Does anyone feel like I feel?

[Shadowed Intent]

I have recently decided that I would not be happy with any form of government, and I certainly would not be happy with anarchism either, does anyone feel this way also?

[ZeroNowhere]

Why not?
Also, obviously somebody does feel like it, or this thread wouldn't exist.

[Shadowed Intent]

Oh my apologies, I meant to say anyone else. I feel this way because I am not happy with capitalism, communism is too idealistic for me, and the only thing worse than anarchism for me would be totalitarianism.

[F9]

Oh my apologies, I meant to say anyone else. I feel this way because I am not happy with capitalism, communism is too idealistic for me, and the only thing worse than anarchism for me would be totalitarianism.

on one simple question...
Whats Anarchism for you?:rolleyes:

Fuserg9:star:

[Shadowed Intent]

Well, from what I understand it is the act of not having a government, though I would like it explained further, but I do not like this idea of "survival of the fittest" since I am not the fittest.

[ZeroNowhere]

Well, from what I understand it is the act of not having a government, though I would like it explained further, but I do not like this idea of "survival of the fittest" since I am not the fittest.
It's not an idea of 'survival of the fittest'. No rulers does not mean no rules, anarchy is order, etc. Social Darwinists are mostly not anarchists, they're silly.


communism is too idealistic for me
I would point out that the end goal of all communists (though many are anarchists anyways) is anarchy, but that's bullshit. So stop doing it, people.
Anyways, why?

[Shadowed Intent]

because I am a pessimist for the most part, and I just don't think that people can deal with being equals, I don't even think I can deal with being equal.

[Shadowed Intent]

and without rulers rules are hard to enforce (excepting gravity and such)

[F9]

Well, from what I understand it is the act of not having a government, though I would like it explained further, but I do not like this idea of "survival of the fittest" since I am not the fittest.

This has nothing to do with Anarchism!


because I am a pessimist for the most part, and I just don't think that people can deal with being equals, I don't even think I can deal with being equal.

You are right we are not equal, i am better from you so i demand for you to go suicide!I am better from you so you just have to do it!
Come on, what are you waiting for?
...........:rolleyes:

[Shadowed Intent]

Heheh, well, as I said, I would like Anarchism explained further.

[F9]

Heheh, well, as I said, I would like Anarchism explained further.

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/ANARCHIST_ARCHIVES/bright/berkman/comanarchism/whatis_toc.html

[Shadowed Intent]

Ok, I havent read any of it yet, but seriously 'communist anarchism'? :rolleyes:

[F9]

Ok, I havent read any of it yet, but seriously 'communist anarchism'? :rolleyes:

Yeah, seriously, whats the weird?:rolleyes:

[Shadowed Intent]

Hm, it just seems contradictory to me, but I shall read some before going any further.

[Shadowed Intent]

Ok, I have read some, but, here is my greatest problem with it, I am not of the working class, so how may I read this and not feel like I am being targeted?

[ZeroNowhere]

Ok, I have read some, but, here is my greatest problem with it, I am not of the working class, so how may I read this and not feel like I am being targeted?
What class are you in?
Also, the Anarchist FAQ (http://www.infoshop.org/faq/index.html) is good for information except on anything related to Marx.

[Shadowed Intent]

I am in the Middle class.

[ZeroNowhere]

I am in the Middle class.
That's a fairly meaningless term. It either means more well-paid workers, or petit-bourgeoisie (small business owner). Which one are you?

[Bilan]

Please see the threads in the anarchist group for explanations on anarchism.

[Shadowed Intent]

Well, I don't have a job yet, but my mother is a lecturer at a university and my father is senior electrical inspector for Western Power.

[Vendetta]

Hm, it just seems contradictory to me, but I shall read some before going any further.

Why does it seem contradictory?

[ev]

Ok, I have read some, but, here is my greatest problem with it, I am not of the working class, so how may I read this and not feel like I am being targeted?

I read somewhere that Perth has more millionairesper capita than any other city in Australia, I wouldn't be surprised if your parents were loaded. *TARGETS*

It seems to me that you don't have a FULL understanding of the socioeconomic concepts mentioned. I suggest further reading into the general economic aspects of anarchism & communism, think... dynamics :thumbup1:

[Annie K.]

If you hang your mother with the guts of your father, then we won't target you.


because I am a pessimist for the most part, and I just don't think that people can deal with being equals, I don't even think I can deal with being equal.You probably concluded that from your observations of the behaviour of the members of a society where social interactions are based on inequality...

Human nature is just a lie.

[Dr Mindbender]

so let me ask, if not capitalism, if not communism, if not anarchism what is the alternative?

Seems to me you should base your politics around one of the above 3 that you find most agreeable (unless you are a fash of course in which case you have no business being here).

[cyu]

my mother is a lecturer at a university and my father is senior electrical inspector for Western Power.


Both would benefit from a non-capitalist world, as far as I'm concerned. As far as I'm concerned, there are only 2 classes: the working class and the owning class. If you make your living primarily by working for someone else, then you are working class. If you make your living primarily by owning stuff (and forcing your employees to give you part of what they earn, by using the police), then you are the owning class.

Clearly, neither of your parents are the owning class. The owning class is actually a tiny minority, but they have great political influence because they have great economic power.

As far as explaining anarchism goes, I'd just start with a brief synopsis of anarcho-syndicalism: it's basically workplace democracy. If you don't like your CEO, boss, or manager, in an anarcho-syndicalist society, you are not forced to listen to him - you can vote him out, replace him, or simply run the organization as a direct democracy.

[ZeroNowhere]

(unless you are a fash of course in which case you have no business being here).
Wait, wouldn't fascists prefer capitalism?

[Dr Mindbender]

Wait, wouldn't fascists prefer capitalism?

i think they'd prefer fascism, which isnt necessarilly dependent on capitalism.

[Annie K.]

Many fascists with intellectual pretensions are opposed to the ruling of a capitalist class.

[Shadowed Intent]

I am certainly not a fascist, but as I said, as far as I can tell there is no form of government that suits me.

[Shadowed Intent]

Also, why do you think human nature is a lie?

[#FF0000]

I am certainly not a fascist, but as I said, as far as I can tell there is no form of government that suits me.

I think that's might be because you haven't read up on any of them in near enough detail.

[#FF0000]

Also, why do you think human nature is a lie?

Because humans have no innate nature. The only drive humans have is to continue survive, and to produce in some way, whether through work or reproducing. How they go about surviving and interacting with others and all that is entirely cultural. I've written a few huge posts on this very topic that I can refer you to. :mellow:

[Shadowed Intent]

But there are so many, and any of them that suit will not ever be used, so what the hell is the point?

[#FF0000]

But there are so many, and any of them that suit will not ever be used, so what the hell is the point?

Reminds me of a cartoon with some socialist leader giving a speech and a bunch of separate people saying "that's such a nice idea. if only other people went along with it."

In any case, it's kind of a lame excuse. Things change. It's incredibly naive to think the current order is the apex of history and that anarchism/communism/socialism will never come about, because we really just don't know.

[Shadowed Intent]

Ok, in the next 40 years, do you think communism will be accepted and work in the ideal way?

[Mindtoaster]

I am certainly not a fascist, but as I said, as far as I can tell there is no form of government that suits me.

Why the interest in Revleft?

[#FF0000]

Ok, in the next 40 years, do you think communism will be accepted and work in the ideal way?

In the U.S.? I don't think so. I don't know about anywhere else.

[Mindtoaster]

Ok, in the next 40 years, do you think communism will be accepted and work in the ideal way?

The dark side clouds everything

Hard to see, the future is.

We'll have to see how the economic crisis affects the working class over the course of the next several years, then it will be easier to answer that question.

[Shadowed Intent]

I was interested in Revleft because I think Che Guevara was interesting, and I am more likely to be No Wing, so alas, I cannot fly.

[Androvich]

Well, you seem like a good person who is eager to learn. As you start learning more about politics and economics, you'll realize certain words have double meanings and mean totally different things to different people. First off, what most people think about Anarchism, Socialism, and Communism is way off. There are so many double meanings, different opinions, myths and misconceptions I wouldn't even know where to begin. I suggest you keep reading here on Revleft and hopefully these things will start making more sense to you.

Wikipedia is also a great place to learn because to me, it is pretty unbiased and has loads of great information. Simply looking up Anarchism, Socialism, Communism, Capitalism and other related terms will help you a lot, and I'm sure with a better understanding of these things you will make the right decision. :reda:

Another thing, Anarchism has nothing to do with social darwinism, selfish individualism, chaos, no rules, no "government", "doing whatever you want" or any of those myths.

Look up "An Anarchist FAQ" and start reading that.

[ZeroNowhere]

Wikipedia is also a great place to learn because to me, it is pretty unbiased and has loads of great information.
...It claims that in Marxist theory 'socialism' is some kind of stage that comes before communism. I wouldn't give it that much credit.

[turquino]

I don't think it matters the least bit what class you or your family are at the moment. I don't even care if you're a capitalist multi-millionaire, you can still be a communist. So long as your political line is advancing the interests of the oppressed, you're good. A correct scientific approach to revolution is more important than any subjective experience.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

"Despair is typical of those who do not understand the causes of evil, see no way out, and are incapable of struggle." -V.I. Lenin

[Robespierre2.0]

I think OP has made his mind up about leftist ideologies (communism, anarchism) without even familiarizing himself with the basic tenets of them.

First of all, communism is *not* idealistic. In fact, it is the ONLY ideology that explicitly rejects idealism, because idealism conflicts with materialism; we are dialectical materialists.

Also, read some non-western literature on the USSR and China. It seems like you, like many other people new to leftism, dismissed the socialist experiments of the 20th century as 'totalitarian dictatorships', swallowing whatever information you get from your History textbooks. Well, they were dictatorships-- dictatorships of the proletariat, but the proletariat, as a class, has to rule dictatorially over its enemies. Besides, even the bourgeois, no matter how much they slander Stalin and Mao, give them credit for turning their nations into superpowers.

[Annie K.]

Ok, in the next 40 years, do you think communism will be accepted and work in the ideal way?
It's a good question... Some leftists here don't dare to ask it.

I have no answer. But I don't plan to live more than six years, so I can give you a hint about how to live without the promise of a brave new world. The refusal of one's alienated life is not only the only way to fight alienation, it is also an access granted to great pleasures.

The US won't be destroyed soon. But you can quit your place in it. No form of governement suits you ? fine, try and escape them all. Some call it lifestylism, in an attempt to hide the sacrifice they do of their own lives (and the corpse in their mouths, hahaha). But that is certainly not less effective than getting a card of a leftist party.


In fact, it is the ONLY ideologyThat has not much to do with the feelings of shadowed intent, but that is something that always disturbed me since when i first got here. It seems that most members of this forum accept to call communism an ideology. Did I miss something, or do this term have not the signification of an unmaterialist way of thinking here ?

[Robespierre2.0]

That has not much to do with the feelings of shadowy intent, but that is something that always disturbed me since when i first got here. It seems that most members of this forum accept to call communism an ideology. Did I miss something, or do this term have not the signification of an unmaterialist way of thinking here ?

I know, I know, ideology itself is an idealist concept. However, this guy is new, and I felt like keeping things simply instead of writing a whole paragraph explaining the difference between scientific Marxism and ideologies.

[Annie K.]

Oh. Ok.

[Kukulofori]

Ok, in the next 40 years, do you think communism will be accepted and work in the ideal way?

In the next 40 years? Communism is already widely accepted in most parts of the world!

Greece, Japan, Iceland, and a few other countries are already in pre-revolutionary stages, and thanks to the economic crisis communist parties all over the world, INCLUDING in the US, have reported massive surges in interest.

It's easy to sit here on the internet and act like it's hopeless, but we have a golden opportunity right here. I'd be surprised if there wasn't at least one first-world country that had a communist revolution sometime before the economic crisis ends, if it ends.

As for work the ideal way, that depends on your idea of "ideal". Communism has been quite good to Cuba, for example.

True communism can only happen once the entire world accepts it, but there will be renewed hope for a worldwide revolution quite soon as a result of this economic crisis, mark my words.

[cyu]

But there are so many, and any of them that suit will not ever be used, so what the hell is the point?
Ok, in the next 40 years, do you think communism will be accepted and work in the ideal way?


That is what is known as a self-fulfilling prophesy. If everyone believes X can't be achieved, then nobody will try to achieve X, and indeed X will never be achieved.

If you do actually want X to be achieved, then you should get off your butt and do something about it. If you don't care enough about X to do anything about it, feel free to go back to playing World of Warcraft - just don't stand in the way of the people trying to achieve what you actually wanted, but didn't have enough passion to stand up for.

[ashaman1324]

i think i know what your asking shadowed.
when i first got on revleft i had about the same attitudes.
i'm only addressing some of your questions because my comrades beat me to it and explained better than i could have.


I have recently decided that I would not be happy with any form of government, and I certainly would not be happy with anarchism either
almost all your questions could be solved by learning more about anarchism, communism, socialism, libertarianism, etc.


because I am a pessimist for the most part, and I just don't think that people can deal with being equals, I don't even think I can deal with being equal.
this probably sounds weird.
if you didn't live in a capitalist society, would you have to worry about having a better worse life than others? would anybody?



Ok, I have read some, but, here is my greatest problem with it, I am not of the working class, so how may I read this and not feel like I am being targeted?
ruling class is our target.


i think they'd prefer fascism, which isnt necessarilly dependent on capitalism.
fascists agree with us on alot of policies... except they differentiate based on race, religion, etc...



But there are so many, and any of them that suit will not ever be used, so what the hell is the point?
but there are so many possible cures for cancer, and most of them wont work, so what the hell is the point?


Ok, in the next 40 years, do you think communism will be accepted and work in the ideal way?
communism has never been achieved.
will it be accepted in 40 years? i think so.
will it work in 40 years? i highly doubt it.
will socialism work in 40 years? absolutely.



...It claims that in Marxist theory 'socialism' is some kind of stage that comes before communism. I wouldn't give it that much credit.
socialism is needed as a transitory period.
capitalism and communism are complete opposites. you cant just switch between the two with the flip of a dime.

[ZeroNowhere]

...It claims that in Marxist theory 'socialism' is some kind of stage that comes before communism. I wouldn't give it that much credit.
socialism is needed as a transitory period.
capitalism and communism are complete opposites. you cant just switch between the two with the flip of a dime.
You seem to be forgetting that Marx used the term 'socialism' as a synonym for 'communism'.
Also, of course you can't switch between the two with the flip of a dime, that would imply international revolution succeeding everywhere at the same time (though we could have the dictatorship of the proletariat, which would be classless within its borders, though the bourgeoisie would still exist outside it). Otherwise, yes, after the revolution is international, you don't need a 'transitional' stage before moving into a democratic and classless society.

[Charles Xavier]

I don't feel that way sorry.

[Shadowed Intent]

Hm, well, this is going to sound very selfish, maybe even evil, but, I don't really care about the oppressed, I have at most another 70 years to live, I care only about my loved ones and I, I would prefer if university was less expensive, but apart from that I am fine with our society (in exception to the rampant stupidity). I have a friend who says he is an anarchist and says he hates the greedy western societies, and yet he owns mac-books, a playstation 3 and drinks red bull.

[ZeroNowhere]

yet he owns mac-books, a playstation 3 and drinks red bull.
So he has a laptop, a PS3 and drinks Red Bull. So?
We're not puritans.

[Pogue]

Hm, well, this is going to sound very selfish, maybe even evil, but, I don't really care about the oppressed, I have at most another 70 years to live, I care only about my loved ones and I, I would prefer if university was less expensive, but apart from that I am fine with our society (in exception to the rampant stupidity). I have a friend who says he is an anarchist and says he hates the greedy western societies, and yet he owns mac-books, a playstation 3 and drinks red bull.

Shouldn't he be restricted?

[Annie K.]

And you don't regret that you can't have more loved ones ? What about an entire society of loved ones ? You can care about some people, but you can't do much more for them.

The revolution is not an act of charity. The existence of the oppressed is a restriction for you to access to them and to their potential realisations. The existence of the oppressed is a oppression for all.

[Post-Something]

Hm, well, this is going to sound very selfish, maybe even evil, but, I don't really care about the oppressed, I have at most another 70 years to live, I care only about my loved ones and I, I would prefer if university was less expensive, but apart from that I am fine with our society (in exception to the rampant stupidity). I have a friend who says he is an anarchist and says he hates the greedy western societies, and yet he owns mac-books, a playstation 3 and drinks red bull.

You're assuming capitalism is a stable system.

Also, it's not just about your country, capitalism will inevitably become global, because it needs new markets. This is what we call imperialism. Ever wonder why there is so much poverty in the world?

[Post-Something]

Shouldn't he be restricted?

No, he's learning.

[Shadowed Intent]

Ok, I am not a people person, people piss me of, seriously, an entire society of loved ones, that will never happen, it sounds like a religious cult.

[#FF0000]

Ok, I am not a people person, people piss me of, seriously, an entire society of loved ones, that will never happen, it sounds like a religious cult.

I don't think anyone's arguing that. :confused:

As Cmde. Mantis said, it seems like you've made up your mind on Communism and Anarchism without knowing at all what it really is. So, forget what you already think you know, and read up on it.

I would also suggest you forget everything you know about people. I know cynicism and misanthropy is incredibly fashionable nowadays, but they're still entirely useless. :) People aren't stupid. People are made to be stupid.

[ZeroNowhere]

Ok, I am not a people person, people piss me of, seriously, an entire society of loved ones, that will never happen, it sounds like a religious cult.
You are a person. Also, for some reason I never realized that the masses were ignorant because they were born that way.
Though yes, 'an entire society of loved ones' does sound silly.

[Hessian Peel]

Heheh, well, as I said, I would like Anarchism explained further.

Anarchism is out dying your hair in multiple colours and hanging around social clubs eating vegan food while nostalgically reminiscing about how great the Spanish Revolution was with hippie bull-dykes.

[Shadowed Intent]

Heh, fashionable is hardly my reasoning, and personally I like stupid people, it means I have someone to berate.

[Annie K.]

I'm not either. But that is a political matter that need a political solution.
Religious love of your neighbor ? I despise this as much as familial love, or brotherly love.
Love in a post revolutionnary situation is not a moral duty.


But ok, I wrote about a society of loved ones to use your words.

[#FF0000]

Anarchism is out dying your hair in multiple colours and hanging around social clubs eating vegan food while nostalgically reminiscing about how great the Spanish Revolution was with hippie bull-dykes.

Clever, you fucking troll.

[#FF0000]

Heh, fashionable is hardly my reasoning,

I don't buy that for a second. :)


and personally I like stupid people, it means I have someone to berate.Ah and you are so different and superior by virtue of subscribing to a slightly different pre-processed style and participating in the same spectacle in a slightly different yet entirely safe and acceptable way.

Please. :) I used to be like you. The fact of the matter is your supposed superiority is false and completely baseless.

So. Yeah. Get over yourself is what I'm saying. You're subject to the same side-effects of society as everyone else. You don't transcend it.:mellow:

[Shadowed Intent]

I don't care what you buy and I don't care whether my superiority is 'false', it is comforting.

[samsara15]

I tend to be a pessimist, too. Ideology is just theory and never seems to work, in practice. Capitalism obviously screws most people, but every time socialism takes over, the elites take charge and ruin it. It often seems as if humanity is damned if we do and damned if we don't.

It seems to me that Communism should strive to make everyone well paid, to make working conditions better for all.

[Shadowed Intent]

Also, what did you mean by "subscribing to a slightly different pre-processed style and participating in the same spectacle in a slightly different yet entirely safe and acceptable way."?

[Shadowed Intent]

I tend to be a pessimist, too. Ideology is just theory and never seems to work, in practice. Capitalism obviously screws most people, but every time socialism takes over, the elites take charge and ruin it. It often seems as if humanity is damned if we do and damned if we don't.

It seems to me that Communism should strive to make everyone well paid, to make working conditions better for all.

THANKYOU!!!, see, this is what I wanted, this is the truth.

[ZeroNowhere]

Capitalism obviously screws most people, but every time socialism takes over, the elites take charge and ruin it.
Not at all, see the Spanish communes. Also, state capitalism isn't socialism, and it has nothing to do with 'the elites' taking charge, merely people acting in their class interests, such as those of the rising Russian bourgeoisie.


It often seems as if humanity is damned if we do and damned if we don't.
Except that we're not. :)


It seems to me that Communism should strive to make everyone well paid, to make working conditions better for all.
To make everybody well-paid? What?
No, we're trying to abolish slavery. Improvements in working conditions, standards of living and the like come as a consequence.

[#FF0000]

THANKYOU!!!, see, this is what I wanted, this is the truth.

No it's not. You really haven't even looked into Anarchism and Marxism at all, and it's kind of frustrating.


Also, what did you mean by "subscribing to a slightly different pre-processed style and participating in the same spectacle in a slightly different yet entirely safe and acceptable way."?

Basically I'm saying you're not especially unique, and that you're just another "cog in the machine" as they would say, using Situationist jargon.

[ZeroNowhere]

Basically I'm saying you're not especially unique, and that you're just another "cog in the machine" as they would say, using Situationist jargon.
"Another Brick in the Wall" works equally well. :)

Also, has anybody seen an Objectivist without a superiority complex? Ever?

[Shadowed Intent]

well yes, but honestly, I cant be bothered to read up on it at the moment, I will eventually, and I don't care about being unique, Id rather be myself.

[#FF0000]

well yes, but honestly, I cant be bothered to read up on it at the moment,

Oh you.

But, yeah, if you want to read up on Marxism, Wikipedia is a good place for a basic, basic intro. The Marxist Internet Archive (http://www.revleft.com/vb/www.marxists.org) is another good place if you want full texts. As for Anarchism, the Anarchist FAQ (http://www.revleft.com/vb/www.anarchistfaq.org) is a great place for that.

And for specific things, just ask questions in Learning.

[Annie K.]

Id rather be myself.Why ?

[Shadowed Intent]

Ok, I shall eventually, I hope you all have had fun telling me I'm not unique or better than other people :tt2: heh, I am going to bed, have a nice day. :)

[Shadowed Intent]

Why ?

Ok, just before I go to bed.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA!
goodnight.

[#FF0000]

Ok, I shall eventually, I hope you all have had fun telling me I'm not unique or better than other people :tt2: heh, I am going to bed, have a nice day. :)

Oh I always have fun with that. You're just another person.

But I think people are pretty decent, despite being a recluse. :mellow: So it's not like I'm tearing you down when I say that.

[ZeroNowhere]

But, yeah, if you want to read up on Marxism, Wikipedia is a good place for a basic, basic intro.
Eh, not really, from what I've seen. "Karl Marx posited that socialism would be achieved via class struggle and a proletarian revolution which represents the transitional stage between capitalism and communism."
No, not really.
Anyways, the Anarchist FAQ is a good source on anything other than Marx (who was an anarchist, unlike, say, the Hoxhaist troll).

[Hessian Peel]

Clever, you fucking troll.

I love you too. :)

[Post-Something]

For fucks sake, somebody should have done a Socrates style question and answer with this guy; he was the prime target for conversion!

Shadowed Intent, if you are still there, let me ask you some questions:

1. You have come onto this forum and asked questions, so you either have a). a dislike of your current government and seek a leftist alternative, or b). You simply want to learn about the left out of interest. what is your view of the left?

2. You have brought up that you only care about yourself and immediate family. But the thing is, socialism isn't just for that statistical number in society you never see, it's for you. Inevitably, you are going to have to work in your life; most likely for an organisation based on profit. How exactly do you think the bosses get their money?

3. Why do you think communism won't work?

Also, since your still new around here, I would urge you to go on and read more about communism, anarchism and all their various forms. I think you will be quite surprised with what you will find. Basically, everyone on the left of the spectrum wants to eliminate inequalities in society. We want an Egalitarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egalitarianism) society. And as communists, we understand the biggest inequality there is, is that of class. Now, a classless society has never actually been recorded, although some believe there is evidence for a state of "primitive communism", but nonetheless, we see a classless system as the only way to eliminate economic inequalities.

Communists/Anarchists also believe that many other inequalities will be elleviated if the antagonisms in the economy are resolved, because historically, these have all been tied up in the economy as well. So we understand that things like gender inequalities and racism can only be abolished in a communist society.

Hopefully, if you stick around here a little longer, you will pick up WHY we actually believe these things, WHY we see the changes we propose as necessary, and WHY it hasn't worked in the past.

[cyu]

I don't really care about the oppressed
I don't care whether my superiority is 'false', it is comforting.


How do you know you aren't oppressed? Is your hard work being used to finance golden parachutes and bailouts of banks run by idiots? Sure, you may not feel as oppressed as the slave who is whipped every day. Then again, the slave who is only whipped every week probably feels less oppressed than the slave who is whipped every day.

What if there were a system in which you could both feel "superior" or "comforted" while at the same time you wouldn't have to fear that those more oppressed than you would loot your home or steal your car? Would you fight against such a system?

[Shadowed Intent]

1. You have come onto this forum and asked questions, so you either have a). a dislike of your current government and seek a leftist alternative, or b). You simply want to learn about the left out of interest. what is your view of the left?

2. You have brought up that you only care about yourself and immediate family. But the thing is, socialism isn't just for that statistical number in society you never see, it's for you. Inevitably, you are going to have to work in your life; most likely for an organisation based on profit. How exactly do you think the bosses get their money?

3. Why do you think communism won't work?

Ok, actually I stumbled upon this website (using the stumble upon thingy) and decided to sign up, I am relatively left wing (since I am anti-right wing) and I view the left wing as generally intellectual, but a bit whiny when they aren't in such a bad situation, I believe that you shouldn't complain too often, since there are many people without your advantages.

Well obviously bosses get money by selling you as short as possible, that is the way this society works, not perfect by any means, but people tend to do well enough.

I don't think Communism will work primarily because of human greed, and even if that was no longer an issue, it has had its chance at making a good impression 3 times in-front of the public and failed miserably.

[Shadowed Intent]

Oh, and also because people often have different interpretations of Communism, like Stalin and Trotsky.

[Post-Something]

Ok, actually I stumbled upon this website (using the stumble upon thingy) and decided to sign up, I am relatively left wing (since I am anti-right wing) and I view the left wing as generally intellectual, but a bit whiny when they aren't in such a bad situation, I believe that you shouldn't complain too often, since there are many people without your advantages.

Ok, some very interesting points. We'll see if we're really complaining too much if we look at the facts...

The problem with capitalism is that it sounds bearable and tolerable when it's in one country, but inevitably it will grow onto an international level; as I've said before in this thread.

Watch this video: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=0a9VnxZEHGg


Well obviously bosses get money by selling you as short as possible, that is the way this society works, not perfect by any means, but people tend to do well enough.

And this is called exploitation. However, the second half of your answer says that people do well enough within the system. Do they really?

In the UK alone we have 13 million people in poverty, people who can't pay heating bills, can't buy decent food, can't look after their kids, and most importantly can't improve their situation. That number has been increasing by 1 million every year since 2004, and it's going to get worse due to the crisis.

Couple this with the fact that every year Britain disposes of mountains of grain and rivers of milk due to overproduction, simply to keep prices artificially high, it's quite obvious that a capitalist economy is innefficient, unstable and based entirely on profit. Their are loads of free flats they could house the homeless in, there is loads of food that could be given to the poor, and there are loads of people who need that change. An economy based on needs as opposed to profits would more than certainly offer that change.

There are many more factors we could go into such as unemployment rates, educational achievements etc, but the blatent truth is that people don't tend to do well enough, If you're born into a working class family, you will most likely stay working class your whole life. If you're born into a rich family, you'll "succeed" in this society.


I don't think Communism will work primarily because of human greed, and even if that was no longer an issue, it has had its chance at making a good impression 3 times in-front of the public and failed miserably.

You've already acknowledged yourself that greed would no longer be an issue. This is because there is essentially no such thing as human nature. People are shaped by their surroundings more than the reverse, and when your surroundings require for you to be greedy to survive, that tends to be the result. Because there would still be some level of greed post-revolution, we would have "socialism", which is not yet communism, but on the road to it. This would weed out all the useless residue from the Bourgeois system.

As for it not working in the past, we understand WHY they have failed in the past. It would be stupid and unmaterialistic to ignore that Marxism paves the way for progress, and that although there have been issues in the past, we can resolve these scientifically and practically. Again, I would urge you to look into exactly why socialism failed in USSR, China, Spain etc, and come to your own conclusions, but the biggest trajedy would be if you blanketed the whole movement negatively simply because the material conditions for change were not present in the past. There are many writers which helped to explain the failings of socialism, among them are Leon Trotsky and Antonio Gramsci, whose ideas I'm sure, if you spent more time with us here on the board, you would come in contact with, and give you food for thought on this topic.

[cyu]

Well obviously bosses get money by selling you as short as possible, that is the way this society works, not perfect by any means, but people tend to do well enough.

People only do "well enough" because leftists are always fighting the capitalists. If they didn't, things would start going downhill pretty quickly. In Colombia, they murder union activists. Pro-capitalist politicians in other nations then promote trade relationships with Colombia that will keep their business leaders in power, allowing them to increase their influence. Just recently, 3 union activists in Venezuela were murdered at a Colombian-owned business - you'd think a leftist stronghold like Venezuela would be the last place this would happen, but obviously not. If you let the capitalists take an inch, they will take a mile.


I don't think Communism will work primarily because of human greed

Humans have been, at times, just about everything, depending on what their culture has indoctrinated them with. Some cultures have found women with bound and unnaturally tiny feet sexually appealing. Some cultures refuse to eat beef, others pork, others refuse to eat dogs, cats, and aborted children or the fat left over from liposuction (not that I'm looking forward to a dish of fetus myself, mind you =P )

Some humans are brainwashed into thinking torturing one another is acceptable. Others are brainwashed into thinking becoming monks, nuns, or mystics is the right path. Others are brainwashed into thinking they need to have the latest version of the iPhone or that they should volunteer their time to help others.

I just see cultural brainwashing / media advertising as a tool. You can either use it to do good things, bad things, or useless things.



Oh, and also because people often have different interpretations of Communism, like Stalin and Trotsky.


I don't believe in communist holy men or prophets - just adopt the ideas you like, reject the ones you don't like, and try to come up with replacements for the parts you don't like. Then either try to communicate your ideas to others or see if they have ideas you'd like to incorporate into your own. It's an evolutionary process.

[Shadowed Intent]

But the point is that most western countries fear Communism now.

[BlackCapital]

But the point is that most western countries fear Communism now.

Are you talking about the State(bourgeois) or the people?

The reality is both fear it I suppose. The Bourgeois fears it obviously because it seeks to abolish the brutal, exploitive system that they've so massively profited from. Most people fear it due to propaganda from the state (McCarthyism, red scare, ect.).

The key to this is exposing what exactly capitalism is, and how its effecting them. First we have to expose and effectively discredit capitalism, then we can explain communist theory and principles without the stigma it tends to carry.

[Annie K.]

Some western countries. Most of european population do not support communism, but don't fear it.

[ZeroNowhere]

But the point is that most western countries fear Communism now.
Correct, it is common sense that communism is impossible.

[Post-Something]

But the point is that most western countries fear Communism now.

This is very true, and it's an issue we on the left have to take very seriously. First of all, it's very important that we understand WHY people fear communism:

If you look at society, you will quickly notice that there are two layers; there is the economic base, and there is the superstructure. In the economic base we have all the means of production, the relations etc etc. And in the superstructure, we have things like culture, education, media, religion and language. The economic base directly affects the superstructure, and you can draw correllations between the two. Now, what we have in the system of capitalism, is that the class with the dominant position in the economic base, is the Bourgeoisie, or "the ruling class". Since they have most of the power there, they are able to then transfer their power to other institutions in society.

Take religion for example, traditionally, all ruling classes have used religion to justify their position. Under Feudalism, people actually believed they were stratified in society by order of God, and that those who held power were ENTITLED to their position! This is demonstrated here in this 19th century hymn:

The rich man in his castle

The poor man at his gate

God made them highly and lowly

And ordered their estate

And when capitalism came about, this attitude changed to the "work hard, do your best, don't ask questions, and God will reward you, even if it's not in this life" line of thought.

This can be demonstrated in loads of areas, for example, education for all people was only brought into Britain BECAUSE they were too stupid to run the machines that became available during the industrial revolution, so for the benefit of the capitalists, they were educated to that level, BUT not educated enough to be able to think any more than that. This isn't some weird hocus pocus plot theory, that's just the way the system works, for the benefit of those who have control over it.

Now, if you look at the issue at hand, communism is obviously not good for the ruling class. They will not be able to keep their position in society. They like their extravagant wealth and easy living, so that gets put through in the media, and that gets indoctrined in kids from a young age. Turn on the tv, it's telling you to be competitive, it's creating demand for products you don't need by advertising, and it's telling you to forget about the real issues at hand. Sometimes it's even blatent anti-communism.

Actually, I think a comrade pointed out the McCarthyist era in America. This was a prime example. I'm actually writing an essay on it right now. The ruling class will do anything to take yoyu away from your economic interests, they will do anything to smear the left. For example, during the 1950's (during the cold war), they made it compulsory for school kids to say the pledge of allegiance, and they also made the national motto "In God we trust", which is printed on all their money. This was done precisely to create the image that the commies are bad, and America had God on it's side.

Ask the average person what communism is, they probably won't know much more than the Bourgeois lies they've been spoonfed. Ask them why they dislike it so much, or won't even consider it, "oh but Stalin was a dictator!". Well, maybe he was, but there was a reason for that. And to dismiss an entire body of thought, simply because of a very small way in which it can be applied, is not taking a very truthful look at the situation, and certainly has to be challenged.

Now, how do we go about counteracting this mentality? We've already established that socialism is entirely "for the people", and that it is in their interests in every way. Well, the simple answer is education. People have to understand their historical role, and what they are capable of doing. This is something Marx called "Class consciousness". By organising together, by showing everyone that we don't necessarilly need things like poverty, unemployment, war and competition in society, they will eventually see their exploitation.

By doing what you're ding now, by questioning your beliefs, and you're upbringing, you're denying the influence they've put on you. We just have to get as many people as possible to do that.

[cyu]

most western countries fear Communism now.


I wouldn't say that. I would instead say that it is only the capitalists that own most of the big businesses in western countries that "fear" communism now.

Children fear getting poked with a needle too, even if it means it will save their lives. You just have to think of various ways to dispel that fear.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

http://bloggdolu.zip.net/images/PeterFrampton.jpg

[BlackCapital]

every year Britain disposes of mountains of grain and rivers of milk due to overproduction, simply to keep prices artificially high, it's quite obvious that a capitalist economy is innefficient, unstable and based entirely on profit.

I try to explain this exact concept to people and I am often times met with "no, I don't believe this" or "how do you know". The fact is actually I guess I don't know, although it makes alot of sense and I have heard it many times. Can anyone give any solid evidence of this and/or more examples? And this does apply to all western capitalist societies, correct?

[Post-Something]

I try to explain this exact concept to people and I am often times met with "no, I don't believe this" or "how do you know". The fact is actually I guess I don't know, although it makes alot of sense and I have heard it many times. Can anyone give any solid evidence of this and/or more examples? And this does apply to all western capitalist societies, correct?

Sure! Basically, capitalism is a system that runs on competition. When you have so many people competing to make things then you get too many. It's as simple as that! This is because capitalism is not rational. It does not look at the situation and assess whether a community needs a store or not, capitalists simply act on what is best for their profits. If Socialism was in place, we would be in control of the distribution of resources, and we would be able to guage what we needed and what we didn't. Why? Because we're theones who actually use the products!

As for examples, well, it happens in all capitalist countries!

Here's an article from the BMJ:


Summary points Current dietary energy supply is more than sufficient to alleviate starvation worldwide and is forecasted to grow for another 25 years
Agriculture subsidies coupled to production distort the balance between supply and demand, leading to overconsumption and obesity
Overproduction of food in rich countries using trade distorting measures undermines the agricultural sectors in developing countries, hindering the eradication of hunger and poverty
Phasing out of agricultural producer support in developed countries is the first step in the fight against both obesity and hunger

Source (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/331/7528/1333)

[ev]

I recommend this thread is trashed or moved to OI, obviously Shadowed Intent is trolling or just arrogant and is not worth the time of our members. The fact that this thread still has people wasting their time of this piece of shit is an indication that we have a patient community who should not have to spend their valuable time explaining to someone who has neither the inclination or will to learn about our ideologies as exemplified:


well yes, but honestly, I cant be bothered to read up on it at the moment, I will eventually, and I don't care about being unique, Id rather be myself.

Exemplified arrogance:



I don't care what you buy and I don't care whether my superiority is 'false', it is comforting.


well yes, but honestly, I cant be bothered to read up on it at the moment, I will eventually, and I don't care about being unique, Id rather be myself.


Obvious a troll or arrogant fuck that doesn't deserve our time, this community has done enough to inform you where we stand, either:

Option A) Bother to learn.

Option B) Kindly fuck off.

If you choose the later I'm sure our admins will be kind enough to accommodate your needs, if you choose option A we have a book recommendation section and a complete forum full of information to make you less of a pretentious fuck than what you are now ;)

[Shadowed Intent]

Heh, how kind *bows* you have my sincere apologies if I do not meet your or your communities standards, it is a shame you feel this way, since I have rather enjoyed speaking to your comrades about the issues. I do intend to learn about these things in the near future, however I have been avoiding doing such, since I recently finished the school year, and have been rather tired.

On another note, there really is no need to use such language.

[ev]

Heh, how kind *bows* you have my sincere apologies if I do not meet your or your communities standards, it is a shame you feel this way, since I have rather enjoyed speaking to your comrades about the issues. I do intend to learn about these things in the near future, however I have been avoiding doing such, since I recently finished the school year, and have been rather tired.

On another note, there really is no need to use such language.

Mmm, your lack of understanding pissed me off, what can I say..

I can assume you'll be taking option a).

If so I hope you can make some positive contributions to this community.

[Shadowed Intent]

Mmm, your lack of understanding pissed me off, what can I say..

I can assume you'll be taking option a).

If so I hope you can make some positive contributions to this community.

Indeed, I hope so also.