you're ONLY behind a keyboard. That's the problem here.


No. I criticized a "communist" party -- which I don't think is very revolutionary -- for demonizing the rioters for what I believe to be perceived electoral gains.

The minority of demonstrators are engaging in counterproductive nonsense. It didn't work in Seattle and it's not going to work here. The KKE is more than reasonable in criticizing that minority while supporting the vast majority, of which they are a part of.


I repeat, if you think I am wrong about my premise (that the KKE is using this to get more votes in the next elections), feel free to argue against it. But then you actually have to do that. Calling people "kids behind keyboards" doesn't count.

I asked you for actual evidence to back up your claims. You haven't shown anything. As of now, I have nothing to argue against.



I'm not mad...you're the one using personal attacks. And, yeah, if you run in elections, you'll eventually turn into a reformist. Marxism told me so.

Really? Please show us where Marx said working-class parties which run in elections will inevitably turn reformist.


I wasn't the one who said anything about treason. All I said was that the KKE was using the anger people are feeling now for electoral gains. Nobody has disputed this yet. All I hear is that "they got 8% of the vote" or that "they're really good at organizing".

I was referring to Sen~or NewKindOfSoldier, not to you.

And the KKE has a great deal of support within the working class, something you can't say for the window-breaking students you're so fond of.



No. Everyone resisting capitalism deserves solidarity. And you've failed to show that the KKE is a working-class and revolutionary organization.

Everyone who knows the first thing about the European left knows the KKE is consistently one of the most revolutionary organizations around. Their actions right now prove this: they're promoting working-class mobilization in response to capitalist repression. That's exactly what you're trying to slander, and it is quite ridiculous.

[ernie]

I think that being revolutionary is something more that being combative. I think it requires more than that. It requires organisation, theory, perspectives, and strategy.
But these rioters aren't only being combative. I mean, they are attacking agents of the state and destroying buildings symbolic of the ruling class (like banks), and they're doing it in the name of anarchism. That is, they aren't randomly braking shit for no reason. To me, this reflects that they do have a very primitive grasp on Marxism (even if they don't call it that). In times so reactionary as these, I happily consider them revolutionaries. At the very least, I'd say they have a revolutionary attitude.


When you write that 'There isn't only one way to be revolutionary', I think we disagree. Yes of course there are different tactics,
That's sort of what I meant. That is, organizing workers isn't the only revolutionary activity.


but we have to affirm that the working class is the revolutionary class. Communism will be created by the vast mass of the working class or not at all, and it will require the active involvement of the majority of the working class.
Not only the majority, but the overwhelming majority.

[NickHs]

Ok, too many points raised in here! ;) As usual I don't have much time. Tomorrow (it's 12.00 am here, so in about 8 hours) there will be a general assembly in every school, university and workplace to decide what to do next. Plus, there will be local protests, to further involve other people. The next big manifestation in the city centre is Friday.
Ernie, KKE does not want to win the elections, it seeks a revolution. It is written in their declaration.
Stancel, SYRIZA are reformists simply because they have declared their purpose to win the elections and run the country "alternatively". They actually laugh at the idea of revolution, believe me.
The thing is, not just banks and public buildings are destroyed. If only they were... And, anyway, this not the right way to gain the people's trust. The working class has to emancipate itself, we can't rely on a small group of urban guerillas.

[manic expression]

If you go back to what I wrote I posted an example in the next sentence. I will repost it though;

My word, you are desperate. That quote is basically correct: the minority of "demonstrators" who are engaging in counterproductive activities are setting back the working-class mobilizations that are taking place. This minority is diverting attention to their own foolish actions, actions which do nothing to further the cause of the workers.

In your blind rush to bad-mouth the communists, you are now defending a set of tactics that has NEVER been productive or helpful. All your bluster about your commitment to the working class is clearly a bunch of hot air; you side with a small group of masked anarchists instead of the workers.


Please explain what this is apart from a clear attempt to stop workers forming links with youth who are fighting on the streets.:lol: Please. Your argument consists of seeing what you want to see, regardless of the facts involved. The KKE is actively forming links between the youth and the workers, they simply want nothing to do with the minority of youth (since you can't get this fact through your head) who are more concerned with breaking shop windows than with revolutionary activity. Again, since you can't bring yourself to understand the reality of the situation, the rioters are doing nothing positive for the striking workers, and are in fact hurting the efforts of the latter.

Oh, but denouncing nonsensical and quasi-luddite foolishness is just part of a grand Stalinist conspiracy to pit workers against students. I see. If you thought about how absurd you sound for five seconds, you might get somewhere.


Then again don't bother. When we look the way you analyse the Stalinist parties and the situation, it is very clear that you have very little if nothing to add to any discussion about how to move forward.Moving forward, for workers, doesn't mean rioting; it means concentrated efforts to confront the ruling class. That's what the KKE is doing. That, not your immature fantasies, is what moving forward is, and that's precisely what you can't stand.

As always, you have nothing but empty phrases and slogans, whereas real revolutionaries are organizing growing struggles. Again, when's the last time anyone has ever cared about the ultra-lefts? That's right: never, because no one beyond RevLeft listens to puritans such as yourself. The KKE has immense support within the Greek working class and has recieved solidarity from around the world...but keep complaining from the sidelines, because it's all you're good for.

[NickHs]

inter.kke.gr/TheSocial/News/2008news/2008-06-arthro-koutsoumpas/

[ernie]

Ernie, KKE does not want to win the elections, it seeks a revolution.
Then why participate in them? Why legitimize them? Could it be that it's because they take them seriously? That's called reformism.


It is written in their declaration.
I thought we Marxists were supposed to look past what people or groups call themselves and look at what they actually do.

Besides, their intentions are irrelevant; what matters is that they are behaving like a bourgeois political party. If you act like a bourgeois political party, then sooner or later you will become one. Being determines consciousness.


The thing is, not just banks and public buildings are destroyed. If only they were... And, anyway, this not the right way to gain the people's trust. The working class has to emancipate itself, we can't rely on a small group of urban guerillas.
Exactly! Which is why the working class should be out there burning banks to the ground and fighting the fucking pigs. The KKE seems to want to stop this from happening. I contend that they are doing this because they know that this isn't a good way to get votes.

I may be wrong...we'll find out, soon enough.

[Revy]

I'll admit I don't know enough to judge the situation. but if the KKE is really "Stalinist" then I cannot support them. I will support the workers and students of Greece in their general strike.

[Devrim]

But these rioters aren't only being combative. I mean, they are attacking agents of the state and destroying buildings symbolic of the ruling class (like banks), and they're doing it in the name of anarchism. That is, they aren't randomly braking shit for no reason. To me, this reflects that they do have a very primitive grasp on Marxism (even if they don't call it that). In times so reactionary as these, I happily consider them revolutionaries. At the very least, I'd say they have a revolutionary attitude.

But you don't destroy a social relationship by burning down a bank.


That's sort of what I meant. That is, organizing workers isn't the only revolutionary activity.

I don't think it is about socialists 'organizing the working class'. It is about the working class organising themselves. The working class though is the only revolutionary force in society. That is important.

Manic Expression, I really can't be bothered to wade through your distortions to argue with somebody who thinks that the KKE is a revolutionary party, sorry.

Devrim

[manic expression]

Manic Expression, I really can't be bothered to wade through your distortions to argue with somebody who thinks that the KKE is a revolutionary party, sorry.

Devrim

Right, because you don't think anyone's revolutionary outside of your impotent ideology. However, it's no loss, you weren't saying anything worthwhile anyway.

[ernie]

manic expression -- you're a Leninist, so we're never going to agree on these points.


Read what I wrote again, you didn't understand my point at all.
Actually, I understand perfectly. I just completely disagree with you, and think historical evidence is on my side. In fact, I understand the whole Leninist paradigm pretty well, and I think that it's flat out wrong.

If I haven't been able to clearly express my opinion on all this (I though I did), it might be because English is not my first language. Anyway, just so it's clear, here are the two things I've been saying:


The KKE is a reformist party. They are using that kid's death to make electoral gains.
Politically-charged riots are going to be a symptom of revolutionary times. That's why I labeled the rioters as having a "revolutionary attitude".


As far as all the other things you mention in your last post, it's all just part of the Leninist formula. We'll have to disagree on that as well.

[ernie]

But you don't destroy a social relationship by burning down a bank.
Mmm...I'm getting the feeling that we're using the word "revolutionary" here in two different ways. You're using it in a very strict way; in this sense, I agree that only the working class can be revolutionary. The way I'm using it in this thread, not only classes can be revolutionary, but also individuals. That's why I used the term "revolutionary attitude". So, for example, radical students can be revolutionary.

[NickHs]

Ernie, me and wanted man have explained why the KKE is not reformist. It clearly states its revolutionary purpose and has never expressed any governmental tendency.
Since when is the burning of an old woman's bakery a "politically - charged" action???
As for the relationship between KKE and the workers, here is a list of the 22 MPs of KKE:
Aleka Papariga - general secretary of the central committee of KKE
Kostas Kazakos - actor
Skopelitis Stavros - Farmer/worker
Haralambos Haralambous - doctor
Nikos Karathanasopoulos - economist
Gatsis Nikos - retired worker
Lila Kafantari - actor
Takis Tziokas - worker
Achileas Kantartzis - lawyer
Ziogas Giannis - academic
Sophia Kalantidou - worker
Liana Kanelli - journalist
Giorgos Marinos - worker
Eva Mela - artist
Giannis Protoulis - Builder, General Secretary of the PB of KNE
Vera Nikolaidou - economist
Spyros Halvatzis - member of the PB of KKE
Nikos Moraitis - worker/farmer
Giorgos Mavrikos - worker
Elpida Pantelaki - employee
Dimos Koumpoyris - worker
Kostas Alysandrakis - academic
I think the relationship is pretty obvious. SYRIZA's supporters and MPs are only students and intellectuals.

Today was great, we organized local protest outside police stations in every neighborhood. Tomorrow there is going to be a student manifestation in the city centre.

[NickHs]

I agree that only the working class can be revolutionary. The way I'm using it in this thread, not only classes can be revolutionary, but also individuals.
Hmm... unfortunately capitalism knows no individual... It's a system of mass oppression and it requires a mass response.

[optimist]

nickhs,no, today maybe members of kke was on the protests but there were NOT ORGANISED by you, as the general strike in wednesday didnt organised by you also.yesterday night in petroupoli ,where students attacked the police station, kke members tried to push them away and chase them alongside with the police,eventhough no little shops were attacked, because you want to show your good behavior to the middle class for electoral gains.tommorrow kke organise a demonstration in omonia square alone with its own students groups ,all the others will gather elsewhere because you dont want to mix with others.you will shout only what your instructors tell you and then you will go quietly home,if your helmet-wearing bullies dont attack to other groups demonstrators as they usually do when they happened to be in front of them.

[Pogue]

Why can't we have strikes, protests and organisation in parties as well as fighting in the streets?

[NickHs]

nickhs,no, today maybe members of kke was on the protests but there were NOT ORGANISED by you, as the general strike in wednesday didnt organised by you also.yesterday night in petroupoli ,where students attacked the police station, kke members tried to push them away and chase them alongside with the police,eventhough no little shops were attacked, because you want to show your good behavior to the middle class for electoral gains.tommorrow kke organise a demonstration in omonia square alone with its own students groups ,all the others will gather elsewhere because you dont want to mix with others.you will shout only what your instructors tell you and then you will go quietly home,if your helmet-wearing bullies dont attack to other groups demonstrators as they usually do when they happened to be in front of them.

I am not a member of KKE nor KNE. I just acknowledge that they are the only ones that give a class - oriented character in their struggle. That's the point of separate gatherings. That, and safety. The KKE gives people the opportunity to protest safely.
The manifestation in Omonoia tomorrow is held by the SASA, the cooperational organization of schools. Not the KKE.
I didn't state that the protests today were organized by the KKE.
Sure, the members of KKE try to avoid such things as "attacks". They have no point and just disorient class struggle.
The only way to success is to be organized and clear. Remember that.

[Leo]

KKE clearly seems to have dissociated "the justified wrath for the victims of state suppression" (which is shared even by Karamanlis :rolleyes:), that is of course the demonstration they call for from the "rioters" that is the general movement which is not in their hands at all. All who they don't direct are "hooded rioters" to them. And I would imagine that they are using their influence to prevent as much of their base in universities and schools from not even becoming a part of but coming into contact with the movement as much as possible. As for their general perspective and orientation and what they are trying to gain from this movement, it seems to be the same with that of PASOK really: new elections. Coalition of the Radical Left seems to be trying to trail the movement in hopes of gaining control of it while also being safe enough not openly supporting it.

Clearly burning stuff and breaking windows is not a wise thing to do at all (of course some posters here who oppose them violently because of the KKE's position would fanatically support them if they were taking place in a country where little brown people lived), on the other hand while anger and lack of perspectives can lead some discontented youth to such acts which contribute to nothing, it should first of all be argued that what is called the "rioting" is a massively spread movement of young proletarians who have occupied universities and high schools, have formed general assemblies and so forth. This movement, identified with the burning of buildings and condemnded as rioting by all international bourgeois media including the stalinists can not be reduced to such acts by the revolutionaries. Also it is neither just about the murder of the young anarchist but also about the general discontent and problems of the young proletarians; problems that are the same with those of the currently working masses of Greece. The only way forward for the movement remains the entry of the currently working masses to become involved with the young proletarians and their struggle.


I am not a member of KKE nor KNE. I just acknowledge that they are the only ones that give a class - oriented character in their struggle.You seem to be are coming from a genuine concern but how does KKE's Greek patriotism in general and unsurprising scab-like actions, such as bullying and chasing students among with the police in this particular case fit with this class oriented character they are supposedly trying to give?


As for the relationship between KKE and the workers, here is a list of the 22 MPs of KKE:Even though the social background of their deputies have got nothing to do with their politics, how does 10 out of 22 support your point to begin with?

[Leo]

Discussion on elections and reformism split by the way: http://www.revleft.org/vb/showthread.php?t=96794

[NickHs]

Look Leo, KKE is not condemning everything that is not under its control. Occupations, strikes, local protests etc are not run by KKE, but are supported by it, believe me. It just condemns the stuff like burning etc...
The word "stalinist" is a bourgeois creation
As for the MPs: the other parties haven't got any workers in their parliament groups. Even SYRIZA.

KKE is patriotic just like anyone should be. The idea that patriotism opposes internationalism is childish. Greece is a small country, in which the EU and the NATO are imposed. It is vital to demand national independence.
I've seen with my own eyes members of the "radical" left attacking KKE members. As every organized party would do, it defended itself. Now, how's that bullying?

EDIT: Just to be clear: I see your point. I'm not trying to attack you or anything. It's just that I've really come a long way to realizing some things. I used to be totally anti-KKE until I tried to listen to it. So, all the points raised here have, at some time or another, been expressed by me.

[Leo]

Look Leo, KKE is not condemning everything that is not under its control. Occupations, strikes, local protests etc are not run by KKE, but are supported by it, believe me.

Facts, such as their general attitude, them holding seperate demonstrations, aiding the police against students, discussing what to do with Karamanlis as well as them seeming to be moving together with PASOK, and also reports from all others posting from Greece doesn't support what you are saying.


The word "stalinist" is a bourgeois creation

It is not at all; it is a term that has been put forward by communists to condemn the counter revolution in Russia.

The bourgeoisie were signing deals with the stalinists back then.


As for the MPs: the other parties haven't got any workers in their parliament groups. Even SYRIZA.

Yeah - tells more about what a farce electoral participation is in the current period rather than telling anything about the KKE.


KKE is patriotic just like anyone should be.

The way you express it displays the problem perfectly.


The idea that patriotism opposes internationalism is childish.

It does, it fundamentally means having and acting in connection with national interests, which are by definition interests of the bourgeoisie and accordingly against the interests of the international working class, which has no country.

And by the way you just called Lenin a child :lol:


Greece is a small country, in which the EU and the NATO are imposed. It is vital to demand national independence.

And there you are, calling Greece an oppressed nation.


I've seen with my own eyes members of the "radical" left attacking KKE members. As every organized party would do, it defended itself. Now, how's that bullying?

Optimist said: yesterday night in petroupoli ,where students attacked the police station, kke members tried to push them away and chase them alongside with the police

I'd call that bullying as well as scab-like behavior.

[manic expression]

Facts, such as their general attitude, them holding seperate demonstrations, aiding the police against students, discussing what to do with Karamanlis as well as them seeming to be moving together with PASOK, and also reports from all others posting from Greece doesn't support what you are saying.

Much to your chagrin, your perception of their "general attitude" doesn't quite qualify as a fact. Secondly, this entire thread is about the KKE showing solidarity with the strikers. Condemning a small minority which is, in fact, engaging in counterproductive nonsense is perfectly reasonable.


It is not at all; it is a term that has been put forward by communists to condemn the counter revolution in Russia.You forget how the term is employed in these sorts of contexts. It is oftentimes used to slander all of Marxism, and that is what the KKE speaks out against the most.


The bourgeoisie were signing deals with the stalinists back then.http://www.revleft.com/vb/new-documents-emerge-t92643/index.html


Yeah - tells more about what a farce electoral participation is in the current period rather than telling anything about the KKE.It doesn't tell you much if you already have your mind made up. As you do.


The way you express it displays the problem perfectly.Care to outline something in specific?


It does, it fundamentally means having and acting in connection with national interests, which are by definition interests of the bourgeoisie and accordingly against the interests of the international working class, which has no country.

And by the way you just called Lenin a child :lol:This is garbage. The Cuban internationalists, the same fighters who sacrificed their lives to defend the people of Angola against apartheid, employed ideas of patriotism. Taking bourgeois patriotism as its only possible form is naive.

On Lenin, I think his support of all nations to self-determination nullifies your attempt at humor.


And there you are, calling Greece an oppressed nation.My word, have you forgotten what happened after WWII? Churchill imposed his will on the entire country because he wanted to re-assert the dying British Empire.


Optimist said: yesterday night in petroupoli ,where students attacked the police station, kke members tried to push them away and chase them alongside with the police

I'd call that bullying as well as scab-like behavior.Is that the best you can do? Typical.

and on edit:

Well, we formed the majority of the communist parties in Europe, largely contributed to the foundation of the Communist International, had a majority in the Bolshevik Party for a while and played an important role in the first revolutionary wave following WW1.

All I'm going to say: that's quite an impressive record, too bad it's full of twisted half-truths at best.

[Leo]

Thread split again: http://www.revleft.org/vb/showthread.php?t=96803 (http://www.revleft.org/vb/showthread.php?t=96803)

No more off topic discussions please, this thread is about the events in Greece, the strike and the KKE.

[Revy]

The word "stalinist" is a bourgeois creation


The word Stalinist was coined by a Stalinist (Kaganovich). But I would agree with your assertion "The word Stalinist is a bourgeois creation" in this context.

I suppose this answers the question, is the KKE Stalinist? Well, that's that, I guess.

[NickHs]

It's one thing to use a word in its historical context and a whole other to use it politically...
Anyway, I won't go further on the national issue, lest I go off topic.

The manifestation today was huge. 8 to 10.000 students protested in Athens. Our next moves will be decided in a students' assembly on Sunday afternoon.
Tomorrow there will be a silent protest on Syntagma Square. Kind of stupid, if you want my opinion, but I'll go anyway.