More votes for Stalin than Lenin on Russian poll

[Revy]

The poll is called "Name of Russia" it's a vote for the Greatest Russians.

link (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=nameofrussia.ru&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=ru&tl=en)

Stalin is in 3rd place, Lenin is in 6th place.

[Holden Caulfield]

Bukharin is on that list, which suprised me, anyother of the old Bolsheviks included?
or other "communist" figures?

[spartan]

Hardly surprising.

Russians have by and large always prefered autocratic strongmen who give them a decent standard of living rather then a thinker.

[Sam_b]

Hardly surprising.

Russians have by and large always prefered autocratic strongmen who give them a decent standard of living rather then a thinker.

I think there's a lot more to it than that.

The breakup of the Soviet Union in the 1990s gave Russia the dilemma of having a sovereign Russian state for the first time with distinct boundaries, rather than the Union or the Empires. This has given Russia a bit of an identity crisis, which is why we've seen the rise of nationalism and patriotism within the last few years (the Communist Party of Russia, Putin's ideas on Russian patriotism, the Nashi to give but a few examples).

Once Stalin came to the forefront of Russian politics, there was a decisive shift away from internationalism and into the concept of 'Socialism in One Country', which was based very much on patriotic grounds. We can see this even through the posters and propaganda at the time: Prestel Press released a great art book a few years ago called 'Soviet Posters' which is a good resource for looking into this and I reccommend it :)

I don't think it takes too big a jump to equate what the Russian government is saying about nationalism (and supported by the majority of the Russian public I would argue) and what Stalin was saying once he bacame general secretary of the Soviet Union. All that has happened is that the Soviet boosterism of Stalinism has made way for the Russian boosterism of Putin. So I don't think that simply generalising by saying that 'Russians prefer autocrats' is the only reason or answer here.

[turquino]

Hardly surprising.

Russians have by and large always prefered autocratic strongmen who give them a decent standard of living rather then a thinker.
Why would you make a racist statement like that?

Stalin is probably a more respected figure among Russians because it was during his time as General Secretary that socialism was built and WWII was won.

[Vendetta]

it was during his time as General Secretary that socialism was built

Sorry, but that made me laugh.

[spartan]

Why would you make a racist statement like that?


Racist? :confused: :blink: :lol:

I admit that it may have been a bit of a generalisation on my part but racist? Come on!


Stalin is probably a more respected figure among Russians because it was during his time as General Secretary that socialism was built and WWII was won.

Yes and he was a strongman type of leader who "got things done" (as you pointed out in your post, i.e. building Socialism and leading the country to victory in WW2) which the majority of Russians have always seemed to like for some reason.

There isn't anything racist about that!

Hell I didn't even mean it in a bad way I was just pointing out that historically, and currently, the majority of Russians seem perfectly willng to sacrifice democracy for a strong leader who gives them a decent standard of living when compared with the not so distant troubled past!

[Sam_b]

which the majority of Russians have always seemed to like for some reason.

This was, in my view, down to it being painted in Soviet colours and was to instill nationalism. Even look at the name it is still referred to in Russia, the 'great patriotic war'.

[KC]

It probably has more to do with the fact that the majority of the Russian population nowadays is closer to Stalin chronologically, meaning that "Stalin's time" is considered the "good old days" whereas "Lenin's time" isn't really remembered.

Stalin has also permeated national culture much more thoroughly than Lenin, which would also have a profound impact.

Although I highly doubt this poll is valid given the "winners".

[Wild_Fire]

Stalin, I think has all to often been portrayed as an uneducated political administrator that somehow transformed into a pathological killer. His political activity as a young revolutionary is hardly discussed, and he is seen as just a messenger for Lenin.
Russian people have known of his prominent political activism long before the Russian Revolution. They also know him as a man fascinated by ideas and as a voracious reader of Marxist doctrine, of Russian and Georgian literature, and as being fully committed to seeing Russia assume a powerful role on the world stage. For this he is respected greatly by Russians.

[Wanted Man]

That's not so surprising, and not because of the generalising and borderline racist nonsense from spartan (how would you like it if I said that the British people tend to approve of imperialist rape and plunder?).

A lot of old people in Russia still remember Stalin, for one. I think only a few extremely old people would have remembered Lenin, and it wasn't exactly a period of prosperity and stability due to the civil war. The historical figures that surpass both Lenin and Stalin are mostly known for their importance in earlier Russian history. If anything, it's a good achievement for Lenin to be #6. It shows that a lot of people do realise the profound changes that the October Revolution brought.

[spartan]

That's not so surprising, and not because of the generalising and borderline racist nonsense from spartan (how would you like it if I said that the British people tend to approve of imperialist rape and plunder?).


I agree that it was a bit of a generalisation on my part (albeit a partially true one) but borderline racism?

Would you care to inform me when everyone suddenly decided that Russians are a race instead of a nationality?

Also I wouldn't care if you said that British people approve of imperialist rape and plunder as there is no such thing as British people.

Britain is a union of nations (which are all gradually coming round to the idea of independence) not a nation itself.

[Sam_b]

Would you care to inform me when everyone suddenly decided that Russians are a race instead of a nationality?

Oh man, thats desperate. What if its changed to 'xenophobic'?

And isn't most of the Eastern slav 'race' predominately Russian?

[Wanted Man]

I agree that it was a bit of a generalisation on my part (albeit a partially true one) but borderline racism?

Would you care to inform me when everyone suddenly decided that Russians are a race instead of a nationality?
Does it matter? There is no such thing as "race", but there is still racism. What does it matter to you if Russians are a "race"? Do you recognise the existence of "race"?

Your statement is not "racist" in the sense that "you believe that there are different characteristics among the races, which makes some superior and some inferior", but it is a nationally discriminating generalisation. If you want me to use that more accurate term in the future, that's fine, but it isn't any less damning.


Also I wouldn't care if you said that British people approve of imperialist rape and plunder as there is no such thing as British people.

Britain is a union of nations (which are all gradually coming round to the idea of independence) not a nation itself.
Some people think Britons are one people and subscribe to British identity, others entertain thoughts of Scottish, Welsh or English nationalism. That's irrelevant to my point, though. You shouldn't make national generalisations, because it's discriminating.

So anyway: "Most Welsh people voted for the Labour party. This is not surprising, as the Welsh tend to endorse imperialist rape and murder." I think a statement like that is unacceptable, just like it's unacceptable to suggest that Russians prefer authoritarian strongmen over thinkers. You need to get rid of your reactionary baggage.

[Holden Caulfield]

Your statement is not "racist" in the sense that "you believe that there are different characteristics among the races, which makes some superior and some inferior",
ffs he made a generalisation, I've made it myself in essays, Russia has had no history of democracy (except for a brief time under the soviets) and this could be contrived to be reflected with their political culture today in the fact they love Putin the 'strong leader' and vote for Stalin in such polls,

I think this is a bit of of a mountain out of a mole hill

[Devrim]

Bukharin is on that list, which suprised me, anyother of the old Bolsheviks included?
or other "communist" figures?

I scanned it quickly. Aleksandr Aleksandrovich Block, the revolutionary poet, was in the top fifty. Also on the list were Trotsky, Kerensky, and Maria A Spiridonova, the left SR leader. There may have been more, but I only looked quickly.

Devrim

[Glenn Beck]

A lot of old people in Russia still remember Stalin, for one. I think only a few extremely old people would have remembered Lenin, and it wasn't exactly a period of prosperity and stability due to the civil war. The historical figures that surpass both Lenin and Stalin are mostly known for their importance in earlier Russian history. If anything, it's a good achievement for Lenin to be #6. It shows that a lot of people do realise the profound changes that the October Revolution brought.

This. You're fucking delusional if you think the Russian Civil War was a better time to live in for the average Russian than the height of Stalin's leadership. The majority of Russians weren't purged or sent to labor camps, let's be real here. Lenin ran Russia for a brief period of time and it was a time full of change, turmoil, and some of the worst conflict and poverty modern Russia has ever seen. For Lenin to be remembered with fondness at all and be in the top 10 rather than remembered with hostility or apathy shows that Russians still view the legacy of Bolshevism as a positive one. The fact that Lenin is lower on the list than Stalin is due to people's memories and their notability in their minds and not so much their agreement with their actions or ideology.

Try to look at things from other people's perspectives, I highly doubt Russians grow up with the same image of Stalin as Americans and Western Europeans, it doesn't mean they are monstrous lovers of totalitarianism and a barbarous and uneducated people who don't understand the need for liberty.

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

The poll is called "Name of Russia" it's a vote for the Greatest Russians.

link (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=nameofrussia.ru&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=ru&tl=en)

Stalin is in 3rd place, Lenin is in 6th place.
Lenin didn't rule the nation very long.
He led the 1917 Revolution, fought the Civil War untill 1921, but already died in 1924, so his leadership of a stabile USSR didn't last long.
Stalin has led the USSR towards being a main world power.

[DenniZ]

He wasn't even Russian.

Lenin was for the people, Stalin...disgraceful.

[Pawn Power]

How seriously should we take a list that includes Ivan the Terrible?

[communard resolution]

Stalin, I think has all to often been portrayed as an uneducated political administrator that somehow transformed into a pathological killer. His political activity as a young revolutionary is hardly discussed, and he is seen as just a messenger for Lenin.
Russian people have known of his prominent political activism long before the Russian Revolution. They also know him as a man fascinated by ideas and as a voracious reader of Marxist doctrine, of Russian and Georgian literature, and as being fully committed to seeing Russia assume a powerful role on the world stage.

Wasn't he also a fervent Georgian nationalist in his early revolutionary years? Wasn't he almost expulsed from the party due to being ideologically closer to the Bundists than to Marxist internationalism? Didn't he have to write a long apologetic statement on how he had changed his mind in order not to be expelled? And didn't he have all copies of this embarrassing document destroyed once he succeeded Lenin? These are just things I caught here and there, so I'm not claiming - I'm asking. And learning.

I agree with Holden. Spartan's generalisation hardly qualifies as racism. It would be racist to claim that Russians have an intrinsic soft spot for strongmen. As it it, we're speculating how Russian political culture/history may have had an impact on the psychology of the majority. Is it racist to say that a majority of Americans are anti-communist nowadays?

[Sendo]

I think there's a lot more to it than that.

The breakup of the Soviet Union in the 1990s gave Russia the dilemma of having a sovereign Russian state for the first time with distinct boundaries, rather than the Union or the Empires. This has given Russia a bit of an identity crisis, which is why we've seen the rise of nationalism and patriotism within the last few years (the Communist Party of Russia, Putin's ideas on Russian patriotism, the Nashi to give but a few examples).

Once Stalin came to the forefront of Russian politics, there was a decisive shift away from internationalism and into the concept of 'Socialism in One Country', which was based very much on patriotic grounds. We can see this even through the posters and propaganda at the time: Prestel Press released a great art book a few years ago called 'Soviet Posters' which is a good resource for looking into this and I reccommend it :)

I don't think it takes too big a jump to equate what the Russian government is saying about nationalism (and supported by the majority of the Russian public I would argue) and what Stalin was saying once he bacame general secretary of the Soviet Union. All that has happened is that the Soviet boosterism of Stalinism has made way for the Russian boosterism of Putin. So I don't think that simply generalising by saying that 'Russians prefer autocrats' is the only reason or answer here.

wurd.

Undoubtedly Stalin's position stems in no small part from his more nationalistic tendencies. A nationalism which has seen an upsurge for reasons that we don't need to discuss here.