Urgent: Genova - Paris -Athens

[eremon]

Genova - Paris -Athens

source: http://athens.indymedia.org/front.php3?lang=el&article_id=933218

A police car patroling in Exarchia, central Athens, passing through Mesologgiou cobbled street (considered an alternative place with music, bars etc and lots of youth in the streets, so we can easily assume the police car was sent there to provoke and harass the youth), was confronted by a few young people, shouting to the policemen to get lost. There are a few reports that an empty bottle or a brick was thrown to the police car. The cops went out of the car provoking the youth and one of the pigs shot against one 15-16 year old boy, right on the heart, murdering him in cold blood. The name of the boy that stood up to the cops is Alexandros Grigoropoulos. Anarchists and residents gathered, but riot police forces circled the area. There are hundreds of policemen in the streets around central Athens.
Anarchists gather in squats, universities, and central squares at Greece's largets cities to protest and fight back the police...

[Pogue]

This real, sudden news?

[eremon]

Right now in athens combrades from the far left and anarhist movement are concentrating at the centre around Exarchia and in many cities as well.

[Pogue]

So this is a big thing happening right now?

[eremon]

So this is a big thing happening right now?


Yes..in Salonica anarchists attacked against a police station. In Athens fights are playing out this moment between riots and police and demonstrations in Giannena, Salonica, Patras and other big cities..

[Pogue]

Good luck to our comrades. Stuff like that never happens here anymore, last we had was the poll tax riots.

[F9]

Good luck to our comrades. Stuff like that never happens here anymore, last we had was the poll tax riots.

I wouldnt sacrifice a comrades life for having some riots!!!
RIP to the kid:(

[Kukulofori]

I always like to hear about the news in Greece. It's like hearing about my long-lost home planet.

That said, RIP comrade. *raised fist*

[Pogue]

I wouldnt sacrifice a comrades life for having some riots!!!
RIP to the kid:(

But my point was, when shit happens, we never have a reaction to it. Like when Jean Charles De Menzes was killed, very little reaction.

Obviously I don't want to see a comrade killed, but I do want to see militancy and angry reaction to state abuses.

[Harrycombs]

Can anyone post links to more news on this?


By the way, do you really think that cop shot the killed out of cold blood? Have any of you come to realize that some people in the police are people thinking that they are doing what is right by protecting the state? I know police abuse happens, but remember, they are still human beings, and the chances are that cop was scared because people were throwing stuff at him so he meant to fire a shot as a warning, and hit that poor kid. He might have meant to kill the kid, or it might have been an accident from an inexperienced cop. I am sure that the vast majority of cops think they are doing what is right. I'm not saying they are, or that there isn't corrupt ones, I just want to make sure that you wont rule out this possibility.

[TheDifferenceEngine]

Wait, what?

If you go around throwing shit at cops, you'll get shot.

One drunk teenager getting popped for being a dick is something of a tragedy, but hardly a rallying cry for a class war.

[Pogue]

Grats on completeting ignoring the repressive nature of the police and the shit they do in Greece and all over the world.

[Jorge Miguel]

Good luck to our comrades. Stuff like that never happens here anymore, last we had was the poll tax riots.
In Galway? :blushing:

[Pogue]

I don't live in Galway, and I never said that. Its where my family originates from. I live in London. :rolleyes:

[Jorge Miguel]

I don't live in Galway, and I never said that. Its where my family originates from. I live in London. :rolleyes:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cd/Chapeaux_en_peau_de_castor.jpg/391px-Chapeaux_en_peau_de_castor.jpg

[Harrycombs]

Grats on completeting ignoring the repressive nature of the police and the shit they do in Greece and all over the world.

Grats on ignoring arguments brought against you. :rolleyes:

Its as simple as this, a cop is sent to that area, a crowd gathers and throws stuff at him, the cop gets scared and shoots, and a kid dies. There was nothing "oppressive" about it. They were throwing things at the cop. He shouldn't have fired in the crowd, but wouldn't you be a bit scared if a crowd of people were throwing bricks at you? Now, if the kid just annoyed him and he shot him, then that would be terrible, but they attacked him. I also wonder how biased the source is.

[eremon]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7769710.stm

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE4B601720081207?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews

[eremon]

Grats on ignoring arguments brought against you. :rolleyes:

Its as simple as this, a cop is sent to that area, a crowd gathers and throws stuff at him, the cop gets scared and shoots, and a kid dies. There was nothing "oppressive" about it. They were throwing things at the cop. He shouldn't have fired in the crowd, but wouldn't you be a bit scared if a crowd of people were throwing bricks at you? Now, if the kid just annoyed him and he shot him, then that would be terrible, but they attacked him. I also wonder how biased the source is.

No crowd gathered to the aerea..only after the murder.
The 15 y old threw a plastic bottle of water to the policeman then they had a dispute and the policeman suddenly and without reason shotted him right in his heart...!!!!!!!

Spontaneously, anarhists, students and people from the revolutionary left were demostrating in Athens and most big cities in Greece just after the murder.
Rioting during the night, the situation reminds exactly what happened in France when a migrant was shotted and wahat followed the murder. Shock and anger for all of us here in Greece, from everywhere, combrades are talking about and looking for revenge with blood. The conflcts are right now in progress at the centre of Athens while many demonstrations have been announced for today in almost all cities!!!!!!!!! the situation is beyond contol, the police and government are in panic for what is going to happens the following hours, the folllowing days.

[Dean]

Grats on ignoring arguments brought against you. :rolleyes:

Its as simple as this, a cop is sent to that area, a crowd gathers and throws stuff at him, the cop gets scared and shoots, and a kid dies. There was nothing "oppressive" about it. They were throwing things at the cop. He shouldn't have fired in the crowd, but wouldn't you be a bit scared if a crowd of people were throwing bricks at you? Now, if the kid just annoyed him and he shot him, then that would be terrible, but they attacked him. I also wonder how biased the source is.


While there is a lower class, I am in it.
While there is a criminal element, I am of it.
While there is a soul in prison, I am not free.
-Eugene V. Debs

Yeah. I love how totally contradictory you are. The police are not my kind, the people throwing rocks at them are. I might be scared if I join an antagonistic outfit and end up killing kids. No doubt this worthless motherfucker was scared; and yeah, we should have pity on him. But we should not identify with him or defend his actions. Police do not become corrupt to be oppressive or wrong; it is the very nature of the security industry to be oppressive. Every time I called the police for help as a kid, they blamed me. Eventually, you learn that they simply aren't on your side.

Sure, maybe think they are doing what is right. But that can only morally justify their actions - it has no bearing on who we should be aligning ourselves with or who's actions were materially progressive. So the next time I see people throwing bricks at cops, I'll cheer them on. At worst, cops will just be harmed; at best, they might make it clear that a violent, oppressive police system is not acceptable and those who would be cops might change their minds.

[Sasha]

^ hear hear

my thoughts ecactly.

RIP kid, the strugle goes on.

no justice no peace, fuck the police.

[Bilan]

Grats on ignoring arguments brought against you. :rolleyes:

Its as simple as this, a cop is sent to that area, a crowd gathers and throws stuff at him, the cop gets scared and shoots, and a kid dies. There was nothing "oppressive" about it. They were throwing things at the cop. He shouldn't have fired in the crowd, but wouldn't you be a bit scared if a crowd of people were throwing bricks at you? Now, if the kid just annoyed him and he shot him, then that would be terrible, but they attacked him. I also wonder how biased the source is.

Are you a fucking moron?
Seriously, I don't think even hardcore right wingers are going to justify a cop killing a kid because a crowd has gathered, or because the cop is scared.
If I'm scared, that doesn't give me the right to shoot someone, let alone a kid.

[ernie]

Its as simple as this, a cop is sent to that area, a crowd gathers and throws stuff at him, the cop gets scared and shoots, and a kid dies.
Right, because cops are here to protect the peace, right? :rolleyes:


There was nothing "oppressive" about it. They were throwing things at the cop.
Cops are inherently oppressive, even when they're eating donuts.


He shouldn't have fired in the crowd, but wouldn't you be a bit scared if a crowd of people were throwing bricks at you?
I don't give a shit if the cop was scared. They should have killed the pig!


Now, if the kid just annoyed him and he shot him, then that would be terrible, but they attacked him. I also wonder how biased the source is.
Yes, let's respect the "law" and its representatives. After all, they are only imparting justice, right? This system is perfectly fair...

What kind of leftist are you, anyway?

[Harrycombs]

What I'm saying is that cops are human beings. I doubt that many of them would want to shoot a kid in cold blood, so I also doubt that is what happened. They are simply defending a corrupt system, but I'm sure they are doing what they think is right. Forgive me for being skeptical.

Also, lighting car dealerships on fire isn't going to make capitalism go away either, so I really don't see a point to that. This is just going to paint another bad picture of leftists.

[Sasha]

soldiers are human beings as well, but when they shoot you you fight back.
this is war and the filth are the (lackeys of the) enemy.

A.C.A.T. (all cops are targets)

[Red October]

If I was that cop and I had any sense at all, I would have gotten back in my car and driven the fuck out of that neighborhood and never gone back instead of shooting a kid for chucking a rock at me. I don't care what side of politics you're on, that's fucked up. Justifying police murdering leftists is insane. It's a wonder the crowd didn't tear that cop apart right then and there, lucky him.

[Hessian Peel]

Then what's stopping all of you Anarchist warriors from going out tonight, armed to the teeth, and shooting as many cops as possible? It's alright for some yobs with no social base or any meaningful context for their violence to go out and riot but when national liberation movements actually wage REAL warfare against capitalistic imperialism it's a moral outrage and the work of reactionaries. Life-stylist anarchism should wind its collective neck in. All cops are targets me granny.

[Sasha]

hey dickhead, i do support (most) national liberation struggles and so do most autonomist in the netherlands... and i am going out tonight and have an (unrelated to this shooting) protest at the police HC.
so why dont you just go fuck yourself, get back to your bedroom and mastrubate some more over the communist manifesto.

[Hessian Peel]

hey dickhead, i do support (most) national liberation struggles and so do most autonomist in the netherlands... and i am going out tonight and have an (unrelated to this shooting) protest at the police HC.
so why dont you just go fuck yourself, get back to your bedroom and mastrubate some more over the communist manifesto.

But the edition I have doesn't have any pictures?

[Annie K.]

He shouldn't have fired in the crowd, but wouldn't you be a bit scared if a crowd of people were throwing bricks at you?Yes. And a normal person, even a normal cop, would leave the scene, anc maybe come back with reinforcements. If this normal person is in a car, he does not get out.

This guy got out (he should have been so afraid he panicked and exposed himself...) and shot three times. That's a murder.
Even the greek justice think so, he was charged for that.

Maybe he thought it was right to kill this kid. Most criminals thought that. But he did it and he knew what he was doing.

[F9]

Shut up you kiddo, people from all over greece is out of their houses all day long with no sleep, they fight with the cops, there are informations that cop shoot another one with plastical bullet but nothing sure or confirmed, people from all over the world preparing their riot in their citys and you seat behind your pc and whining about Anarchists.
Shut the fuck up, show some respect to the kid who died!

[#FF0000]

Then what's stopping all of you Anarchist warriors from going out tonight, armed to the teeth, and shooting as many cops as possible? It's alright for some yobs with no social base or any meaningful context for their violence to go out and riot but when national liberation movements actually wage REAL warfare against capitalistic imperialism it's a moral outrage and the work of reactionaries. Life-stylist anarchism should wind its collective neck in. All cops are targets me granny.

I guess you've never heard about Greek anarchists, then.

EDIT: I'm also going to go out on a limb here and say you don't know anything about anarchism at all, period. Just a hunch.:mellow:

[Hessian Peel]

I guess you've never heard about Greek anarchists, then.

Not a great deal, no.


EDIT: I'm also going to go out on a limb here and say you don't know anything about anarchism at all, period. Just a hunch.:mellow:

Well I'm afraid you're wrong there.

[DancingLarry]

I came to start viewing police as less than fully human when I realized that police view anyone but the rich and/or powerful as less than fully human, and that having the badge gave them license to abuse those without wealth or power. The moment that police start viewing me and the rest of regular people as fully human, then I'll return the favor.

If you'd ever been jacked up by the cops on a false charge and then have them smirkingly lie in court about what happened and got you convicted for it, you wouldn't be all so "oooo, Officer Bill is our friend!" about the cops.

Bottom line, cops should never have behaved in a manner that gets bottles and stuff thrown at them. If they actually behaved like civil servants it wouldn't, but they don't, they think they are our masters.

[Wanted Man]

From Indymedia:


Cops kill 15 year old student in Greece Zigo - 07.12.2008 03:03

New rules of engagement for capitalist police. You throw a bottle, they shoot to kill. Resist now, or we are next.

Around 10 o'clock tonight (7/12) a police car was making its regular runs around Eksarchia Square in the center of Athens. The area of Eksarchia has always been a focal point for radical leftists and has a tradition of militant political activity. Police presence in the area is always vigilant and the cops who patrol the streets of Eksarchia are always trigger-happy and act like they are in occupied territory.

Some comrades saw the police car and decided to openly declare their opposition to its provocative presence in the square. They threw some stones and a few bottles of water against the pigs and told them to leave. The cops who were riding in the squad-car, are part of a new elite police unit, the “blue-suits”, which has been created for the specific purpose of taking repressive measures against militant demonstrators. They are specially-trained and politically indoctrinated.

Two of them got out of the car. They threw flashbang grenades against those present in the square and one of them pulled his gun and shot in cold blood the 15-year old in the stomach. Apparently, their orders are to respond with full force against anything they might interpret as “provocation”. The youngster died 15 minutes after he was transferred to the hospital. His name was Grigoropoulos Andreas and he is the latest victim in a long list of state-murders.

Comrades are assembling everywhere in Greece to avenge the murder of Andreas and make the bastards pay. Athens will see no peace until his death is vindicated.Something to think about before being stupid enough to actually justify these murderous pigs. Besides, even if the kids were the "guilty" party, it's still absolutely ridiculous to take the pigs' side. Don't you people have even the basest sense of fucking solidarity? Jesus christ.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7770086.stm

The greek anarchists teach a lesson to the rest of the world in how to stand up to pigs.

R.I.P Andreas Grigoropoulos

[RaiseYourVoice]

From Indymedia:

Something to think about before being stupid enough to actually justify these murderous pigs. Besides, even if the kids were the "guilty" party, it's still absolutely ridiculous to take the pigs' side. Don't you people have even the basest sense of fucking solidarity? Jesus christ.
100% Agreed, if you justify police violence, police murder then you should seriously think about which side you are on. At least not on mine.

[Annie K.]

The greek anarchists teach a lesson to the rest of the world in how to stand up to pigs.That's not the first time.

RIP ? He's dead, he's not resting.

[F9]

Comrades the kid is Alexis grigiropoulos and not Andreas!

by the way bbc cnn and etc world media dont listen to them, when we search of them they just say stupid propagandas against Anarchists etc, a lot of them are false!
Whats is being writen here and in indymedias is the true story!Just for you to know!

[RaiseYourVoice]

As a motivation to get your ass out there just a short list of solidarity demonstrations in Germany and Switzerland.


Köln
Montag, 8. Dezember, 16:00 Uhr, Bahnhofsvorplatz

Bern
Montag, 8.Dezember, 18.00 Uhr, Tramstation "Weltpostverein" (3er Tram Saali)

Berlin
Montag, 8. Dezember, 13:00 Uhr, vom Kottbusser Tor zum Griechischen Konsulat

Hamburg
Montag, 8. Dezember, 19:00 Uhr, VV in der Flora (vllt. Demo)

Frankfurt am Main
Dienstag, 9. Dezember, 16.30 Uhr, Bockenheimer Warte



Some more are being planned

[PRC-UTE]

Can anyone post links to more news on this?


By the way, do you really think that cop shot the killed out of cold blood? Have any of you come to realize that some people in the police are people thinking that they are doing what is right by protecting the state? I know police abuse happens, but remember, they are still human beings, and the chances are that cop was scared because people were throwing stuff at him so he meant to fire a shot as a warning, and hit that poor kid. He might have meant to kill the kid, or it might have been an accident from an inexperienced cop. I am sure that the vast majority of cops think they are doing what is right. I'm not saying they are, or that there isn't corrupt ones, I just want to make sure that you wont rule out this possibility.

why cry over spilled pigs?

one dead armed thug of the capitalists is a good start.

[#FF0000]

Not a great deal, no.

Well, first off, Greek Anarchists set police on fire. :mellow:

[Enragé]

RIP Comrade, i hope your death sparks something worth your sacrifice

[An archist]

.

[Hessian Peel]

Well, first off, Greek Anarchists set police on fire. :mellow:

Irish Republicans have shot dead and blown up hundreds of cops. Why aren't leftists salivating over that?

[Wanted Man]

Irish Republicans have shot dead and blown up hundreds of cops. Why aren't leftists salivating over that?
Probably, people will suddenly go on about "nationalist gangsters", and how the unionist cops are suddenly not valid targets, and how you "can't alienate protestant workers"...

In fact, both struggles are commendable in their own rights.

[Sasha]

Irish Republicans have shot dead and blown up hundreds of cops. Why aren't leftists salivating over that?

who says that we dont?

stop trolling....

[Sasha]

Probably, people will suddenly go on about "nationalist gangsters", and how the unionist cops are suddenly not valid targets, and how you "can't alienate protestant workers"...


The RUC was absolutly an legitamit target, and so is the police in the basque country.

dont put words in peoples mouths.

[Wanted Man]

I'm not, it's just a past vein of all the Ireland threads in Politics recently. HP is expressing frustration over the fact that a lot of people condemned the hell out of Irish republicanism as a whole, but simultaneously think it's "cool" when riots start after the fucking pigs in Greece murdered somebody in cold blood. Well, except for two complete idiots who sided with the pigs (they can go format their C: drives for all I care).

Like I said, I personally think that the struggles against the Greek state and against British imperialism are both worthwhile in their own way, even though neither of them are (necessarily) revolutionary.

[Hessian Peel]

I'm not, it's just a past vein of all the Ireland threads in Politics recently. HP is expressing frustration over the fact that a lot of people condemned the hell out of Irish republicanism as a whole, but simultaneously think it's "cool" when riots start after the fucking pigs in Greece murdered somebody in cold blood. Well, except for two complete idiots who sided with the pigs (they can go format their C: drives for all I care).

Like I said, I personally think that the struggles against the Greek state and against British imperialism are both worthwhile in their own way, even though neither of them are (necessarily) revolutionary.

The struggle against any capitalist state is revolutionary and worthwhile, I'm not denying that, it's just I take issue with how Anarchists organise themselves and more generally their ideological make-up. If armed struggle with a real social base of support can't defeat capitalistic imperialism in a Western country, a bit of rioting won't either.

[cyu]

it's just I take issue with how Anarchists organise themselves and more generally their ideological make-up. If armed struggle with a real social base of support can't defeat capitalistic imperialism in a Western country, a bit of rioting won't either.

I'm not sure where you get your impressions of anarchists from. Anarchists come in many forms. Some believe in "propaganda of the deed" (political assasinations), some don't. Some like to break windows, some don't. Some see violence as a valid tactic, others are strict pacifists. Some are atheists, others are Christians. There are even people who call themselves "anarcho-capitalists" after all.

If someone supports the independence of Northern Ireland, I would expect that they would find much in common with anarchists. Anarchists favor decentralized control for the very reason that majority democracy can hurt minorities. If most of the people in the country are English and they are abusing their majority vote to dominate the Irish, then anarchists would support the minority when they want to break off and rule themselves. (At least my kind of anarchists anyway =)

[Pogue]

The struggle against any capitalist state is revolutionary and worthwhile, I'm not denying that, it's just I take issue with how Anarchists organise themselves and more generally their ideological make-up. If armed struggle with a real social base of support can't defeat capitalistic imperialism in a Western country, a bit of rioting won't either.

yes yes, and we've made it clear we take issue with your nationalist bullshit and support for the murder of workers. lets agree to disagree?

[ernie]

If armed struggle with a real social base of support can't defeat capitalistic imperialism in a Western country, a bit of rioting won't either.
I got news for you: we don't know what it takes to defeat capitalism; it hasn't been done yet.

However, I think we can all agree that the rejection (and hatred) of bourgeois "law" is a prerequisite for a successful revolution. What's happening in Greece is a public expression of this. This is clearly a positive thing. At the very least we can say that nothing will be lost by these riots.

We should be showing solidarity with our comrades instead of discussing whether or not the cop "had the right" to kill that kid.

[Pogue]

What would be the best way to express solidarity?

[Sasha]

communique by the Polytechnic School Occupation in Athens, Greece:

THE STATE MURDERS!


On Saturday December 6, 2008, Alexandros Grigoropoulos, a 15-year old comrade, was murdered in cold blood, with a bullet in the chest by a cop in the area of Exarchia.

Contrary to the statements of politicians and journalists who are accomplices to the murder, this was not an “isolated incident”, but an explosion of the state repression which systematically and in an organised manner targets those who resist, those who revolt, the anarchists and antiauthoritarians.
It is the peak of state terrorism which is expressed with the upgrading of the role of repressive mechanisms, their continuous armament, the increasing levels of violence they use, with the doctrine of “zero tolerance”, with the slandering media propaganda that criminalises those who are fighting against authority.
It is these conditions that prepare the ground for the intensification of repression, attempting to extract social consent beforehand, and arming the weapons of state murderers in uniform!

Lethal violence against the people in the social and class struggle is aiming at everybody’s submission, serving as exemplary punishment, meant to spread fear.
It is part of the wider attack of the state and the bosses against the entire society, in order to impose more rigid conditions of exploitation and oppression, to consolidate control and repression. From school and universities to the dungeons of waged slavery with the hundreds of dead workers in the so-called “working accidents” and the poverty embracing large numbers of the population… From the minefields in the borders, the pogroms and the murders of immigrants and refugees to the numerous “suicides” in prisons and police stations… from the “accindental shootings” in police blockades to violent repression of local resistances, Democracy is showing its teeth!

From the first moment after the murder of Alexandros, spontaneous demonstrations and riots burst in the center of Athens, the Polytechnic, the Economic and the Law Schools are being occupied and attacks against state and capitalist targets take place in many different neighborhoods and in the city centre. Demonstrations, attacks and clashes erupt in Thessaloniki, Patras, Volos, Chania and Heraklion in Crete, in Giannena, Komotini and many more cities. In Athens, in Patission street –outside the Polytechnic and the Economic School- clashes last all night. Outside the Polytechnic the riot police make use of plastic bullets.

On Sunday the 7th December, thousands of people demonstrate towards the police headquarters in Athens, attacking the riot police. Clashes of unprecedented tension spread in the streets of the city centre, lasting until late at night. Many demonstrators are injured and a number of them are arrested.


We continue the occupation of the Polytechnic School which started on Saturday night, creating a space for all people who fighting to gather, and one more permanent focus of resistance in the city.

In the barricades, the university occupations, the demonstrations and the assemblies we keep alive the memory of Alexandros, but also the memory of Michalis Kaltezas and of all the comrades who were murdered by the state, strengthening the struggle for a world without masters and slaves, without police, armies, prisons and borders.

The bullets of the murderers in uniform, the arrests and beatings of demonstrators, the chemical gas war launched by the police forces, not only cannot manage to impose fear and silence, but they become for the people the reason to raise against state terrorism the cries of the struggle for freedom, to abandon fear and to meet –more and more every day- in the streets of revolt. To let the rage overflow and drown them!

STATE TERRORISM SHALL NOT PASS!

IMMEDIATE RELEASE OF ALL THE ARRESTED IN THE EVENTS OF SATURDAY AND SUNDAY (7-8 DECEMBER).


We are sending our solidarity to everyone occupying universities, demonstrating and clashing with the state murderers all over the country.


The Occupation of the Polytechnic University in Athens

[Sasha]

and for the dutchies; spontaan-demo tomorow (tuesday) 18.00 den haag centralstation

[Hessian Peel]

What would be the best way to express solidarity?


http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/2701/savetheplanetkillyoursezd7.jpg

[Hessian Peel]

yes yes, and we've made it clear we take issue with your nationalist bullshit and support for the murder of workers. lets agree to disagree?

No, let's not.

[Hessian Peel]

If someone supports the independence of Northern Ireland

I certainly don't.

There are a number of anarchist groups in Ireland and they're all useless.

[Annie K.]

What would be the best way to express solidarity?Burn down the embassy ?

[KurtFF8]

It really depends on where you are if you can show much meaningful solidarity. If you're in some random city in America for example, there's not much you can do, unless your community is very aware of the events and wants to hold some event of course. Other than that, the best thing to do (in my judgment at least) if you're not in a place where you can organize in a meaningful way, is to inform and educate people about the event.

[nuisance]

What would be the best way to express solidarity?
Attend one of the demos in London, like the one today.

[Kitskits]

There is widespread fascist police violence here in Greece. This is very urgent. There was a demonstration of students in Athens. I mean students like 15 - 18 years old. Listen to this. This is very serious, we need solidarity and help here in Greece. Tell your political organisations.

LISTEN TO THIS:
http://papachatzis.tumblr.com/post/6...policeviolence (http://www.anonym.to/?http://papachatzis.tumblr.com/post/63589410/policeviolence)

It is in Greek, there are cops that have ARRESTED students, and the start using violence against them AFTER they arrested them. I know you can't understand the language but If you find someone who can you'll know. I think the cries in this sound clip are very clear.

http://www.tvxs.gr/v1141 (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.tvxs.gr/v1141)

This is a video of a cop chasing a young student and a brave student from behind throws the cop down and they both escape.

Comrades. We need help here in Greece, I think this is obvious from what you've heared and listened.

[Shadowed Intent]

What the Policeman did was wrong; assuming it was a murder, it seems both sides are biased about his intentions, but what about the others that are going to die because of this, I realise the Anarchists think what they are doing is right, but maybe some of the Police that are going to die because of this think what they are doing is right as well.
It's just endless goddamn violence.

[Pogue]

Attend one of the demos in London, like the one today.

I'm in education and employment so I can't easily do that. It'd have to be on a Satruday or in a weekday evening for me to go.

[Sasha]

first of all, the chances are far greater that more of the actvists will die or seriously get hurt than that a cop snuffs it. The cops are shooting plastic bullets and tear gass grenades in the fasces of kids while they are prety safe all packed in in riot gear with only rocks and molly's used against them.
secondly, so what, it comes with the job, if they don't want to get hurt dont go out there on the street. fuck them

[Sasha]

15 years old boy is murdered

Alexandros was our friend, our brother, our son, our classmate and our comrade.The murder of the 15 years old Alexandros was the last straw for all the cases of young peoples' murders either for talking back to the cops, or for not stoppingin a roadblock, or even for being in the wrong place the wrong moment -as Alexandros did.
The murder of the 15 years old Alexandros was not an isolated incident, as the home Secretary stated with audacity. His statement completes practically the announcement of the former minister of Justice (Polydoras) that is a matter of time until a policeman will loose his temper and will shoot. But all the elements and all the witnesses indicate and forces us to think that a single verbal attack may be enough for a cop to loose his temper and shoot.
The murder of young serbian student Bulatovic in 1998 in thessaloniki by a cop, the murder of young Leontidis by a cop at Cassandrou street in 2003, the death of 24 years old Tony Onohua after being chased by civil cops at the area of Kalamaria the summer of 2007, the murder of 45 years old Maria in Lefkimi after the attack of police agaist the people who were struggling against the waste disposal facility, the murder of the pakistan migrant at Petrou Ralli street in Athens the last month, the every day humiliation and violence against each petty transgressors at police precincts all over Greece, shooting against the participants of university students' demonstrations the last year, the violent supreccion of demonstrations, the police's teared gas fueled war, the violence against anyone protesting [..] And, of course, the every day murders of economical and political immigrants by the border patrols. Even the deaths in the freezing agean waters, or the minefields in Evros: all these paint the picture of the greek police.
The murder of the 15yr old alexandros caused a wave of anger and despair from hundreds of thousands youth and citizens of any age. It's not just the disgust and the griefing at the death of a young man. It's the common consience that we all share as brothers, friends and parents, that there is a bullet with our or our beloved's name on it waiting for the ill-fated rendezvouz. We live in a social reality where that rewards the worthless crooks that manipulate us, politicians and involved clergy. Where we all try to survive in a tommorow without a future.
We handed the future and the managment of our society to people without morale nor rules, without respect for mankingd.
In such a reality the murder of the 15yr old alexandros was the last straw that that overfilled our rage.
But rage isn't just an emotion. It is a fight for social justice. A justice that is evident now that as long as it's absent from the social reality there will be no social peace, because with such submission and such social inequality only graveyards can claim social peace.
Just because we are young like alexandros, just because we want to dream with dignity where the state and the authorities seed submission and despair. Because we want to live and not just get by this winter, we are enraged and fight for all these.
So we may not forget Alexandros nor have another dead alexandros from a cops bullet.
So no peace with those that destroy the future of youths, no intervention, no crocodile tears for the hypocritical ministers. Love for life, hope for people. A daily social fight with our classmates, our friends, our families and our comrades for a societas civilorum without guardians for a society of solidarty.
We call every citizen, every student and worker to march with us against the goverment-backed assassins.
We call the schoolmates of alexandros in Thessaloniki to honor the memory of their peer and to abstain from the schools at Tuesday, the day of Alexandros' funeral.
Demonstration at Aristelous on Tuesday 10th of December, the day of the funeral.Thessaloniki 6/12/08
Assembly of the Occupied School of Theater.

PS: the schools are closed all over greece since 8/12. The prisoners of Diavata Prison in Thessaloniki who were on hunger strike a few weeks ago, send a message that they will stand on our side in the struggle. Today (9/12) is the funeral of Alexandros Andreas Grigoropoulos at 3pm in Athens. We wil march in the central streets of Thessaloniki at the same moment. All Greece will be on the streets.

[Shadowed Intent]

first of all, the chances are far greater that more of the actvists will die or seriously get hurt than that a cop snuffs it. The cops are shooting plastic bullets and tear gass grenades in the fasces of kids while they are prety safe all packed in in riot gear with only rocks and molly's used against them.
secondly, so what, it comes with the job, if they don't want to get hurt dont go out there on the street. fuck them

:rolleyes: oh yeah, kevlar is great against Molotov Coktails, apart from that, realise that the Police intend to use Less Than Lethal force, whereas the Rioters are attempting to kill the Police.

[Sasha]

bullshit, i have seen cops getting hit with molotovs quite often, its just a bit of rolling over the ground and some colueges patting them down and they are fine again.
and the only reason the cops are not shooting people on this moment is beacuse they would be shot back.
stop crying over some toched goverment buildings, pigcars and a christmas tree... and make up where your solidarity lies.

[Wanted Man]

:rolleyes: oh yeah, kevlar is great against Molotov Coktails, apart from that, realise that the Police intend to use Less Than Lethal force, whereas the Rioters are attempting to kill the Police.
Is it too much to ask even the basest solidarity from people, even from people who have some kind of ridiculous predisposition to pacifism or to the police themselves? Pick a side or stay out of politics. Better yet, go format your C: drive.

[Shadowed Intent]

Fire does not put out fire, don't you see that this violence will not solve anything?

[Wanted Man]

Why have a picture of V in your avatar, then? Of course, rioting by itself is not an agent for revolutionary change, I just made a post explaining that position in the other thread. But the riots are an expression of fully justified rage against the repressive state machinery of the reactionary ND government. And it's not going to be brought to an end by a bunch of hippies singing kumbayah and handing flowers to the cops who aim at them with live ammunition.

[Herman]

Fire does not put out fire, don't you see that this violence will not solve anything?

It won't, but it's fully justified.

[Sasha]

Fire does not put out fire, don't you see that this violence will not solve anything?

and staying pascifist while under atack will get you killed.

i heard your moral highground got an nice ivory tower on it?

[Shadowed Intent]

V was going against an extremely oppressive Totalitarian Government, and what he did was well planned, not just some riot based entirely on anger, one tragic death will escalate and hundreds or thousands will be dead for nothing.

[Shadowed Intent]

and staying pascifist while under atack will get you killed.

i heard your moral highground got an nice ivory tower on it?

I believe in self defense, this is not self defense, this is unnecessary retribution.

[Wanted Man]

It's not "one tragic death", as if it's an accident. Alexandros was killed in a neighbourhood that is known as a left-wing activist stronghold. This hood is being strongly and provocatively patrolled by an elite police unit that is politically indoctrinated. The kids got into a verbal argument with the cops, who parked their car and got out. The cop consciously aimed at the 15-year-old and shot him in the body, then they coldly got back into their car and drove away.

The Greek state may not be as stereotypically totalitarian as in Orwell or V, but it comes damn close when it comes to repression. It is a rapacious capitalist state, governed by a conservative party. It has antagonised the Greek youth for ages now, with police brutality, neo-liberal education reform, brutality against Albanian immigrants, horrible conditions in prisons, conditions in mental hospitals that mirror Ceausescu's Romania, intentional forest fires to clear land for development, etc.

The calculated and cold-blooded murder of a boy who has done nothing wrong is the last straw. Any time is good to overthrow this state which has already antagonised so many people, but there is no better time than now.

[Shadowed Intent]

Even if all of this is true, do you not at least think they would be better off biding their time and launching an effectively coordinated revolution?

[nuisance]

Even if all of this is true, do you not at least think they would be better off biding their time and launching an effectively coordinated revolution?
Revolutions are spontaneous, you can't simply let momentum go when it is on your side, you need to capitalise on it. Might I add, this not just anarchists and not just youths parcipating, but a wide selection of the Greek population. There has been much anger in Greece building up for awhile now, and this is a tipping point. You should be supporting this mass action against the State, but I take it that you are just another liberal revolutionary poseur. Now, fuck off.

[Sasha]

V was going against an extremely oppressive Totalitarian Government, and what he did was well planned, not just some riot based entirely on anger, one tragic death will escalate and hundreds or thousands will be dead for nothing.

you know that in contrast to what is hapening in greece V for vendetta was fictional right? :closedeyes:

[nuisance]

I'm in education and employment so I can't easily do that. It'd have to be on a Satruday or in a weekday evening for me to go.
You think that others aren't?

[Shadowed Intent]

Revolutions are spontaneous, you can't simply let momentum go when it is on your side, you need to capitalise on it. Might I add, this not just anarchists and not just youths parcipating, but a wide selection of the Greek population. There has been much anger in Greece building up for awhile now, and this is a tipping point. You should be supporting this mass action against the State, but I take it that you are just another liberal revolutionary poseur. Now, fuck off.

I don't know what I am, and I don't much care, I just think that more could be achieved via strategy.

[Shadowed Intent]

you know that in contrast to what is hapening in greece V for vendetta was fictional right? :closedeyes:

No, I didn't know that, thankyou for enlightening me. :rolleyes:

[nuisance]

I don't know what I am, and I don't much care, I just think that more could be achieved via strategy.
The majority of the anarchist movement in Greece are insurrectionists. This is their tactic, and it appears to be working according to the general information coming out of Greece at the moment.

[Enragé]

What the Policeman did was wrong; assuming it was a murder, it seems both sides are biased about his intentions, but what about the others that are going to die because of this, I realise the Anarchists think what they are doing is right, but maybe some of the Police that are going to die because of this think what they are doing is right as well.



everybody thinks that what they do is right, or else they wouldn't be doing it.

Point is, we actually are right, and the police is not. Just like the nazis weren't right, and the Allies were (relatively speaking..)

Also
i'd hope the cops/military are going to be the only ones doing the dying, but it seems more likely its going to be the other way around.


The majority of the anarchist movement in Greece are insurrectionists. This is their tactic, and it appears to be working according to the general information coming out of Greece at the moment.

"We will not lead, we will simply explode."

[nuisance]

i'd hope the cops/military are going to be the only ones doing the dying, but it seems more likely its going to be the other way around.
Based on what? A gun shop has been looted in central Athens and the riots are increasingly getting bigger and more militant by the day. Also the general strike is on wednesday. Talk about timing!

[Enragé]

Based on what? A gun shop has been looted in central Athens and the riots are increasingly getting bigger and more militant by the day. Also the general strike is on wednesday. Talk about timing!


I heard about the looting of the gun shop yes. Did they also have tanks there?

My hope is with the general strike :) tens of thousands rioting make for an uprising, tens of thousands rioting joined by millions striking, picketing (perhaps occupying), is damn close to revolution.

Also i SERIOUSLY hope those who looted the gun shop don't do anything stupid.

[nuisance]

I heard about the looting of the gun shop yes. Did they also have tanks there?
Insurrectionists have been theorising over tactics for along time, guerilla warfare could be adopted. They are not stupid. This however is looking distantly into the future.
Also, who says that the troops will descend onto their own people when called? The police have nortiriously been more loyal to the State and alot of the army munity in times of popular struggle. I wouldn't rule this out quite yet...

[Hessian Peel]

:rolleyes: oh yeah, kevlar is great against Molotov Coktails, apart from that, realise that the Police intend to use Less Than Lethal force, whereas the Rioters are attempting to kill the Police.

And?

[Enragé]

Insurrectionists have been theorising over tactics for along time, guerilla warfare could be adopted. They are not stupid.

Problem is, guerilla warfare is. I find it ironic that it is the anarchists who often drift in the direction of (urban) guerilla, since if anything is elitist, it is starting a self-proclaimed underground liberation organisation to free the people. The proletariate can only free itself.

When the masses are on the side of the guerrilla we need no guerrilla, when the masses are not on the side of the guerilla we should have no guerrilla.


Also, who says that the troops will descend onto their own people when called? The police have nortiriously been more loyal to the State and alot of the army munity in times of popular struggle. I wouldn't rule this out quite yet...


Im not ruling anything out ^^ Also, im not in greece, so i don't have the greatest feel for the situation on the ground.

[Hessian Peel]

Based on what? A gun shop has been looted in central Athens and the riots are increasingly getting bigger and more militant by the day. Also the general strike is on wednesday. Talk about timing!

Interesting.

[Bilan]

And?

Stop trolling this thread.
If you keep your reactionary bullshit up, and continue trolling, there will be repercussions.
The fact that you haven't been banned already for supporting a pig murdering a teenager involved in demonstrations is really only because you're bullshit is being over looked as childish and pathetic.
Stop trolling, and pull your head out of your ass.
Consider this a verbal warning.

[Enragé]

Based on what? A gun shop has been looted in central Athens and the riots are increasingly getting bigger and more militant by the day. Also the general strike is on wednesday. Talk about timing!

I missed this.. interesting.. where did you get that from/how can you know? (the emphasized bit)

[nuisance]

I missed this.. interesting.. where did you get that from/how can you know? (the emphasized bit)
There's alot on indymedia and there's been a blog set up translating news coming out of Greece. There's also a few mainstream outlets giving coverage, particurlary Sky.
www.occupiedlondon.org/blog (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog)

[Wanted Man]

Even if all of this is true, do you not at least think they would be better off biding their time and launching an effectively coordinated revolution?
Well, a revolution shouldn't be conflated with rioting, no matter how large, but it is also not something that is cooked up in back rooms. The riots are an outburst of pent-up, 100% justified rage that has been coming for a long time. The rebellious youth was always going to be the first to fight, the first to physically confront these outrages, before any organised response could be made.

It should be saluted and defended with solidarity, while critically evaluating everything that's going on, and simultaneously organise a response. Which is going to happen. There will be more mass rallies as the week progresses, as well as a general strike on Wednesday. If these actions are successful, and they can keep up the momentum and consistently confront them, it can have the desired effect.

So it's not up to us to sit on the sidelines and act like nay-sayers, regardless of strategic or tactical disagreements. And justification for police brutality (even cold-blooded, pre-meditated murder now!) is out of the question, as it has always been.

[Patchd]

Its as simple as this, a cop is sent to that area, a crowd gathers and throws stuff at him, the cop gets scared and shoots, and a kid dies. There was nothing "oppressive" about it. They were throwing things at the cop. He shouldn't have fired in the crowd, but wouldn't you be a bit scared if a crowd of people were throwing bricks at you? Now, if the kid just annoyed him and he shot him, then that would be terrible, but they attacked him. I also wonder how biased the source is.
Either way, the coppers were sent there most likely to intimidate, in either case they are still our class enemies, the youth throwing material at the cop car is nothing compared to shooting a 15 year old in the heart.

What could have the police done? Called in reinforcements, and got the hell out of there in the meantime.

Kudos to the kids willing to resist police intimidation, and kudos to the workers who have finally realised that the state is actually there to shit on them, and they're willing to do something about it.

[RaiseYourVoice]

A few pages before the question came up: What can we do? Well since its obvious that in most countries leftist organisations calling for either an uprising or a general strike would be nothing more than a joke, information and showing our solidarity should be the most important things.

Some examples:
- In Berlin people occupied the greek cosulate
- In many cities there are demonstrations planned
- In my city we are organising a demonstration with the greek community, printed leaflets, informed the local media.

Its most important that the greek government sees that the eyes are on them, in greece and everywhere else. And while i agree that rioting alone wont bring down capitalism, the situation in greece is far more than "just" rioting. Apart from having a strong anarchist community, greece also has a strong communist party which is part of the struggle. The movement in greece is massive and not just some "elitist" groups trying to smash something.

Following a statement from the communist youth of greece.


Statement by the Press Bureau of the CC of KNE on the murder of the 15-year-old boy



We condemn the murder in cold blood of 15-year-old Alexandros-Andreas Grigoropoulos committed by a policeman in the Exarchia area of Athens.

The leadership of the police forces and the government bear outsized responsibility. This incident is a result of the education and orientation of the security forces which are directed against the people, against the popular and working class movement, against the struggle of the youth.

The repressive measures of the state are fully in line with the attack against the life and the rights of the youth to work, education and stable working time, through the flexible working relations. Their target is to cause fear to the workers and the youth.

The arsons and damages have nothing to do with the mass popular movement. Such attacks legalise violence and authoritarianism. On the other hand, they are used as an alibi by the government of ND as well as by the previous ones, in order to conceal the fact that the target of state repression is the popular labour movement.

The only effective response to the provocations of the government is the organised popular movement; the combative, organised, self-protected mobilisation of the youth. The real causes and the responsibility for this incident should not be concealed as it has been in other cases (e.g. torture of immigrants in police stations, the beating of the student in Thessaloniki etc.).

We appeal to the youth to express its indignation, to protest, to condemn and to make, through its organised struggle, accountable politically and criminally the responsibles for the police attacks.

Schools, universities, TEI (Technical Education Institutes), IEK (Vocational Training institutes) and evening schools should be closed down. The mass organisations should release statements condemning the police attacks and organise mass demonstrations and rallies. The youth along with the popular labor movement should participate organised in:


the demonstration organised by KKE and KNE throughout Greece against the state authoritarianism (in Athens at 18:00 in Omonia)
In the general strike on Wednesday 10/12 along with the class oriented movement, PAME, in the rallies organised in 63 towns throughout Greece (in Athens at 10:30 in Omonia)

[Wanted Man]

The justification for the cops is based on pig and media lies, anyway. Witnesses say that the cops coldly parked the car, got out and shot the kid in the heart. Then they spread the lies about "molotovs", and how the shot was a "warning shot that ricocheted off an object".

Even if the kids were "dangerous", there would be no justification for this kind of thing, that even the worst police states wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole. I remember in 1999, when Feyenoord won the football league, that there was a huge riot of thousands of people, where the cops finally drew their pistols.

The shooting of Alexandros is a murder by the capitalist state, a physical attack on anyone who opposes it. Anyone who can't show solidarity should fuck off and die.

[Wanted Man]

In the Netherlands, there will be two actions. One at 6 PM in The Hague, and one at 10 PM in Nijmegen, both at their respective station squares.

[F9]

Thanks wanted man, at least one voice of logicality!
However RaiseYourVoice i have to say some things about ""k"ke but i do not want any argument with M-L and stalinists, thats not my trying!
"k"ke has drown its mask out and stand against the whole happening in greece, and with continues announcements tries to diverse the people mind, and instead of going to the riots, just wait for the thrown down of government so they vote for "k"ke, "k"ke is now playing just a role to earn more votes in maybe upcoming elections(hope not), and took a complete advantage of the situation!!It takes announcements like some people around here do, ex. we are sorry for kids death etc etc our love to his family etc etc however we are against those actions in the streets because they diverse the working class and they only manage to break some windows!!!!Thats the announcements "k"ke takes in front pages!!They are sick people, far by communists imo they are just bloody authority seekers who could sell their own family to get in authority!!They are fucking hypocrits and they deserve none of our alliance!They stand against us in the streets for their own goals, which is get in the government!

Fuserg9:star:

[Sasha]

rioting scares away the workers? people on the street seem to be saying (at least in this case) the opposite;

"People are angry, disappointed and tired of the government," said Natasa Vlahaki, 32, a studio photographer, as she picked her way between broken glass and debris.
"I was working 12 hours a day for 600 euros a month, and then my boss sacked me just before Christmas. I'm not an anarchist or an extremist but I feel like picking up rocks too."

source (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/3688742/Greek-riots-police-brace-for-more-protests.html)

[Sasha]

In Athens, rioters torched the capital's massive Christmas tree in central Syntagma Square. As the hooded youths moved on, some protesters posed for photos in front of the blaze, and others sang the Greek version of O Christmas Tree.

:cool:

[TheDifferenceEngine]

Although I think the kid who got shot (and his friends) could have avoided it, this is good news.

I wonder where it will end, or if this is just the beginning.

[F9]

Although I think the kid who got shot (and his friends) could have avoided it, this is good news.

I wonder where it will end, or if this is just the beginning.

avoided what?What do you think?They got all over the roads screaming for a cop to kill them?You are insane!

[rebelworker]

So info from people in Greece seems toi be that this is starting to spread way beyond the largely anarchist only event it was on the weekend. Also the violence is being shifted more towards occupations and attacks or really high end targets (the govt, high end hotels ect.).

The Gun shop that was looted was just replicas and swords and airguns. Seperately there was a guiy arrested with a shotgun in his backpack.

So at this point Its the anarchists, other groups on the revolutionary left, excluding the Communist party obviously, base unions, visible minorities, most schools including the teachers....
If the Strike goes as planned this could get serrious.

Also the cops are taunting demonstrators, making guns signs with their hands or really pointing guns.
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg24/rebelworker/GrkCopsGunSigns.jpg

If the general strike takes foo

[nuisance]

Although I think the kid who got shot (and his friends) could have avoided it, this is good news.

I wonder where it will end, or if this is just the beginning.
Being murdered shouldn't be something that you have to consciously avoid.

[Hessian Peel]

Stop trolling this thread.
If you keep your reactionary bullshit up, and continue trolling, there will be repercussions.
The fact that you haven't been banned already for supporting a pig murdering a teenager involved in demonstrations is really only because you're bullshit is being over looked as childish and pathetic.
Stop trolling, and pull your head out of your ass.
Consider this a verbal warning.

Calm down. "And?" as in "and what is wrong with people attacking the police?" What have I said that is reactionary? When did I ever defend the police or the murder of this young man? Coming from the perspective of someone who is concerned with maintaining ideological purity I can understand how it would be difficult for you to grasp the concept of critical support. I support the sentiment of the anarchists and the Greek Left in general, obviously, but that doesn't mean I can't criticise their methods or expose certain double standards.

[#FF0000]

Calm down. "And?" as in "and what is wrong with people attacking the police?" What have I said that is reactionary? When did I ever defend the police or the murder of this young man? Coming from the perspective of someone who is concerned with maintaining ideological purity I can understand how it would be difficult for you to grasp the concept of critical support. I support the sentiment of the anarchists and the Greek Left in general, obviously, but that doesn't mean I can't criticise their methods or expose certain double standards.

I think he had you confused for another member.

[KurtFF8]

The socialist opposition party (which seems like an opportunist party in the midst of this) is criticizing the government for not being able to "deal with" the rioters and protect the safety of the people.

The KKE is also condemning the riots:


The continuous organized and co-ordinated riots that we witness parallel to the huge mobilizations and protests have little to do with spontaneous expression of anger and rage, and more and more take the form of open provocations against the growing wave of protest. In any case the way to react does not lie in retaliatory riots. On the contrary such events are quite accommodating for those that want to impose fear and intimidation to the people, who are trying to prevent the emergence of an organized and mighty mass movement that will be able to to sweep not only the ND and any other anti-peoples’ government, and pave the way for a real change at the level of the power in favour of the people. They will be used as an excuse for the further intensification of anti-democratic and repressive measures and attitudes.

I don't see why the communist and socialist parties aren't trying to encourage a full uprising over this instead of just political demonstrations. Perhaps they feel the riots are premature.

[nuisance]

I don't see why the communist and socialist parties aren't trying to encourage a full uprising over this instead of just political demonstrations. Perhaps they feel the riots are premature.
Because the riots aren't under their control.

[Woland]

''Under their control'' damn, one thing is for sure, we should really work for unity in the left block. Maybe if they could get together, they could actually force some change.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Some folks in this forum seem to have a kind of compulsion to discus issues at great length without bothering to inform themselves about what is actually going on. This is about so much more than the murder of an unarmed minor by the pigs. This is not "baseless rioting" as one member put it. Unfortunately it seems that the elements involved in this conflict which are most organized are reformists at best. It's great that anarchists are so mobilized in Greece, but it would be nice to see them actually get something done.

Good to see folks in other countries protesting at Greek embassies.

[cyu]

What would be the best way to express solidarity?

Assuming the police are operating in communities without the consent of the people living in those communities, then those people should be encouraged to take up arms and police themselves. If outside police continue to insist on coming in, then they should be treated like any other group of armed thugs.

I wouldn't focus on the rank and file of the "official" police though - there's plenty of them to go around and their commanders often see them as cannon fodder. If you want to end oppression, you have to go after those who would order the rank and file officers to come into your neighborhoods. Taking on hierarchical organizations is easy - just go "arrest" (capture) those as high up in the hierarchy as you can - depending on your resources, it may just be the mayor or police chief, but maybe not.

[Sasha]

just came back from an demonstration at the greek ambassy, good militant demo, lots of slogans, mostly aimed at the police ("police!!, fascists!! state terrorists!!", "no justice no peace, fight the police" "bring down the police state, greece is everywhere", they do rhyme in dutch)
+/- 200 people of whom a mayority of greek students with a big support from dutch people, mostly autonomus anarchists (and some socialist as well, shout out!!)
we didn't storm the embassy because we didn't have the momementum but i think this will be just the bigging of protests in holland.
hopefully we are back soon, another demonstration just started in the student city of nijmegen.

[Enragé]

Just got back from a demo in The Hague (Netherlands) at the greek embassy. Approx. 200 people participated, pretty fucking decent considering it was organised in one day :)

patsi, gurunia, dolophoni!

edit: haha :lol: you beat me to it psycho damn you :P

[Sasha]

pictures!!!

foto's van demo bij Griekse ambassade De demo is goed verlopen. Wel veel politie, maar ach. Iedereen is weer veilig terug gekomen.

http://www.indymedia.nl/img/2008/12/56283.jpg
een van de spandoeken

http://www.indymedia.nl/img/2008/12/56284.jpg
vertrek demo vanaf CS Den Haag

http://www.indymedia.nl/img/2008/12/56285.jpg
pliesie begeleiding (ze waren niet echt voorbereid...)

http://www.indymedia.nl/img/2008/12/56286.jpg
aankomst bij Griekse ambassade

http://www.indymedia.nl/img/2008/12/56287.jpg
de straat was afgezet met dranghekken en ME

http://www.indymedia.nl/img/2008/12/56288.jpg
er waren wel een hoop mensen

http://www.indymedia.nl/img/2008/12/56289.jpg
inderhaast opgeroepen ME stond er klaar voor

http://www.indymedia.nl/img/2008/12/56290.jpg
ook achterzijde demo was afgezet

http://www.indymedia.nl/img/2008/12/56291.jpg
demonstranten in de schijnwerpers

http://www.indymedia.nl/img/2008/12/56292.jpg
spandoeken aan de dranghekken

http://www.indymedia.nl/img/2008/12/56293.jpg
op terugweg binnenstad afgezet, stel je voor...

source: http://www.indymedia.nl/nl/2008/12/56282.shtml

[Sasha]

the dutch media (probely under instruction of the cops) are trying to make the protest into a purly greek thing although there was a big dutch crowd (and even some polish, spanish and turkish people) as well.
:sneaky:

[F9]

nice pictures psycho, it looks good especially with those numbers!

patsi, gurunia, dolophoni!
do you know what it means? cops,pigs,killers!it sounds better in greek dont it?

[hugsandmarxism]

my deepest sympathies go to the family of the child

[NickHs]

I can't read the whole thread right now... I should have reported earlier anyway...
Just to make things straight: Alexandros was NOT throwing things at the cops. There was no crowd. I happened to pass by 5 minutes before the incident. What is going on here is amazing! Everyone is reacting, even people not related with politics. Unfortunately the rage is conducted towards small shops etc... We have to be more organized. This morning, high school students organized a well - guarded protest and nothing bad happened. DON'T let the media fool you. Only a small team of scums is actually guilty of destructing small property. The thing we have to focus on is the cold blooded execution of Alexis. Anyway, I know what I'm writing is not coherent but I've down on the streets for three days. I just wanted to inform you.
Greetings comrades, I hope we won't let you down.

[Sasha]

no, we hope that we wont let YOU down, respect for what you are doing over there, if there is anything we can do for you lot (support demo's, ocupations, benefit concerts for legal costs etc etc) let us now.
be strong, be safe comrade, tell your mates we are 100% behind you.

love, peace & petrollbombs
from holland

[hugsandmarxism]

I can't read the whole thread right now... I should have reported earlier anyway...
Just to make things straight: Alexandros was NOT throwing things at the cops. There was no crowd. I happened to pass by 5 minutes before the incident. What is going on here is amazing! Everyone is reacting, even people not related with politics. Unfortunately the rage is conducted towards small shops etc... We have to be more organized. This morning, high school students organized a well - guarded protest and nothing bad happened. DON'T let the media fool you. Only a small team of scums is actually guilty of destructing small property. The thing we have to focus on is the cold blooded execution of Alexis. Anyway, I know what I'm writing is not coherent but I've down on the streets for three days. I just wanted to inform you.
Greetings comrades, I hope we won't let you down.

stay safe, comrade

[RaiseYourVoice]

The socialist opposition party (which seems like an opportunist party in the midst of this) is criticizing the government for not being able to "deal with" the rioters and protect the safety of the people.

The KKE is also condemning the riots:

I dont think condemning is the right word. They say its the wrong tactic to crush the greek system and that the other side will use riots to crack down on the movement. (which is certainly being tried) This is certainly a different view on what to do than other forces have, but far from condemning the riots. This is only what i read from the translated statements so far though.

Apart from the difference in tactical questions you have to see the difference in organisation. If you and your local group decide to join the riots, that is one thing. If a national party actually calls to join the riots, they take responsibility not only for themselves but also for everyone they make join the riots. Sure i agree that communist parties have a sad history of trying to re-direct protest, but they also have a sad history of calling for uprisings with thousands of communists being slaughtered.

Would the greek population, the working class support smashing capitalism now? I cant tell but i have my doubts. So yes if i was member of the Communist Party i would probably call for strikes, mass demonstrations etc. and not to join the riot. joining the riot myself would be the other question.

[hugsandmarxism]

I dont think condemning is the right word. They say its the wrong tactic to crush the greek system and that the other side will use riots to crack down on the movement. (which is certainly being tried) This is certainly a different view on what to do than other forces have, but far from condemning the riots.

Apart from the difference in tactical questions you have to see the difference in organisation. If you and your local group decide to join the riots, that is one thing. If a national party actually calls to join the riots, they take responsibility not only for themselves but also for everyone they make join the riots. Sure i agree that communist parties have a sad history of trying to re-direct protest, but they also have a sad history of calling for uprisings with thousands of communists being slaughtered.

Would the greek population, the working class support smashing capitalism now? I cant tell but i have my doubts. So yes if i was member of the Communist Party i would probably call for strikes, mass demonstrations etc. and not to join the riot. joining the riot myself would be the other question.

Understandable. Riots are effective in their own right but lack an essential organization and control for maximum effect.

btw, RaiseYourVoice, i said something rather stupid on another thread out of anti-fascist anger that you were right to condemn, and would like to thank you for calling me out for it. thanks, comrade

[Enragé]

do you know what it means? cops,pigs,killers!it sounds better in greek dont it?


yea i do, and yes it does :D (and in english it sounds better than in dutch, damn ours really is a shitty language for slogans :P) I learnt it from some greek girl during the demo.

Really awesome slogans by the way! Heard ο λαός θα πεί την τελευταία λέξη - αυτές οι νύχτες είναι του αλέξη! as well in retrospect ^^

oh and
To Kratos Dolophoní!

[Wanted Man]

Just got back from the action in The Hague (after eating, drinking and the long train trip back home...). It was a pretty good action, lot of militancy. The vast majority of the protesters were Greek students in the Netherlands.

[La Comédie Noire]

The government seems to be stuck they can’t come down too hard on the rioters and they certainly can’t talk their way out of this one. I think what we’ll see in the future is a series of Tolkien gestures to cool things off, laws will be passed, Kostas Karamanlis will be out, the cop will be put on trial, and the left center opposition will make a killing at the ballot box. Everybody wins, except your average Greek of course.

But hopefully I end up being pleasantly surprised.


Fire does not put out fire; don't you see that this violence will not solve anything?

Nice little saying Mahatma Intent, but that ignores the fact these riots are much more than just violence. You act as though they are overacting to an accidental shooting of a kid, but what they are actually reacting to is a long line of police repression and government indifference that culminated in the shooting death of a 16 year old kid. There’s a difference, they aren’t just enraged they’re outraged.


Problem is, guerilla warfare is. I find it ironic that it is the anarchists who often drift in the direction of (urban) guerilla, since if anything is elitist; it is starting a self-proclaimed underground liberation organization to free the people. The proletariat can only free itself.

When the masses are on the side of the guerrilla we need no guerrilla, when the masses are not on the side of the guerilla we should have no guerrilla.

Well so far the establishment and all its various mouth pieces seem to be condemning the cop’s actions. I think it’s safe to assume this is because the majority of Greeks support the rioter’s actions or at the very least their sentiments. When you shoot an unarmed kid it looks bad no matter how you spin it.

[Wanted Man]

The government seems to be stuck they can’t come down too hard on the rioters and they certainly can’t talk their way out of this one. I think what we’ll see in the future is a series of Tolkien gestures to cool things off, laws will be passed, Kostas Karamanlis will be out, the cop will be put on trial, and the left center opposition will make a killing at the ballot box. Everybody wins, except your average Greek of course.
But hopefully I end up being pleasantly surprised.
Yeah. Obviously, this situation should not just lead to some token condemnations, new elections and a PASOK government to get back to business as usual, with a "social face".

[Sasha]

Greece, Patras, URGENT!! fascists cooperate with the police now
Date Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:15:02 +0200


There have been confirmed informations about groups of fascists in action with
police forces at the city of Patras. This is happening now it is not a joke! The
media speak of 'civilians' who attack anarchists. ---- We know very well the
concept of 'angry civilians'. Already know faces of fascists from other cities
(including athens) are seen in patras, walking down the streets accompanied by
policemen in civilian clothing, attacking and arresting anyone who looks
suspicious.

At least one student is at the hospital stubbed because of them.
People are reported to hide protesters from these fascist groups who already
have spotted such houses with protesters hidden in there. They stand outside
throwing rocks, yelling "come out or we will come in", threatening the owners.
Since the police forces cannot handle the riot situations along greece,
their right hand is being unleashed, the fascists and neonazis.
Please repost this whenever you can!
_________________________________________
A - I N F O S N E W S S E R V I C E

[Wanted Man]

I was just going to post that. It's really fucked up. Politie, fascisten..?

[Bilan]

Calm down. "And?" as in "and what is wrong with people attacking the police?" What have I said that is reactionary? When did I ever defend the police or the murder of this young man? Coming from the perspective of someone who is concerned with maintaining ideological purity I can understand how it would be difficult for you to grasp the concept of critical support. I support the sentiment of the anarchists and the Greek Left in general, obviously, but that doesn't mean I can't criticise their methods or expose certain double standards.

Ideological purity? Fuck off. We don't tolerate petty support for thuggish pigs, let alone those who have murdered a 15 year old demonstrator. This is a reactionary position to hold - you are defending those whom are muscles of the ruling class in Greece, and everywhere.
This is not a childish 'fuck the pigs' teenager fad, this is reality. This is a realistic socialist position because of the nature of capitalist society.

You are trolling this thread, and making reactionary comments giving more critical support to the fucking pigs than the workers who are fighting this.

So do not persist with this annoying crap.

[Shadowed Intent]

New..uh..news, apparently an autopsy has been done and bullet did in-fact ricochet. official report says that the bullet "is a bit deformed, which showed the bullet touched a hard surface".

[butterfly]

Well one might imagine the official report to be conjured up by officials, who must be feeling a little threatened at this point in time.
I don't think the demonstrations are in any way confined to this single incident in any case.

[Pogue]

New..uh..news, apparently an autopsy has been done and bullet did in-fact ricochet. official report says that the bullet "is a bit deformed, which showed the bullet touched a hard surface".

Whay are you on this forum?

[Shadowed Intent]

Because I have the freedom to be, and because I am interested.

[Woland]

New..uh..news, apparently an autopsy has been done and bullet did in-fact ricochet. official report says that the bullet "is a bit deformed, which showed the bullet touched a hard surface".

1. Still, using live ammunition on kids??
2. Must have been a very precise ricochet... =P

[Shadowed Intent]

1. Still, using live ammunition on kids??
2. Must have been a very precise ricochet... =P

It is called luck.. or the lack thereof.

[Woland]

Which brings us back to 1. Doesn't make the crime or the response any less.

[Shadowed Intent]

Which brings us back to 1. Doesn't make the crime or the response any less.

What did you expect them to have in their guns, Tomato Sauce?

[Pogue]

Because I have the freedom to be, and because I am interested.

But i mean, whose side are you on, whas your ideology? Policeism?

[Shadowed Intent]

But i mean, whose side are you on, whas your ideology? Policeism?

I do not have a side.

[Woland]

What did you expect them to have in their guns, Tomato Sauce?

Yes, tomato sauce. It would have made more sense than the alternative, but I guess thats just the police of today.

[Shadowed Intent]

Although, if I think about it, I believe in a strong, but benevolent government, that is controlled by the elects, not themselves.

[La Comédie Noire]

What did you expect them to have in their guns, Tomato Sauce?


Well if you want a crowd to disperse you don't fire off a gun, that's illegal unless your a cop that is... They probably were pissed at these "punks" and decided to scare them away, unfortunately a kid wound up dead. I mean if they were "threatened" by the group of kids why did they exit their police car and approach them?

I'm not sure how the greek legal system works, but anything less than manslaughter would be a mockery.

[Shadowed Intent]

Well if you want a crowd to disperse you don't fire off a gun, that's illegal unless your a cop that is... They probably were pissed at these "punks" and decided to scare them away, unfortunately a kid wound up dead. I mean if they were "threatened" by the group of kids why did they exit their police car and approach them?

I'm not sure how the greek legal system works, but anything less than manslaughter would be a mockery.

A good point, that is another thing, everyone is calling it a murder, when it is a manslaughter unless it is proven that he intended to shoot the boy.

[To_Be_Determined]

This whole mess seems to have started after a policeman fired his gun as a warning at some kids, (after all police cant exactly scare everyone away by driving around) but the bullet seems to have ricocheted (which was reported by independant experts hired by the family of the deceased) and hit the boy which all these people rioting took as some form of consent to start rampaging around the country.

[Woland]

A good point, that is another thing, everyone is calling it a murder, when it is a manslaughter unless it is proven that he intended to shoot the boy.

What if he missed? Why did he fire in the first place? Why the hell did he take out his gun? Why the hell did they even come to a known leftist area?
All we know is that the boy was killed and it was in its entirety the fault of the police, any way the story goes.

[Shadowed Intent]

What if he missed? Why did he fire in the first place? Why the hell did he take out his gun? Why the hell did they even come to a known leftist area?
All we know is that the boy was killed and it was in its entirety the fault of the police, any way the story goes.

So, the police are now only allowed to patrol right wing areas? :rolleyes:

[To_Be_Determined]

Well, I think he may have felt slightly threatened when thirty or so kids started advancing rather menacingly toward him, while thowing heavy masonry in his general direction... so he attempts to scare them off with a gunshot.

[Woland]

Well, I think he may have felt slightly threatened when thirty or so kids started advancing rather menacingly toward him, while thowing heavy masonry in his general direction... so he attempts to scare them off with a gunshot.

Can you actually prove this? Its not even known for sure if there was any throwing or even a large crowd of rioters at the time when he was there. And then, ''slightly threatened''? Once again, it is a known leftist area- they surely must have -known- there would be resistance. But they came anyway, and then they were ''slightly threatened''?? And then they even started shooting. Still, its just police being police -_-

[F9]

New..uh..news, apparently an autopsy has been done and bullet did in-fact ricochet. official report says that the bullet "is a bit deformed, which showed the bullet touched a hard surface".

What?Stop fucking lieing, the results of the autopsy has yet to be announced, not to tell if the bullet was ricochet!There were eye witnesses at that moment who saw the cop shooting straight the kid.The "autopsy" or what the state will say has no matter, its usual for greece to cover up cops, last time a kid was beat the hell out, he was in hospital for months and cops media etc was saying that he just felt on on his own down!!

[La Comédie Noire]

Well, I think he may have felt slightly threatened when thirty or so kids started advancing rather menacingly toward him, while thowing heavy masonry in his general direction... so he attempts to scare them off with a gunshot.


Actually it was 3 shots and 2 cops, but I see your and Shadow Intent's point. However, don't you feel they acted irresponsibly?

[Shadowed Intent]

Actually it was 3 shots and 2 cops, but I see your and Shadow Intent's point. However, don't you feel they acted irresponsibly?

Well that is obvious, but do you not think it was irresponsible of the kids to attack Police officers?

[F9]

Well, I think he may have felt slightly threatened when thirty or so kids started advancing rather menacingly toward him, while thowing heavy masonry in his general direction... so he attempts to scare them off with a gunshot.

fuck you!The kids were less than 10, they throw nothing to the cop except some bottles of water, the cops got away in the start, and they came back and shoot Alexis on cold blood!
Shit people who dont know at all the situation should shut the fuck up, they say stupid things and the only that they manage is to spill Alexis memory!

[Woland]

I am still suspicious about the whole ''ricochet'' thing...it did hit the kid right in the chest or even heart, so where was he shooting in the first place?? Even a warning shot would be usually aimed up at the sky...You can't even call it irresponsible, its almost ridiculous.

@Fuserg9: sorry, I really do not know a good enough source on the whole story so I have to make logic out of things I do know =/

[Shadowed Intent]

fuck you!The kids were less than 10, they throw nothing to the cop except some bottles of water, the cops got away in the start, and they came back and shoot Alexis on cold blood!
Shit people who dont know at all the situation should shut the fuck up, they say stupid things and the only that they manage is to spill Alexis memory!

Did you see it, were you there, watching the officer shoot him?
I sincerely doubt it.

[To_Be_Determined]

The kids were less then 10? Well, I'm not sure how they would have clashed with police if they were *that* young. "The police have said he died when officers clashed with a mob of some 30 youths". How many mobs of pre-teen attacking police have you see around?

[Shadowed Intent]

I am still suspicious about the whole ''ricochet'' thing...it did hit the kid right in the chest or even heart, so where was he shooting in the first place?? Even a warning shot would be usually aimed up at the sky...You can't even call it irresponsible, its almost ridiculous.

@Fuserg9: sorry, I really do not know a good enough source on the whole story so I have to make logic out of things I do know =/

Perhaps the gun was aimed at an angle towards the sky, but hit a building beside the shooter.

[To_Be_Determined]

Actually, the bullet did bounce off the concrete, so he fired at the ground... so that does show some irresponsibility and lack of intelligence on the part of the officer.

[Woland]

The kids were less then 10? Well, I'm not sure how they would have clashed with police if they were *that* young. "The police have said he died when officers clashed with a mob of some 30 youths". How many mobs of pre-teen attacking police have you see around?

He obviously meant 10 people..

@Shadowed Intent- You can't make such guesses! Once again, a boy was killed and he was killed by the police, nothing can take away the blame, its just -ridiculous- to do so.

[Shadowed Intent]

Actually, the bullet did bounce off the concrete, so he fired at the ground... so that does show some irresponsibility and lack of intelligence on the part of the officer.

Woah, really? that certainly doesn't show much intelligence or common sense, however it still doesn't make it a murder.

[#FF0000]

Perhaps the gun was aimed at an angle towards the sky, but hit a building beside the shooter.

Complete speculation.


The kids were less then 10? Well, I'm not sure how they would have clashed with police if they were *that* young. "The police have said he died when officers clashed with a mob of some 30 youths". How many mobs of pre-teen attacking police have you see around?



Let me clear this up. No one attacked any police. A teenager just got smart with one and started talking shit. At some point the cop decided "fuck this noise" and for whatever reason, pulled out a gun and fired three times. Now the kid's dead from a bullet out of a gun that should have never been drawn, and that was in the hands of a man who should never have had such authority over another human.

Just because this cop might have done it by accident doesn't absolve him. Not only was he wildly irresponsible in shooting at children, but his authority is unjustified to begin with. Everything this cop could ever do or did was wrong, then.

[#FF0000]

Woah, really? that certainly doesn't show much intelligence or common sense, however it still doesn't make it a murder.

It's still a dead teenager, regardless of what the state wants to call it.

[Shadowed Intent]

He obviously meant 10 people..

@Shadowed Intent- You can't make such guesses! Once again, a boy was killed and he was killed by the police, nothing can take away the blame, its just -ridiculous- to do so.

There is no doubt of the blame, only the motives.

[F9]

Shit you assholes(To_Be_Determined (http://www.revleft.com/vb/../member.php?u=18652)&Shadowed Intent (http://www.revleft.com/vb/../member.php?u=18152)) how can you believe that a bullet was fired either in the ground or a nearby building(!) and hit the kid right in the heart?Again FUCK YOU morons!


Did you see it, were you there, watching the officer shoot him?
I sincerely doubt it.

Of course and i didnt you moron, did you?At least i have contacted with a numerous comrades from greece and i now the situation from near!So SHUT UP!


The kids were less then 10? Well, I'm not sure how they would have clashed with police if they were *that* young. "The police have said he died when officers clashed with a mob of some 30 youths". How many mobs of pre-teen attacking police have you see around?

They NEVER clashed with cops you moron, what i am saying all this time?And how much of a stupid should you be to believe the cops?What a moron....
Are you really a leftist?I am convinced that you arent!




Perhaps the gun was aimed at an angle towards the sky, but hit a building beside the shooter.
Actually, the bullet did bounce off the concrete, so he fired at the ground... so that does show some irresponsibility and lack of intelligence on the part of the officer.



Thats two of the stupidest things i ever heard on this forum you stupid kids!

[Shadowed Intent]

Complete speculation.



Let me clear this up. No one attacked any police. A teenager just got smart with one and started talking shit.

Also speculation.


Just because this cop might have done it by accident doesn't absolve him. Not only was he wildly irresponsible in shooting at children, but his authority is unjustified to begin with. Everything this cop could ever do or did was wrong, then.

Yes, it doesn't abslove him, but it also doesn't mean that it gives the rioters the right to murder in return.

[#FF0000]

Also speculation.

Nah, actually. That's what witnesses said happened. I'm pretty sure that's the widely accepted story of how it all played out. Even the Greek state agrees with it.


Yes, it doesn't abslove him, but it also doesn't mean that it gives the rioters the right to murder in return.Yes it does. Just like slaves have the right to kill their masters, people have the right to kill those that want to and already do subjugate them, and commit violence against them on a daily basis. So, that basically makes everyone in government and business a fair target.

[Shadowed Intent]

Shit you assholes(To_Be_Determined (http://www.revleft.com/vb/../member.php?u=18652)&Shadowed Intent (http://www.revleft.com/vb/../member.php?u=18152)) how can you believe that a bullet was fired either in the ground or a nearby building(!) and hit the kid right in the heart?Again FUCK YOU morons!

Calm down.


Of course and i didnt you moron, did you?At least i have contacted with a numerous comrades from greece and i now the situation from near!So SHUT UP!

I never said what I was saying was certain, I merely believe it to be a possibility. Also, it is funny how you tell people who do not agree with you to shut up, you remind me of Bill O'Reilly.


They NEVER clashed with cops you moron, what i am saying all this time?And how much of a stupid should you be to believe the cops?What a moron....
Are you really a leftist?I am convinced that you arent!

Again, you throw insults around, and once again, you haven't got any proof.



Thats two of the stupidest things i ever heard on this forum you stupid kids!

No need to be aegist.

[To_Be_Determined]

Well, some of my comments haven't been entirely serious as you may or may not have been able to tell... but be that as it may, the officer did shoot irresponsivly and is now being charged for manslaugher. And the bullet inside the boy was bent, which means it did indeed bounce, unless his heart can bend metal. And they *never* clashed with police? Then how did the whole situation come about then? And anyway, the riots are more about opposition to the government then this incident, all this did was give what they think is a reason to riot.

[#FF0000]

words

Ah, keep in mind that Fuserg9 is greek and an anarchist, and you guys are basically justifying the police mowing down his comrades.

[#FF0000]

And they *never* clashed with police? Then how did the whole situation come about then?

Yeah. They never clashed with police. At the most, the kids started talking back. Period.

[To_Be_Determined]

Not really. I'm just saying that someone did something stupid, which caused many to over-react in the way of this incident, but not in the way that the government is currently being run. They're grasping onto power, and will hopefully soon be kicked out, which is prabably one of the catalysts for the riots in the first place.

[Woland]

Well, some of my comments haven't been entirely serious as you may or may not have been able to tell... but be that as it may, the officer did shoot irresponsivly and is now being charged for manslaugher. And the bullet inside the boy was bent, which means it did indeed bounce, unless his heart can bend metal. And they *never* clashed with police? Then how did the whole situation come about then? And anyway, the riots are more about opposition to the government then this incident, all this did was give what they think is a reason to riot.


People don't just riot just like that. It -was- this incident and probably numerous ones before this one which have lead to this situation, with the police being as repressive and murderous as they always have been, this whole thing flares up, and its about damn time, but sadly too late for the killed boy. The government is a different thing, a general strike is underway right now, but the police is also nothing but a tool of repression of a government.

[F9]

Well, some of my comments haven't been entirely serious as you may or may not have been able to tell... but be that as it may, the officer did shoot irresponsivly and is now being charged for manslaugher. And the bullet inside the boy was bent, which means it did indeed bounce, unless his heart can bend metal. And they *never* clashed with police? Then how did the whole situation come about then? And anyway, the riots are more about opposition to the government then this incident, all this did was give what they think is a reason to riot.

How can you base an "argument" on what you believe happened, just because the bullet stack inside him!Human body has a lot of bones if you didnt knew so a lot of times bullets can hit and dont "exit"!We are telling you that they were eye witnesses that saw the happening, one of them was just a taxi driver happened to pass from their, and he said what exactly he saw, the fucking cop shooting directly the kid!

[To_Be_Determined]

Well, I'll believe that if you can back it up with evidence, and if you have not noticed, eye witnesses are notorious for being unreliable. Meanwhile, an autopsy has [or is] been done and all evidence shows that the bullet bounced and hit him. It's not exactly out of the question.

[F9]

Well, I'll believe that if you can back it up with evidence, and if you have not noticed, eye witnesses are notorious for being unreliable. Meanwhile, an autopsy has [or is] been done and all evidence shows that the bullet bounced and hit him. It's not exactly out of the question.

Who the fuck told you about an autopsy?The results havent being published yet, how the fuck can you know them?

[To_Be_Determined]

The free press.

[Woland]

...

You're a right-winger, arent you?

[To_Be_Determined]

More to the point, it has already been used in court.

"The officers' lawyer Alexis Kouyias told reporters he believed the killing was accidental because the initial findings of the ballistic examination showed the bullet appeared to have ricocheted before hitting the teenager.
"The bullet is flattened on one side and the point of entry into the student's body is from above going down," he said."


Just a couple of sources

www . nytimes . com / 2008/12/11/world/europe/11greece.html?em
news . xinhuanet . com / english/2008-12/11/content_10486086.htm
www . google . com / hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hg5r_z3hz5TXHpHy8T6tPAgqmdaQ

And I'm not sure that arguing that a bullet ricocheted is right wing politics.

[F9]

Why do you avoid saying what you are ideologically?Have you got something to hide?Are you a revolutionary leftist or not?
And again you are quoting the lawyer(!) of the killer, what did you expect him to say?He did it?No he will find 1000 reasoning's and tell 10000 lies to make his client innocent!And moreover you are giving us links of bourgeois shitty media who try to diverse people thinking and the only thing they do on all subjects is telling lies!No one is going to believe nytimes!!!!

[Woland]

More to the point, it has already been used in court.

"The officers' lawyer Alexis Kouyias told reporters he believed the killing was accidental because the initial findings of the ballistic examination showed the bullet appeared to have ricocheted before hitting the teenager.
"The bullet is flattened on one side and the point of entry into the student's body is from above going down," he said."


Ok, even if we are going to believe this as a source, I find this strange. The policeman who killed the boy surely must have known where he was shooting(or??)..and now his lawyer comes along with this new ''evidence'' and says he believes it was accidental?? This really looks like some government cover up and lawyer lies to try to calm down the riots.

[To_Be_Determined]

Yes, except the information came from an autopsy conducted by independant experts. Not the government. Of course, the results aren't offical, but it is rather unlikely that it will change that much. Besides, there is not much more explanation for a bent bullet (and bones would not bend it in that way).

And what I am ideologically I have not really bothered to pin down, as I have had no real pressing need to. In any case, I do not find myself on the 'right wing' side of the issue, with me supporting for example communism in theory, you would need much different actions than you would otherwise plan in reality. As with everything, ideology doesnt change the fact that humans are flawed, and practically, we cannot live with such rules, but we can attempt to get close.

[Wanted Man]

Greek Translation: Use of fascists by goverment and police
TGL - 10.12.2008 19:25

An eyewitness's account of neonazis & police working side by side in Patras.

http://indymedia.nl/img/2008/12/56320.jpg


http://indymedia.nl/img/2008/12/56321.jpg


http://indymedia.nl/img/2008/12/56322.jpg




[ A somewhat hasty but hopefully rather accurate translation from the original: http://indymedia.nl/images/extlink.gif http://indy.gr/newswire/ma3c7airmata-apo-fasistes-stin-patra-5 ]

To start with, I'd like to inform you that I'm a university student in Patras & what I report below is an eyewitness account of incidents I experienced & not somebody else's
narration/hearsay...

Unfortunately, Patras saw the resurrection of the "ghost" of '91, when Nikos Temponeras was murdered. In that case, the parakratikoi [the other-other hand of the greek state: the activist leg of the greek extreme right wing helping the greek state out in a time honored tradition going at least as far back as the '50s] counter-occupied [the already occupied schools] throughout greece after they had been incited to do exactly that by then-minister of education Vassilis Kontogianopoulos. In one of those [counter-occupations], Nikos Temponeras - a teacher - was killed [with a crowbar...] by the leader of ONNED [the youth organization of Nea Dimokratia - which party is ruling the country today, by the way] Ioannis Kalampokas.

Today, December 9, saw 2 demos in Patras. One of them at 11 in the morning with zero unrest. The other one at 3 in the afternoon. During this latter demo, extensive unrest was notable. I'd like to remark that no vandalism against small, privately-owned businesses took place. The targets were the Germanos [electronics chain store] & WIND [mobile telephony] stores. Nobody's property was damaged.

At some point, certain members of the well-known fascist organization Hrisi Avgi (Golden Dawn), together with plainclothes agents - & not infuriated citizens, as the mass media insist [on calling them] - started throwing rocks & chasing remonstrators with their clubs. For this reason, rudimentary barricades were put together in the streets around the University of Patras department [located there]. These barricades, though, were violated relatively soon with the help of the Riot Squad which kept throwing teargas at large.

When the barricades were torn apart, the people started retreating little by little. In the front, street fights between antiauthoritarians & neonazis-ONNED members. Behind them, members of student collectives formed an outer shell [typically called a "chain" & made up by people holding on to each other & to banners, with the rest inside it; much like a fence] in order to protect themselves. The neonazis were running with clubs & knives towards the demonstrators, while at the same time they were hurling rocks [at them].

When, eventually, the neonazis together with the ONNED members got way too close to the people, those people started running panic-stricken. The "infuriated citizens" were yelling slogans against immigrants, anarchists, & leftists. Slogans such as "Anarchists, sons of whores" etc., together with the fact that, later, they took to the direction of the immigrant shanty town & took out knives (a well-documented way of attack, as far as Golden Dawn members go) made it clear once & for all who these "infuriated citizens," as they are called by mass media, are.

There are even photos in indymedia patras proving that those damaging stores are the same with those chasing after the demonstrators. Here, I'd like to emphasize that those committing arson & causing damages have no relation whatsoever with either the antiauthoritarian circles or any left wing factions. They are mpahaloi [a specific subclass of people subscribing to some vague nihilist ideology - if they subscribe to any ideology at all - & in it for the excitement of wreaking havoc], agents provocateurs, & hooligans...

According to certain information (I haven't crosschecked it), a demonstrator was stabbed & carried to the hospital. As I'm writing this (3 in the morning), the center of Patras is chokefull of armed neonazis & plainclothes agents. Personally, I'm not sleeping at home tonight, because I can't get there...

For one more time, the shadow state acts with the police's blessings. Naturally, it's the government who's behind all this & who's the sole one responsible for this parade of shadow state antics & violence.

The only way to crush terrorism is mas demos... The government's aim is plain to see: to keep the people away from demonstrating by using violence & terrorism. If they wanted to catch the "hooded ones" they'd done it! The mass media play the role of the sycophant repeating inaccuracies...

To the streets, then, to crush terror...
TG

http://indymedia.nl/nl/2008/12/56319.shtml

[Enragé]

THREAT OF FASCIST COUNTER-REVOLUTION

eyewitness report from the city of patras

Tuesday’s demonstration was called by local anarchist groups. Participation was phenomenal by the city’s standards - around 3,000 people (some reports put this number up to 5,000) took the streets of Patras behind the anarchist banners and against state violence. The march cruised through the city; banks were smashed. Meanwhile, the city’s police force had gathered around the main police station in order to protect it.

Toward the end of the demo however the riot police launched a major attack, forcing it to retreat toward the city’s historical university building (the so-called parartima). Soon thereafter, the most incredible attack began: Tens of fascists (that seem to had gathered in Patras from across the country, in a pre-planned joint operation with the police) attacked the demonstration with knives and stones. Co-ordinating perfectly with the police, they continued their attack and, according to some reports, even did some joint arrests. The demonstrators were confronted with the following unbelievable spectacle: They were facing a group of people throwing them police-owned tear gas while chanting “blood-honour-golden dawn” (the name of a nazi group in Greece).

The demonstrators’ block (which only numbered around 500 at the time, as this happened near the end of the demo) was completely torn apart; people were chased all the way into their flats; demonstrators had to seek refuge in flats in 10s and 20s, while the cops and the nazis would smash their windows and try to force entry.

Patras Indymedia reports 26 detentions and 9 arrests. Thankfully, the reports that the fascists would head for the city’s Afghan refugee camp have proven false so far.

What makes the above story even more unbelievable is that the mainstream media report it as the “local business owners” being the ones who attacked the demonstrators, “taking the law into their own hands”. Putting aside the …minor detail that absolutely no local businesses were damaged (only multinational banks, the courts and the police station), these supposed “shop owners” and “respectful citizens” were depicted in media in their balaclavas, holding knives! There was an unbelievable joint police-fascist operation in Patras today and they are trying to cover it up and to claim the public has turned against the demonstrators.

It is crucial to confront their lies and to resist their repression - the future of this movement could depend on this. Please spread the word.

source: http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/


Yes, except the information came from an autopsy conducted by independant experts. Not the government. Of course, the results aren't offical, but it is rather unlikely that it will change that much. Besides, there is not much more explanation for a bent bullet (and bones would not bend it in that way).

WHO GIVES A FUCK!

This is about way more than whether or not the police intended to kil Alexandros.



We are an image of the future!
- Graffity at a university in Athens

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Can I have a list of sources the show the pig drove away then returned?

It for a debate with some ****s

[Woland]

Yes, except the information came from an autopsy conducted by independant experts. Not the government. Of course, the results aren't offical, but it is rather unlikely that it will change that much. Besides, there is not much more explanation for a bent bullet (and bones would not bend it in that way).

-even if this is true- well, we need to look back at the officer- Right after this happened he might have just as well said that he was attacked by a large mob who threw petrolbombs and stuff at him, and now with this he will use this, the poor bastard is just grasping at straws, trying to save his ass. And with your theory, even if the bullet bounced from down, still means the officer fired right in front of the boy. Its the same crime, same conditions, and it really wont do anything, if just making the rioters even angrier. And my comrades are right, who gives a fuck, this happened and nothing can take it back.

[To_Be_Determined]

-even if this is true- well, we need to look back at the officer- Right after this happened he might have just as well said that he was attacked by a large mob who threw petrolbombs and stuff at him, and now with this he will use this, the poor bastard is just grasping at straws, trying to save his ass. And with your theory, even if the bullet bounced from down, still means the officer fired right in front of the boy. Its the same crime, same conditions, and it really wont do anything, if just making the rioters even angrier. And my comrades are right, who gives a fuck, this happened and nothing can take it back.
Yeah, that's true, although *some* people were getting upset over it. But what is really the point is the fact that a rather corrupt government is in power, and it seems to be getting worse, with the police collaborating with fascist groups, while covering it up with the benifit of the media. Either the police will force the demonstrators to lay down arms, or they will be push with even more conviction that the current government needs to fall. Last time I heard, the demonstrations and riots were winding down... so I'm not sure if it will get better or worse, not that it can be properly defined at the moment.

[Woland]

Now that there are fascists??? If there were any fascists on my street right now I know what I would fucking do. Seriously, those bastards must be overjoyed they can finally fight with the left with the police and government behind them, well no shit, antifa will be over this -immediately- and everyone else would really see where this is going. Anyway, general strike just started today, we will see where this goes, but for now SOLIDARITY with our Greek comrades and full support for their cause!

[F9]

facists from all over greece gathered in one and only specific town, patra, where riots arent so powerful like athens, and among with cops they play the role of the "angry" citizen who throws rocks to the rioters because they ruin their jobs!:rolleyes:
Comrades from patra are doing some pretty good job trying to attack them, but also keep there eyes on for cops etc, however the situation is against them, but they currently hold in their barricades!

@Comrade joe there arent any proves you can get in hand, there are only witnesses saying!

[cyu]

New..uh..news, apparently an autopsy has been done and bullet did in-fact ricochet. official report says that the bullet "is a bit deformed, which showed the bullet touched a hard surface".

News flash: Fox enters henhouse. Hen dies. Foxes investigate. The official fox report says the hen died from a fall.

While it's true the hen may have died from a fall, I certainly wouldn't trust any report put out by the gang of foxes.

[TheDifferenceEngine]

News flash: Fox enters henhouse. Hen dies. Foxes investigate. The official fox report says the hen died from a fall.

While it's true the hen may have died from a fall, I certainly wouldn't trust any report put out by the gang of foxes.


Fox News?

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[Pogue]

So you hold no ideology, no beliefs? Come on, who are you more supportive of in this situation? And whats your general ideology? Trotskyist? Anarchist? Marx-Leninist? Maoist? Unalligned socialist?

[AtteroDominatus]

I first read this and thought this was bad, but not really the police's fault. But as more comes into view, it makes you wonder. The cops stepped out of the car, there were two of them, the others were kids. There were numerous shots fired. *shakes head* sickens me. I don't think there's anything wrong with cops as a whole. their job is to protect people. Though i agree, this was insane, something is wrong here. *scowls*

[An archist]

I first read this and thought this was bad, but not really the police's fault. But as more comes into view, it makes you wonder. The cops stepped out of the car, there were two of them, the others were kids. There were numerous shots fired. *shakes head* sickens me. I don't think there's anything wrong with cops as a whole. their job is to protect people. Though i agree, this was insane, something is wrong here. *scowls*
No, the cops' job is to keep the order, not to protect people.

[Pogue]

Woah, really? that certainly doesn't show much intelligence or common sense, however it still doesn't make it a murder.

Seriously, why are you on a revolutionary leftist forum?

[hugsandmarxism]

I first read this and thought this was bad, but not really the police's fault. But as more comes into view, it makes you wonder. The cops stepped out of the car, there were two of them, the others were kids. There were numerous shots fired. *shakes head* sickens me. I don't think there's anything wrong with cops as a whole. their job is to protect people. Though i agree, this was insane, something is wrong here. *scowls*

Prepare for an anarchist shit-storm, that's all I can say. You might just want to take the evening off to do some light reading...

To everybody: This guy's new, and means well, so try to be gentle!

[Eros]

I first read this and thought this was bad, but not really the police's fault. But as more comes into view, it makes you wonder. The cops stepped out of the car, there were two of them, the others were kids. There were numerous shots fired. *shakes head* sickens me. I don't think there's anything wrong with cops as a whole. their job is to protect people. Though i agree, this was insane, something is wrong here. *scowls*

The role of the police is first and foremost to defend the state and therefore capital.

[hugsandmarxism]

Now that there are fascists??? If there were any fascists on my street right now I know what I would fucking do. Seriously, those bastards must be overjoyed they can finally fight with the left with the police and government behind them, well no shit, antifa will be over this -immediately- and everyone else would really see where this is going. Anyway, general strike just started today, we will see where this goes, but for now SOLIDARITY with our Greek comrades and full support for their cause!

Agreed. Solidarity with our Greek comrades is a must.

And, uh... in an unrelated question... is your avatar from Parasite Eve?

[AtteroDominatus]

No, the cops' job is to keep the order, not to protect people.
it is to keep the peace. But, have you ever spoken to a cop before? Ever conversed with one not totally corrupt by fascists or money? I have, I've spoken and even know a fair deal of cops, and they value lives just as much as they value order. why else would they keep order? For themselves, many say, or for the government. Yet, I know many cops are now influenced by other sources. Their job is to do what they are told, to keep riots from breaking out, the prevent uproars and vandalism and crime. Though many have seen the corruption behind it. As with anything, there are just people who fuck it up. I'm not dismissing the killings and murderers, the unjust and just ones, of cops. I am merely saying that police protect people, too.

Like anything, there is room for corruption. Sadly, it has been getting a lot worse lately, hence it getting out of control. It's sick to think that a kid was killed, especially by someone who is supposed to be protecting, not killing.

[Wanted Man]

Attero, what about riot cops? What about elite units formed with the specific intent of patrolling anarchist strongholds, using intimidation? I don't approve of the police in general, but Korkoreas, the cop who shot Alexis (Korkoreas is being indicted for manslaughter, btw), or the riot cops who are pulling their guns on protesters to provoke and threaten them, or the ones who bus fascists over to attack demonstrations... They are part of a system that does more than simply protect property and the law.

[AtteroDominatus]

Wanted, I wish I could list a reason for that. The only thing I can say is that scaring people works a hell of a lot better than asking people to stop. I'm not saying Stalin is like the police (because he was loved, and also different settings.) but he also scared some people into agreeing with him. I don't agree with scare tactics, I'm vehemently against them because I believe there are better ways to try and keep people from doing things. But they do this because it works.

Singling out groups is also an atrocity. Looking from their view, however, anarchists are to them what fascists are to you. These kinds of police cannot ever get along with you, so I see why you dislike cops. In general, I approve of cops. Not everyone can protect themselves. and there sure as hell aren't enough good people around to protect others like they should. Overall, i agree, though. I don't think it's right what they do. Once cops overstep protecting, I think they are no longer doing their job correctly and should be dealt with accordingly, such as this cop, who is being declared to have participated in manslaughter.

[hugsandmarxism]

it is to keep the peace. But, have you ever spoken to a cop before? Ever conversed with one not totally corrupt by fascists or money? I have, I've spoken and even know a fair deal of cops, and they value lives just as much as they value order. why else would they keep order? For themselves, many say, or for the government. Yet, I know many cops are now influenced by other sources. Their job is to do what they are told, to keep riots from breaking out, the prevent uproars and vandalism and crime. Though many have seen the corruption behind it. As with anything, there are just people who fuck it up. I'm not dismissing the killings and murderers, the unjust and just ones, of cops. I am merely saying that police protect people, too.

Like anything, there is room for corruption. Sadly, it has been getting a lot worse lately, hence it getting out of control. It's sick to think that a kid was killed, especially by someone who is supposed to be protecting, not killing.

Perhaps you need a historical lesson on the powers of repression, and how governments specifically target political minorities in order to maintain/expand power. Do a little research on a lovely little organization known as CoIntelPro, and the CIA's Operation Chaos in the 1960's for a useful example. This isn't a simple matter of tragic accidents in a sincere effort to protect the public, but a pattern of coercive power being wielded against the political opponents to that power. I have no doubt that there are some perfectly decent people who wear the badge, but the system isn't an innocent one.

[AtteroDominatus]

Perhaps you need a historical lesson on the powers of repression, and how governments specifically target political minorities in order to maintain/expand power. Do a little research on a lovely little organization known as CoIntelPro, and the CIA's Operation Chaos in the 1960's for a useful example. This isn't a simple matter of tragic accidents in a sincere effort to protect the public, but a pattern of coercive power being wielded against the political opponents to that power. I have no doubt that there are some perfectly decent people who wear the badge, but the system isn't an innocent one.
probably do. I just look to much at individuals, I suppose. That's my problem. Despite the world being fll of shit, I still like to believe there's good in it, though I suppose the point of doing that in today's society should be long gone.

And as for innocent, nothing in this world besides puppies seem to be innocent, and even then you have people training them to be killers. nice world we live in, eh?

[#FF0000]

words

Listen, boyo (or girl-o?), I understand where you're coming from. You like the idea of a police force that exists only to protect and serve "the people". But the fact of the matter is that police do not exist to operate in this capacity. The police in capitalist society are there to protect private property and the ruling class' order.

Now, there might be individual police officers who are great people, and who are confused enough that they believe that they are helping the community as cops. The attitudes of these individual police, however, are irrelevant. Whether they want it or not, or whether they realize it or not, just about every action they make as police officers is an attack on the working class to keep things safe for the ruling class.

[hugsandmarxism]

probably do. I just look to much at individuals, I suppose. That's my problem. Despite the world being fll of shit, I still like to believe there's good in it, though I suppose the point of doing that in today's society should be long gone.

And as for innocent, nothing in this world besides puppies seem to be innocent, and even then you have people training them to be killers. nice world we live in, eh?

Well, we have to understand the system for all of it's flaws, impurities, and malfunctions in order to fix it. The situation isn't good, but it is hardly hopeless either. When the normal channels of having grievances redressed fail, then other actions need to be taken. This is what those people in the streets are fighting about. This is what little Alexandros gave his young life for. Now isn't a time for cynicism, but a time to stand in solidarity with those in Greece who have had dealt with enough repression, and who are fighting against the chains placed by power, and the sycophants and fascists who rush forward with guns and two-by-fours to put them back in their place.

[AtteroDominatus]

Yeah, I know =/
I keep clinging to this faulty hope that people will just realize and start fighting for the good of the people like they're supposed to. I know you're right, I just wish it wasn't so, as I'm sure others are. But then again, If everything we wishes was true, communism would be here already, I suppose. It would be easier if people realized this. Then again, I suppose I'm learning all this now (reading up on all of it) so I know how people could overlook that.

Thanks, I know my idea of what it should be doesn't exist, but I really hope it comes to be something that will protect people, not the rich class and governments.

(also, correct with the parenthesis, I have two X chromosomes and lack a Y one)

EDIT: agreed, hugs'n'marxism. it just gets frustrating because people never end up doing what they are supposed to. Or rather, it seems everything people do for the good of people (thinking they honestly do) is in fact, shaded in gray and only a tool of the higher society.

[hugsandmarxism]

Yeah, I know =/
agreed, hugs'n'marxism. it just gets frustrating because people never end up doing what they are supposed to. Or rather, it seems everything people do for the good of people (thinking they honestly do) is in fact, shaded in gray and only a tool of the higher society.

I understand your frustration. We all do. People simply go about their lives, ignoring all of the injustice, believing all of the lies... but this is no reason to give up hope. Committed Leftists have fought and won against oppression, against reactionary/fascistic forces, and will always have a stake in the battle for human progress. Power is NEVER absolute. This is also a lesson we can learn from our comrades in Greece.

[skki]

Anarchists fight for freedom, IRA fight for an ever-so-slightly different form of servitude. The IRA are the BNP of Ireland.

[Bilan]

Keep the off topic crap out of this thread.
---

Back on topic, Communique from the Greek section of the CWI
(don't agree with this, though)

Revolt in Greece

Police murder of 15 year old boy sparks mass anger
Andros Payiatsos, Xekinima (CWI in Greece)

Last Saturday evening, a group of young school students shouted at a police car that was passing by a cafe in which they were sitting, in the center of Athens, and threw two plastic 0,5 litre water bottles at the police car. The two policemen (special guards) stopped the car some distance away, came out of the car and approached the school students. One of the officers pulled out a gun and fired at the youths, killing one of them. The two policemen then simply turned their backs and walked away!
Greek society is naturally shocked. There was an immediate gathering of thousands of people in the center of Athens in protest. There were demos in all the main cities of Greece on the following day, Sunday. New demos were called for Monday, Tuesday and Wednsday, in the mornings and afternoons. There is massive rage and anger! There is so much tension inside society; due to unemployment and poverty, due to 23 years of continuing austerity policies, due to scandals and corruption and, now, a cold blooded murder, the execution of a 15 year old by the police! This has opened the lid and enormous anger has burst out.
The government tries to argue that this is an ‘isolated incident’ – the usual argument. People are not willing to listen. For the huge majority of workers and youth the policeman acted in the way they are trained. They are seen as racists, extreme right-wingers and liars, who hate social movements and viciously suppress strikes and demos. There are so many incidents to prove this that nobody really needs to be convinced.
The government is in absolute paralysis. With a majority of one MP (151 out 300) the government is inherently unstable. The latest developments could be the trigger to bring it down.
“Down with this government of murderers” is the central slogan with which Xekinima (CWI in Greece) is raising during these events. We are calling for occupations of all schools and universities, and for strikes, with the aim of bringing down the government. At the same time, we call for a left government, based on the forces of SYRIZA (a new left formation made up of about 11 different organizations and parties of the left. Xekinima (CWI in Greece) is one of these) and the KKE (Communist Party of Greece), to aim for power, on the basis of a socialist programme, in the service of the interests of workers, youth and the poor peasants in Greece.
Mass movement can bring about real change

This government can be brought down through a mighty movement of workers and youth, but not through the rioting and massive destruction that we have seen in every city, caused by anarchist groups (in the ranks of which there are many agent provocateurs) in the last few days. Over the last two days, these groups have had a free hand in destroying everything they can lay their hands on. But if this continues, it will play into the hands of the government and the state. Initially, workers could accept a few excesses by these groups, but especially after last night’s riots in all of Greece’s cities, the mood will change. The arguments for “law and order” will begin to gain ground. Thus, these groups, which show no respect to the mass movement and particularly the workers’ movement, will provide the best rescue for a paralysed government and state apparatus to try to regain control.
Only the mass movement and particularly the working class can bring down this government, through mass action. Only the working class can provide an alternative to the government and capitalist system.
Already, the whole of the education sector has come to a halt. There are many occupations taking place. The university teachers have called for a 3-day strike. The primary and secondary education teachers have called for a 2-day strike. Tomorrow, Wednesday 10 December there is a general strike called by GSEE (Greek Confederation of Greek Workers (Greek TUC)). It was initially called to protest against the budget, but with the new developments it will take an entirely different form.
The main question now is how to continue with the movement after Wednesday? The youth can be a decisive factor – they can take the initiative and thus assist the working class to enter the struggle decisively. One of the most important factors is the fact that SYRIZA, as a whole has come out with the slogan, “Down with the government!” This can give a direction to the whole movement and society.

[Shadowed Intent]

The attitudes of these individual police, however, are irrelevant. Whether they want it or not, or whether they realize it or not, just about every action they make as police officers is an attack on the working class to keep things safe for the ruling class.

But you do realise that the Police are working class don't you?

[#FF0000]

But you do realise that the Police are working class don't you?

So? They betray their class by joining the police. It's not as if everything someone of the working class is in the best interest of the working class.

[Bilan]

But you do realise that the Police are working class don't you?

And who's interests are they looking out for and defending?
Are they the muscles of the people, the working class, or the muscles of the bourgeoisie?

[Shadowed Intent]

And who's interests are they looking out for and defending?
Are they the muscles of the people, the working class, or the muscles of the bourgeoisie?

So?, every working class person is helping the people up above, in-fact almost every person in a capitalist society does!

[Bilan]

Its rather self evident that there is a massive difference.

[freakazoid]

I can't believe I'm hearing this!? People are actually defending the police? WTF! :confused: For those going it must of just ricochet, and coming up with wild stories about how that would of happened, why in the world would he even be giving a "warning shot" in a city to begin with!? That would be completely illegal and ignorantly dangerous, those rounds have to go down sometime. Also, if he was firing a warning shot, how did it hit him in the chest? It certainly didn't come from a wall behind him. He would of had to shoot at the ground in front of him, causeing it to ricochet up into his chest, which also would mean he still shot in the kids direction because bullets don't ricochet sideways they still go forwards. And the thing about shooting it up in the air and it happened to hit a building causeing it to ricochet downards and into his chest, are you freaking kidding me? One, that means he was shooting it at a building, which is just mind bogling, and two that means that in order for it to hit the kids chest it faces the same problem as it richeting off of a wall behind the kid. Also ricochets are usually not lethal.

And, oh noes, the people oppresing us might get hurt, :crying:

[#FF0000]

So?, every working class person is helping the people up above, in-fact almost every person in a capitalist society does!

Workers produce for the profit of the capitalists. The police protect the capitalists and their ill-gotten gains. There is a huge difference. I mean, let's take the example of a boss hiring working-class thugs to beat up and intimidate a union leader. Sure, the "hired-help" comes from a working class background, but they're clearly acting against working class interests here.

[Tatarin]

In general, I approve of cops. Not everyone can protect themselves. and there sure as hell aren't enough good people around to protect others like they should.

Of course. Who wouldn't like an objective protective force against crime? But when it comes down to capitalism it is property first and people later. And I think there are plenty of good people around, it is just the reason for them not acting. Time and money, which have become much tighter, is one factor. I'd also expand this with the police agency, psychologically, the ideal state for them would be just that situation - a scared, totally egoistic public. Which leaves the rest to them, and to their power.


Overall, i agree, though. I don't think it's right what they do. Once cops overstep protecting, I think they are no longer doing their job correctly and should be dealt with accordingly, such as this cop, who is being declared to have participated in manslaughter.

That's the thing, he didn't overstep. It's "a part of the job". What if there were no witnesses, only that boy and these two police officers? The state would back them completely. It would have been another "the boy started to reach in his pockets/held object that looked like a gun/was very dark/but now I and my family/my friends" and all the other kiddling and middling in the media.

That's them doing their job, just like any other "protector" of any capitalist state. Take the Scandinavian countries who are mostly considered social democratic, and have a more openly leftist discussion (you can actually read about class in the media, sort of), but even here the police are brutal. Fascists are allowed to walk while anti-racists are stopped. Why, because "last year" there were "some people" not quite "doing it right". Meanwhile, fascists have and are killing innocents, the latest being to burn down a cultural center and burning an appartment of a family who was organized in a union - with the family and its child inside (the family survived).

I am sure that similar cases are found all over the world. This is the sad fact. The actuality that they are right there in Greece, hand-in-hand with fascists who have no regard for human life, let alone for your age - politically active or not.

[#FF0000]

So, let's have a news roundup from Libcom, then.

Photos published of Greek police/fascist collaboration (http://libcom.org/news/photos-published-greek-policefascist-collaboration-10122008)

Fascists have been seen with blunt weapons just chillin' with the police and taking swings at the anarchists. Hm. Hm.

Apparently, the cops have been shooting at other protests as well (http://libcom.org/news/shots-ring-out-athens-riots-continue-09122008)

Aaand cops have been taking shots at students...

And good news for you cop-apologists in the thread. According to Libcom, They might end up calling it an accidental death. (http://libcom.org/news/greece-fears-murderous-night-after-accidental-death-report-10122008)

Disappointing.

I'd like to hear from someone on the ground over in Greece right now. Fuserg9?

[Wanted Man]

I can't believe I'm hearing this!? People are actually defending the police? WTF! :confused: For those going it must of just ricochet, and coming up with wild stories about how that would of happened, why in the world would he even be giving a "warning shot" in a city to begin with!? That would be completely illegal and ignorantly dangerous, those rounds have to go down sometime. Also, if he was firing a warning shot, how did it hit him in the chest? It certainly didn't come from a wall behind him. He would of had to shoot at the ground in front of him, causeing it to ricochet up into his chest, which also would mean he still shot in the kids direction because bullets don't ricochet sideways they still go forwards. And the thing about shooting it up in the air and it happened to hit a building causeing it to ricochet downards and into his chest, are you freaking kidding me? One, that means he was shooting it at a building, which is just mind bogling, and two that means that in order for it to hit the kids chest it faces the same problem as it richeting off of a wall behind the kid. Also ricochets are usually not lethal.
There is only one possibility:

http://bristle.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/blogalexiskiller.jpg

[Pogue]

There is only one possibility:

http://bristle.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/blogalexiskiller.jpg

Did one of the protestors make that just now or is it some old image? Either way thats a brilliant mockery of the pigs and their bullshit.

[Wanted Man]

It's a mock-up of a similar CGI shown on tv, I think. This is the source: http://bristle.wordpress.com/



Greek forensics: The UFO Defence (http://bristle.wordpress.com/2008/12/11/greek-forensics-the-ufo-defence/)

11 December, 2008 · No Comments (http://bristle.wordpress.com/2008/12/11/greek-forensics-the-ufo-defence/#respond)

http://bristle.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/blogalexiskiller.jpg?w=500&h=368
A mock-up of a TV reconstruction of the ‘UFO defence’ that child-killer Epaminondas Korkoneas appears to be relying on, if the statements of his lawyer (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/3703459/Fury-at-report-clearing-Greek-police-over-death-of-schoolboy.html) Alexis Kougias (http://cm.greekhelsinki.gr/index.php?cid=510&sec=192) are to be believed:

This tragedy is the result… of an act by the policeman to fire into the air. The bullet ricocheted, we have an entry wound from above. It proves irrefutably that it was a ricochet.
Occupied London’s On The Greek Riots blog (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2008/12/11/the-murderer-on-alexandros-%E2%80%9Che-had-exhibited-deviant-behaviour%E2%80%9D/#comments) looks like it shall be returning to both the issue of Kougias’s involvement and the broader strokes of the defence offered by the killers of Alexandros Grigoropoulos.
ETA:
I believe this is video of Alexis Kougias outlining his client’s position on Greek television. Translations welcomed.


(Image slightly modified from one scavenged off the internet.)



→ No Comments (http://bristle.wordpress.com/2008/12/11/greek-forensics-the-ufo-defence/#respond)Categories: Activista (http://wordpress.com/tag/activista/) · Beaks & Silks (http://wordpress.com/tag/beaks-silks-%c2%bb-baconbriefsbanged-up-%c2%bb-serious-shizzle-%c2%bb-complexes/) · Big A, Little A (http://wordpress.com/tag/big-a-little-a/) · Cops & Crims (http://wordpress.com/tag/cops-crims/) · NewsBurst (http://wordpress.com/tag/newsburst/) · People (http://wordpress.com/tag/people/) · Politik (http://wordpress.com/tag/politik/) · Yurp (http://wordpress.com/tag/yurp/)
Tagged: Hellenic Republic (http://wordpress.com/tag/hellenic-republic/), Greece (http://wordpress.com/tag/greece/), Alexis (http://wordpress.com/tag/alexis/), Alexandros (http://wordpress.com/tag/alexandros/), Alexandros Grigoropoulos (http://wordpress.com/tag/alexandros-grigoropoulos/), Exarcheia (http://wordpress.com/tag/exarcheia/), Athens (http://wordpress.com/tag/athens/), riot (http://wordpress.com/tag/riot/), insurrection (http://wordpress.com/tag/insurrection/), uprising (http://wordpress.com/tag/uprising/), Greek riots (http://wordpress.com/tag/greek-riots/), anarchists (http://wordpress.com/tag/anarchists/), no warning shots (http://wordpress.com/tag/no-warning-shots/), There Is No Such Thing As Shooting To Wound (http://wordpress.com/tag/there-is-no-such-thing-as-shooting-to-wound/), Epaminondas Korkoneas (http://wordpress.com/tag/epaminondas-korkoneas/), killer cops (http://wordpress.com/tag/killer-cops/), Vassilis Saraliotis (http://wordpress.com/tag/vassilis-saraliotis/), fascists (http://wordpress.com/tag/fascists/), counter gangs (http://wordpress.com/tag/counter-gangs/), pseudo gangs (http://wordpress.com/tag/pseudo-gangs/), agents provocateurs (http://wordpress.com/tag/agents-provocateurs/), parastate (http://wordpress.com/tag/parastate/), Alexis Kougias (http://wordpress.com/tag/alexis-kougias/), UFO Defence (http://wordpress.com/tag/ufo-defence/)

[optimist]

these kinds of drawings were shown in greek tv from the begining by journalists-"parrots" of the police.after the funeral of alexis, in a suburbian neighbourhood, biker-cops(zita team)10 of them start to shoot on air to fright the protesters,even though the riot police was there and this team has nothing to do with demonstrations,and even though the balconies of the surrounding buildings were full of people watching.before videos presented of the event the officials said nothing happened, false rumours.i was there to witness this.and i was there when "quiet" people of a "good" neighbourhood step in front of fully armoured riot police and tried to push them away.for the time being the bullet is taken to science lab to investigate if it was hit on a wall or something before hits alexis.at the same time killer's lawyer a scam of the earth kougias is his name,said that only the court must deside if it was a just killing,and that the cop is a poor working man from a working class district with three kids in the contrary of alexis which was a rich spoiled kid.this statement is like gas in fire at this point.right now a lot of police stations are attacked by students in athens,a lot of high schools occupied and some university schools.

[Wanted Man]

Yeah, I remarked on the disgusting comments of the lawyer before. He made attacks on Alexis' character to justify the murder, even though he's trying to prove that it wasn't a murder! It reminds me of nazi holocaust deniers who deny the gassings, but quite obviously believe that the jews deserved it "if it was true".

[optimist]

with these kind of remarks kougias tries to trigger the feelings of working class right-wing "order loving'" people.the killer is a good family guy who made a little mistake and now the establishment (media ,politicians)are after him defending richmen kids.these kind of talks are common between conservative working class,''all the protesters are spoiled kids and rich etc etc'',even though their sons and daughters are the ones who react on the streets

[Wanted Man]

I read that in the same way, the media also keep depicting the riots while ignoring the general strike, the mass manifestations, etc. Also with the aim of putting up the "middle class" against any progressive movements. They even showed the fascist scum who attacked demonstrations with knives as "angry shopkeepers".

[Sasha]

Killer of Alex member of fascist organisation Golden Dawn
anarchia - 11.12.2008 15:36

The cop who murdered Alexis Grigoropoulos is named Korkoneas and comes from Kalamata. He has a ultra right wing biography and family tradition. As per Indymedia Athens, his family environment and family members members, were participating in the right wing ProNAZI gangs during the German occupation in Greece (WWII), collaborating with the Faascists. (Tagmatasfalites). He is member of the Golden Dawn, a greek fascist organisation which also carried members to the city of Patras to fight anarchists with knives and sticks in the last days.

http://www.indymedia.nl/img/2008/12/56364.jpg



The Policeman, murderer of Alexis Grigoropoulos, named Korkoneas comes from Kalamata , from ultra right wing family tradition. As per Indymedia Athens, his family environment and family members members, were participating in the right wing ProNAZI gangs during the German occupation in Greece (WWII), collaborating with the NAZI. (Tagmatasfalites). According to Indymedia Athens, his family members after the war and during the Greek civil war joined criminal gangs of “Maganas” and “Katsarea” that massacred the region of Kalamata after the period of Várkiza agreement. The killer Korkoneas was a member of the Core action group of the Pro NAZI Golden Dawn ( Hrysi Avgi) in Kalamata in the late 80s and early 90s. Then joined the Special army Forces (LOK) and in 1999 was one of the first that was recruited to the newly established body of “Special Guards” a special body within the Greek Police. He served in Exarhia and was of those who had the most provocative behaviour for years. The police and especially the MAT and Special Guards have close relations with Fascist organisations and Pro Nazis.
also refer to ..>>

gar
Homepage: http://www.indymedia.nl/images/extlink.gif http://garizo.blogspot.com/2008/12/ember-of-pro-nazi-organisation-killer.html

[#FF0000]

Oh shit. The plot thickens. Very interesting development.

[Killfacer]

I don't think his family connections to the german occupation of greece are that interesting, he cannot help who he descended from.

However the fact he is a member of a fascist organisation is interesting. Is this just speculation or is their evidence?

[hugsandmarxism]

Why am I not surprised?

[cyu]

So?, every working class person is helping the people up above, in-fact almost every person in a capitalist society does!


Yes, indeed. Sometimes you can't help it, even if you don't like it. Just like a slave is helping his master, even if he doesn't want to be a slave and hates his master's guts. There are people who join the armed forces because there just aren't a lot of job opportunities available. After they join, they are then subjected to an indoctrination program to ensure their loyalty to the ruling class. They are then used as pawns by the politicians. The same is often true of police.

I support the concept of police, but since I'm an anarchist, I believe everyone in society should be part of the police... and they wouldn't be taking orders from a police chief - instead they would just be protecting the local democratic decisions they themselves made.

[Eros]

Oh shit. The plot thickens. Very interesting development.

Indeed. If the murder was an accident I'll eat this keyboard.

[Sasha]

we had tonight in amsterdam an action against "the miljonair fair" an discusting party for the super super rich, we blokaded the entrance for a while with classwar banners and bunch of limousines got attacked with paintbombs.
we dedicated this action to alexandros and a lot of the slogans where calls to spread the revolt.

[Shadowed Intent]

I support the concept of police, but since I'm an anarchist, I believe everyone in society should be part of the police... and they wouldn't be taking orders from a police chief - instead they would just be protecting the local democratic decisions they themselves made.

I quite like this concept, but how would they do this?

[Woland]

I quite like this concept, but how would they do this?

Heh, just make sure only radical leftists would be allowed to be the police

[TheDifferenceEngine]

I take back everything I said, I was assuming that the police in greece had at least a modicum of restraint and professionalism; but now it appears that they allow facists into their ranks to kill and opress as they please!


Καταστρέψει το κράτος!

[#FF0000]

I take back everything I said, I was assuming that the police in greece had at least a modicum of restraint and professionalism; but now it appears that they allow facists into their ranks to kill and opress as they please!


Καταστρέψει το κράτος!


Good save :tt2:

[cyu]

I quite like this concept, but how would they do this?

I don't understand your question. How does everyone become part of the police? What's the difference between a police officer and a non-police officer? A bit of combat training, a discussion of how to engage threats to other people's freedoms, and the right to carry weapons. I don't see why everyone can't have this - it would be just a part of learning to live in anarchist society - like an American might learn about the three branches of government.

I think that part about "a discussion of how to engage threats to other people's freedoms" is the part that is most ripe for corruption, which is why the discussion needs to be as open and free from hierarchy as possible.

[bcbm]

I take back everything I said, I was assuming that the police in greece had at least a modicum of restraint and professionalismNo police in any bourgeois dictatorship have any modicum of restraint or professionalism. They are the armed thugs of our class enemy; they are all bastards.

[hugsandmarxism]

From an anarchist comrade of mine:


A Statement of Solidarity from the Boston Anti-Authoritarian Movement and
a Press Release for a Demonstration at the Greek Consulate.

We will meet Tuesday, December 16th at 11:30 at the Arlington T Station,
and march to the Greek Consulate, 86 Beacon Street, Boston, MA.

On Saturday, December 6, 2008 Alexandros Grigoropoulos, a young boy of
15 was killed by a police officer in Greece, sparking a week of
political unrest across the country. Here in the United States, we
have seen the images in our media about the riots that have resulted
from the tragedy—riots that have lasted now for 6 days—but we have not
yet heard about the political implications of these developing events.

Alexandros was a supporter of anti-authoritarian and anarchist
movements, and he wanted to live free without oppression. His
crime, the only reason for his murder, was that he peacefully
demonstrated against Greek Police Special Forces who were
patrolling a revolutionary neighborhood and attempting to provoke
its residents. Many people witnessed to the tragic murder of
Alexandros and all deny the police claim that the fatal bullet was
a warning shot that ricocheted.

The anarchist movement in very influential in Greece, where people of all
ages and walks of life frequently demonstrate against the police, the
government and the rich in a struggle to abolish hierarchy and make room
for participatory decentralized democracy and social justice. Greece is a
country that suffers from a high rate of poverty, affecting 1/3 of its
population, with a conservative government and police force that openly
collaborates with fascists and neo-Nazi groups such as Golden Dawn to
violently repress students, leftists, and migrant workers.

The country erupted first in response to yet another example of
police brutality, but now the struggle is one to create social
change. Alexandros's death opened the floodgates. Thousands of
anti-authoritarians, students, and workers occupy schools,
universities and government buildings while others hold marches
and rallies in the streets. These actions are against the
oppressive governmental and corporate power within Greece. This is
not an isolated group or a radical fringe outraged by economic
collapse and governmental oppression. The riots that have scarred
at least 10 of Greece's cities and the general strikes called by
many of the country's major unions on December 10th are a clear
indication that the people of Greece are fighting for a new type
of politics.

What our media condemns as simple riots and senseless violence is
really a heroic struggle against capitalistic and authoritarian
abuse and oppression. It seems the anti-authoritarians in Greece
are making major strides toward a new world and the end result
could make history, following in the footsteps of the Commune Du
Paris and the anarchist revolution during the Spanish Civil war.

In this time of turmoil and economic uncertainty, these Greek
revolutionaries are fighting back, serving as an inspiration to
the working-class and downtrodden people of the world. As a
result, solidarity demonstrations have erupted worldwide in places
like Berlin, Madrid, London, and New York City.

It is in this spirit that the Boston Anti-Authoritarian Movement
offers this statement of our solidarity. We are calling for a
Red/Black bloc of anti-authoritarians, leftists, immigrants,
workers, students, youth and anyone else fed-up with the state of
the world and the way the rich and powerful disregard the
suffering of the poor. Just as in Greece, we will demonstrate our
opposition to the authoritarian system that leaves many without
food, jobs or homes while a wealthy few enjoy conveniences beyond
our wildest dreams.

We will march on the Greek Consulate of Boston and show the world
that Greece is not alone. Come show your solidarity with the
oppressed people in Greece standing up for what they believe in.
Remember to bundle up in black and red, bring banners, signs and
flags, as well as well-crafted messages of Solidarity with the
Greece uprising.

To the end of capitalism, to the end of authority, and to the birth of a
new world of liberty, justice, and absolute equality,
The Boston Anti-Authoritarian Movement

Also endorsed by:
The Hog River Collective of Hartford, Ct

A good/frequently updated source on the uprising in Greece:
http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/
Website of the Greek Anti-Authoritarian Movement
http://www.resistance2003.gr/
Website of the Boston Anti-Authoritarian Movement
http://www.BaamBoston.org

[Shadowed Intent]

I don't understand your question. How does everyone become part of the police? What's the difference between a police officer and a non-police officer? A bit of combat training, a discussion of how to engage threats to other people's freedoms, and the right to carry weapons. I don't see why everyone can't have this - it would be just a part of learning to live in anarchist society - like an American might learn about the three branches of government.

I think that part about "a discussion of how to engage threats to other people's freedoms" is the part that is most ripe for corruption, which is why the discussion needs to be as open and free from hierarchy as possible.

But I don't really like the idea of everyone carrying firearms, wouldn't that just be the same paranoid American style, it would likely cause as much trouble as it solves.

[Enragé]

But I don't really like the idea of everyone carrying firearms, wouldn't that just be the same paranoid American style, it would likely cause as much trouble as it solves.


the paranoia is not the result of carrying weapons, but the result of the media's fear-mongering.

[redarmyfaction38]

the paranoia is not the result of carrying weapons, but the result of the media's fear-mongering.
totally.
on the whole greek thing, the way comrades in greece relayed events, the youth who was shot, threw a bottle of water at a police car, the police calmly parked up, got out of the car approached the teenagers and fired four shots leaving a 15 year old child dead and calmly walked away.
having read the political allegiance of said policeman, the "hang on a minute" thoughts that i put down to my personal paranoia, now ring true.
said policeman, a right wing activist and child of fascist parents, sick of the greek govts. "soft approach" to dissent and radical elements, took it upon himself to provoke a situation in which the rule of the generals, through the govt. calling in the army, could be re established.

[F9]

totally.
on the whole greek thing, the way comrades in greece relayed events, the youth who was shot, threw a bottle of water at a police car, the police calmly parked up, got out of the car approached the teenagers and fired four shots leaving a 15 year old child dead and calmly walked away.
having read the political allegiance of said policeman, the "hang on a minute" thoughts that i put down to my personal paranoia, now ring true.
said policeman, a right wing activist and child of fascist parents, sick of the greek govts. "soft approach" to dissent and radical elements, took it upon himself to provoke a situation in which the rule of the generals, through the govt. calling in the army, could be re established.

one correction, the cop didnt walked away calmly, he searched the kid, find his mobile, find his mother phone and called her to come there because something happened to her son!:cursing:

[PRC-UTE]

Even if all of this is true, do you not at least think they would be better off biding their time and launching an effectively coordinated revolution?

class war, let alone popular revolutions are not fought this way. this expecting real life to unfold like textbook ideas of revolution.

[Shadowed Intent]

totally.
on the whole greek thing, the way comrades in greece relayed events, the youth who was shot, threw a bottle of water at a police car, the police calmly parked up, got out of the car approached the teenagers and fired four shots leaving a 15 year old child dead and calmly walked away.
having read the political allegiance of said policeman, the "hang on a minute" thoughts that i put down to my personal paranoia, now ring true.
said policeman, a right wing activist and child of fascist parents, sick of the greek govts. "soft approach" to dissent and radical elements, took it upon himself to provoke a situation in which the rule of the generals, through the govt. calling in the army, could be re established.

Although I am no longer inclined to defend the actions of the Officer, it seems very odd that anyone would shoot a 15 year old without a reason, unless he didn't look 15.

[cyu]

But I don't really like the idea of everyone carrying firearms, wouldn't that just be the same paranoid American style, it would likely cause as much trouble as it solves.

Well, I do happen to live in the US, so the idea of everyone being able to carry firearms doesn't bother me much. However, if your country is different, it could be a different story. In some countries, even the police don't carry firearms, they might carry batons instead - in an anarchist society in that culture, everyone would just carry batons. (Or maybe everyone would have riot gear, tear gas, rubber bullets, pepper spray, tasers, or whatever your country currently allows its police.)

The problem with allowing one class of people in a nation to carry guns (or samurai swords or whatever) and preventing everyone else from carrying guns (or samurai swords) is that you are immediately opening your society up to oppression. Those with the weapons will have disproportionately more power and thus will be more able to oppress everyone else. If you really wanted a government for, of, and by the people, then everyone should have the tools needed to implement government - including the tools to self-defence.

[Shadowed Intent]

Well, I do happen to live in the US, so the idea of everyone being able to carry firearms doesn't bother me much. However, if your country is different, it could be a different story. In some countries, even the police don't carry firearms, they might carry batons instead - in an anarchist society in that culture, everyone would just carry batons. (Or maybe everyone would have riot gear, tear gas, rubber bullets, pepper spray, tasers, or whatever your country currently allows its police.)

The problem with allowing one class of people in a nation to carry guns (or samurai swords or whatever) and preventing everyone else from carrying guns (or samurai swords) is that you are immediately opening your society up to oppression. Those with the weapons will have disproportionately more power and thus will be more able to oppress everyone else. If you really wanted a government for, of, and by the people, then everyone should have the tools needed to implement government - including the tools to self-defence.

I would say tasers would be ideal, however if someone manages to get a gun in a society which has none, the person holding the gun has the power.

[An archist]

I would say tasers would be ideal, however if someone manages to get a gun in a society which has none, the person holding the gun has the power.

And if someone manages to get a tank in society wich has none...
And if someone manages to get an A-bomb in a society wich has none...
And if someone manages to get an intergalactic laser in a society wich has none...

[Shadowed Intent]

And if someone manages to get a tank in society wich has none...
And if someone manages to get an A-bomb in a society wich has none...
And if someone manages to get an intergalactic laser in a society wich has none...

Good point, Intergalactic Lasers for everyone!!!

[cyu]

I would say tasers would be ideal, however if someone manages to get a gun in a society which has none, the person holding the gun has the power.

You also have to consider the relative levels of the possible threats. For example, tasers have a much shorter range than guns, so the gun would be at a greater advantage than a situation in which someone with a tank shows up in a society armed with sniper rifles (assuming the tank driver has to leave the tank at some point =)

It would also depend on the gun - a single shot rifle would leave the invader open to taser attack when he tries to reload after firing. A 6-shooter means the invader will be 6 times the threat, etc...

I'm not so naive to believe that capitalists would not try to find an excuse to invade any anti-capitalist nation, so I would definitely support the nation building up its ability to defend itself. An anarchist army wouldn't have rear-echelon mother fuckers giving the orders of course - they would either vote on their officers, vote on their tactics directly, or just operate in independent guerilla style squads.

[Pawn Power]

I would say tasers would be ideal, however if someone manages to get a gun in a society which has none, the person holding the gun has the power.

"Non-lethal" tasers kill 400
(http://www.alternet.org/rights/112403/tasers_are_sold_as_%27non-lethal%27_--_but_they%27ve_killed_400_so_far/)