Can US economic crisis be solved?

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The latest US jobless rate loss has risen to a 15-year high, figures reveal. Are you worried about your job?

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[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

The latest US jobless rate loss has risen to a 15-year high, figures reveal. Are you worried about your job?

(Feed provided by BBC News | Have your Say (http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/2/hi/talking_point/default.stm))
I don't live in the US, fortunately, but if I did, I would certainly worry about my job.

[BlackCapital]

I don't have a deep understanding of the current economic situation, and really I think we're kind of working with only half the picture(all the information needed to make an assessment like that isn't available). People have been saying it's going to get rough years before the first bailout, and it is clearly becoming worse.

If the U.S. furthers its conquest of the Middle East into Pakistan or Iran, get ready for a full fledged depression (not to mention a draft). Recently I've heard an alarming amount of MSM fear mongering over a nuclear or biological terror attack which is really unsettling. At least their making us feel better by now committing active military units to the Fatherland erg "Homeland".

Just my 2 cents, no, the crisis cannot be solved in any relatively near future. Collapse of the Dollar=birth of the Amero or something like it? Maybe. Although we know who would benefit from this too. Hint: Not 99% of the population.

[not_of_this_world]

The US economy is in a state of free fall. Karl Marx predicted this long ago and the fools that run America and the fools that live here all worship capitalism. They love it so much they will send their kids to war to die to defend it. I hate to say how many assholes I have had conversations with and they don't know shit from Shinola! They only know what Fox News tells them. All this bail out billions is like pouring gasoline on a raging fire. Once capitalism goes into free fall that should be the signal to rally in the streets but it won't happen here because the media and the churches have taken over the minds of everyone who are still hoping and praying for an upturn. Imagine; The big three on the verge of bankruptcy! That means many things to many people, to me it means the wedding is over and workers better get their act together or they will be living in those cars and many are already! It don't look good at all for anything to change in America except get damn worse! That would be good if it would get people off their asses and into the streets!:thumbup1:

[ckaihatsu]

I don't have a deep understanding of the current economic situation, and really I think we're kind of working with only half the picture(all the information needed to make an assessment like that isn't available).


The shit's hitting the fan again -- (btw, try visualizing that for an easy laff -- it's such a strange expression but works so well...!) -- the capitalist class has NOTHING to do and their entire legitimacy of rule is at stake now. This happened in the 2000-2001 period and it was the inside-job stunt of 9-11 that saved their asses and allowed them to kick off an imperialist adventure of distraction by invading Afghanistan.

Now Canada's in meltdown -- they're having a constitutional crisis and soft coup just like with what happened in the U.S. in 2000 -- the U.S. Supreme Court stepped in and took the unprecedented action of handing the election over to Bush.



People have been saying it's going to get rough years before the first bailout, and it is clearly becoming worse.


The "bailouts" -- including all of the big numbers being thrown around -- are both extortions and distractions. Merger activity only *consolidates* (combines) whatever is left remaining standing. It doesn't *create* new markets or new growth. Wages have tapered off, people have no money to spend, consumer confidence is down. This adds up to a drying up of markets, so then the capitalists have nothing to justify their existence (and their claims to wealth).



If the U.S. furthers its conquest of the Middle East into Pakistan or Iran, get ready for a full fledged depression (not to mention a draft). Recently I've heard an alarming amount of MSM fear mongering over a nuclear or biological terror attack which is really unsettling. At least their making us feel better by now committing active military units to the Fatherland erg "Homeland".


I don't know how enabled the military is right now but I would guess not much. The public rallied a consensus around Obama and got him in, mostly out of disgust with Bush's war-mongering. Now there's still something of an antiwar mandate lingering and it won't put up with new military adventures or jingoism, like last time around, in 2000-2001. I do shudder to think of what kind of 9-11-like stunt the capitalists might want to pull off this time around, but it just might not play as well as last time (being so recent).



Just my 2 cents, no, the crisis cannot be solved in any relatively near future. Collapse of the Dollar=birth of the Amero or something like it? Maybe. Although we know who would benefit from this too. Hint: Not 99% of the population.


Please keep the libertarian nationalist bullshit off this board -- thank you. A consolidation of the North American economies would be a formality at most because the U.S.'s is the largest economy anyway. Again, no markets = no growth.



The US economy is in a state of free fall. Karl Marx predicted this long ago and the fools that run America and the fools that live here all worship capitalism. They love it so much they will send their kids to war to die to defend it. I hate to say how many assholes I have had conversations with and they don't know shit from Shinola! They only know what Fox News tells them.


I'll ignore your cynicism about the public here and just point out that there's no climate of jingoism this time around -- *who* are we supposed to be hating? The Somali pirates? Is *that all* the global capitalist elite can agree on as the "bad guys" here in 2008?



All this bail out billions is like pouring gasoline on a raging fire. Once capitalism goes into free fall that should be the signal to rally in the streets but it won't happen here because the media and the churches have taken over the minds of everyone who are still hoping and praying for an upturn. Imagine; The big three on the verge of bankruptcy! That means many things to many people, to me it means the wedding is over and workers better get their act together or they will be living in those cars and many are already! It don't look good at all for anything to change in America except get damn worse! That would be good if it would get people off their asses and into the streets!:thumbup1:


The foot may very well be coming off of our necks fairly soon...!


Chris





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[BlackCapital]

Please keep the libertarian nationalist bullshit off this board -- thank you.

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough, I meant that with no hint of Libertarianism or Nationalism(I'm in no way either, and it's obviously offensive). I'm simply stating that if a new currency arose in place of the dollar by design it would not be somehow more beneficial to workers. Not sure how thats Libertarian Nationalist bullshit while "9/11 was an inside job" is not.

Be civil to your comrades.

[ckaihatsu]

Be civil to your comrades.


Fair enough -- no harm done, I hope.... : )



Sorry if I wasn't clear enough, I meant that with no hint of Libertarianism or Nationalism(I'm in no way either, and it's obviously offensive). I'm simply stating that if a new currency arose in place of the dollar by design it would not be somehow more beneficial to workers. Not sure how thats Libertarian Nationalist bullshit while "9/11 was an inside job" is not.


I decided to go out on a limb for a year or so and work with a predominantly libertarian 9/11 Truth group on the 9/11 issue itself. There's much about it that wasn't handled that well, especially initially, by the left in general, but these days it's not really politically significant anymore, anyway. There's a thread here at RevLeft that deals with it, f.y.i....

[spice756]

Now Canada's in meltdown -- they're having a constitutional crisis and soft coup just like with what happened in the U.S. in 2000 -- the U.S. Supreme Court stepped in and took the unprecedented action of handing the election over to Bush.


Can you elaborate here.It is funny with all that is below we are geting shitty social programs and less social programs .

And the liberals and conservative are bringing us down to the US model.The push for privatization of healthcare.Trying to get government housing very long waiting time like 10 years.The welfare money to the poor is not enough and people cannot pay rent or look after their kids and go to work.

Now Canada from a booming world economy is falling apart in past year do to problems in the US.


Canada is one of the world's wealthiest nations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)), with a high per-capita income, and is a member of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_for_Economic_Co-operation_and_Development) (OECD) and the G8 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G8). It is one of the world's top 10 trading nations.[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada#cite_note-WTO_2008_Press_Release-76) Canada is a mixed market (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_economy),[78] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada#cite_note-PBS.2C_commanding_heights.2C_map_of_the_world.27s_ economic_systems-77) ranking lower than the U.S. but higher than most western European nations on the Heritage Foundation's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritage_Foundation) index of economic freedom



Since the early 1990s, the Canadian economy has been growing rapidly with low
unemployment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment) and large government surpluses on the federal level. Today Canada closely resembles the U.S. in its market-oriented economic system, pattern of production, and high living standards.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada#cite_note-cia_factbook-5) As of October 2007, Canada's national unemployment rate of 5.9% is its lowest in 33 years. Provincial unemployment rates vary from a low of 3.6% in Alberta to a high of 14.6% in Newfoundland and Labrador.[80] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada#cite_note-statcan_labour-79) According to the Forbes Global 2000 list of the world's largest companies in 2008, Canada had 69 companies in the list, ranking 5th next to France



As of 2008, the Canada’s total
government debt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_debt) burden is the lowest in the G8. The OECD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_for_Economic_Co-operation_and_Development) projects that Canada’s net debt-to-GDP ratio will decline to 19.5% in 2009, less than half of the projected average of 51.9% for all G8 countries. According to these projections, Canada’s debt burden will have fallen over 50 percentage points from the peak in 1995, when it was the second highest in the G8



In the past century, the growth of the manufacturing, mining, and service sectors has transformed the nation from a largely rural economy into one primarily industrial and urban. As with other first world nations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_World), the Canadian economy is dominated by the service industry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tertiary_sector_of_the_economy), which employs about three quarters of Canadians.[83] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada#cite_note-82) However, Canada is unusual among developed countries in the importance of the primary sector (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_sector_of_the_economy), with the logging (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logging) and oil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum) industries being two of Canada's most important.





Canada is one of the few developed nations that are net exporters of energy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy).[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada#cite_note-cia_factbook-5)Atlantic Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Canada) has vast offshore deposits of natural gas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas) and large oil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum) and gas resources are centred in Alberta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberta). The vast Athabasca Oil Sands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athabasca_Oil_Sands) give Canada the world's second largest oil reserves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves) behind Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia).[84] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada#cite_note-athabasca-83) In Quebec, British Columbia, Newfoundland & Labrador, New Brunswick, Ontario and Manitoba, hydroelectricity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroelectricity) is a cheap and clean source of renewable energy.



How with all the above can the Canadian government in line it self with the rich and big business? And have no empathy of the poor or signal moms with kids ?

[BlackCapital]

Haha, I was coming back to edit my comment but you beat me to it, what I was going to say:

The whole 9/11 conspiracy itself is not politically significant, I agree. It just tends to come mainly from the Libertarian, Alex Jones type crowd. Peace
:)

Continue topic at hand.

[spice756]

I don't have a deep understanding of the current economic situation, and really I think we're kind of working with only half the picture(all the information needed to make an assessment like that isn't available). People have been saying it's going to get rough years before the first bailout, and it is clearly becoming worse.


If the U.S. furthers its conquest of the Middle East into Pakistan or Iran, get ready for a full fledged depression (not to mention a draft). Recently I've heard an alarming amount of MSM fear mongering over a nuclear or biological terror attack which is really unsettling. At least their making us feel better by now committing active military units to the Fatherland erg "Homeland".

Just my 2 cents, no, the crisis cannot be solved in any relatively near future. Collapse of the Dollar=birth of the Amero or something like it? Maybe. Although we know who would benefit from this too. Hint: Not 99% of the population.


It started with the housing crisis of overproduction of homes .The suppy higher than the demad.Than it was people who could not pay of their loans for the home.Many where on street because they could not pay their house loans off.So the banks too hundreds of homes people could not pay .

You got people on the street and living in their car.Many banks are not doing well do to the bad mortgage.

This economic problem was fear of a recession and people stop buying ,investing money ,business stop buying than you get a slow down in economic growth.

The US economy is base on consumption that is buying this and buying that so on.That is not happing do to fear in the economy .This is not good because you get slow down in economic growth.

[ckaihatsu]

Can you elaborate here.It is funny with all that is below we are geting shitty social programs and less social programs .


Yeah, Canada's one of the wealthiest and insulated countries in the world, no argument there. It's still capitalist, meaning that working class people don't get to share in the real *wealth* of the country, but they *do* benefit from the perks of the overall First World culture -- not being invaded, industrialization, education, universities, public sector benefits (to a degree)....



Now Canada from a booming world economy is falling apart in past year do to problems in the US.


Well, the crisis engulfing the world is an *economic* one primarily. As your information notes, Canada benefits from being a special *resource* supplier (of oil and gas) to the U.S. market, but look at the commodities markets *now* -- party's over.

Canada is quite a bit more privileged in its position than other countries with a similar economy, probably due to racism / white supremacy. Mexico had to *fight* to keep its oil nationalized and away from predatory U.S. interests, while Canada gets preferred vendor status without being hassled.


Regarding the economic situation please see:


A Business Perspective on the Declining Rate of Profit

http://tinyurl.com/2bvq3a

[spice756]

Yeah, Canada's one of the wealthiest and insulated countries in the world, no argument there. It's still capitalist, meaning that working class people don't get to share in the real *wealth* of the country, but they *do* benefit from the perks of the overall First World culture -- not being invaded, industrialization, education, universities, public sector benefits (to a degree)....


The liberals and conservative are not putting enough money into social programs and are cutting back on social programs like the push for privatization of healthcare .Not enough subsidize money for daycare and rent.Lack of state run daycare and dental care so on.

For the past 15 to 20 years Canada is moving way from more social democratic to US model.With less social programs and more reform bills for privatization or pay.

How could this happen with a booming economy ? I don't want to sound conspiracy but is it the work NAFTA? Is the US bribing Canada on (trade) to drop social programs and run it bad and push for privatization of healthcare ?

[fabiansocialist]

Is the US bribing Canada on (trade) to drop social programs and run it bad and push for privatization of healthcare ?

They probably don't have to. The idea behind "neoliberalisation" (aka "globalisation") is that the rules of the international economic game are set up in such a manner that countries have to jettison their social welfare programs to remain "competitive" (i.e., a race to the bottom in wages, benefits, and social welfare). The only winners in this game are a global financial elite. And the great unwashed are told, "There is no alternative," rather than, "Why has this stupid game been set up with rules that enrich a few but starve and impoverish everyone else?" NAFTA fits in snugly in this global agenda.

[Bilan]

It's a global crisis, not an American one.
And yes, it can. But there is no permanent solution due to its own instability. Capitalism is a crisis system.

[spice756]

They probably don't have to. The idea behind "neoliberalisation" (aka "globalisation") is that the rules of the international economic game are set up in such a manner that countries have to jettison their social welfare programs to remain "competitive" (i.e., a race to the bottom in wages, benefits, and social welfare). The only winners in this game are a global financial elite. And the great unwashed are told, "There is no alternative," rather than, "Why has this stupid game been set up with rules that enrich a few but starve and impoverish everyone else?" NAFTA fits in snugly in this global agenda.

I remember reading on a other group they made a middle class to be anti-social programs ?:confused:

The middle class hate the NDP do to high tax.

[h0lmes]

This happened in the 2000-2001 period and it was the inside-job stunt of 9-11 that saved their asses and allowed them to kick off an imperialist adventure of distraction by invading Afghanistan.

Wow, this thread is a lot less legitimate since you said that. I understand this isn't a 9/11 truth debate but the Bush Administration couldn't get ANYTHING right, do you really think they orchestrated 9/11? And don't give me any of that BS about jet fuel burning at a lower temp than steel melts, blah blah, etc. Also, would you really believe 9/11 was an inside job if someone hadn't suggested it to you or if you hadn't watched "Loose Change"? Get real man.

As for the topic at hand, I think the economy will continue to spiral. Not only in the US but around the world. China relies on us to buy their products and if we aren't buying and they aren't selling it is going to hurt them immensely. It already is and same goes for Europe.

I have never been a supporter of Obama but I am taking an optimistic approach to him. He definitely has the potential to make some serious changes and steer this country towards the left. Social programs could really help right now as well as help protect us from future messes like we are in right now. That is exactly what FDR did during the great depression and it worked. Now all we need is a war to jumpstart the economy. :rolleyes:

[Die Neue Zeit]

I found Louis Proyect's comments on limping along and the Transitional Program interesting:

http://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2008/12/04/uaw-concessions-and-the-transitional-program/


Ironically, despite the fact that the current economic crisis will probably not generate the kind of mass suffering experienced in the 1930s when unemployment reached 25 percent, it is actually more intractable than that of FDR’s epoch in some ways. To start with, there are few prospects on the horizon that will deliver the kind of dynamism that smokestack industries provided during earlier stages of capitalist development. The last such jolt of energy occurred with the computer revolution which began in the 1950s and has already reached maturity. With Dell Computers selling for around $300, you are clearly dealing with an economic wave in its final stages.

It is also important to keep in mind that it was only war production that finally broke the back of the Great Depression. With nuclear weapons virtually assuring the end of this type of conflict (thank god), the bourgeoisie can no longer rely on what Randolph Bourne once summed up as "War Is the Health of the State".

So instead the system just limps along, looking for the next speculative bubble to keep the patient alive. Meanwhile, the dubious benefits of Thomas Friedman’s flat world seem to escape most people living in Africa, Asia and Latin America who exist in what amounts to a permanent Great Depression.

I still think that the idea of a Transitional Program is a good one. Like many of Trotsky’s other theoretical breakthroughs including Permanent Revolution, it has been reduced to a dogma. Right now all I can say is that a new transitional program has to grow out of the experiences of the mass movement, just as the original one did with its emphasis on sit-down strikes, etc. As gloomy as the political prospects seem today, there is no doubt that capitalism itself will create conditions for the growth of the revolutionary movement. Ironically, it is capitalist stagnation that will finally bring an end to the stagnation that has gripped the revolutionary movement for the past 30 years or so.

[ckaihatsu]

Wow, this thread is a lot less legitimate since you said that. I understand this isn't a 9/11 truth debate but the Bush Administration couldn't get ANYTHING right, do you really think they orchestrated 9/11? And don't give me any of that BS about jet fuel burning at a lower temp than steel melts, blah blah, etc. Also, would you really believe 9/11 was an inside job if someone hadn't suggested it to you or if you hadn't watched "Loose Change"? Get real man.


Hey, it's reeeeaaaaal easy for you to just badmouth evidence. I've already covered this stuff on the 9-11 thread on this board -- go do some background reading. It's not topical or politically relevant these days so I'd be glad to let it drop.



As for the topic at hand, I think the economy will continue to spiral. Not only in the US but around the world. China relies on us to buy their products and if we aren't buying and they aren't selling it is going to hurt them immensely. It already is and same goes for Europe.


Yup.



I have never been a supporter of Obama but I am taking an optimistic approach to him. He definitely has the potential to make some serious changes and steer this country towards the left. Social programs could really help right now as well as help protect us from future messes like we are in right now. That is exactly what FDR did during the great depression and it worked. Now all we need is a war to jumpstart the economy. :rolleyes:


FDR's 'New Deal' did *not* work, and the economy only rebounded when the U.S. entered WWII and made a nice buck off of selling armaments to both sides in the war. It enforced social conformity using anti-communist witchhunts within the establishment and scared people into slaving away for the war effort.

Now that trick has already been tried in this period, namely from 2001-2005, and it's flopped. People do *not* want war -- they became aghast at the government's treatment of its own when the Katrina hurricane hit, and we're *not* going to forget all of that, only 3-4 years later...!

If "The Greatest Country in the World" lies helpless in the face of capitalism's recurring crises, both then and now, what little un-thought-of gameplan would get things back on track (from a capitalist's point of view)? Is there some rock that we've forgotten to turn over and look under?

We *cannot* "just wait it out" like a passing thunderstorm -- this is *absolutely* Bush's (or Clinton's) third term in progress, and neither of them had anything to say, either.

The workers at Republic are showing how it's done -- it's up to the rest of us to let people know and point out *why* worker militancy, combined with revolutionary politics, *is* the way forward.