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Capitalist Killer
17th July 2003, 14:44
The Social Role of the Police (http://www.sawu.org/redstar2000/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1054049721&archive=1054467213&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&)


It bothers me when people say "there are good cops." I don't understand what they mean by "good".

When we had a cop trolling our board a few months ago, I suggested a possible definition of a "good cop"...essentially one who had the eyes of an eagle when it came to tracking down murderers, rapists, etc. but who was blind as a bat when it came to persecuting hookers, junkies, drug dealers, the homeless, demonstrators, etc.

Naturally, I got the predictable response: "we don't make the law, we just enforce it."

Now consider what that really implies: if a cop is ordered to track down a murder, he does it. If he's ordered to beat the shit out of demonstrators, he does it. If he's ordered to round up the Jews for "special treatment" (execution), he DOES IT!

He's a professional who "carries out his orders" no matter what.

I suggest that such an "individual" is beyond good or evil; he has voluntarily surrendered his humanity and become a machine. Machines are not "good" or "bad"; machines either "work" or "don't work." That's all.

No one disputes the tautology that our enemy is the capitalist class. But it is the enemy's machines that directly confront us...it is this thing that looks like a human but acts like a machine that will kill us if it is ordered to do so (and may do that anyway, like any other potentially deadly malfunctioning machine.)

Please do not suggest that I am "dehumanizing" cops. No one makes you take up a career in "law enforcement" (real name: professional killer). They have dehumanized themselves.

Perhaps it will sound "harsh" to many ears...but there's no ethical difference between killing a cop and burning a cop car. They're both tools of our class enemy.

When reading this I found your logic to be failing in several key areas.

By what you wrote above you are generalising a very large group of people. To say that they automatically become machines/tools of the state is an attack on your own arguments. I refer specifically to when you said and I quote: -

3. Sadistic brutality towards women, children, and anyone physically weaker or incapable of resistance.

4. Racism.

5. Official Homophobia.

6. Total contempt for all who are not police.

7. Rampant corruption.

These were some of the descriptions you gave as attributes necessary for police work.

However surely you see the contradiction in your posts. In one you say that police become blind machines of the state who only carry out orders and in another you talk of police corruption and foul play. So they become tools only following orders and rampant monsters breaking their own rules in another post. Which are we to believe? I find this piece of inconsistency to be rather confusing. Are the police either brutal criminals of a corrupt nature, or are they tools of the state blinded by propaganda and brain washing into perfect obedience?

---------------------------------------

A second point I wish to raise with you is again on your description of the police. Your argument is that the police are all unpleasant people, however I personally know a police officer that joined because he believed that he could help people by protecting them from criminals who are out to mug them and sell drugs to their children etc. He feels that he is making a small difference to the lives of many in a positive way. Surely these are noble aims.

There are other points I wish to raise with you on this but we can come to them a little later.

I just wish you to clarify these points you have made a little more.

truthaddict11
17th July 2003, 14:49
there is already an entire thread on this


http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...m=22&topic=2534 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=2534)

CubanFox
17th July 2003, 14:52
RAM's "crituq" holds the record of fastest growing thread on Che-Lives so far, doesn't it?

Capitalist Killer
17th July 2003, 15:35
Quote: from truthaddict11 on 2:49 pm on July 17, 2003
there is already an entire thread on this


http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...m=22&topic=2534 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=2534)




I wished to start a thread, which was not based completely on flame. RAM's thread also was immediately used by those who disliked him to attack him and little discussion actually was made about the subject in hand. Which was why I created a fresh thread with out the stupidity of RAM and those who simply wished to attack him rather than argue a point.

Hopefully this thread will be successful, where as RAM's was not. I wish to discuss sensibly Redstars points, not just try and flame him like that fool RAM.

Sabocat
17th July 2003, 15:38
About this topic......

Let it go.

(Edited by Disgustapated at 10:39 am on July 17, 2003)

革命者
17th July 2003, 17:47
Is Ghost Writer banned??

:confused:

redstar2000
17th July 2003, 18:13
It's a pretty simple question, actually. But, to spell it out...

Objectively the police/professional military do indeed renounce their humanity and become killing machines for the ruling class.

Subjectively the police/professional military have developed an appropriate "sub-culture" to justify what they have made of themselves, what they have turned themselves into. It is "how they see themselves" instead of "how they really are".

One not only does not exclude the other but compliments it...to go further, the real social role generates the ideology of the sub-culture.

Yes, I'm generalizing about a very large number of people...that's what Marxists do.

A second point I wish to raise with you is again on your description of the police. Your argument is that the police are all unpleasant people, however I personally know a police officer that joined because he believed that he could help people by protecting them from criminals who are out to mug them and sell drugs to their children etc. He feels that he is making a small difference to the lives of many in a positive way. Surely these are noble aims.

Yes, that sometimes happens. My impression is that people who join the police to "help people" quit after the first few years...once they get a really clear idea of what that "help" is actually like; I understand that many make a "lateral transfer" into the fire department...which really helps people.

By all means, raise any serious questions you may have and I will try to respond to them.

:cool:

Urban Rubble
17th July 2003, 19:14
I acutally considered becoming a police officer. I think the idea is a great one, to serve and protect, too bad hardly any of them do that.

I know a few good cops from the small town I grew up in. They are great people who are actually in it to make a change, one of them is the POLICE CHIEF of that small town. They are seriously good people, if they find a 16 year old piss drunk, they won't cuff him and send him to jail like most cops would, they call his parents and have them picked up, or they take them home. They try to help people out, like a cop should.

I never became one because half the people I would be saving would be the same people that I hate. Plus, i would probably get fired for taking kids weed and smoking it.

Police Officer is a noble profession, but only about %10 of them are not complete dickheads.

Invader Zim
17th July 2003, 20:59
Quote: from redstar2000 on 6:13 pm on July 17, 2003
It's a pretty simple question, actually. But, to spell it out...

Objectively the police/professional military do indeed renounce their humanity and become killing machines for the ruling class.

Subjectively the police/professional military have developed an appropriate "sub-culture" to justify what they have made of themselves, what they have turned themselves into. It is "how they see themselves" instead of "how they really are".

One not only does not exclude the other but compliments it...to go further, the real social role generates the ideology of the sub-culture.

Yes, I'm generalizing about a very large number of people...that's what Marxists do.

A second point I wish to raise with you is again on your description of the police. Your argument is that the police are all unpleasant people, however I personally know a police officer that joined because he believed that he could help people by protecting them from criminals who are out to mug them and sell drugs to their children etc. He feels that he is making a small difference to the lives of many in a positive way. Surely these are noble aims.

Yes, that sometimes happens. My impression is that people who join the police to "help people" quit after the first few years...once they get a really clear idea of what that "help" is actually like; I understand that many make a "lateral transfer" into the fire department...which really helps people.

By all means, raise any serious questions you may have and I will try to respond to them.

:cool:


Objectively the police/professional military do indeed renounce their humanity and become killing machines for the ruling class.

So what you said earlier about police being brain washed machines of the state, who do what they are told when they are told is crap then? Instead they are corrupted killers... Excuse me but cops are not killers, how could they be... Ohh yes I forget you live in the US of KKK. My mistake, you see in the UK the cops dont even carry guns and we have no death penalty. So perhaps you are correct about some cops in the USA, however I seriously doubt that all cops are the way you say, infact I would say you watch to much Rambo. I would imagine the vast Majority conform to the ideals of protecting and serving the people, even if they are slightly corrupt or incompetent.

Out of interest how would you describe British cops considering they are obviously not violant killers? (they do not get given the tools necessary)

PS By all means, raise any serious questions you may have and I will try to respond to them.

Can I raise points, or have I forfited that right by actually disagreeing with your Majesty in the past?

:cool:

Moskitto
17th July 2003, 21:27
Quote: from Urban Rubble on 7:14 pm on July 17, 2003
I acutally considered becoming a police officer. I think the idea is a great one, to serve and protect, too bad hardly any of them do that.

I know a few good cops from the small town I grew up in. They are great people who are actually in it to make a change, one of them is the POLICE CHIEF of that small town. They are seriously good people, if they find a 16 year old piss drunk, they won't cuff him and send him to jail like most cops would, they call his parents and have them picked up, or they take them home. They try to help people out, like a cop should.

I never became one because half the people I would be saving would be the same people that I hate. Plus, i would probably get fired for taking kids weed and smoking it.

Police Officer is a noble profession, but only about %10 of them are not complete dickheads.


2 police officers where i lived recieved awards after saving a couple of unconcious joy riders from the car they stole and crashed into a tree which exploded seconds after they where carried out. From what i've heard of American police, I would be surprised if this ever happens in the US.

Urban Rubble
17th July 2003, 23:27
"From what i've heard of American police, I would be surprised if this ever happens in the US."

Well, what you've heard is probably exagerrated. That's not to say American cops aren't horrible, they are, but there ARE some good cops, I run into them every now and then.

I'm a skateboarder, I deal with cops ALOT. There are some truly dickheaded cops that abuse their power and have HUGE egos, but as I said, there are also alot of cops that are cool and are just doing their jobs.

There are countries with FAR worse cops than us, and this is coming from a guy who has been beaten with billy clubs by cops.

truthaddict11
18th July 2003, 16:11
one day the "good cop" may be your "friend" the next day he may shoot you.

I dont believe in the idea of "good cops"

and Urban Rubble you are right there are police far worse than the united states, but that doesnt make american cops any better.

Moskitto
18th July 2003, 16:31
The police where I live are pretty reasonable, but there doesn't tend to be much political activity where I live (It's limited to 10 year old girls yelling at houses "We hate Labour") so they aren't going to beat up protesters that often. They've got more time to send plain clothes officers round my estate looking for rapists. Occasionally I see them having words with teenagers in town but not arresting anyone very often, i've had to confirm some names for an assault/nuisance causing/vandalism charge against someone else and i've been stopped by transport police when i was walking across a railway bridge when i didn't have a ticket but he just told me it wasn't a public right of way and he'd let me off because i didn't know.

Sabocat
18th July 2003, 17:11
Quote: from Urban Rubble on 6:27 pm on July 17, 2003
"From what i've heard of American police, I would be surprised if this ever happens in the US."

Well, what you've heard is probably exagerrated. That's not to say American cops aren't horrible, they are, but there ARE some good cops, I run into them every now and then.

I'm a skateboarder, I deal with cops ALOT. There are some truly dickheaded cops that abuse their power and have HUGE egos, but as I said, there are also alot of cops that are cool and are just doing their jobs.

There are countries with FAR worse cops than us, and this is coming from a guy who has been beaten with billy clubs by cops.


Not to beat a dead horse here...and god knows we did that on the RAM thread, "they are just doing their job" is precisely the problem.

Just doing their job would of course include, arresting you for skateboarding, shoot or beat you for protesting, beating picketers during a strike, etc, etc... if that indeed was what was mandated to them in the performance of their duties.

There are volumes of pages in history to back this up.

By becoming police, they have sworn to uphold the law. That means whatever law they're told to uphold, they uphold.