Greece

[Killfacer]

It's all kicking off in Greece. I don't feel i am the best equipped to write this article but because none have been forth coming i feel i should.

Basically it all started when the police shot a young kid in the chest. The rioting has spread throughout the country and there is now a general strike planned.

The strike is mainly in protest against the conservative government in power at the moment, but if the riots carry on for much longer then surely this is likely to de-stabilise the current government. Students, workers and anarchists striking, rioting and protesting. Good stuff im sure you'll agree.

Some of the media coverage has been fucking awful. Just saw a news update on BBC 24 and it completely ignored the fact that i child had been shot.
and for general information http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7770887.stm

[Sam_b]

If you mean in OI, fair enough. However there's two threads on it in the Politics forum.:)

[Killfacer]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/greek-protests-escalate-p1304841/index.html#post1304841

The above thread is way better than mine.

Sam B- stop being a gimp and following me around you fucking looser.

[Killfacer]

Ah i see why your a twat. Your in the SWP. Should have known, fuckwittery is genetic for you lot.

[Sam_b]

Honestly, give it a rest :rolleyes: Can I not reply to threads any more?

[RGacky3]

Good Look, I have my fingers crossed for Greece, a country which has one of the strongest Anarchist movements in Europe. So hopefully this will turn into some workplace takeovers, Neighborhood self-rule, and maybe into a Oaxaca situation (hopefully without the State stomping down on it), although I have my doubts it will happen.

The coverage of it is typical, every Social uprising is portraid as just a bunch of angry crazy rioters breaking stuff, while the police are just simply trying to keep the peace. Strikers are portraid as doing something thats almost violent by not working, its rediculous.

[danyboy27]

i am gonna be a buzzkiller, but its not the first time such thing happen in greece.

i dont think most of rioter are breaking stuff or looting, but has anarchist movements, they should organize themselves to stop such action inside their group, this is really really counter productive.

[Killfacer]

Honestly, give it a rest :rolleyes: Can I not reply to threads any more?

Reply away, but if all you are going to do is smugly point out that there are already threads about then don't bother.

I think whats interesting about this particular flair up is that its become far more than just some students protesting on their own or some anarchists protesting on their own.

Its become a more united front and the subject has become not only the child getting shot but also the conservative government in power at the moment.

[F9]

Reply away, but if all you are going to do is smugly point out that there are already threads about then don't bother.

I think whats interesting about this particular flair up is that its become far more than just some students protesting on their own or some anarchists protesting on their own.

Its become a more united front and the subject has become not only the child getting shot but also the conservative government in power at the moment.

To get it it clear the current situation isnt dominated by Anarchists, yeah Anarchists are the majority of people there, but a lot of people in Greece,even simple people, even not really leftists, got down in riots, people who never "get in trouble" now are with a rock or a molotov by hand, so people just "explode" about everything thats happening in the last years, decades in greece which is a sick situation for the working class, and even above!!!Corruption of state, police force abuse their power, kill kids, beat the hell out of innoscent people, a lot of things happened!I am not and so hopefull person but i think if people and Anarchists get the situation better, and get "advantage" of the situation and organise correct, with the upcoming general strike, a revolution by the people is possible!It just needs correct organism which for now tbh dont take place in the streets!Lets hope that from wednesday a organize matter is put forward and with some good actions, and "forcing" propaganda to the strikers, i can see a "light in the tunel".
And all this for the "memory" of Alexis too! RIP comrade!

Fuserg9:star:

[Killfacer]

To get it it clear the current situation isnt dominated by Anarchists, yeah Anarchists are the majority of people there, but a lot of people in Greece,even simple people, even not really leftists, got down in riots, people who never "get in trouble" now are with a rock or a molotov by hand, so people just "explode" about everything thats happening in the last years, decades in greece which is a sick situation for the working class, and even above!!!Corruption of state, police force abuse their power, kill kids, beat the hell out of innoscent people, a lot of things happened!I am not and so hopefull person but i think if people and Anarchists get the situation better, and get "advantage" of the situation and organise correct, with the upcoming general strike, a revolution by the people is possible!It just needs correct organism which for now tbh dont take place in the streets!Lets hope that from wednesday a organize matter is put forward and with some good actions, and "forcing" propaganda to the strikers, i can see a "light in the tunel".
And all this for the "memory" of Alexis too! RIP comrade!

Fuserg9:star:

Thats what i was saying. Its great that instead of just the usual suspects protesting/rioting, ordinary people have got involved.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Good Look, I have my fingers crossed for Greece, a country which has one of the strongest Anarchist movements in Europe. So hopefully this will turn into some workplace takeovers, Neighborhood self-rule, and maybe into a Oaxaca situation (hopefully without the State stomping down on it), although I have my doubts it will happen.

The coverage of it is typical, every Social uprising is portraid as just a bunch of angry crazy rioters breaking stuff, while the police are just simply trying to keep the peace. Strikers are portraid as doing something thats almost violent by not working, its rediculous.

I heard there might be a strike on wednesday.

[nuisance]

I heard there might be a strike on wednesday.
Yes, however the strike was planned a month before and wasn't spawned out of solidarity to what has been going on.
However it is encouraging stuff with more non-politico workers taking up a half-brick and molotov. So who knows what the strike on wednesday could produce?

[nuisance]

i am gonna be a buzzkiller, but its not the first time such thing happen in greece.

i dont think most of rioter are breaking stuff or looting, but has anarchist movements, they should organize themselves to stop such action inside their group, this is really really counter productive.
Do you have any knowledge of what is going on in Greece or just spewing shit?
No, the riots usually in Greece have been small and concentrated in one area. Currently thousands are participating in various ways, rioting, occuptions and so on all over Greece. The rioting has now esclated and speaking out against the economic situation aswell as the murder.

[Bud Struggle]

The point here is that the police killed some teenager and it was wrong and it's a real human tragedy. THAT's the point of all this--not how much milage some political cause (no matter how worthy) could get from this.

There is a real vulture aspect to politics sometimes.

[RGacky3]

THAT's the point of all this--not how much milage some political cause (no matter how worthy) could get from this.


Do you think the LA riots were primarily about rodney king?

[Annie K.]

The point here is that the police killed some teenager and it was wrong and it's a real human tragedyNo the point is that the police killed one more teenager, and that the police is the real human tragedy.
The point is, how can this never happen again ?

[Bud Struggle]

No the point is that the police killed one more teenager, and that the police is the real human tragedy.
The point is, how can this never happen again ?

And you think the answer is political? A change of government's going to do that?

Every government kills people. Some do it in broad daylight and some do it in secrecy. As ugly as it is I rather they kill in broad daylight. No Stazi no KGB just idiot police being over zealous.

[nuisance]

And you think the answer is political? A change of government's going to do that?

Every government kills people. Some do it in broad daylight and some do it in secrecy. As ugly as it is I rather they kill in broad daylight. No Stazi no KGB just idiot police being over zealous.
As I have previously said, the riots are metamorphising. Yes, it was sparked off by the murder, the action happening is against the institution that armed the murderer, and if you read relevant articles coming out of Greece, it is now turning into a much broader struggle encompassing that of the current economic situation in the country.

[Bud Struggle]

As I have previously said, the riots are metamorphising. Yes, it was sparked off by the murder, the action happening is against the institution that armed the murderer, and if you read relevant articles coming out of Greece, it is now turning into a much broader struggle encompassing that of the current economic situation in the country.

As as I said--the vultures are pouncing. They capitalize (and note the word CAPITAL) on some unfortunate incident and make political hay off of it.

Despicable. The Nazis did no less on Kristalnacht.

I know--"your" side not "their" side winning in this fight. Tommorrow it will be the other way around.

All the same thing. This is where honest disagreement and discourse breaks off and riots in the street produce rule of law.

And when people grow weiry of the riot in the streets--a STRONG MAN will make order of it all.

I've seen it a million times. :)

[Annie K.]

Yes, as said just above, the answer of the greek anarchists (and others) is political. Riot.
They probably don't plan to make all humans immortal the next morning, but they no longer accept the daily lives and death as they were until now.

This particular death is just a signal. There is no vultures, but they needed something to unify their desires to riot.
Revolutions are not planned.

[Bud Struggle]

Yes, as said just above, the answer of the greek anarchists (and others) is political. Riot.
They probably don't plan to make all humans immortal the next morning, but they no longer accept the daily lives and death as they were until now.

This particular death is just a signal. There is no vultures, but they needed something to unify their desires to riot.
Revolutions are not planned.

Pretty darn existential answer! :thumbup: :lol:

[nuisance]

As as I said--the vultures are pouncing. They capitalize (and note the word CAPITAL) on some unfortunate incident and make political hay off of it.

Despicable. The Nazis did no less on Kristalnacht.

I know--"your" side not "their" side winning in this fight. Tommorrow it will be the other way around.

All the same thing. This is where honest disagreement and discourse breaks off and riots in the street produce rule of law.

And when people grow weiry of the riot in the streets--a STRONG MAN will make order of it all.

I've seen it a million times. :)
There's already talk of the Greek government putting the country on crisis alert and Prime Minister Costas Karamanlis may be resigning as early as tuesday.
No vulture like activity in regular people showing there discontent that brought about the murder of a 16 year old boy, and that you portray these actions as vulture like is completely 'descipcable'.
Yes, a strong man:rolleyes:

[Pogue]

As as I said--the vultures are pouncing. They capitalize (and note the word CAPITAL) on some unfortunate incident and make political hay off of it.

Despicable. The Nazis did no less on Kristalnacht.

I know--"your" side not "their" side winning in this fight. Tommorrow it will be the other way around.

All the same thing. This is where honest disagreement and discourse breaks off and riots in the street produce rule of law.

And when people grow weiry of the riot in the streets--a STRONG MAN will make order of it all.

I've seen it a million times. :)

You've seen it have you? From the comfort of your suburban home? Impressive. You haven't seen shit, thats why you're so politically clueless. I thought better of you than to do the old Nazi comparison too, and whats with that junk about CAPITAL? You misunderstand the situation, but I'd expect no less, everythings fine and rosie from where you're standing.

[Bud Struggle]

You've seen it have you? From the comfort of your suburban home? Impressive. You haven't seen shit, thats why you're so politically clueless. I thought better of you than to do the old Nazi comparison too, and whats with that junk about CAPITAL? You misunderstand the situation, but I'd expect no less, everythings fine and rosie from where you're standing.

And you do? Who's getting hurt in the riots--the borgeoise? The politicians? The police? No--just poor working slobs that live from paycheck to paycheck and if they don't get the crap beat out of them or maybe get killed may miss a couple of weeks worth of work and find themselves further in debt.

Riots aren't going to change anything. At least for the better.

Yea, let the poor bastards kill one another--all for the glory of the Revolution.

[Bud Struggle]

There's already talk of the Greek government putting the country on crisis alert and Prime Minister Costas Karamanlis may be resigning as early as tuesday.
No vulture like activity in regular people showing there discontent that brought about the murder of a 16 year old boy, and that you portray these actions as vulture like is completely 'descipcable'.
Yes, a strong man:rolleyes:

As long as all this activity is quantified as being about the unwarrented death of a 16 year old boy I have no problem with the fall of the government--the vulutres arise when people pin their political aspiration on the death of a kid.

[Dimentio]

The point here is that the police killed some teenager and it was wrong and it's a real human tragedy. THAT's the point of all this--not how much milage some political cause (no matter how worthy) could get from this.

There is a real vulture aspect to politics sometimes.

It was some sort of "last drip" reaction. All this unrest is not because of this, but because Greece is a polarised country with very bad social safety nets.

Greece is like Europe's version of Louisiana.

[Pogue]

And you do? Who's getting hurt in the riots--the borgeoise? The politicians? The police? No--just poor working slobs that live from paycheck to paycheck and if they don't get the crap beat out of them or maybe get killed may miss a couple of weeks worth of work and find themselves further in debt.

Riots aren't going to change anything. At least for the better.

Yea, let the poor bastards kill one another--all for the glory of the Revolution.

So you expect us to let every attack on us pass by, with no reaction to the brutal murder of the state? We should let this shit continue because if we respond or fight we might get hurt? Do you even know how many people are kileld daily by the ruling elites through starving, bombing, disease? The cops killed a guy and comrades are expressing their rage int he only way you can under this fucked up facade of a system. You say riots wont change anything, so you propose doing nothing. Sound plan bud.

[Bud Struggle]

It was some sort of "last drip" reaction. All this unrest is not because of this, but because Greece is a polarised country with very bad social safety nets.

Greece is like Europe's version of Louisiana.

Fair enough.

[Bud Struggle]

So you expect us to let every attack on us Who the hell is "us"?


with no reaction to the brutal murder of the state? Or just some stupid cops over reaction? A dissapearance after a meeting with the Stazi or the KGB is a brutal murder by the state. Not this idiocy in broad daylight.


We should let this shit continue because if we respond or fight we might get hurt? The kid that was killed was fight for Communism? You know that? Or did he break a window or steal a TV or computer?


Do you even know how many people are kileld daily by the ruling elites through starving, bombing, disease? They aren't starved because of Capitalism of Communism--they live in brutal dictatorships run by monsters that don't give a hoot either way about any political ideology.


The cops killed a guy and comrades You don't have a CLUE the rioters are "Comrades." They aren't Comrades--they are just (rightly) pissed off people that you want to use to justify your political ends. Politics is a lot more complicated than that.


are expressing their rage int he only way you can under this fucked up facade of a system. You say riots wont change anything, so you propose doing nothing. Sound plan bud. I've been saying the same thing all along--honest parlementry democracy is the only solution.

Mob rule can get you ANYTHING--sometimes good, but mostly bad. Change has to be orderly.

[Enragé]

http://libcom.org/news/rioting-explodes-across-greece-08122008

best article on the situation

[Plagueround]

Change has to be orderly.

I can't think of a single big change in history that was. Do you know of any?

(Honest question, not baiting you.)

[RGacky3]

And you do? Who's getting hurt in the riots--the borgeoise? The politicians? The police? No--just poor working slobs that live from paycheck to paycheck and if they don't get the crap beat out of them or maybe get killed may miss a couple of weeks worth of work and find themselves further in debt.

Riots aren't going to change anything. At least for the better.

Yea, let the poor bastards kill one another--all for the glory of the Revolution.

You know this based on what?

Riots work when they evolve in to something better and organized, such as what happend in Oaxaca. Right now your just talking, your not basing it on anything.


I've been saying the same thing all along--honest parlementry democracy is the only solution.

Has that ever solved anything in the third world? Nope, Even in the first world. You can't solve the problems caused by the system while keeping the system, the problems caused by Capitalism are inherent in Capitalism, thats why SOcial democracy does'nt work, and is not working. The answer, the solution, is revolution, and revolution starts with people, comming to gether and fighting against power structures.


All the same thing. This is where honest disagreement and discourse breaks off and riots in the street produce rule of law.

And when people grow weiry of the riot in the streets--a STRONG MAN will make order of it all.

You can't have honest discources when one side has all the power, guns and money, its impossible.

As for your second quote, what do you have to back that up? Either in the way of reasoning or history? Because I have both to say thats not true.


They aren't starved because of Capitalism of Communism--they live in brutal dictatorships run by monsters that don't give a hoot either way about any political ideology.

Most poor people don't live in brutal dictatorships run by monsters, and most of those dictatorships are there courtasy of big business.

Again, I have history and reasoning and common sense to show that Capitalism does case these things.

Wheres yours? Or are you just talking out of your ass again.

[Ele'ill]

And you do? Who's getting hurt in the riots--the borgeoise? The politicians? The police? No--just poor working slobs that live from paycheck to paycheck and if they don't get the crap beat out of them or maybe get killed may miss a couple of weeks worth of work and find themselves further in debt.

Riots aren't going to change anything. At least for the better.

Yea, let the poor bastards kill one another--all for the glory of the Revolution.


Well not quite. The police are getting hurt and a lot of 'state' property was damaged. This is probably the most appropriate of settings to launch direct action missions against the state. (Rather than at an antiwar demonstration). Although I have not read much about what has actually been destroyed, blown up or lit on fire in this particular case, its probably a lot of stupid things that just make the noise makers look like destructive assholes that lack the notion of symbolism.

*Edit: holy shit. They lit the giant christmas tree on fire! This is becoming interesting.

I like to think of a certain situation when events like this take place. The media reporter says 'gangs of youth are destroying the working man and woman's vehicles in the street, the police are being firebombed, the capitol is on fire, how will the common person survive such tragedy?..

And then the camera pans over to where the common people should be standing and there is no one because the common people have decided to voice their dissent and are marching in the street.

A boy was killed. But there is quite an eclectic range of ages out there fighting.

[Bud Struggle]

I can't think of a single big change in history that was. Do you know of any?

(Honest question, not baiting you.)

Sure--governments fall all the time. The entire rise of social democracies came about without firing a shot. Even Hugo Chavez was democratically elected. The Soviet Union and the entire Iron Curtain fell without anyone even looking out their window. China is changing it's entire economic structure--gradually but with determination.

This aimless riot way of proceeding is a thing of the past--as least as far as institution changes go.

[Annie K.]

The entire rise of social democracies came about without firing a shot. Even Hugo Chavez was democratically elected. The Soviet Union and the entire Iron Curtain fell without anyone even looking out their window. China is changing it's entire economic structure--gradually but with determination.The entire rise of social democracies was based on a movement that was violently repressed and expressed since 1850 till at least (for some first world countries) 1950.
Hugo chavez stayed in power thanks to large protests.
The hungarian would probably not agree with you about the iron curtain.
In China, there is order that's true, but even you would prefer continuous riots than such an order.

The institutions don't go far.

[Bud Struggle]

The entire rise of social democracies was based on a movement that was violently repressed and expressed since 1850 till at least (for some first world countries) 1950. Not quite. Those protests were only slightly connected with the rise of social democracies. IT all happenedthrough parlementary proceedures. The French Revolution took away a king and returned an emperior.


Hugo chavez stayed in power thanks to large protests.
I have no problem with protests--it's riots over a innocent boy's killing used by opportunists that I have a problem with.


The hungarian would probably not agree with you about the iron curtain. There was no connection between the Hungarian revolt and the fall of Communism.


In China, there is order that's true, but even you would prefer continuous riots than such an order.[/uote] Tuche. It's ugly.

[scarletghoul]

Its cool that they're rioting.

In this country, if a kid got shot by the police people wouldnt care that much, and the media and stupid people would probably support it because they seem to hate teenagers nowadays. 'serves him right, being young and all'

[Plagueround]

Sure--governments fall all the time. The entire rise of social democracies came about without firing a shot.

It seems to me you look at history as a series of small, unconnected events instead of interconnected. Social democracy was largely a result of both World Wars and an attempt to distance themselves from revolutionary communists. To say that these changes were non-violent and orderly is to ignore the events that preceded and influenced them.


The Soviet Union and the entire Iron Curtain fell without anyone even looking out their window.The fall of the Soviet Union was anything but orderly. There was a coup attempt, riots, protests, and tons of people forced into the streets as their money became useless. I've got a rather interesting first hand account bookmarked on my laptop, remind me and I'll pull it up later.


China is changing it's entire economic structure--gradually but with determination.Do I need to post the pictures of people standing in front of tanks?


This aimless riot way of proceeding is a thing of the past--as least as far as institution changes go.Perhaps, although strikes, uprisings, riots, and protests are rapidly growing throughout the world, they just don't get much coverage in the mainstream media. I was surprised to see this Greek thing being reported as much as it has. Even so, this does not mean that change has been orderly. Even the election of Barack Obama (which, don't get me wrong, won't change much if anything) was largely the result of a violent, damaging, chaotic war. Without that violent and chaotic event, most people would have probably just voted a Republican in again.

As for the death of Alexis, I think this is exactly what should have happened. The state, if it must exist, should fear its people and not the other way around. Next time something like this happens, you think one of their cops will be so overzealous and eager to shoot some poor kid to death?

[Bud Struggle]

It seems to me you look at history as a series of small, unconnected events instead of interconnected. Social democracy was largely a result of both World Wars and an attempt to distance themselves from revolutionary communists. To say that these changes were non-violent and orderly is to ignore the events that preceded and influenced them. I agree that both world wars had a large part to play in the rise of social democracy--but neither war was actually fought for it--indeed both wars were fought for entirely different ideologies.


The fall of the Soviet Union was anything but orderly. There was a coup attempt, riots, protests, and tons of people forced into the streets as their money became useless. I've got a rather interesting first hand account bookmarked on my laptop, remind me and I'll pull it up later. Again--maybe there were some protests but for the size of the fall of a such a large country--they mattered little. Most people could care less. The millitary had lots more to say than the average citizen--who for the most part was just happy to see Communism die.


Do I need to post the pictures of people standing in front of tanks? All that happmeed in Hungary--but it didn't make the country fall.


Perhaps, although strikes, uprisings, riots, and protests are rapidly growing throughout the world, they just don't get much coverage in the mainstream media. I was surprised to see this Greek thing being reported as much as it has. No, it's reported because it's news--as is every other riot in any mahor Western nation. the fact things don't get reported is because they are so minor as not to matter or they occur in countries that don't matter.


Even so, this does not mean that change has been orderly. Even the election of Barack Obama (which, don't get me wrong, won't change much if anything) was largely the result of a violent, damaging, chaotic war. Without that violent and chaotic event, most people would have probably just voted a Republican in again. Obama was elected because of the economic mentdown on Wall Street. The war in Iraq had little or nothing to do with it. If there wasn't a meltdown--McCain would be president.


As for the death of Alexis, I think this is exactly what should have happened. The state, if it must exist, should fear its people and not the other way around. Next time something like this happens, you think one of their cops will be so overzealous and eager to shoot some poor kid to death?

Cops are paid by the establishment--but they are basicly members of the proletariate--they are underpaid and overworked and undereducated. The shooter was a fool that overreacted--as sometimes cops have done in the past and will do in the future. Regrettable--but that's our civilization.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Good Look, I have my fingers crossed for Greece, a country which has one of the strongest Anarchist movements in Europe. So hopefully this will turn into some workplace takeovers, Neighborhood self-rule, and maybe into a Oaxaca situation (hopefully without the State stomping down on it), although I have my doubts it will happen.

Yeah, maybe it can break down into ancient city-state lines. That'd be progressive.

Just kidding, that's what I thought of first.

I completely agree with:


The coverage of it is typical, every Social uprising is portraid as just a bunch of angry crazy rioters breaking stuff, while the police are just simply trying to keep the peace. Strikers are portraid as doing something thats almost violent by not working, its rediculous.

This has been true for almost every bit of social unrest, except for the ones in France a couple years back.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

In this country, if a kid got shot by the police people wouldnt care that much, and the media and stupid people would probably support it because they seem to hate teenagers nowadays. 'serves him right, being young and all'

If it were in America that kid would have pulled out an uzi and gone out in style.

Do the police even carry guns in the UK, as in your regular traffic cop?

[Os Cangaceiros]

Change has to be orderly.

I take it you're not a fan of the American revolution, then?

[Plagueround]

I agree that both world wars had a large part to play in the rise of social democracy--but neither war was actually fought for it--indeed both wars were fought for entirely different ideologies.

Right, the wars weren't fought for them, but social democracy was one of the results. Therefore, is change orderly, or is it the result of unrest, war, and conflict?


Again--maybe there were some protests but for the size of the fall of a such a large country--they mattered little. Most people could care less. The millitary had lots more to say than the average citizen--who for the most part was just happy to see Communism die.

Not to be rude, but do you actually do any research on this stuff? Do you even remember the news blaring from the television when it happened? I was 8 years old at the time and I can vaguely remember reports of the civil unrest, uprisings and separatist movements. Most of it was probably my introduction to these concepts. Even right wing websites that love to trumpet the "death of socialism" will tell you this collapse was not orderly.


No, it's reported because it's news--as is every other riot in any mahor Western nation. the fact things don't get reported is because they are so minor as not to matter or they occur in countries that don't matter.

Countries that don't matter. Interesting. Well, at least you've identified part of the problem.


Obama was elected because of the economic mentdown on Wall Street. The war in Iraq had little or nothing to do with it. If there wasn't a meltdown--McCain would be president.

You got to the post before I had a chance to edit that and add the finiancial crisis in. The fact that it is a financial "crisis" should be more than enough.


Cops are paid by the establishment--but they are basicly members of the proletariate--they are underpaid and overworked and undereducated.

Which is why I like Apathy Maybe's (and others) take on people's overall relationship to power structures better than clinging to neat little divisions of "prole" and "bourgeoisie". My condolences to those that didn't know any better when they turned their back on the rest of us to become an enforcer. If you look a little more into the situation, you'll discover that Greece has had a problem with police brutality for the past few years. This incident was not a random spark that happened to hit gasoline, this was a slow fire that has been burning for some time.


The shooter was a fool that overreacted--as sometimes cops have done in the past and will do in the future. Regrettable--but that's our civilization.

You have convinced me more than any text book that structural-functionalism really is ivory tower logic.

[Annie K.]

The French Revolution took away a king and returned an emperior.And two wars and two others revolutions were needed to bring back democracy.


I have no problem with protests--it's riots over a innocent boy's killing used by opportunists that I have a problem with.Protests are not really an orderly process. And, for example and talking about french revolutions, in the one of 1848, the event that changed a movement of protests for a liberal reform of the monarchy into a republican revolution (which among other stuff, brought universal suffrage and abolished slavery) was a killing done out of panic by the soldiers. The corpses were carried across paris on a cart all night to spark the insurrection.
Opportunists ? Yes. Why not ? We need a last straw.


There was no connection between the Hungarian revolt and the fall of Communism.I misunderstood, I thought by "the fall of the Iron curtain" you meant its closing. Well, plagueround said it.

[Bud Struggle]

Right, the wars weren't fought for them, but social democracy was one of the results. Therefore, is change orderly, or is it the result of unrest, war, and conflict? I rather think the wars got in the way of the social progress of the 20th century. I think the change was comming anyway.


Not to be rude, but do you actually do any research on this stuff? Do you even remember the news blaring from the television when it happened? I was 8 years old at the time and I can vaguely remember reports of the civil unrest, uprisings and separatist movements. Most of it was probably my introduction to these concepts. Even right wing websites that love to trumpet the "death of socialism" will tell you this collapse was not orderly. I was very much interested at the time--and there was unrest, to be sure but considering that 4 billion "converted" from socialism to capitalism--it was nothing at all. For how large the change was--there was hardley any protest by anyone. But in the end--the fall of the Societ Union CAME FROM THE TOP if people protested in the streets a little--well, OK but that's not what made the change occur.


Countries that don't matter. Interesting. Well, at least you've identified part of the problem. Countries that don't matter to the western press--I wasn't talking about myself. And you know well enough how that works.


You got to the post before I had a chance to edit that and add the finiancial crisis in. The fact that it is a financial "crisis" should be more than enough. Fine.


Which is why I like Apathy Maybe's (and others) take on people's overall relationship to power structures better than clinging to neat little divisions of "prole" and "bourgeoisie". I could agree with that. I'm not a big fan of the Borgeoise/Proletariat split either. It may have worked 150 years ago--no so much now.



My condolences to those that didn't know any better when they turned their back on the rest of us to become an enforcer. If you look a little more into the situation, you'll discover that Greece has had a problem with police brutality for the past few years. This incident was not a random spark that happened to hit gasoline, this was a slow fire that has been burning for some time. Greece has been fading back and forth with Socialist/Communist governments for a long time. And the brutality was much worse when the Communists held power.




You have convinced me more than any text book that structural-functionalism really is ivory tower logic. I certainly believe that the world is moving toward a freer more democratic center--but I believe it's a mass movement--taking place slowly over time. I can't believe that there's going to be some proletarian revolution that will change the world over and people will rise up in the streets. These days you can't even find a real honest to God proletarian.

[Pogue]

Once more TomK, you show the usual ignorance. Orderly parliamentary change? Wow, we can have great fun deciding which sell out murderer we elect to cut our pay and kill our people. In the real world things aren't as cuddly as in you're shielded life and dream of peace and prosperity. Opputunists? You think these riots are solely based upon the murder? Seriously, wake up. You talk out of your arse so much, its not even funny.

You see riots, 'violent' insurrection are the way of the past. I hate this 'progressive' 'peaceful' bollocks we see so much, as if the worlds reached a stage where we should all be intelligent and somehow intelligence means voting for Obama. The way of the past is capitalism and the sham of 'democracy' that comes with it, real direct action seen in places such as, erm, Athens, now thats the way of the future.

Learn some facts and live in the real world, then come back.

[Plagueround]

I certainly believe that the world is moving toward a freer more democratic center--but I believe it's a mass movement--taking place slowly over time. I can't believe that there's going to be some proletarian revolution that will change the world over and people will rise up in the streets. These days you can't even find a real honest to God proletarian.

I don't have time at the moment to respond to each point, but it seems you think I'm saying that all change comes from the bottom up, which is not really my point. I'm simply saying that change is not simply orderly propositions that are voted on. As for revolution, I've discussed my thoughts on what a revolution is and isn't with you before. Feel free to either PM me or hit me up here if you don't recall.

[RGacky3]

I rather think the wars got in the way of the social progress of the 20th century. I think the change was comming anyway.

Anything to back that up? Anything at all? Reasoning? Logic? Hisotrical events? ANYTHING, other than just a hunch, which is pointless.


I was very much interested at the time--and there was unrest, to be sure but considering that 4 billion "converted" from socialism to capitalism--it was nothing at all. For how large the change was--there was hardley any protest by anyone. But in the end--the fall of the Societ Union CAME FROM THE TOP if people protested in the streets a little--well, OK but that's not what made the change occur.

No one COnverted to Socialism to Capitalism, other thant the government, also as far as the Russian and eastern european people were concerned the state was just becoming more free, it was'nt until later they realized Capitalism is screwing them over again, and the unrest in those countries now shows it.


I could agree with that. I'm not a big fan of the Borgeoise/Proletariat split either. It may have worked 150 years ago--no so much now.

Its still applicable and will be as long as some people work for a wage, while others make a living of other peoples work, that bineg said its does'nt explain everything, nor is it the base that everything can be judged by. But its still just as relevant as it always was.


These days you can't even find a real honest to God proletarian.

You've got to be kidding me. Do you know what a proletarian is?


Greece has been fading back and forth with Socialist/Communist governments for a long time. And the brutality was much worse when the Communists held power.

Really? When was this exactly, and what brutality exactly? and BTW Do you know anything about the History of Greece after WW2 up to the mid 1970s? How the government treated the Greek left? The type of (American backed) Brutality of the right wing junta?

[Bud Struggle]

Anything to back that up? Anything at all? Reasoning? Logic? Hisotrical events? ANYTHING, other than just a hunch, which is pointless. Well it has just as much "science" behind it as the proletarian Revolution does. :lol: Seriously, since the Enlightenment people were becomming more educated and taking on more and more responsible for the world around them--England was a democratic without a revolution--and was the seat of Capitalism--as more countries became more Capitalistic--democratic reforms followed.


No one COnverted to Socialism to Capitalism, other thant the government, also as far as the Russian and eastern european people were concerned the state was just becoming more free, it was'nt until later they realized Capitalism is screwing them over again, and the unrest in those countries now shows it. One can make the case that in the SU only the "state" itself was Socialist--the people were Capitalistic already.



You've got to be kidding me. Do you know what a proletarian is? I know what they are--the thing is THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE. As any working guy if he's a proletarian in the USA at least--and he's likely to punch you.




Really? When was this exactly, and what brutality exactly? and BTW Do you know anything about the History of Greece after WW2 up to the mid 1970s? How the government treated the Greek left? The type of (American backed) Brutality of the right wing junta? Most of the brutality of the Communists followed directly after WWII--during the Greek Civil War--actually because of the war the Communists left the government and the people of Greece polerized to this day. Part of the reason for the discontent is stems from the Communist and right wing fighting that's been carried on since the War.

They never developed a decent "middle."

[Bud Struggle]

I don't have time at the moment to respond to each point, but it seems you think I'm saying that all change comes from the bottom up, which is not really my point. I'm simply saying that change is not simply orderly propositions that are voted on. As for revolution, I've discussed my thoughts on what a revolution is and isn't with you before. Feel free to either PM me or hit me up here if you don't recall.

And this is way off my point also--my point is that "vultures" are using the killing of a kid to further their own political cause. The best change comes from elected change--not beer hall putschs.

[nuisance]

And this is way off my point also--my point is that "vultures" are using the killing of a kid to further their own political cause. The best change comes from elected change--not beer hall putschs.
Quite why you haven't understood this yet as it has been said plenty of times but, the actions taking place have developed beyond the murder which acted as a tipping point of decades of social unrest.

[Robert]

I can't think of a single big change in history that was [orderly]. Do you know of any?


Didn't the Indians run the British out of India with civil disobedience as the principal force? It may not have been "orderly," but the moving force was at least non-violent.

There was force and violence by the British, of course, but it ultimately failed.

[Vendetta]

Didn't the Indians run the British out of India with civil disobedience as the principal force? It may not have been "orderly," but the moving force was at least non-violent.

There was force and violence by the British, of course, but it ultimately failed.

There were simultaneous violent and nonviolent independence movements in India.

[Bilan]

Bye bye Greek bourgeoisie. :lol:

[#FF0000]

And this is way off my point also--my point is that "vultures" are using the killing of a kid to further their own political cause. The best change comes from elected change--not beer hall putschs.

Yeah I mean it isn't as if liberal democracy as we know it was forced in through violent revolution or anything.

D'ohohohohoho. Wait a minute. It was. And that is why we have capitalism today, and not Feudalism. :mellow:

[Bud Struggle]

Bye bye Greek bourgeoisie. :lol:

Hardley. :rolleyes:

I'll tell you what's going to happen--another Greek government is going to fall and another Papandreou is going to be elected to run the country (this time, Jeffery) many promises will be made and order will be restored and people will go home happy.

But the main consequence of this whole action will be the Hilton Hotel will use its insurance money and take the opportunity to redecorate--this time I think in teal and champaigne.

That's it. :)

[Ele'ill]

Granted I didn't actually read page 3 of this thread. Unless that's the page I posted on previously but whatever:

I hear there are actions planned in Berlin, Vienna and else where. Things already happened in london.




And the only thing american anarchists can do is create a poster?

http://news.infoshop.org/article.php?story=20081209235352761

I suppose it was a local, Greek issue, but police are a problem that affect all of us. :)

[Bilan]

Hardley. :rolleyes:

I'll tell you what's going to happen--another Greek government is going to fall and another Papandreou is going to be elected to run the country (this time, Jeffery) many promises will be made and order will be restored and people will go home happy.

But the main consequence of this whole action will be the Hilton Hotel will use its insurance money and take the opportunity to redecorate--this time I think in teal and champaigne.

That's it. :)

That's possible, but likely, considering the context?
I don't think so. Major economic instability on an international scale, failing governments, general strikes in many countries, growth of revolutionary politics?
I wouldn't be so confident, businessman. I'd be a little worried, businessman.

[Bilan]

Granted I didn't actually read page 3 of this thread. Unless that's the page I posted on previously but whatever:

I hear there are actions planned in Berlin, Vienna and else where. Things already happened in london.




And the only thing american anarchists can do is create a poster?

http://news.infoshop.org/article.php?story=20081209235352761

I suppose it was a local, Greek issue, but police are a problem that affect all of us. :)


What do you expect them to do?

[Ele'ill]

I wouldn't be so confident, businessman. I'd be a little worried, businessman.

Just out of curiosity, why did you use businessman twice in two consecutive sentences?

I'd agree that after this is over a lot of the buildings owned by the corporations are just going to redecorate. However, this particular week was some of the worst (or best) violence and general out-cry i've seen in a long time and if this type of flash mob event could be relied on every time a cop shot someone or a president said something mean then it would be affective.

Unfortunatley, american anarchists have essentially failed in the show and tell area of international solidarity and have created a poster (and a questionable one at that) while the rest of the world:

London- http://www.wombles.org.uk/article2008122329.php

Berlin- http://de.indymedia.org/2008/12/235153.shtml

Italy(Turin)- http://www.indymedia.org/en/2008/12/917481.shtml

Slovenia- http://www.indymedia.org/en/2008/12/917515.shtml

Elsewhere- http://indymedia.org.nz/newswire/display/76492/index.php

NL- http://www.indymedia.nl/nl/2008/12/56282.shtml

Wow- http://bombsandshields.blogspot.com/

[Ele'ill]

What do you expect them to do?

I'm not sure. Maybe do something more than sit at home and create a poster on the computer, email it to infoshop then roll over and fall back asleep.

Maybe get out there and march a little bit. Nothing violent or ridiculous.

[Killfacer]

I agree with Tom on what the outcome will be. I can't help but beleive that this is going to fizzle out into nothing. It's frustrating but it's impossible for them to keep up the blind rage which has been going on for 5 days now.

I disagree with tom on everything else on this thread, just in case you thought otherwise.

[Bud Struggle]

Just out of curiosity, why did you use businessman twice in two consecutive sentences?


Because physiologically my buttocks is divided into two sections and he is kicking me in each section individually. :D

[Bilan]

^^ :lol::lol:

[Francis]

So hopefully this will turn into some workplace takeovers

Yeah, hopefully they will take over someone else's business instead of putting in the hard work required to start their own. How ideal.

[Bilan]

me thinks francis might be utterly stupid.

[Killfacer]

me thinks francis might be utterly stupid.


I disagree. He's just a maverick like John Mcain and Judge John Deed.

[Bilan]

Is maverick American for intellectual deficiencies?

[Killfacer]

Yeah, it means your disabled/incontinent.

[Bilan]

:lol: i love oi

[RGacky3]

England was a democratic without a revolution--and was the seat of Capitalism--as more countries became more Capitalistic--democratic reforms followed.


England had civil wars and unrest before it became democratic, the kings did'nt just give up power volunarily. Capitalism was'nt fully developed when "democracy" pulled in, Capitalism developed more so later, the 2 were not nessesarily related, only in the sense that class dynamics changed and with it power dynamics.


Well it has just as much "science" behind it as the proletarian Revolution does.

I did'nt say science did I, I said some type of reasoning, logic, history, or something, and if it does have that include it in your post so it does'nt seam like your just tlaking out of your ass.


One can make the case that in the SU only the "state" itself was Socialist--the people were Capitalistic already.


Ok, make that case.

I'll make the case that the State promoted a semi-socialistic class system, and the people were trying overcome it, the State was the ruling class, and the people, like any people, were trying to overcome the working class, not through Capitalism though, and btw, there were very few that did have illigal businesses.


I know what they are--the thing is THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE. As any working guy if he's a proletarian in the USA at least--and he's likely to punch you.

Thats because its a french word with soviet connotations, you ask them if they are working people, working class, they'll now what it is.

But they know who they are and they know who their boss is, you don't need to know french to understand class relations


Most of the brutality of the Communists followed directly after WWII--during the Greek Civil War--actually because of the war the Communists left the government and the people of Greece polerized to this day. Part of the reason for the discontent is stems from the Communist and right wing fighting that's been carried on since the War.

They never developed a decent "middle."

Thats a gross over simplification of history, and the 'brutality' of the communists, (I don't know if you have any examples or anything) pales in comparison to the State.

There di develop a decent middle, the socialist party, which is very popular, but in reality, all the talk about right and left and middle is nonsense, social-democracy is not socialism, your either against private property and a class system, or you accept it.

Anarchism may be something you consider radical, but its much more rational than social democracy.

[Killfacer]

England was democratic without a revolution? Thats the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard. The English civil war was horribly brutal. Thousands died and there were huge pitched battles. Sure we had the fascade of democracy before hand but it took a bloody civil war to acheive a democracy.

[scarletghoul]

Bhutan is interesting. The old king recently abdicated and has been doing this plan to gradually introduce democracy to Bhutan. Its weird because there was no significant unrest or protests or anything, he seems to be doing it voluntarily

[danyboy27]

Bhutan is interesting. The old king recently abdicated and has been doing this plan to gradually introduce democracy to Bhutan. Its weird because there was no significant unrest or protests or anything, he seems to be doing it voluntarily


i noticed that too.

[Francis]

me thinks francis might be utterly stupid.

Pot calling the kettle black. How about arguing intelligently instead of making fun of me?

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Did you know that a loophole in the Greek constitution outlaws police from entering university grounds?

Goddamn that be fun. Hop the barricade from Athens polytechnic with your cocktail, pick out a nice target and chuck it. Run like hell back and get into the safe zone. Rearm. Repeat.

You know, being honest, this makes me resent our firearms. There aren't university riots. There's Kent State.

[Bilan]

Pot calling the kettle black. How about arguing intelligently instead of making fun of me?

Because you're an idiot, and don't know have a clue what is being advocated, yet feel at liberty to make an inane comment on it.

[bcbm]

Did you know that a loophole in the Greek constitution outlaws police from entering university grounds?

Its not a loophole, its because of the November 17, 1973 uprising at the Athens Polytechnic and the massacre of the students that followed.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Its not a loophole, its because of the November 17, 1973 uprising at the Athens Polytechnic and the massacre of the students that followed.

So it's explicitlly banned by the constitution?

That's cool. I'm even more jealous. We had a massacre here of students, in '65 I think, and they didn't outlaw shit.

[Drace]

So we can go in a university and kill everyone and yet no police could get me?

Thats like me being Stalin in a mini Soviet Union =D (just a TomK joke)

[F9]

Yes its a law which really seldom "breaks", but police has a window in this law, if the "president"(or whatever you called him) of the university, asks for the cops to enter then they can do it, but only then!

Fuserg9:star:

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Do greek campuses have their own security?

[Pogue]

TomK is using that stupid "capitalism would have turned nice anyway". Only workers struggle and threat of revolution led to the reforms we enjoy (and are losing daily) today.

[Francis]

Because you're an idiot, and don't know have a clue what is being advocated, yet feel at liberty to make an inane comment on it.Low IQ immigrants and worthless leftist students are rioting over the killing of an innocent individual. Understandable? Yes. But why all of the talk about "workplace takeovers"?

Video proof of the dangerous of diversity: Youtube search the following words:
Athens inner city racial timebomb warning

[Lord Testicles]

http://images.starcraftmazter.net/4chan/for_forums/obvious_troll.jpg

[Francis]

Haha! That's funny stuff. Just because I'm not a communist, I'm a troll?

[Lord Testicles]

Haha! That's funny stuff. Just because I'm not a communist, I'm a troll?

Haha sorry, I was under the impression that you were pretending to be an idiot.

[Killfacer]

The maverick is back. Blowing our minds with his crazy ideas.

[Bilan]

Low IQ immigrants and worthless leftist students are rioting over the killing of an innocent individual. Understandable? Yes. But why all of the talk about "workplace takeovers"?

Video proof of the dangerous of diversity: Youtube search the following words:
Athens inner city racial timebomb warning




Not only are you a complete fucking dumbshit, you're also blatantly oblivious to your own fucking stupidity.
If you knew anything - I know I'm asking for a bit much here - you would know that it is not (just) low IQ immigrants (sic!) and worthless leftist students who are protesting, rioting and striking.
But then, I am asking to much of someone who suggests 'inner city rracial time bomb warning'

What's next, 'global economic crisis: can't stop the Jews?'

I await with excitement.

[Ele'ill]

Something I dislike about the current events in Greece is that the anarchists and whoever else, are calling this a 'youth revolt' when its not entirely a youth revolt. There are a lot of other people in the streets with them and there are a lot of working adults that are supporting them.

There really should be no them in this situation. We're here for the same reason.

[F9]

Something I dislike about the current events in Greece is that the anarchists and whoever else, are calling this a 'youth revolt' when its not entirely a youth revolt. There are a lot of other people in the streets with them and there are a lot of working adults that are supporting them.

There really should be no them in this situation. We're here for the same reason.

the Anarchists are the only people supporting this isnt a youth revolt, but a revolt of all the people of greece!The opposite thats its a youths revolt its only said my the state and media to confuse the people!

Fuserg9:star:

[Matty_UK]

Greek workers have occupied their union offices.



DECLARATION
We will either determine our history ourselves or let it be determined without us
We, manual workers, employees, jobless, temporary workers, local or migrants, are not passive tv-viewers. Since the murder of Alexandros Grigoropoulos on Saturday night we participate in the demonstrations, the clashes with the police, the occupations of the centre or the neighborhoods. Time and again we had to leave work and our daily obligations to take the streets with the students, the university students and the other proletarians in struggle.
WE DECIDED TO OCCUPY THE BUILDING OF GSEE
-To turn it into a space of free expression and a meeting point of workers.
-To disperse the media-touted myth that the workers were and are absent from the clashes, and that the rage of these days was an affair of some 500 "mask-bearers", "hooligans" or some other fairy tale, while on the tv-screens the workers were presented as victims of the clash, while the capitalist crisis in Greece and Worldwide leads to countless layoffs that the media and their managers deal as a "natural phenomenon".
-To flay and uncover the role of the trade union bureaucracy in the undermining of the insurrection -and not only there. GSEE and the entire trade union mechanism that supports it for decades and decades, undermine the struggles, bargain our labor power for crumblings, perpetuate the system of exploitation and wage slavery. The stance of GSEE last Wednesday is quite telling: GSEE cancelled the programmed strikers' demonstration, stopping short at the organization of a brief gathering in Syntagma Sq., making simultaneously sure that the people will be dispersed in a hurry from the Square, fearing that they might get infected by the virus of insurrection.
-To open up this space for the first time -as a continuation of the social opening created by the insurrection itself-, a space that has been built by our contributions, a space from which we were excluded. For all these years we trusted our fate on saviours of every kind, and we end up losing our dignity. As workers we have to start assuming our responsibilities, and to stop assigning our hopes to wise leaders or "able" representatives. We have to acquire a voice of our own, to meet up, to talk, to decide, and to act. Against the generalized attack we endure. The creation of collective "grassroot" resistances is the only way.
-To propagate the idea of self-organization and solidarity in working places, struggle committees and collective grassroot procedures, abolishing the bureaucrat trade unionists.
All these years we gulp the misery, the pandering, the violence in work. We became accustomed to counting the crippled and our dead - the so-called "labor accidents". We became accustomed to ingore the migrants -our class brothers- getting killed. We are tired living with the anxiety of securing a wage, revenue stamps, and a pension that now feels like a distant dream.
As we struggle not to abandon our life in the hands of the bosses and the trade union representatives, likewise we will not abandon no arrested insurgent in the hands of the state and the juridical mechanism.
IMMEDIATE RELEASE OF THE DETAINED
NO CHARGE TO THE ARRESTED
SELF-ORGANIZATION OF THE WORKERS
GENERAL STRIKE
WORKERS' ASSEMBLY IN THE "LIBERATED" BUILDING OF GSEE
Wendesday, 17 December 2008, 18:00
General Assembly of Insurgent Workers
A banner handing from the facade of the building reads:
From labor "accidents"
to the murders in cold blood
State - Capital kill
No persecution
Immediate release
of the arrested
GENERAL STRIKE
Workers' self-organization
will become the bosses' grave
General Assembly of Insurgent Workers


Also, air traffic controllers have gone on strike and the insurrection on the streets continues!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7789215.stm

[Random Precision]

Where's Tom? I want to ask him if this has died down yet.

[Bud Struggle]

Where's Tom? I want to ask him if this has died down yet.

I'm here now! Though I've been in NYC with the wife Christmas shopping for a while, and now I'm making the rounds of Christmas parties, and I do try to refrain from posting anything serious when I've had a couple.

Has it died down? Nope, but I think it's getting marginalized as time goes on.

Here's some interesting pictures.

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2008/12/2008_greek_riots.html

I just don't see what is getting accomplished. From the pictures and the news reports it seems more like some misbehaving kids pretending they are Anarchists than anything seriously political.

Let's see what happens.

[bcbm]

So it's explicitlly banned by the constitution?


Yes. It isn't completely banned, but rather the police can only enter campus if asked to by the administration.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Yes. It isn't completely banned, but rather the police can only enter campus if asked to by the administration.

Thank you.


Has it died down? Nope, but I think it's getting marginalized as time goes on.

Here's some interesting pictures.

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/200...eek_riots.html (http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2008/12/2008_greek_riots.html)

I just don't see what is getting accomplished. From the pictures and the news reports it seems more like some misbehaving kids pretending they are Anarchists than anything seriously political.

Let's see what happens. I'm getting the same impression.

It's getting to that point where the revolution goes forward or they should really just knock it off. It'd suck if this all turned out to be a glorious complaint. It's not as bad if they get rid of private property, if they don't they're just making a mess.

[Black Sheep]

I wouldn't call it a revolt.There is much anger and frustration expressed on education,labor and tax reforms and many scandals from the goverment...

But things have somewhat died down.

[nuisance]

But things have somewhat died down.
No it hasn't. The actions in Greece has become more organised with the assembly in the occupied Polytechinc coordinating much of the action in Athens. Also a 'liberated workers' assembly' has been set up in a occupied union HQ. Things certainly are not dying down, but have started incoroporating the workers' movement into more of the struggle.

[Bud Struggle]

No it hasn't. The actions in Greece has become more organised with the assembly in the occupied Polytechinc coordinating much of the action in Athens. Also a 'liberated workers' assembly' has been set up in a occupied union HQ. Things certainly are not dying down, but have started incoroporating the workers' movement into more of the struggle.

It's a bunch of spoiled children throwing a tantrum and haveing a party--nothing else. Look at the pictures I linked to above--do you see any adults? Look at the designer clothes the kids wear. Do you see any "workers"?

Do you really think this is anything serious?

http://cache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/athens_12_15/a28_17303877.jpg

[F9]

It's a bunch of spoiled children throwing a tantrum and haveing a party--nothing else. Look at the pictures I linked to above--do you see any adults? Look at the designer clothes the kids wear. Do you see any "workers"?

Do you really think this is anything serious?



good job you moron, you put pictures from student protests, what did you expect?:rolleyes:
Of course and the majority is the youths, and the youths are always going to be the majority in such situations!

Fuserg9:star:

[bcbm]

It's a bunch of spoiled children throwing a tantrum and haveing a party--nothing else. Look at the pictures I linked to above--do you see any adults? Look at the designer clothes the kids wear. Do you see any "workers"?

Europeans in generally dress nicer, especially in Greece but it doesn't mean they're "spoiled children," or anything of that sort. College graduates in Greece suffer triple the national unemployment rate and those who do work are usually working too much for stagnant wages as the cost of living goes up and up- its doubled in the past year. And many students are workers too. You're fucking clueless.

[nuisance]

It's a bunch of spoiled children throwing a tantrum and haveing a party--nothing else. Look at the pictures I linked to above--do you see any adults? Look at the designer clothes the kids wear. Do you see any "workers"?

Do you really think this is anything serious?


You really don't read around subjects do you? What about the worker assemblies and workplace occupations workers are carrying out or the letters written by groups of workers to the university assemblies formed? However I suppose you have no knowledge of these incidents.

Do I think anything serious is taking place? Well the Greek State sure does and are having emergency tear gas canisters shipped in from Israel.
You really have no idea.

[Bud Struggle]

good job you moron, you put pictures from student protests, what did you expect?:rolleyes:
Of course and the majority is the youths, and the youths are always going to be the majority in such situations!

Fuserg9:star:

My apologies--please post pictures of the workers protesting and show me my mistake. :)

Also, what was that?
the youths are always going to be the majority in such situations! Indeed.

Where in Marx is THAT stated? That protests start with youths and THEN move to workers? You might wnant to quote me the chapter and verse from Das Kapital that states where that is supposed to happen.

Thanks in advance. ;)

[bcbm]

Where in Marx is THAT stated? That protests start with youths and THEN move to workers? You might wnant to quote me the chapter and verse from Das Kapital that states where that is supposed to happen.

Oh who gives a fuck you hack. Revolutions aren't a fucking formula. Click on the "Politics" section here, and you'll see that workers are occupying union offices and there have been worker led protests, as well as communication between the workers and "youths."

[Bud Struggle]

Oh who gives a fuck you hack. Revolutions aren't a fucking formula. Click on the "Politics" section here, and you'll see that workers are occupying union offices and there have been worker led protests, as well as communication between the workers and "youths."


You really don't read around subjects do you? What about the worker assemblies and workplace occupations workers are carrying out or the letters written by groups of workers to the university assemblies formed? However I suppose you have no knowledge of these incidents.

Oh, I do know about them and know that workers aren't protesting in the streets. I know they are so minor as to be just a blip compared to the RevLeftesque college kids/college drop outs that are protesting.

Did Marx even metion slackers? Ever?

But it's nice to know there's "communications!"

[nuisance]

Oh, I do know about them and know that workers aren't protesting in the streets. I know they are so minor as to be just a blip compared to the RevLeftesque college kids/college drop outs that are protesting.
What makes you think workers aren't protesting? There is. For explicitly worker protesting, read about how the general strike march last wednesday descended into rucking with the cops. Your allegations do not stand up because they are false. The sad thing is that the idea that this is solely 'youths' has been demystified extensively on this forum already, yet you don't even read about that.
Also, what makes you think that these 'students' and 'youths' aren't workers also? Please, some proof of any of points will be greatly appreciated!

Did Marx even metion slackers? Ever?
Relevance? Plus, what's with you and Marx today? You're mad on him.

[F9]

Where in Marx is THAT stated? That protests start with youths and THEN move to workers? You might wnant to quote me the chapter and verse from Das Kapital that states where that is supposed to happen.

Thanks in advance. ;)

Marx?Who talks about Marx?I am not a Marxist if you didnt noticed so far, there are non-Marxists in this site too, called Anarchists!
I dont need to get something from someone who told something before 100 years, i can have my own opinion!
And you want pictures?"Unfortunately" people dont have in their mind to take pictures but to protest!So you wont find a lot of pictures, except some on riots where media are there!

Fuserg9:star:

[Bud Struggle]

Fair enough. Arguing over ther future will get us nowhere.

So lets just see how this ends up, OK? I say it's a lot of smoke and mirrors, Jeff will get elected to head the government and then--nothing, absolutely nothing.

You say what? A Revolution? What? If I'm wrong I certainly will apologize to you guys and everyone else here on RevLeft.

Fusergo, sorry about mentioning Marx to you--I know you are an :reda:narchist.

[bcbm]

Oh, I do know about them and know that workers aren't protesting in the streets.There has been a general strike you stupid fuck.

And you ignored the fact that most of these young people are workers or would be workers if the unemployment rates and stagnation of the economy weren't so bad.

[Bud Struggle]

There has been a general strike you stupid fuck.

There's been general strikes every month like clockwork in Greece for the past 30 years. :rolleyes:

[Plagueround]

Where in Marx is THAT stated? That protests start with youths and THEN move to workers? You might wnant to quote me the chapter and verse from Das Kapital that states where that is supposed to happen.

Thanks in advance. ;)

I adamantly defends Marx's contribution to sociology but do not consider myself a Marxist. Even so, most Marxists recognize that his assertions about how a "revolution will happen" was not to be taken as a blueprint, but as an analysis of the current conditions. If Marx were alive today he would likely have a different interpretation, as conditions have changed.

P.S. How many times must people tell you Das Kapital is a critique of capitalism and not a "revolution handbook" before you stop saying things like that? :p

[bcbm]

There's been general strikes every month like clockwork in Greece for the past 30 years. :rolleyes:

And? It doesn't matter- workers were still involved. Also the occupations that have already been mentioned.



And you ignored the fact that most of these young people are workers or would be workers if the unemployment rates and stagnation of the economy weren't so bad

[Bud Struggle]

I adamantly defends Marx's contribution to sociology but do not consider myself a Marxist. Even so, most Marxists recognize that his assertions about how a "revolution will happen" was not to be taken as a blueprint, but as an analysis of the current conditions. If Marx were alive today he would likely have a different interpretation, as conditions have changed.

P.S. How many times must people tell you Das Kapital is a critique of capitalism and not a "revolution handbook" before you stop saying things like that? :p

I read Das Kapital (not all of it) but it does make a strong point when you ask people to quote from it.

Anyway, I don't see the magic here--do you? I think this will blow over as it always does in such cases. And I still look at these swavely dressed 18 year olds as poseurs. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the way I see them.

Cute though.

http://cache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/athens_12_15/a34_17349929.jpg

[bcbm]

Everyone in Greece dresses nicely. You're just picking on inane bullshit and ignoring real arguments. Piss off already.

[Bud Struggle]

Everyone in Greece dresses nicely.

:lol::lol::lol:

Note the chic scarf of the girl on the right. She in on ALL the right social actions.;)

[bcbm]

And once again...

[Bud Struggle]

And once again...

Well, I predicted what will happen...so what do you think will happen? So you're paying attention to the REAL issues--what's going to happen?

I'm saying nothing is going to happen, maybe a new government. What say you? :)

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

While this is all very romantic and, I have to say, really makes me wish I was in Athens (though I wouldn't mind just about anywhere), this just does seem to be an angry mob and not anything more substantial than a very loud complaint.

I'm worried that they're going to cross a line and a demonstration of force will come down. But that's just me, maybe the ruling class will just keel over. That'd be cool.

[Bud Struggle]

Rise up ye fashionistas
Hear Anarchy's call
Leave you mother's garages and basements
Stop shopping in the mall.

Rise up ye fashionistas
And take your protest to the streets
Put on you Armani sweaters
There's cute guys out there to meet.

Rise up ye fashionistas
And risk a night in jail
Anything for the cause of Communism
As long as you don't break a nail.

Rise up ye fashionistas
Rise up with fire and sword
And take to the streets and protest
Till you change you mind or get bored.

:D

[Wanted Man]

You wrote that? Wow.

Why are you so hung up on a couple of nicely-dressed girls? Is there a lack of them in America? What about the normal-looking European male students (students at a students' demonstration, holy shit batman!!!)? Are they "taking our American womminz" because right-wing Americans are frustrated chumps who couldn't dress up nicely to save their lives? It's a pattern that I always notice with Americans posting in OI. You're just such losers. :mellow:


:lol::lol::lol:

Note the chic scarf of the girl on the right. She in on ALL the right social actions.;)
Everyone wears those things. What's wrong? Do people in your town only wear checkered lumberjack shirts?

As for workers demonstrations:

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_-ywULpyWE2c/SULGapRDReI/AAAAAAAAAcI/IXwGM2QAbBk/s800/strike1012_OmoniSq_Athens_pame3.jpg
ZOMG there are some women there too! We can't have that, only ugly old balding American refrigerator repairmen are considered workers!!11!1

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_-ywULpyWE2c/SULGROa4gRI/AAAAAAAAAbo/kFzmKpKk_ew/s720/Strike1012_Athens_pame6.jpg

[Lord Testicles]

"I'm a parasite and a cause of societies ills, I can tell your class by what you wear, it's awfully scientific. I'd wear a top hat and a tuxedo if I wasn't a delusional nut case" - TomK.

Oh cool, I can troll too, does that make me bourgeois?

[Wanted Man]

It's a load of shit in any case. The idea that pretty, well-dressed blonde girls actually have their own thoughts and independently decide their opinions is always shocking to these people. They think that all good-looking women should be submissive choir girls. Only spiky-haired hairy-armpitted bull dykes go to demonstrations, right TomK? :rolleyes:

[Bilan]

TomK's just having a go because he's thanking Christ he's not in Greece right now.
If he were, might be so unlucky to be up against the wall. :lol:

[Bud Struggle]

It's a load of shit in any case. The idea that pretty, well-dressed blonde girls actually have their own thoughts and independently decide their opinions is always shocking to these people. They think that all good-looking women should be submissive choir girls. Only spiky-haired hairy-armpitted bull dykes go to demonstrations, right TomK? :rolleyes:

Not at all, my point wasn't about how pretty the girls were, I was just picking up on a point of order of 21st Century society--at least in the first world. We are ALL really to well off and too comfortable to REALLY revolt about anything. We may get angry at that kids murder, and rightfully so, and we may want the people big and small that are responsible for such actions to be held accountable, but in the end everyone is to well dressed and too well fed and too comfortable in their ways of doing anything to start, or finish a Revolution.

There may be a Revolution--but it will come from the starving and the bullied of the Third World--not the fashionistas of the first.

As I said earlier: we'll wait to see how things turn out. I think the protests in Greece will end as a load of nothing, you guys seem to thing it's the Revolution (or a minor version thereof.)

Neither of us can predict the future--so we'll have to wait and see.

PS: I'm not being a troll--it's the honored duty of us OIers to respectfully disagree with you RevLefters when we see you going astray. :)


TomK's just having a go because he's thanking Christ he's not in Greece right now.
If he were, might be so unlucky to be up against the wall. :lol: Agreed. Unlike Abe, I'm a bit to jaded in my ways to find any of this romantic.

[Glenn Beck]

Not at all, my point wasn't about how pretty the girls were, I was just picking up on a point of order of 21st Century society--at least in the first world. We are ALL really to well off and too comfortable to REALLY revolt about anything. We may get angry at that kids murder, and rightfully so, and we may want the people big and small that are responsible for such actions to be held accountable, but in the end everyone is to well dressed and too well fed and too comfortable in their ways of doing anything to start, or finish a Revolution.

There may be a Revolution--but it will come from the starving and the bullied of the Third World--not the fashionistas of the first.

You haven't spent much time in the "third world" outside of a tourist capacity, have you? Besides, starving parasite bloated slum dwellers and refugees have a pretty shitty track record at revolution. And there are plenty of stock photos of crowds during the Russian Revolution, some stylin mofo's there. Hell, look at photos of youth supporting the Bolivarian Revolution if you want something more contemporary. You'll find plenty of Brazillian skinny jeans and other expressions of fashion. Don't know why I'm responding to this sincerely, you are trolling, in your own benign and lighthearted way. It seems pretty obvious to me that you're here for amusement, and it tends to be mutual, most of the time. Today your jokes are about as weak as Dennis Miller's

[bcbm]

We are ALL really to well off and too comfortable to REALLY revolt about anything. We may get angry at that kids murder, and rightfully so, and we may want the people big and small that are responsible for such actions to be held accountable, but in the end everyone is to well dressed and too well fed and too comfortable in their ways of doing anything to start, or finish a Revolution.

The protests have spread to issues far beyond the kids murder... as I have already mentioned multiple times. Learn. To. Read.

[вор в законе]

Or just some stupid cops over reaction? A dissapearance after a meeting with the Stazi or the KGB is a brutal murder by the state. Not this idiocy in broad daylight.

It is not an overreaction, it is a murder and it was not done at broad daylight but at 2:06am. Fascist apologetic, I hope the same happens to your kid, we will see how you will moan then. You will come here begging for solidarity while your middle-aged ideological soul-mates will have the same attitude that you have right now.

[TomK mode on]
Oh! So what! A policeman overacted. Millions died under the Nazis or USSR or when you jackoff (spermatozoons) stop shouting already. Burp. [TomK mode off]

[Bilan]

Agreed. Unlike Abe, I'm a bit to jaded in my ways to find any of this romantic.


That's because you're part of the class which perpetuates our oppression, and in turn, will pay for it. ;)

[Bud Struggle]

Today your jokes are about as weak as Dennis Miller's

Insult me all you want but NEVER say anything bad about Dennis Miller. I really enjoy his radio show. :)

And yes I come here for a little amusement--so does everyone else to an extent, but I also come here to learn about Communism and related political positions--and while I don't always agree, I find the idea of the whole world living in financial equality both appealing and strangely disturbing at the same time.

Bottom line is--I am intrigued. I don't intent to troll, and sorry if you think I do, but I certainly don't intend to do the "da/nyet" whenever the Communist Party of RevLeft commands.

I really do think this revolt is a bit of fluff and I really do thing this revolt will come to nothing. Sorry if you disagree, but in the end we'll see who's right, won't we?

And
starving parasite bloated slum dwellers and refugees have a pretty shitty track record at revolution.That's kind of the way it works and that's what the Bourgeoise always count on.


That's because you're part of the class which perpetuates our oppression, and in turn, will pay for it. ;) Who knows how it will turn out? Maybe a hundred years from now on RevLeft.com under the Political Ideology section right next to the Marxists and Trotskyists and Maoists there might be a TomKists section and young communists will be using my evey patch guy avatar as a universal symbol of the freedom of all mankind from tyranny. ;) :)

[Black Sheep]

As for workers demonstrations:

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_-ywULpyWE2c/SULGapRDReI/AAAAAAAAAcI/IXwGM2QAbBk/s800/strike1012_OmoniSq_Athens_pame3.jpg
ZOMG there are some women there too! We can't have that, only ugly old balding American refrigerator repairmen are considered workers!!11!1

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_-ywULpyWE2c/SULGROa4gRI/AAAAAAAAAbo/kFzmKpKk_ew/s720/Strike1012_Athens_pame6.jpg

Mostly CPG syndicate.

[Francis]

Far leftists tend to be rich kids??? Breaking News: Water is Wet.

Working class people don't have the time to seek out alternative political viewpoints. So the stereotype of the quintessential leftist as a rich kid are completely reasonable.

[Bud Struggle]

Far leftists tend to be rich kids??? Breaking News: Water is Wet.

Working class people don't have the time to seek out alternative political viewpoints. So the stereotype of the quintessential leftist as a rich kid are completely reasonable.

A lot of reason for the vitriol directed at people that think the Greek rioters are just a bunch of spoiled kids is that there are a lot of similarities between the Greek demographics and RevLeft's demographics. And a failure of one...well the thought of continuing this metaphor is just too dreadful to contemplate. ;):)

[bcbm]

You've already been shown to be wrong on that point. And who are "people?" Even the Economist was publishing hand-wringing articles about possible insurrections in other western nations.

[Bud Struggle]

You've already been shown to be wrong on that point. And who are "people?" Even the Economist was publishing hand-wringing articles about possible insurrections in other western nations.

I'm "people", for one. :) And you have to admit--you and "yours" are being a bit sensitive here. As far as the Unions in Greece go, it a pretty standard thing for them to go on strike at the drop of a hat. They do that all the time and they are BIG strikes. Nothing new here.

A fast google:


...February 13, 2008 A 24 hour general strike has shut down all public service in Greece for the second time in as many months. Demonstrators have filled the streets of Athens and Thessaloniki....

...March 4, 2008 The Greek bourse said Tuesday that it had suspended trading because a strike by central bank employees hindered the cash settlement of transactions.

The two largest unions in Greece organized strikes on Thursday, May 15, of workers in telecommunications, banking and transportation....

...08 October 2008 GREEK port workers have announced a 24-hour strike starting on Wednesday over the planned privatisation of Piraeus and Thessaloniki box terminals, Fairplay magazine reports...

...October 21, 2008 Greece's largest umbrella union, GSEE, claimed that hundreds of thousands of workers participated in the 24-hour strike to show their objections to the draft budget for 2009, which goes to parliament for debate this week.
Lots more if you look.

The real interesting thing here is the students--that's what makes this strike different. FWIW I know Greece pretty well.

BTW: I will apologize if I am wrong--but I don't see the Revolution starting here.

[bcbm]

I'm "people", for one. http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies/001_smile.gif And you have to admit--you and "yours" are being a bit sensitive here.

I was just countering your initial stupid claims but you ignore all evidence to the contrary and keep commenting tritely on bullshit, so I get a bit frustrated. What do you expect?


As far as the Unions in Greece go, it a pretty standard thing for them to go on strike at the drop of a hat. They do that all the time. Nothing new here.

And its pretty standard for them to occupy their union offices and start organizing outside of the unions?


BTW: I will apologize if I am wrong--but I don't see the Revolution starting here.

Who is talking about the Revolution with a capital R? That's fairly tale nonsense. That doesn't mean nothing interesting could happen here.

[Bud Struggle]

I was just countering your initial stupid claims but you ignore all evidence to the contrary and keep commenting tritely on bullshit, so I get a bit frustrated. What do you expect? Here, I guess one man's bullshit is another man's interesting facts. I was a a HS state final football game last night and saw 12,000 high schoolers pretty freaking pumped up over a first down. Maybe I just kind of take hormones+adrenaline in stride more than most. But I do see RevLeft identifying with the Greek students, you can see that with your treatment of the Difference Engine. After watching what goes on for a while one can almost take the Commie Club's temperature on issues by seeing who they decide to Restrict. ;)


And its pretty standard for them to occupy their union offices and start organizing outside of the unions? No that's outside the usual, but then again, what is usual?


Who is talking about the Revolution with a capital R? That's fairly tale nonsense. That doesn't mean nothing interesting could happen here. Well then you and I agree. Something interesting is happening. Where we disagree is where all this is going in the end.

But, it is interesting, I'll grant you that.

[bcbm]

Here, I guess one man's bullshit is another man's interesting facts. I was a a HS state final football game last night and saw 12,000 high schoolers pretty freaking pumped up over a first down. Maybe I just kind of take hormones+adrenaline in stride more than most.

I don't see how that is relevant to the fact that this is far more than just "spoiled rich kids" in the streets. :rolleyes:


No that's outside the usual, but then again, what is usual?

Non-answer.


Where we disagree is where all this is going in the end.

I haven't speculated how it will end so I don't see how you could disagree with me.

[Bud Struggle]

I don't see how that is relevant to the fact that this is far more than just "spoiled rich kids" in the streets. :rolleyes:
The kids are what is interesting...as I pointed out above, the unions are ALWAYS striking. It's GREECE.


Non-answer. So things are a little different--what's the point?


I haven't speculated how it will end so I don't see how you could disagree with me. Others seem to think this riot MEANS something...maybe not you. When one is arguing against a whole Forum, the lines sometimes get blurred.

Anyway NOTHING will come of this.

[bcbm]

The kids are what is interesting...as I pointed out above, the unions are ALWAYS striking. It's GREECE.

Make up your mind. You're saying this isn't important because its some kids having a tantrum but it goes beyond that. There are widespread issues affecting youth, to say nothing of the even wider dissatisfaction with the government in all sectors.


So things are a little different--what's the point?

I think they're pretty substantially different. Even when the banlieu erupted in 2005 it didn't last this long and it certainly wasn't spreading. There have been very strategic attacks against the state on a large scale, occupations, media takeovers and other things that have not really been seen on this level in any western country in decades. So I think it is a pretty big deal.


Anyway NOTHING will come of this.

I think to say that nothing will come out of this is false from any perspective. If the government is not toppled, things will still change.

[Bud Struggle]

Make up your mind. You're saying this isn't important because its some kids having a tantrum but it goes beyond that. There are widespread issues affecting youth, to say nothing of the even wider dissatisfaction with the government in all sectors. I'm saying the tantrum is interesting. I always said the government will fall and the Socialist will get in--I believe they are down by one vote in Parlaement anyway. Governments's change all the time. this is interesting in the way a reality TV show is interesting--not in any substantive way.


I think they're pretty substantially different. Even when the banlieu erupted in 2005 it didn't last this long and it certainly wasn't spreading. There have been very strategic attacks against the state on a large scale, occupations, media takeovers and other things that have not really been seen on this level in any western country in decades. So I think it is a pretty big deal. I'm not saying nothing is happening, and I'm not saying that it'sn not interesting--I'm just saying that in the end--it's not important.


I think to say that nothing will come out of this is false from any perspective. If the government is not toppled, things will still change. Things always change. And the government will fall and they will get a new government that is more of the same. In the end greece isn't a gig enough player on the world stage to make a bit of difference no matter what they do. They've had socialist governments, they've had conservative juntas--they come and they go in Greece. It's really a pretty poor country that lives on tourism and these riots are driving people away and decreasing revenue.

They are hurting themselves--that's why I think these kids are spoiled brats.

[optimist]

tomk is right ,the result of this situation its not gonna be a revolution maybe not even the fall of this government.maybe things will calm down ,even though there are plans for a lot of protests in the begining of january.but the radicalisation of the people ,especially the youth, is here.since the killing, protests and riots took place in cities of greece that nobody even imagined ,in farm areas like trikala or agrinio in islands like lesvos ,rhodes or corfu.if you see pictures yes maybe they are dressed in fashion ,but they are sons and daughters of farmers and fishermen,and they have the courage to attack police stations although they knew that they could be recognised because of the citys small population.this is not the image of spoiled college kids is it? in municipals of athens protests and marches take place every day,in areas that nothing ever happened for decades,and the people of these areas regardless of age or class encourage and applause the protesters.after the funeral of alexis in nea smirni area or after a high school kids protest in koridallos area the riot police attacked them and neigbourhood people stepped in front of them and confront them.and when i say neighbourhood people i mean even old ladies who took their little dogs out for a walk.people occupies buildings or city halls forming local commitees raising their voices not only for police brutality or state corruption but for local issues also.what followed alexis murder is a big push for the greek society,and this will bring only good in the future.

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Didn't Greece have major riots and strikes a decade or so ago? I think they're like France, they need to have a good riot every so often to clear their heads. Good for what ails 'em. This is just another one of those. Obviously the riots are going to be made more severe by the fact that the cops killed a kid, but cops have killed kids before and capitalism still stands.