KILL RIGHTEY! - I'm sick of these tossers

[Vinny Rafarino]

Every day I get up. I feel good. I go out kicking around and usually end up hitting a pub or two. I sit there smoking cigarettes and just listen to all the Jim Beam philosophy that is ever present in the good ole' US of A.
The amount of political ineptness from the citizens never ceases to amaze me. Now, I just spent two years with some comrades of mine in Mexico City (don't ask, 'cos I can't tell you) and ended up the Phoenix Arizona. I cannot believe the amount of blatent Racism and bigotry against minorites in this shite hole. These twats actually get pissed and start spouting nigger this and nigger that...Blaming blacks and hispanics for the horrible state the economy is in. I mean they actually think migrant workers are the cause of all the Woes in the US. Now, I don;t know about you kats but when IO start hearing redneck go on like this, I don't keep my mouth shut. I instantly start talking GDP, Socialist economics, capitalist economics and the fact they are racist piles of feces. Blink-Blink...likem a deer in headlights...they have no clue at all what I'm saying.

My point is, When is it going to be time to stop trying to change the minds of the public and simply begin fighting them hands on. These fucking people are pissed drunk at 1 in the afternoon and have to gall to blame everything on minorities.

It is time to take a stand against oppression once and for all. Drop your fucking bongs and grap a rifle. These people are like the cane-toads of Australia. They are completely ravenous to society and will not simply "go away". They have to be eliminated with force. If they were actually able to be reasoned with, they would have become socialists by now. Their society is crumbling around them at it's fastest rate ever. We must act now before it is too late. If we do not set up an acceptable party to take control when capitalism falls, we will spend the next 20 years sifting through the fucking ashes. The time for action is now, the revolution is not going to start on it's own. WE must be the ones to put the disease of capitalism under quarantine.

[redstar2000]

Drop your fucking bongs and grap a rifle.

Grap?

Something I've been meaning to ask you, RAF? Where did you get the idea that everybody at Che-Lives is a "pothead"?

Oh, I'm sure many toke...but many don't. It seems to me that while there are many people who drink yet are not "drunks", there may be many people who smoke marijuana yet are not "potheads".

As it happens, I've had experiences like yours in Phoenix...it's hard to find a civilized place for a man to take a drink in America. Union bars are good, but hard to find. Neighborhood bars are a crap-shoot...you don't know what you'll run into.

But you should know that it's a waste of your time and energy to argue with guys who are already drunk at one in the afternoon. You could run over them with a truck and they probably wouldn't notice.

Now, about this shooting a bunch of people...

They have to be eliminated with force. If they were actually able to be reasoned with, they would have become socialists by now.

This is before or after the revolution? Or starting now?

We must act now before it is too late. If we do not set up an acceptable party to take control when capitalism falls, we will spend the next 20 years sifting through the fucking ashes. The time for action is now, the revolution is not going to start on it's own. WE must be the ones to put the disease of capitalism under quarantine.

"...before it is too late"? Too late for what?

"...the revolution is not going to start on its own"? Actually, that's usually how it does happen...at least the really big ones. Certainly the role of small groups in "starting" revolutions is pretty minimal, Cuba being the outstanding exception to that, of course.

You sound very frustrated and impatient, RAF, and I agree that it's unfortunate that history rarely moves with the speed that we would desire.

I would recommend the study of the transition from feudalism to capitalism as a remedy for impatience. It took a long time and was full of advances and retreats, uprisings and defeats, foreign wars and civil wars, etc. We don't know that the transition from capitalism to communism will take as long or be as complicated...but it's not an unreasonable working assumption.

Yes, I daresay we will sift through a lot of "fucking" ashes over the decades to come and perhaps well into the next century or even the one after that. History is not "kind" and class struggle, because it is of primary importance, is even less so.

That's not a reason "not" to pick up a rifle...but it's a big reason to know why you're picking it up and what you expect to realistically accomplish.

Impatience is not a good reason to "pick up the gun".

:cool:

[CubanFox]

We must make the little countries of the world socialist. Why? So that they can support rebels in the bigger ones.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Why did you even bother to pick out a typo Redstar?
You my friend are being an an asshole.

Something I've been meaning to ask you, RAF? Where did you get the idea that everybody at Che-Lives is a "pothead"? Oh, I'm sure many toke...but many don't. It seems to me that while there are many people who drink yet are not "drunks", there may be many people who smoke marijuana yet are not "potheads".

I was using it as a metaphor for complacency. I have no problem with smoking weed. If you stick a joint in my face I'll hit it.

before it is too late"? Too late for what?

Well if you have any knowledge of ecomomics you would understand that capitalism is not sustainable
indefinately. If we wait too long, there will be absolute pandemonium when the global economic system collapses as no one will be there to lead the people. Give them enough rope and they will indeed hang themselves.

"...the revolution is not going to start on its own"? Actually, that's usually how it does happen...at least the really big ones. Certainly the role of small groups in "starting" revolutions is pretty minimal, Cuba being the outstanding exception to that, of course.

I disagree with you. There will always be a seed that needs to be planted. Nothing manifests itself from thin air. What revolutions are you talking about that started on their own? None that I have ever heard of.

You sound very frustrated and impatient, RAF, and I agree that it's unfortunate that history rarely moves with the speed that we would desire.

I would recommend the study of the transition from feudalism to capitalism as a remedy for impatience. It took a long time and was full of advances and retreats, uprisings and defeats, foreign wars and civil wars, etc. We don't know that the transition from capitalism to communism will take as long or be as complicated...but it's not an unreasonable working assumption.

It's those that are frustrated and impatient; that refuse to live in dacadence any longer that actually get things done. It's easy to talk about what policy is the best or what practise would work in your model of socialism but the truth is eventually someone needs to act. I'm sure Comrades Lenin and Castro had people telling them they were "impatient" and "frustrated". It's a good thing they did not listen.

My graduate studies privided me with more information on politics than I will ever need to know. I hate to break this to you Redstar but theorising on what the transition will be like will have us sitting around indefinitely and will always produce the same outcome, a nice bundle of theories.

That's not a reason "not" to pick up a rifle...but it's a big reason to know why you're picking it up and what you expect to realistically accomplish.

Impatience is not a good reason to "pick up the gun".

If you don't know why you're picking up a gun by now then you need to climb back into your cave and let us fight.

[Dhul Fiqar]

No offence comrade, but:

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/upload/reality.jpg

;)

I agree with much of what you are saying in principle, but try picking up a gun and going out into the street to rally people for a revolution right now and you will fail. A popular revolt takes popular support, and socialism simply does not have popular support in many places in the world.

Imposing socialism is no better than imposing any other system on a people, and will be no more effective.

--- G.

[Vinny Rafarino]

C'mon Comrade Fiqar. You know good and well what I mean by "pick up a rifle". Do I want people individually to grap a gun and start clippin' hillbillies? No, of course not. (it would be nice though) I what people to become aware that time is running out for action. Leave the factional violence to those that do it best.



(Edited by COMRADE RAF at 7:15 pm on July 5, 2003)

[Dhul Fiqar]

True, but I just don't see any signs of time running out what so ever. If anything things are looking bleaker than they have in decades, the class consciousness in places like the United States is almost non existant.

It's going to take one hell of a sudden revolution of the mind to actually bring about any sort of widespread support for the kind of revolution we would like to see take place (assuming we ever agree on what kind of system to set up, the left is fractured to the EXTREME right now).

Sorry, it just seems to be a long way off, and ones efforts most logically directed in bringing about the circumstances that might foster revolution rather than aiming for it in ones own lifetime.

I realize the collapse of the capitalist system is inevitable because it relies on growth, which is not possible to sustain indefinitely. However, it looks to be at it's peak right now, which leads me to think it's got a good few decades of life left in it.

But of course, I could be wrong, I just don't have the feeling it's realistic for the shattered left to be speaking about the particulars of a popular revolt that has no populart support at the moment.

--- G.

[Vinny Rafarino]

I disagree. Now is the perfect time to beginn to organise. Capitalism has 15-20 years left in it tops. We need to form the next generation of leaders now. The party is in a shambles yes but using that as an excuse to stay idle will not help mate. We can pick up plenty of "fair weather communists" as we gather in numbers. Those who are left behind are simply left behind. We cannot afford to pick up their slack anymore. This complacency I seen in this generation is maddening. Theire is too much fear in the communists of today.

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/upload/fuckmilk77.gif

[Dhul Fiqar]

I suppose there is only one way to settle this, we can exchange e-mail addresses and get in touch in 20 years time to see who was right ;)

--- G.

[Bush is a capitalist]

Hey, Comrade RAF, I agree with you 100%. Some of these bastards do deserve to get a beating. But they are simply ignorant fools. Surely when capitalism starts to collapse and the gap between rich and poor gets wider, these schmucks will come crawling to us and will forget about all that racism.

[Vinny Rafarino]

I will hold you to that Comrade Fiqar. Regardless if you eat babies or not.

[redstar2000]

If we wait too long, there will be absolute pandemonium when the global economic system collapses as no one will be there to lead the people. Give them enough rope and they will indeed hang themselves.

Pandaemonium, of course, was the capital city of Hell in John Milton's epic Paradise Lost. It means "all demons" and was purportedly an egalitarian society.

I see you're still on this "leadership" binge and I wish I could devise a "12-step" program for you.

That being beyond my capabilities, I can only reply that when the working class is ready to rise, it will...and until that time, no small group of would-be "leaders" is going to make any perceptible difference in the long run...no matter how many "calls to action" they issue or how "militant" their rhetoric.

What revolutions are you talking about that started on their own?

Well, perhaps the largest mass uprising of modern times was that of February 1917 in Russia...there were certainly small groups involved, but it would be the height of egotism to say that it was "led" by anybody in particular.

Most recently, of course, was the May 1968 general strike in France...again, small groups were present and played a role, but it was the spontaneous action of the class itself that made the difference.

It seems to me that your views have become distorted by an over-emphasis on the guerrilla campaigns of the 20th century...the small group that "picks up the gun" and eventually marches into the capital city in triumph. Mao did it. Tito did it. Castro did it. And the Vietnamese did it.

Of those four instances, two have returned to capitalism, one is in the process of doing so, and Cuba teeters on the knife's edge.

The problem with making that "kind" of revolution is that even when you win, you haven't really won. Unless the masses themselves have grasped the need for revolution, all that you've really won is a (probably temporary) military victory. For the moment, you can impose any "socialist" measures you wish...but will they "stick"? Or will the process of degeneration back into capitalism start before the ink is dry on your first decrees?

It's those that are frustrated and impatient; that refuse to live in dacadence any longer that actually get things done.

Sometimes...and sometimes they merely generate a great deal of sound and fury signifying absolutely nothing.

Perhaps you have some well-conceived and carefully thought-out plan of an insurrectionary nature--something that you would naturally not speak of in a public forum.

Fair enough...go to it and good luck to you. You won't, by the way, be the first person on this board to actually carry something like that out.

But it strikes me that you just have an "itch" for "action"...and you want to "scratch that itch" without much concern for what's causing the itch and what scratching it at this time will actually accomplish.

I'm sure Comrades Lenin and Castro had people telling them they were "impatient" and "frustrated". It's a good thing they did not listen.

My graduate studies privided me with more information on politics than I will ever need to know. I hate to break this to you Redstar but theorising on what the transition will be like will have us sitting around indefinitely and will always produce the same outcome, a nice bundle of theories.

If you don't know why you're picking up a gun by now then you need to climb back into your cave and let us fight.

Ah yes, the ancient dispute between the "talkers" and the "men of action". Marx always thought that people should be both...but clearly we have a long way to go.

To be honest about it and not intending any personal disrespect, it does not seem to me that your academic work has prepared you with much understanding of what communism means. Your mantras regarding "leadership" suggest some familiarity with Lenin, none at all with Marx. The "other" revolutionary tradition--anarcho-syndicalism--seems likewise to be unknown to you.

Given this, what can you possibly become but another Leninist "soldier" in thrall to this or that "great leader" of the moment...or, perhaps, a "great leader" yourself?

"Benevolent despotism" is an ancient human dream that always becomes, in real life, a nightmare. But as the old Greek said: "we ought not to live as though we were asleep."

:cool:

[Vinny Rafarino]

Pandaemonium, of course, was the capital city of Hell in John Milton's epic Paradise Lost. It means "all demons" and was purportedly an egalitarian society.

Regardless of how nice a literary analogy this is, it does take us off the path a bit. You and I both know that when capitalism falls it will not go silently into this goodnight. It will shake the globe with the power of a hundred of Sadaam's nuclear bombs (at least we know where they all went now) in an attempt to choke the very last breath out of civilisation. I for one find the thought of regressing back to the fuedal age of civilisation about as tempting as watching another Quentin Terrentino film. A finely metred plan will take years to develop.

I see you're still on this "leadership" binge and I wish I could devise a "12-step" program for you.

That being beyond my capabilities, I can only reply that when the working class is ready to rise, it will...and until that time, no small group of would-be "leaders" is going to make any perceptible difference in the long run...no matter how many "calls to action" they issue or how "militant" their rhetoric.

As I have stated numerous times in the past, I believe it is quite possible to give the working class no other option then revolution. All we need is appropriate economical timing. With 33 million people under the poverty level in the US alone, all that is required is to attack at the very heart of capitalism. My friend, the masses can and will be inspired to rise, regardless of how "passive" their rhetoric.

Well, perhaps the largest mass uprising of modern times was that of February 1917 in Russia...there were certainly small groups involved, but it would be the height of egotism to say that it was "led" by anybody in particular.

Most recently, of course, was the May 1968 general strike in France...again, small groups were present and played a role, but it was the spontaneous action of the class itself that made the difference.

I believe you made my point for me. Thank you.

It seems to me that your views have become distorted by an over-emphasis on the guerrilla campaigns of the 20th century...the small group that "picks up the gun" and eventually marches into the capital city in triumph. Mao did it. Tito did it. Castro did it. And the Vietnamese did it.

My views may be "distorted" to your perception however I do not subscribe to your perception.


Sometimes...and sometimes they merely generate a great deal of sound and fury signifying absolutely nothing.

That is usually the case however I feel appropriate contitions exist today that did not exist in the eightees and early ninetees when we were forced to cower and hide like dogs.

But it strikes me that you just have an "itch" for "action"...and you want to "scratch that itch" without much concern for what's causing the itch and what scratching it at this time will actually accomplish.

It's the very same itch that has plauged me since 1984. No amount of "sooooothing ointment" will cure it.

To be honest about it and not intending any personal disrespect, it does not seem to me that your academic work has prepared you with much understanding of what communism means. Your mantras regarding "leadership" suggest some familiarity with Lenin, none at all with Marx. The "other" revolutionary tradition--anarcho-syndicalism--seems likewise to be unknown to you.

Odd. I feel the same towards you. It's funny how perception manifests itself. You dig?

To be honest about it and not intending any personal disrespect, it does not seem to me that your academic work has prepared you with much understanding of what communism means. Your mantras regarding "leadership" suggest some familiarity with Lenin, none at all with Marx. The "other" revolutionary tradition--anarcho-syndicalism--seems likewise to be unknown to you.

I am perfectly aware of the anarchist, libertarian socialist and anarcho-syndicalist views and philosophies. I actually did a term paper way back when on the spanish revolution of '36. You statement was meant as an attack in an attempt to discredit me.
The reason I do not get involved with these debates is simply that I feel their views are absurd and not worth my time.

Plato said a lot of things.

[redstarshining]

In my opinion it is necessary to organize, and to do it quickly, before it's too late. Whenever a capitalist market economy fails, people will look for someone to blame. The leaders will do everything to distract people's attention from the real causes, mostly by scapegoating minorities, and by creating some kind of enemy-of-true-freedom spectre ( for example terrorism ).
Then they will tell the people of the necessity of helping the owners of the means of production to expand business and to employ people by creating a motivation. It's not hard to guess how they will try to accomplish this.

What follows then is fascism, the old recipe with some modifications. Fascism manages to extract the last drops of blood ( surplus value of labour ) from the working class, while keeping the people in line at the same time. It's the continuation of capitalism in it's final stage, as we all know.

The very first signs of a transformation process into fascism can already be observed ( at least in the place where I live ). I really don't want to wait until it's too late, now is the time to organize.

However I do NOT believe that people will just organize themselves out of the blue. The social status-quo will not permit it. Never underestimate the power of education, if you learn from your birth on that communism is the ultimate evil, it is very hard to get that picture out of people's heads.
In fact most people seem to not even know what communism is in theory. For example, In my history book ( one that you will find in every classroom in Germany ), communism is defined like the following:"Dictatorship of an elite, centralized means of production. Communism is not really scientific, but rather a dogmatic, almost religious belief"*.

People grow up with that kind of misinformation. As long as the upper classes control the educational system and the media, our movement will not get any significant support, even after a revolution this will be problematic. And That's why reeducation in a transitional phase is necessary.

I see capitalism like a life-threatening sickness. Anyone who wants to cure a sickness has to fight it's root cause as well as the symptoms. Sometimes fighting the symptoms is all you can do because the sickness is too strong, and sometimes small victories against it's root cause are possible. But the important thing is to fight on all fronts. Work in trade unions is very important but it will not help you to seize the means of production. A strong party is the immune system of society, but without popular support it will never be powerful enough to change something.

just my 2 rouble

*=translation is not 100% accurate.