Hugo Chávez is a traitor?

[spice756]

Does not look like Hugo Chávez is going take socialism.Please tell me there must be some thing good Hugo Chávez have done.


Every thing I read is so bad about Hugo Chávez .:scared:I thought he was building socialism?

Where is it? Where are the state run stuff other than oil?


=========



Grimacing from contractions, expectant mother Castuca Marino had more on her mind than birth pangs. She was nervous about whether she and her newborn child would make it out of the hospital alive.

Interviewed as she stood in the emergency room of Concepcion Palacios Maternity Hospital here last week, Marino had heard news reports of six infant deaths there over the course of a 24-hour period late last month. She knew that since the beginning of February, six mothers had died in the hospital during or after childbirth.

“What are poor people going to do?” said Marino, 20, as she was being admitted to this sprawling complex where, on average, 60 babies are born a day. “I’m just hoping that there are no complications and that everything goes well.”

Palacios, Venezuela’s largest public maternity hospital and once the nation’s beacon of neonatal care, has fallen on hard times. Half of the anesthesiologists and pediatricians on staff two years ago have quit. Basic equipment such as respirators, ultrasound monitors and incubators are either broken or scarce. Six of 12 birth rooms have been shut.
On one day last month, five newborns were crowded into one incubator, said Dr. Jesus Mendez Quijada, a psychiatrist and Palacios staff member who is a past president of the Venezuelan Medical Federation.

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/apr/08/world/fg-healthcare8 (http://articles.latimes.com/2008/apr/08/world/fg-healthcare8)


Infant mortality in Venezuela stood at 16 deaths per 1,000 births in 2004, much lower than the South American average (by comparison, the U.S. stands at 5 deaths per 1,000 births in 2006).[19][20][21] Child malnutrition (defined as stunting or wasting in children under age five) stands at 17%; Delta Amacuro and Amazonas have the nation's highest rates.[22] According to the United Nations, 32% of Venezuelans lack adequate sanitation, primarily those living in rural areas.[23] Diseases ranging from typhoid, yellow fever, cholera, hepatitis A, hepatitis B, and hepatitis D are present in the country.[24] Only 3% of sewage is treated; most major cities lack treatment facilities.[25] 17% of Venezuelans lack access to potable water.[26]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Venezuela (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Venezuela)


Travelers to Venezuela are advised to obtain vaccinations for a variety of diseases including typhoid, yellow fever, cholera, hepatitis A, hepatitis B and hepatitis D.[27] In a cholera epidemic of contemporary times in the Orinoco Delta, Venezuela's political leaders were accused of racial profiling of their own indigenous people to deflect blame from the country's institutions, thereby aggravating the epidemic.[28]

http://upsidedownworld.org/main/content/view/302/35/ (http://upsidedownworld.org/main/content/view/302/35/)

Over the past year, the statement that poverty in Venezuela has increased under the government of President Hugo Chávez has appeared in scores of major newspapers, on major television and radio programs, and even journals such as Foreign Affairs[1] and Foreign Policy.[2] (See Appendix for a sample of such statements.)

For example, writing in the May/June 2006 issue of Foreign Affairs, Mexico’s former Foreign Minister Jorge Castañeda stated that “Venezuela’s poverty figures and human development indices have deteriorated since 1999, when Chávez took office.”[3] A May 11, 2006 news article in the Financial Times was headlined “Chavez opts for oil-fuelled world tour while progress slows on social issues; Challengers point to failures in housing and poverty ahead of December's elections,”[4] and questions whether poverty has been reduced under the Chávez administration.

State hospitals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospitals) are inefficient (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inefficient), crowded, underfunded, and poorly maintained. Private (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privately_held_company) hospitals and clinics and the qualifications of their medical personnel are comparable to U.S. standards. Private health services are costly and full to bursting.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Venezuela#cite_note-econ-0) The Government has accused private hospitals of profiteering; however, state hospitals are much worse. 2,000 doctors have left the country in 2006-'08 period [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Venezuela#cite_note-econ-0)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuela (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuela)

[Herman]

If you're going to take in face value all bourgeois sources, then you might as well not be a socialist at all.

[Wild_Fire]

I second the above opinion by Herman. You don't seem to be much of a Socialist.
Heck I'm not even sure you are with it when you post.

[Herman]

Here's some true facts and statistics for you:

- 2 million people were lifted from poverty, thanks to the redistributive nature of the current state (since 1997).

- 6.5 million people more now have drinkable water.

- Venezuela went up in the list of the Development Human Index.

- Water service as increased by 20% since 1997.

- More than 6 million Venezuelans now have access to new technologies (such as computers, internet, digital TV, etc).

- The division between the rich and poor has decreased by 13.3%.

- Around 99.5% of children have had access to basic schooling.

- 3.4 million people have graduated thanks to the Bolivarian missions.

- Mission "Barrio Adentro" (healthcare related) saved 104 thousand lives.

- Infant Mortality went down since 1997.

- The Minimum Wage is the highest in all of South America.

- Unemployment went down by 9.5% since 1997

- There has been an increased in Agricultural production of 24% (which means more food for everyone).

- Lowest inflation since 1997.

- Public debt has gone down by more than 50%

- The government has promoted the officiliaty and increased the responsabilities (and thus power) of communal councils, as institutions of participatory democracy.

- Communal councils are also forming the basis of a new bottom-top democracy, where locally the people of a neighbourhood decide on the issues and problems they will discuss.

- There has been no other period since the pact of Puntofijo where workers have been more radical and class conscious than now, and have been demanding nationalization or worker's control.

- Before talking about socialism, communism or marx would have made you look like you're too stuck in the past or you're for dictatorships. Now talking openly about socialism is popular and is seen as a modern and completely normal thing to do.

[bolchevique]

In Venezuela there are very important advances towards socialism. but there are still very serious problems ,because it's still a capitalist economy, and a demonstration of these advances is the fact that millions of Colombian are working in Venezuela, because the situation is Venezuela is much better than in Colombia so this is the best answer of all lies of the capitalist media

[Sentinel]

Since right wing sources are used in the OP, this thread is more fit in OI than Politics. Moved.

[ev]

Someone should cleanse Wikipedia of those neo-liberal fools.. :)

[spice756]

I second the above opinion by Herman. You don't seem to be much of a Socialist.Heck I'm not even sure you are with it when you post.

You don't seem to be a Socialist supporting social democratic party .Anyways I don't know much about Venezuela .




In Venezuela there are very important advances towards socialism. but there are still very serious problems ,because it's still a capitalist economy


Again I have not read much about Venezuela .Other than he claims to be building socialism but so is Bolivia.

[Killfacer]

And yet he happily give away his national resources to richer countries in order to make a point. Not exactly socialist. I supported him and i still do but he is worrying me. He's starting to look as though he is going to be the leader for the rest of his life, not advisable.

May i also ask you Herman, where you got your statistics from?

[Herman]

http://www.venezueladeverdad.gob.ve/seccion/logros-del-gobierno-bolivariano

[danyboy27]

And yet he happily give away his national resources to richer countries in order to make a point. Not exactly socialist. I supported him and i still do but he is worrying me. He's starting to look as though he is going to be the leader for the rest of his life, not advisable.

May i also ask you Herman, where you got your statistics from?


yea me too, is till dont get it why he purchased all those high tech planes.
even imagine you can match the USAF is folly, except if you are china.

and i fucking hate his diplomatic fuckup, i seen a tv speech of him cursing at george bush, this is embarassing to watch.

[Herman]

yea me too, is till dont get it why he purchased all those high tech planes.
even imagine you can match the USAF is folly, except if you are china.

A country has to defend itself with something.


and i fucking hate his diplomatic fuckup, i seen a tv speech of him cursing at george bush, this is embarassing to watch.

It's embarrassing to watch a president criticize and insult George W. Bush?

I hate elitist, fake and lying diplomacy, like the one we have nowadays. There is absolutely nothing wrong with insulting George Bush, especially after his blunder in the Middle East.

[RGacky3]

yea me too, is till dont get it why he purchased all those high tech planes.
even imagine you can match the USAF is folly, except if you are china.


That would'nt have made the news if it was a different country, all countries buy military equipment, countries like Sweeden, who the hell is going to attack Sweeden.

Venezuela has a lot more to worry about that many other countries that spend just as much if not more on their military.


And yet he happily give away his national resources to richer countries in order to make a point. Not exactly socialist. I supported him and i still do but he is worrying me. He's starting to look as though he is going to be the leader for the rest of his life, not advisable.

I second that, what he's trying to do is be some type of global moral spokesperson, to counter a world power, which is very dangerous, and (I think) should'nt be his priority, just stick to helping your country, Evo Morales, is doing it a bit better, low profile and humble.

The western media is doing all it can to defame Chavez, listing every thing they can that is negative and ignoring everything positive, so Spice, be a little skeptical and get information from different sources.


Where is it? Where are the state run stuff other than oil?

State run DOES NOT equate to Socialist.

[Rosa Provokateur]

I'm concerned about Chavez's media censorship and how strongly alot of people have mobilized against him. He's giving too much power to the State and I dont trust him.

[RGacky3]

I'm concerned about Chavez's media censorship and how strongly alot of people have mobilized against him. He's giving too much power to the State and I dont trust him.


Although I agree with you, somewhat, you have to look beyond the western rhetoric. Look at the history of the media he's (kind of, not really) censoring, and the actual laws put in place, one station called for a coup, you know what would happen to that Station in the United States.

Also the second, he is centralizing power, thats true, and its not positive, BUT he's also decentralizing power, giving it more locally.

You have to look at the WHOLE picture.

[danyboy27]

you got me terribly wrong guys.

their large expenses in purchasing planes are just a pure waste of money, i dont mind them invest in military, but this is a match they will never win, not concerning the airforce. They should put enphasis on ground forces instead, they got the vegetation to do an all out guerilla warfare.

what chavez did was maybe right, but he put in danger his own people by doing it. It maybe boring, but it is the most efficient way to play the hypocrite in international politics, you gain friends this way. the other countries that handle politics like chavez are iran and north korea, and so far it didnt worked out verry well. Never attrack attention that the way i think the game should be played.

[RGacky3]

their large expenses in purchasing planes are just a pure waste of money, i dont mind them invest in military, but this is a match they will never win, not concerning the airforce. They should put enphasis on ground forces instead, they got the vegetation to do an all out guerilla warfare.


I think thats a question that Venezuelas generals and military tacticians, should be and probably are answering.


what chavez did was maybe right, but he put in danger his own people by doing it. It maybe boring, but it is the most efficient way to play the hypocrite in international politics, you gain friends this way. the other countries that handle politics like chavez are iran and north korea, and so far it didnt worked out verry well. Never attrack attention that the way i think the game should be played.

I agree, its a dangerous game being a public opponant of US imperialism

[KC]

I agree, its a dangerous game being a public opponant of US imperialism

Not really. Right now is probably the safest time to do so, considering the circumstances.

With that being said, regardless of Chavez's ideology or claims, the simple objective fact is that what he has done is improve the life of the Venezuelan people under capitalism, and has made no significant steps to move away from capitalism. He has done all this with the help of oil revenue; we'll see where he truly stands when the economy declines to a point where he is unable to fund these programs from oil revenue.

However, based on the fact that he's been in office for so long and done so little, it seems that his purpose is more to serve as a safety valve for capital in Venezuela instead of an actual opponent of that system.

[danyboy27]

the purchase of those migs are probably more to do with a political decision than a strategical one.

[PostAnarchy]

1. It is not up to Hugo Chavez to build socialism, that is up to the Venezuelan workers. Once again, it is high time those in the Left stop looking into personality cults and "great men" to "take us" to victory and to socialism.

The only people that can do that is ourselves, the working class as a whole, not any great man, woman or "Leader"

2. Chavez is a populist and a bit of a demagogue so therefore he has done things in half-measures. Sure there have been some nationalizations but the capitalist class is undoubtedly present in full force. There has also been a ton of propaganda regarding Chavez, by all sides I might add. His detractors make him out to be the devil incarnate and his supporters allege that he is the only political leader that has every fought for the Venezuelan people.

I think it is worth remembering that if Chavez has gone to the Left, it is not so much because he himself has changed it is because he is acknowledging in some respects the attitude of the Venezuelan workers who have become radicalized and are putting increasing pressure on Chavez. When he first ran for President, he did not run on a campaign of socialism but of nationalism. In many ways he still is one today thus the military build up and closer ties to Russia, Iran and China.

If there is a real revolution in Venezuela it will likely be against Chavez and his regime, despite any of the populist and reformist measures he has created, if the Venezuelan workers do not take matters into their own hands I fear the end result will be similar to that of Chile and Allende in 1973.

Let's hope not.

[RGacky3]

the purchase of those migs are probably more to do with a political decision than a strategical one.


Really? What are you basing that on? My guess is nothing substancial.


Not really. Right now is probably the safest time to do so, considering the circumstances.

How so?


However, based on the fact that he's been in office for so long and done so little, it seems that his purpose is more to serve as a safety valve for capital in Venezuela instead of an actual opponent of that system.

Considering he's pissing off Capital a lot, and actually is doing quite a bit for an electoral system, I don't see how thats the case?


1. It is not up to Hugo Chavez to build socialism, that is up to the Venezuelan workers. Once again, it is high time those in the Left stop looking into personality cults and "great men" to "take us" to victory and to socialism.

100% Right, we are judging Chavez as a head of state, while he is a decent head of state, we should'nt be putting our hopes in him.

[danyboy27]

Really? What are you basing that on? My guess is nothing substancial.


better relation with russia
coinciding with the implentation of a south american franchise for the construction of ak 103, natural gas and oil deal, and join military exercise.
lets not forget the multi million dollar contract for the new migs they purchased.
let not forget the deal to purchase mi-28.

but has i said, this is only assumptions, i am not a high ranker politician, so what the fuck i know anyway.

[RGacky3]

but has i said, this is only assumptions, i am not a high ranker politician, so what the fuck i know anyway.

Exactly, weapon buying by nations happens all the time, its not out of the ordinary.

[danyboy27]

Exactly, weapon buying by nations happens all the time, its not out of the ordinary.

still, relation with russian concerning oil and energy increased dramaticly after they purchased all those multi million planes, and the quantity purchased will never be enough to even repel the us air force, sure it can make the venezuelian airforce general have a hard on, but that pretty much it.

he could not even use it against a neighbor, you know like me how the us react when something moving too much in south america.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

I'd waiting to see how Hugo can will keep his social programs going now that Oil has fallen like a rock in the ocean.

Every analysis I've seen on Venezuela said much of the growth was due to record oil profits, and, like Iran, I'm curious to see how the government will handle this major drop.

Anyway, media coverage on Venezuela is disgusting. They portray him as Stalin-lite, yet most of the coverage concerns election results, which is completely contradictory. His opponet in 2006, Manuel Rosales, signed the coup decree ending democracy in Venezuela. If he were in America, that motherfucker would have been hung with his own entrails when the government was restored.

[Herman]

I'm concerned about Chavez's media censorship

You are? Why? 90% of the media in Venezuela is privately owned.

[KC]

How so?

The US economy is in decline, its political ambitions abroad have been severely hindered by the failed incursions into Iraq and Afghanistan, the development (both economical and political) of foreign rivals such as China and India is picking up pace, and with these developments comes a necessarily more cautious foreign policy on the part of the US and eventually a decreasing sphere of influence.

The US is currently in a very precarious situation. Because of this it is probably the safest time to "speak out" since the cold war, when one could just side with the USSR.


Considering he's pissing off Capital a lot, and actually is doing quite a bit for an electoral system, I don't see how thats the case?

Who is he pissing off?

[Killfacer]

Come on Herman, your source is no less biased than anybody elses.

On weapons, i tend to agree with Spetnaz, the move to buy MIGs is clearly and poltical one and i have to question whether blowing millions on huge political gestures like this is wise.

The problem with Chavez is that the longer he stays in power the more he discredits those of us who support him. He is now attempting to change the law so he is able to stay in charge for longer. He needs to leave soon or risk becoming a dictator.

[Rosa Provokateur]

Although I agree with you, somewhat, you have to look beyond the western rhetoric. Look at the history of the media he's (kind of, not really) censoring, and the actual laws put in place, one station called for a coup, you know what would happen to that Station in the United States.

Also the second, he is centralizing power, thats true, and its not positive, BUT he's also decentralizing power, giving it more locally.

You have to look at the WHOLE picture.

If the people agree with that station and a coup happens then thats democratic will-power. Localization of power is good but that doesnt justify centralization of anything. As I recall, Chavez had a hand in an attempted coup himself.

[Herman]

Come on Herman, your source is no less biased than anybody elses.

It is less biased because these are researched statistics.

[danyboy27]

It is less biased because these are researched statistics.

not if its been gathered by a pro left or by venezuelian.

then again, if you are skilled with stastics you can prove that 68% of american support stalin.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

As I recall, Chavez had a hand in an attempted coup himself.

Yeah, but that wasn't against a democratically-elected government, if I recall correctly.

[RGacky3]

still, relation with russian concerning oil and energy increased dramaticly after they purchased all those multi million planes, and the quantity purchased will never be enough to even repel the us air force, sure it can make the venezuelian airforce general have a hard on, but that pretty much it.

Yeah, so? The fact that this is being discussed and not any other military perchase, which happen all the time, shows the medias ideological and class interests.


If the people agree with that station and a coup happens then thats democratic will-power. Localization of power is good but that doesnt justify centralization of anything.

I don't know of many coups that were popularly back, especially against democratic governments.

As to the second part, thats true, I agree, but that does'nt make him "un-democratic" at least subjectively.


On weapons, i tend to agree with Spetnaz, the move to buy MIGs is clearly and poltical one and i have to question whether blowing millions on huge political gestures like this is wise.


Tell that to every other country in the world. Hell lest be more specific, tell that to Isreal.


If he were in America, that motherfucker would have been hung with his own entrails when the government was restored.

Very good point.

Again, I'm not saying he's the Messiah, I'm just saying he's not what he's made out to be, and he's doing a lot of good, compared to other governements running similar countries.

[Pero's Pen]

not if its been gathered by a pro left or by venezuelian.

Completely stupid. You are saying that statistics are more trustworthy if they come from sources that are foreign and hostile to Chavez. Do sources outside Venezuela know all the happenings within?


then again, if you are skilled with stastics you can prove that 68% of american support stalin.

Again, completely stupid.

[spice756]

not if its been gathered by a pro left or by venezuelian.

then again, if you are skilled with stastics you can prove that 68% of american support stalin.

What does stalin have to do with the healthcare and poverty?



It is less biased because these are researched statistics.


It still does not say why there is much private businesses and the healthcare in bad shape.

[Rosa Provokateur]

Yeah, but that wasn't against a democratically-elected government, if I recall correctly.
Very good but a coup is a coup. If people feel theres reason enough to do away with any sort of government then I say have at it.

[danyboy27]

[quote=spice756;1301179]What does stalin have to do with the healthcare and poverty?
quote]

it was a radical exemple to explain that you can make stastistics say anything you want to.

i could have used another exemple, for exemple Pepsi can make survey and statistics that show his brand is the most popular, and the next day, coca cola would do the same survey with the same overwhelming positive result.

hey Pero, i never said it has to be collected by ennemy of the regime, but that leftist info sources are fucking biaised, like right wing sources are biaised.

both side will make the things more positive for their side.

[Killfacer]

Completely stupid. You are saying that statistics are more trustworthy if they come from sources that are foreign and hostile to Chavez. Do sources outside Venezuela know all the happenings within?

Again, completely stupid.


Clearly he wasn't saying that. Read the discussion before hand and you would realise that he was pointing out the stupidity of some people on this site calling media statistics biased and then relying on completely biased statistics themselves.

The point is that neither sources are likely to give a fair representation because both have been gathered with a specific agenda.

[RGacky3]

Very good but a coup is a coup. If people feel theres reason enough to do away with any sort of government then I say have at it.

Coups are not done by the people, its a military take over, almost 100% of the time, not publicly mandated, and usually done for the protection of the ruling class (as was the case in venezuela), I don't know of one example when it was publicly mandated.

[Bud Struggle]

Chavez is an obvious one shot wonder. When he's gone the country will turn back into it was before--an banana republic with a lot of oil money.

You Communists have to stop betting on these "one man takes over and changes things" glorious leaders to bring about a Socialist world.

It's got be a PEOPLE'S REVOLUTION....or it's just more neo-Communist crap.

[RGacky3]

It's got be a PEOPLE'S REVOLUTION....or it's just more neo-Communist crap.

I could not agree more.

What I'm hoping is the people take control, although its hard to see that happening.

That being said Hugo Chaves isn't "one man taking over", any more than Bush, took over.

[Killfacer]

Yes but Bush has served his time and is going to leave. Chaves on the other hand seems to be intent on inventing new laws that allow him to be in power for the rest of his life.

I really do hope he hands over power because at the start i thought it was brilliant but i cannot see him doing so and he will blacken the lefts name further.

[communard resolution]

inventing new laws that allow him to be in power for the rest of his life.

Double-edged sword. One socialist in power permanently is better than a succession of interchangable capitalist stooges in power, especially for a developing country such as Venezuela. I can see what you're saying, of course.

I don't know enough about Chavez to judge his commitment to socialism, but it seems that he has managed to improve the situation of the poor quite significantly in the past 10 plus years - and that's something, no?

[Bud Struggle]

Double-edged sword. One socialist in power permanently is better than a succession of interchangable capitalist stooges in power, especially for a developing country such as Venezuela.

http://beconfused.com/images/2007/10/North-Korean-leader-Kim-Jong-Il.jpg

Indeed. :rolleyes:

[communard resolution]

So what do you say about the statistics brought up in post #4, TomK?

[Killfacer]

Double-edged sword. One socialist in power permanently is better than a succession of interchangable capitalist stooges in power, especially for a developing country such as Venezuela. I can see what you're saying, of course.

I don't know enough about Chavez to judge his commitment to socialism, but it seems that he has managed to improve the situation of the poor quite significantly in the past 10 plus years - and that's something, no?

Should the left be seen to support someone, just because they are an improvement on what could have been? I do not deny he has improved things, but he is fast becoming another blemish on the left's character and continued support can only discredit us.

[Bud Struggle]

So what do you say about the statistics brought up in post #4, TomK?

The one's quoted from exactly where???? Made up--I dunno? Quotes from "nowhere" mean nothing. Like them or not Spice has his sources together.

I have a guy that works for me from Venezuela. Hates Chavez--he's poor (as I said he works for me.;)) Chavez from his point of view is a one of a kind pop idol. It's not that he dislikes Chavez politics as much as he dislikes that fact that he will be gone tomorrow or on a couple of years and Chavez's Revolution will have meant everything about Hugo Chavez and nothing about people doing better.

My friend isn't a Communist so he's not speaking about the "Revolution" per se, but he just feels guys like him do a lot of damage of people. For my friend Chavez offers only rhetoric in the long run.

[communard resolution]

Herman, where did you get your statistics (as cited in post #4 from)?

Also, would you mind answering a few questions about the individual points you've listed in that post?

[danyboy27]

http://beconfused.com/images/2007/10/North-Korean-leader-Kim-Jong-Il.jpg

Indeed. :rolleyes:
http://www.rofl.name/asciiart/LMFAOTrain.gif

[Herman]

Yes but Bush has served his time and is going to leave. Chaves on the other hand seems to be intent on inventing new laws that allow him to be in power for the rest of his life.

Curious. Spain, France, Germany also seem to have laws which allow prime ministers/presidents to "be in power for the rest of their lives".


The one's quoted from exactly where???? Made up--I dunno? Quotes from "nowhere" mean nothing.

They're not made up. I sourced it later on another post.

[Bud Struggle]

They're not made up. I sourced it later on another post.

Sorry I missed that. It's a freakin' propaganda site and no doubt Hugo Chavez is Webmaster-in-Chief.

No seriously--do you have any RELIABLE sources. :cool:

From the site:

http://www.venezueladeverdad.gob.ve/archivos/media/articulos/2008/11/nueva-etapa-4-368x264.jpg

:rolleyes::lol::rolleyes::lol:

[communard resolution]

No seriously--do you have any RELIABLE sources.

Hm... is there such a thing as an unbiased source though?

I'll have a look at that website and the other guy's sources. Let's see which one manages to at least appear more credible.

[spice756]

[quote=TomK;1301849]Sorry I missed that. It's a freakin' propaganda site and no doubt Hugo Chavez is Webmaster-in-Chief.

No seriously--do you have any RELIABLE sources. :cool:



None of the post here debunk any of claims here of the right wing or not about healthcare or other claims here.



Also, would you mind answering a few questions about the individual points you've listed in that post?


True that look at it.

[Comrade_Red]

Here's some true facts and statistics for you:

- 2 million people were lifted from poverty, thanks to the redistributive nature of the current state (since 1997).

- 6.5 million people more now have drinkable water.

- Venezuela went up in the list of the Development Human Index.

- Water service as increased by 20% since 1997.

- More than 6 million Venezuelans now have access to new technologies (such as computers, internet, digital TV, etc).

- The division between the rich and poor has decreased by 13.3%.

- Around 99.5% of children have had access to basic schooling.

- 3.4 million people have graduated thanks to the Bolivarian missions.

- Mission "Barrio Adentro" (healthcare related) saved 104 thousand lives.

- Infant Mortality went down since 1997.

- The Minimum Wage is the highest in all of South America.

- Unemployment went down by 9.5% since 1997

- There has been an increased in Agricultural production of 24% (which means more food for everyone).

- Lowest inflation since 1997.

- Public debt has gone down by more than 50%

- The government has promoted the officiliaty and increased the responsabilities (and thus power) of communal councils, as institutions of participatory democracy.

- Communal councils are also forming the basis of a new bottom-top democracy, where locally the people of a neighbourhood decide on the issues and problems they will discuss.

- There has been no other period since the pact of Puntofijo where workers have been more radical and class conscious than now, and have been demanding nationalization or worker's control.

- Before talking about socialism, communism or marx would have made you look like you're too stuck in the past or you're for dictatorships. Now talking openly about socialism is popular and is seen as a modern and completely normal thing to do.


that was very informative, thanks for posting.
I trust Chavez. he may not be as dogmatically-socialist as some of the idealists on here might think,but he's a good, left-wing leader.
(Of course it is imperative to question all figures, but some take that too far.)

[Rosa Provokateur]

Yes but Bush has served his time and is going to leave. Chaves on the other hand seems to be intent on inventing new laws that allow him to be in power for the rest of his life.

I really do hope he hands over power because at the start i thought it was brilliant but i cannot see him doing so and he will blacken the lefts name further.

He's no different then most left-wing dictators, reminds me of Mao or Castro. Dont bet on him handing anything over to anyone. If he has his way he wont leave office unless someone kills him.

[Killfacer]

that was very informative, thanks for posting.
I trust Chavez. he may not be as dogmatically-socialist as some of the idealists on here might think,but he's a good, left-wing leader.
(Of course it is imperative to question all figures, but some take that too far.)

Is he really a "good left wing leader" when he clings on to power for the rest of his life? It's obviously going to happen although i would bne extremely happy if he didn't.

[Rosa Provokateur]

but he's a good...leader.
(Of course it is imperative to question all figures, but some take that too far.)
Good leader is an oxymoron and sometimes people do take questioning too far but I dont think you can go too far when the leader in question warps everything to retain power.

[Herman]

Sorry I missed that. It's a freakin' propaganda site and no doubt Hugo Chavez is Webmaster-in-Chief.

No seriously--do you have any RELIABLE sources.

There are no reliable sources in existence. However, many of the claims in that site have been sourced from the UN for example.

[Killfacer]

There are no reliable sources in existence. However, many of the claims in that site have been sourced from the UN for example.

So why do you criticise everyone elses sources, when you admit that yours are also not very reliable?

[Devrim]

May i also ask you Herman, where you got your statistics from?

One may well ask;


Lowest inflation since 1997.

YearInflation rate (consumer prices) (%)
2000 20
2001 13
2002 12.3
2003 31.2
2004 31.1
2005 22.4
2006 16
2007 15.8
2008 20.7

2002 looks lower to me.
Source: http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=ve&v=71

In fact according to these statistics Venezuela has the third highest inflation in the world:

Source: http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?c=ve&v=71

Inflation is just the easiest one of Herman's claims to check. I wouldn't take them all at face value though.

Devrim

[Herman]

So why do you criticise everyone elses sources, when you admit that yours are also not very reliable?I did not admit that "mine are not very reliable". I said that all sources are biased, and their interpretation is biased too. Now, would I rather believe crap from the US or Venezuela? I think that's the question here.


YearInflation rate (consumer prices) (%)
2000 20
2001 13
2002 12.3
2003 31.2
2004 31.1
2005 22.4
2006 16
2007 15.8
2008 20.7

2002 looks lower to me.
Source: http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=ve&v=71 (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=ve&v=71)

In fact according to these statistics Venezuela has the third highest inflation in the world:

Source: http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?c=ve&v=71 (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?c=ve&v=71)

Inflation is just the easiest one of Herman's claims to check. I wouldn't take them all at face value though.Just to give you an idea on the partiality of your claim, here's two sources on inflation, saying completely different things:

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/2315

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/01/02/business/LA-FIN-Venezuela-Inflation.php

Then again, we can agree that inflation in Venezuela fluctuates greatly, becoming low or high depending on how much money is spent on public services like healthcare.

There's also the fact that Devrim's source uses the CIA world factbook as a source! Well done Devrim! Taking information directly from the very institution which seeks to expand US interest across the world!

Of course, using the following source does prove my point that the level of inflation is, looking overral, the lowest since 1997: http://www.latin-focus.com/latinfocus/countries/venezuela/vencpi.htm

You can believe whichever sources prove your claims. I'll stick to mine.

[Devrim]

There's also the fact that Devrim's source uses the CIA world factbook as a source! Well done Devrim! Taking information directly from the very institution which seeks to expand US interest across the world!

Yes, I expected this, but as you know the CIA world fact book is pretty reliable for statistics like inflation, or would you deny that?


Just to give you an idea on the partiality of your claim, here's two sources on inflation, saying completely different things:

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/2315 (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/2315)

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/...-Inflation.php (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/01/02/business/LA-FIN-Venezuela-Inflation.php)

Except that they are not saying different things the one which gives high inflation is a yearly figure for 2007. The one which gives deflation is the monthly rate for March 2007. These two figures are not mutually contradictory.

However, monthly inflation figures are pretty worthless in the real world. I remember in the period that we had hyper-inflation in Turkey, we had periods of comparatively low inflation, followed by things like 120% in two hours on a Tuesday afternoon. A monthly inflation figure doesn't really tell us anything. It is like trying to appreciate who played well in a football match from a single still photograph.


Of course, using the following source does prove my point that the level of inflation is, looking overral, the lowest since 1997: http://www.latin-focus.com/latinfocus/countries/venezuela/vencpi.htm

The graph shows that 2001 was the lowest period of inflation in consumer prices. In fact the general tendency shows a remarkable similarity to the figures I quoted above.



You can believe whichever sources prove your claims. I'll stick to mine.

Well yes, you are entitled to believe what you want despite the evidence.

Devrim

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Here's some true facts and statistics for you:

- 2 million people were lifted from poverty, thanks to the redistributive nature of the current state (since 1997).

- 6.5 million people more now have drinkable water.

- Venezuela went up in the list of the Development Human Index.

- Water service as increased by 20% since 1997.

- More than 6 million Venezuelans now have access to new technologies (such as computers, internet, digital TV, etc).

- The division between the rich and poor has decreased by 13.3%.

- Around 99.5% of children have had access to basic schooling.

- 3.4 million people have graduated thanks to the Bolivarian missions.

- Mission "Barrio Adentro" (healthcare related) saved 104 thousand lives.

- Infant Mortality went down since 1997.

- The Minimum Wage is the highest in all of South America.

- Unemployment went down by 9.5% since 1997

- There has been an increased in Agricultural production of 24% (which means more food for everyone).

- Lowest inflation since 1997.

- Public debt has gone down by more than 50%

- The government has promoted the officiliaty and increased the responsabilities (and thus power) of communal councils, as institutions of participatory democracy.

- Communal councils are also forming the basis of a new bottom-top democracy, where locally the people of a neighbourhood decide on the issues and problems they will discuss.

- There has been no other period since the pact of Puntofijo where workers have been more radical and class conscious than now, and have been demanding nationalization or worker's control.

- Before talking about socialism, communism or marx would have made you look like you're too stuck in the past or you're for dictatorships. Now talking openly about socialism is popular and is seen as a modern and completely normal thing to do.
Source?

[Bud Struggle]

Source?

Hugo Chavez himself! :lol:

[AngelCity Neo-Stalinist]

Fuck you guys chavez is the man!

[Killfacer]

Fuck you guys chavez is the man!

Thanks for that intelligent input.

[AngelCity Neo-Stalinist]

Seriously though, if or when he does step down there's the possibility of some China-style "economic reforms" coming about and then we'd be back where we started from. I'd rather see him end up like Castro then have all his hard work go down the drain. Most of this thread seems to be a reiteration of a very common argument: whether or not a planned socialised economy automatically equals a workers state. This same debate rages over North Korea today.

[Killfacer]

So you admit he is probably going to end up being in power for the rest of his life, but you support him all the same? The left has got pretty desperate if it's willing to support clearly unsocialist leaders.

[Glenn Beck]

Yes but Bush has served his time and is going to leave. Chaves on the other hand seems to be intent on inventing new laws that allow him to be in power for the rest of his life.

I really do hope he hands over power because at the start i thought it was brilliant but i cannot see him doing so and he will blacken the lefts name further.

Hugo Chavez doesn't have to do anything to blacken his or the left's name. The western media and governments have invented plenty of barbarities about him, and it's obvious why, and it's obvious that they would always do so unless he had a political line that was amenable to their interests. You obviously seem to have fallen for them. You might find Chavez staying in power for decades personally distasteful but the simple verifiable facts stand that Chavez has won in legitimate elections with a clear majority of the votes, the kind of mandate that makes the GOP's post 9/11 sweep of Congress look like a meagre victory. The institutions of the Republic of Venezuela after the new constitution that accompanied Chavez into power has provisions that provide for a far greater degree of popular input than the American constitution. Venezuela is the only country in the world that I know of where the president can be recalled by referendum and a popular vote rather than solely by the legislature or judiciary. This obviously isn't enough for a leftist to support him, there's plenty of room for debate about the success of his policies or whether he is a genuine advocate of socialism in a meaningful sense. I'm not so sure about those issues myself, and I'm happy to evaluate meaningful and well supported arguments in good faith about them.

But when you talk about him like he is some sort of tyrannical demagogue who rules Venezuela with an iron fist you are just showing yourself as a "useful idiot" of imperialism. The simple fact of the matter is that right now it is not up to Chavez whether he spends the rest of his life in office, it's up to the Venezuelan electorate. If Chavez gets voted out of office but refuses to recognize the result and uses the military to stay in power things might be different. But this is unlikely given that just last year a package of reforms that was very important to Chavez which included a removal of term limits was narrowly defeated and Chavez immediately accepted the result.

For the record I don't support Chavez being re-elected in 2012 even though I support him in general and I don't believe in term limits. If the movement can't stand on its own after 14 years and produce new leadership, or if the revolution hasn't moved on beyond the current political model into a more direct socialist democracy, then I would question whether it would be worth supporting it further as anything but a lesser evil to the incredibly corrupt parties in opposition.

[spice756]

No where did I say he was a dictator or will like to be one.The start of the thread was on healthcare that some one was saying he is a dictator or will like to have a big army.

There is elections so no he is not a dictator .And many people support him but the US .

[Killfacer]

Hugo Chavez doesn't have to do anything to blacken his or the left's name. The western media and governments have invented plenty of barbarities about him, and it's obvious why, and it's obvious that they would always do so unless he had a political line that was amenable to their interests. You obviously seem to have fallen for them. You might find Chavez staying in power for decades personally distasteful but the simple verifiable facts stand that Chavez has won in legitimate elections with a clear majority of the votes, the kind of mandate that makes the GOP's post 9/11 sweep of Congress look like a meagre victory. The institutions of the Republic of Venezuela after the new constitution that accompanied Chavez into power has provisions that provide for a far greater degree of popular input than the American constitution. Venezuela is the only country in the world that I know of where the president can be recalled by referendum and a popular vote rather than solely by the legislature or judiciary. This obviously isn't enough for a leftist to support him, there's plenty of room for debate about the success of his policies or whether he is a genuine advocate of socialism in a meaningful sense. I'm not so sure about those issues myself, and I'm happy to evaluate meaningful and well supported arguments in good faith about them.

But when you talk about him like he is some sort of tyrannical demagogue who rules Venezuela with an iron fist you are just showing yourself as a "useful idiot" of imperialism. The simple fact of the matter is that right now it is not up to Chavez whether he spends the rest of his life in office, it's up to the Venezuelan electorate. If Chavez gets voted out of office but refuses to recognize the result and uses the military to stay in power things might be different. But this is unlikely given that just last year a package of reforms that was very important to Chavez which included a removal of term limits was narrowly defeated and Chavez immediately accepted the result.

For the record I don't support Chavez being re-elected in 2012 even though I support him in general and I don't believe in term limits. If the movement can't stand on its own after 14 years and produce new leadership, or if the revolution hasn't moved on beyond the current political model into a more direct socialist democracy, then I would question whether it would be worth supporting it further as anything but a lesser evil to the incredibly corrupt parties in opposition.


Your a fucking moron, didn't you read what i posted?

I never said that he is a demogogue who rules with an iron fist. I said that he was on the verge of becoming a dictator. Sure he has some positive polocies, but i refuse to support a man who is likely to stay in power for his life. Like i said, i still support him, but if he carries on in power for much longer then i will find it impossible to support him.

The left shouldn't support people just because imperialist's don't like them. The enemy of my enemy isn't my friend, hes a corrupt "socialist".

[Herman]

Hugo Chavez himself!

If you'd check US government statistics, would you claim it was from "Obama himself"? :rolleyes:

[spice756]

If you'd check US government statistics, would you claim it was from "Obama himself"? :rolleyes:

Herman you still have not answered this part.There must be some people here who live in Venezuela .


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Grimacing from contractions, expectant mother Castuca Marino had more on her mind than birth pangs. She was nervous about whether she and her newborn child would make it out of the hospital alive.

Interviewed as she stood in the emergency room of Concepcion Palacios Maternity Hospital here last week, Marino had heard news reports of six infant deaths there over the course of a 24-hour period late last month. She knew that since the beginning of February, six mothers had died in the hospital during or after childbirth.

“What are poor people going to do?” said Marino, 20, as she was being admitted to this sprawling complex where, on average, 60 babies are born a day. “I’m just hoping that there are no complications and that everything goes well.”

Palacios, Venezuela’s largest public maternity hospital and once the nation’s beacon of neonatal care, has fallen on hard times. Half of the anesthesiologists and pediatricians on staff two years ago have quit. Basic equipment such as respirators, ultrasound monitors and incubators are either broken or scarce. Six of 12 birth rooms have been shut.
On one day last month, five newborns were crowded into one incubator, said Dr. Jesus Mendez Quijada, a psychiatrist and Palacios staff member who is a past president of the Venezuelan Medical Federation.

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/apr/08/world/fg-healthcare8 (http://www.anonym.to/?http://articles.latimes.com/2008/apr/08/world/fg-healthcare8)


Infant mortality in Venezuela stood at 16 deaths per 1,000 births in 2004, much lower than the South American average (by comparison, the U.S. stands at 5 deaths per 1,000 births in 2006).[19][20][21] Child malnutrition (defined as stunting or wasting in children under age five) stands at 17%; Delta Amacuro and Amazonas have the nation's highest rates.[22] According to the United Nations, 32% of Venezuelans lack adequate sanitation, primarily those living in rural areas.[23] Diseases ranging from typhoid, yellow fever, cholera, hepatitis A, hepatitis B, and hepatitis D are present in the country.[24] Only 3% of sewage is treated; most major cities lack treatment facilities.[25] 17% of Venezuelans lack access to potable water.[26]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Venezuela (http://www.anonym.to/?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Venezuela)


Travelers to Venezuela are advised to obtain vaccinations for a variety of diseases including typhoid, yellow fever, cholera, hepatitis A, hepatitis B and hepatitis D.[27] In a cholera epidemic of contemporary times in the Orinoco Delta, Venezuela's political leaders were accused of racial profiling of their own indigenous people to deflect blame from the country's institutions, thereby aggravating the epidemic.[28]

http://upsidedownworld.org/main/content/view/302/35/ (http://www.anonym.to/?http://upsidedownworld.org/main/content/view/302/35/)

Over the past year, the statement that poverty in Venezuela has increased under the government of President Hugo Chávez has appeared in scores of major newspapers, on major television and radio programs, and even journals such as Foreign Affairs[1] and Foreign Policy.[2] (See Appendix for a sample of such statements.)

For example, writing in the May/June 2006 issue of Foreign Affairs, Mexico’s former Foreign Minister Jorge Castañeda stated that “Venezuela’s poverty figures and human development indices have deteriorated since 1999, when Chávez took office.”[3] A May 11, 2006 news article in the Financial Times was headlined “Chavez opts for oil-fuelled world tour while progress slows on social issues; Challengers point to failures in housing and poverty ahead of December's elections,”[4] and questions whether poverty has been reduced under the Chávez administration.

State hospitals (http://www.anonym.to/?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospitals) are inefficient (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inefficient), crowded, underfunded, and poorly maintained. Private (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privately_held_company) hospitals and clinics and the qualifications of their medical personnel are comparable to U.S. standards. Private health services are costly and full to bursting.[1] (http://www.anonym.to/?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Venezuela#cite_note-econ-0) The Government has accused private hospitals of profiteering; however, state hospitals are much worse. 2,000 doctors have left the country in 2006-'08 period [1] (http://www.anonym.to/?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Venezuela#cite_note-econ-0)

[synthesis]

I always love it when people presume that there are no factors whatsoever that lie outside the control of a "socialist" government. That depends on the assumption that the government has actually taken total control of everything, when the worst case scenario is that they are merely making the effort to do so.

[Bud Struggle]

I always love it when people presume that there are no factors whatsoever that lie outside the control of a "socialist" government. That depends on the assumption that the government has actually taken total control of everything, when the worst case scenario is that they are merely making the effort to do so.

That's pretty correct. People sometimes mention a place like Cuba as having a siege mentality--but the real fact of the matter is, it is under siege.

[RGacky3]

I always love it when people presume that there are no factors whatsoever that lie outside the control of a "socialist" government. That depends on the assumption that the government has actually taken total control of everything, when the worst case scenario is that they are merely making the effort to do so.

I agree with you, but also, I would say that the US government has a lot less control than people presume, and the Capitalist hot shots havea lot more.

[Rosa Provokateur]

Seriously though, if or when he does step down there's the possibility of some China-style "economic reforms" coming about and then we'd be back where we started from. I'd rather see him end up like Castro then have all his hard work go down the drain. Most of this thread seems to be a reiteration of a very common argument: whether or not a planned socialised economy automatically equals a workers state. This same debate rages over North Korea today.
You support North Korea? Wow... I dont know what you've been told but that place is a literal hell on earth in most parts of the country.

There's a reason people try to escape, same with people escaping from Cuba.

[Rosa Provokateur]

So you admit he is probably going to end up being in power for the rest of his life, but you support him all the same? The left has got pretty desperate if it's willing to support clearly unsocialist leaders.
No joke.

[spice756]

This thread is getting off topic now.Talking about North Korea and Cuba.



socialist" government. That depends on the assumption that the government has actually taken total control of everything


He does not have total control of everything,The only state run in Venezuela is oil.

[Chapter 24]

You support North Korea? Wow... I dont know what you've been told but that place is a literal hell on earth in most parts of the country.

There's a reason people try to escape, same with people escaping from Cuba.

So you would say that the political climate of Cuba and the DPRK are similar? :confused:

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

So you admit he is probably going to end up being in power for the rest of his life, but you support him all the same? The left has got pretty desperate if it's willing to support clearly unsocialist leaders.

Amen, for godsakes, amen!