when is a fascist... ...not a fascist?

[Dr Mindbender]

Further to a little debate between myself and the former group mod, we are unable to reach a conclusion as to where to draw the line when it comes to classifying someone as a nazi or not.

For example, someone who votes BNP could be said that they are complicit with helping the BNP come to power, but equally in the absence of a credible alternative they vote out of lack of choice even though they don't necessarilly agree with their views on immigration or race. Also someone may not be theoretically astute, but mildly supportive of the BNP and potentially be 'winnable' to our side which is the point being put forward by Holden Caulfield.

Should the regular voter or lukewarm sympathiser be treated with equal or comparable contempt to the average BNP member and activist? Where is the distinction?

Views?

[Holden Caulfield]

it is a case by case thing, i never suggested any blanket generalisation, I'm not even going to get involved here I hope you all circular aruge yourselves to death

[Dr Mindbender]

fine then, can we put this whole 'wanting to rebrand BNP sympathisers' campaign of yours to bed then?


Also its not a case by case thing when it comes to other fascists so i still dont see why the BNP deserve special treatment.

[Holden Caulfield]

i dont care if you dont get it, but there are leagues between those who might support or sympathise with the BNP (as i first said people like you made this solely about members) who pose as a right populist party and those who sympathise with the BPP who swastika flags through their website

[Dr Mindbender]

i still think that the leagues that you refer to (albeit however loosely) share similar or equal political objectives. If a working class person is ever going to have mildly leftist leaning tendencies i think they are going to start off in the labour party despite the fact that it is a reactionary shadow of its former self. The labour party has traditionally been the home of the broad working class left, it always has been and probably will remain that way despite their new shitty ways for some time to come.

[scarletghoul]

Well yeah, the differance is obvious. A member of the BNP is not the same as just someone that votes for them. Most voters are not politically certain.
It is wrong to compare the members to members of the Labour Party. The labour party is very old and has changed a lot so there is obviously a mixture of leftists to rightists in there, whereas the BNP is a relatively recent party and has not changed its position that radically.

[jaffe]

Further to a little debate between myself and the former group mod, we are unable to reach a conclusion as to where to draw the line when it comes to classifying someone as a nazi or not. Nazi is shortening term for a National socialist. More
specifically a member from the NSDAP, the former NS-party from Germany.
These terms were used about 70 years ago. People who still sympathise with the former 3th Reich are called neo-nazis. Branding everything that's not on your political line as nazis is maybe not the smartest thing to do.
http://www.geocities.com/trucmetbaard/rick.jpg
I think the BNP has changed from a former extreme right wing bonehead party to a 'respectable' suit-and-tie populist party.


For example, someone who votes BNP could be said that they are complicit with helping the BNP come to power, but equally in the absence of a credible alternative they vote out of lack of choice even though they don't necessarilly agree with their views on immigration or race. Also someone may not be theoretically astute, but mildly supportive of the BNP and potentially be 'winnable' to our side which is the point being put forward by Holden Caulfield.
Views?
I think the party BNP should be combatted, not the people voting for it. we have to show why for example BNP is not the solution for the voter and why direct democracy and anarcho-communism is.:D

[Dr Mindbender]

well i was a member of the 'anti nazi league' before the UAF days and we didnt attend BNP events for the good of our health.

:rolleyes:

[jaffe]

meaning?:confused:

[Dr Mindbender]

meaning?:confused:


if the bnp werent even loosely nazi why would the ANL be protesting against them?

[jaffe]

:D

http://images.quizilla.com/V/Vodex/1124304168_rick2.jpg


Branding everything that's not on your political line as nazis is maybe not the smartest thing to do.

[Devrim]

I think that the real question here is whether fascism has any meaning today. We have 'fascist' parties in our country. In the recent past these peole have murder thousands (i.e. they are a bit more serious than the BNP). Today they sit in parliment, and were even in the government before last.

So what does fascist mean?

I would like to give two examples;

A few months ago I was talking to some young people who were going on about fascists. I thought they were complaining about the traditional fascist parties in Turkey. It turned out that they were calling the CHP(Republican People's Party-member of the second international) fascist. Now in my opinion the CHP is a nasty nationalist party, but then so is the Labour Party, witness Gordon 'the veil' Brown.

So what does fascism mean here?

About a year ago I was on a striking workers picket line. One guy, (and one guy only, our stuff is generally very well recived, and was in particular in this strike) refused to take a leaflet. I noticed he was wearing the badge of a fascist party (MHP). What would you suggest doing in this situation? Attacking striking workers?

Devrim

[thejambo1]

not everyone who votes bnp or is even a member of the bnp is a fascist, some see it as more of a nationalist thing. there is no doubt they have a fascist and racist following. i think we should not be debating with them on revleft no matter how o.k. they seem to be.

[Dr Mindbender]

nonetheless i think you have to have some fascistic theory in your mind to want to sign up to them. Otherwise, why not settle for something more moderate for ukip or the tories?

We cant afford to tolerate them here though because it would create a precedence.

[Devrim]

I just want to make it clear that I would ban members of the BNP*.

My points were about the nature of fascist organisations, and the leftist reaction to them.

Devrim

*I would also close OI and ban members of the English 'Tory' party for example'.

[thejambo1]

nonetheless i think you have to have some fascistic theory in your mind to want to sign up to them. Otherwise, why not settle for something more moderate for ukip or the tories?

We cant afford to tolerate them here though because it would create a precedence.
yes i agree that even if you do not consider yourself a nazi/fascist it must be in your make-up to even consider joining the likes of the bnp. as for ukip they are just the party that dissolusioned bnp'ers join when they see through policies of the bnp.

[Holden Caulfield]

yes i agree that even if you do not consider yourself a nazi/fascist it must be in your make-up to even consider joining the likes of the bnp
a good deal of people are rascist, it is due to the hegemonic drilling of ideas into our class by the media, a media which is owned the the ruling elite and which often clings on to outdated imperialist dogma in order to perpetuate the conditions of the working classes. The bourgeois put massive effort into keeping the working classes divided and therefore weak, many men on the miners strikes were rascist, how many london dockers supported Enoch, it is through education and activism with and to the disillusioned working classes that we will make head way in the fight against fascism and in the class stuggle.

Sitting in your ivory tower looking down at the plebs and saying people are genetically fascist is ignorant in the extreme.

the BNP present themselves as a populist right wing party and stand as a working class party, people see the failures of Tories and New Labour and so the BNP are an attractive consideration, especially since NL and the Tories have been spreading much of the same rascist shite for decades.

You are really making yourself look bad saying all BNP supporters/members are really nazis deep down, have a bit of common sense beyond the bounds of 'nazis are bad'

[Melbourne Lefty]

Should the regular voter or lukewarm sympathiser be treated with equal or comparable contempt to the average BNP member and activist?

No.

A person who votes for a political party because they feel themselves threatened culturally and economically is not the same as someone working towards a racially based agenda.



the BNP present themselves as a populist right wing party and stand as a working class party, people see the failures of Tories and New Labour and so the BNP are an attractive consideration,

Also remember that the hardcore base of the BNP was never higher than 1000, they have recruited the next 9000 as a right-populist party, not as a nazi party.

People are desperate and angry, and rightly so. Some of them Join the BNP and believe what the BNP says about itself because they WANT it to be true.

So to answer your question I wouldnt even classify most BNP members as fascist, let alone voters.

They get 800,000 votes in the last euro elections didnt they? I highly doubt that there are that many fascists in any western country.

[Melbourne Lefty]

if the bnp werent even loosely nazi why would the ANL be protesting against them?


Its time to be honest.

Sometimes anti-nazi activism, whilst playing a valuable role in keeping down the far right, is also done to help recruit people to the revolutionary left with an issue that is uncontroversial and easy to understand.

Theres no shame in it, its the way all political movements work, set up a single issue protest group and use it to draw in politically minded people who might be interested in other struggles.

[Holden Caulfield]

if the bnp werent even loosely nazi why would the ANL be protesting against them?
that is a pretty weak argument, the SWP set up organisations seem to think screaming "NAZI" will all of a sudden make their enemies collapse and make all their supporters join RESPECT

[Everyone's Comrade]

They get 800,000 votes in the last euro elections didnt they? I highly doubt that there are that many fascists in any western country.

Wouldn't be too sure about that if I were you. Think of Austria (Freedom Party), Italy (Lega Nord), Belgium (Vlaams Balang), as well as other scum dwellers like the BNP in Britain and the NPD in Germany.

It's high time we stopped shouting about what is wrong with these parties and started actually presenting an alternative for the working class. It's time to get communism back in the picture and in the minds of the working class, because there'll be hell to pay if we don't. Remember it only needs one of these parties to get power and all the fascists suddenly found themselves a large financial backer to spread their shite further.

[Junius]

I would like to see someone address Devrim's points.

Briefly, because I have to leave, I think the distinction between fascist and non-fascist parties is deliberately distorted by the leftist parties for their own gain. But it is also the case that there is little difference between so-called fascist parties and other leftist parties. I think fascism can be explained by a historical and theoretical approach concerning its character. Leftist groups tend to label anyone whom opposes them, or holds nationalist ideas, as fascist, contrary to what fascism historically and theoretically is.

In Thailand, for example, you have the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) opposed by the National United Front of Democracy Against Dictatorship (UDD). Both parties are ruling class parties, however. The former is 'hyper-nationalist', supported by prominent media moguls, army generals and state-labor unions. The latter is supporter of the deposed billionaire and the former prime minister whom lead the state purges of university leftists in the 70s and was supported by ultra-right wing para-military groups. Various 'human rights' organisations have described both parties as fascist, and they refer to each other as undemocratic. Each of them, of course, hold the true mantle of democracy!

So, here the leftist talk about 'fighting fascism' falls to the dirt because it lacks a class analysis and rests on empty moralism. Left Communists look at whose class interests movements serve. In this case we see that both parties are ruling class parties and hence serve those interests. Anti-fascism, hence, is just a pretense for the support of one ruling party against another.

[thejambo1]

a good deal of people are rascist, it is due to the hegemonic drilling of ideas into our class by the media, a media which is owned the the ruling elite and which often clings on to outdated imperialist dogma in order to perpetuate the conditions of the working classes. The bourgeois put massive effort into keeping the working classes divided and therefore weak, many men on the miners strikes were rascist, how many london dockers supported Enoch, it is through education and activism with and to the disillusioned working classes that we will make head way in the fight against fascism and in the class stuggle.

Sitting in your ivory tower looking down at the plebs and saying people are genetically fascist is ignorant in the extreme.

the BNP present themselves as a populist right wing party and stand as a working class party, people see the failures of Tories and New Labour and so the BNP are an attractive consideration, especially since NL and the Tories have been spreading much of the same rascist shite for decades.

You are really making yourself look bad saying all BNP supporters/members are really nazis deep down, have a bit of common sense beyond the bounds of 'nazis are bad'
i am sitting in no fucking ivory tower!! i stand by what i say. working class people who support the bnp know full well what they are joining. you can dress it up all you want but deep down its a racist,fascist organization. they are a shower of shit that should have no platform and certainly not on here.

[jaffe]

Anti-fascism, hence, is just a pretense for the support of one ruling party against another.

I think this is true to a certain point. That's why I hate for example people shouting don't vote that party! they're nazis! but don't offer any alternative. Or even worse they say vote anything but not the nazi-party. I think battling WN/right wing populist party's/ideas has a purpose. Because these ideas tend to divert the working class through race and or nationalist lines.
And IMHO being anti-racist is not empty moralism.

[Dr Mindbender]

turning people away from the bnp on revleft does not pre-require having bnp members or their ilk actually here. I think what holden is doing is grossly over-estimating the scale of floating bnp sympathisers that can be turned towards the left. If they're considering joining the bnp, they're probably already hopelessly reactionary to be convinced from doing otherwise. In their mindset, bosses arent too bad and immigrants are the parasites.

I think we'd be better off concentrating on the undecided majority that have no such prejudices and focus on them. Once the BNP starts sinking, which i'm confident it will what with the leaked list fiasco the proverbial rats will soon come running.

[jaffe]

turning people away from the bnp on revleft does not pre-require having bnp members or their ilk actually here. I think what holden is doing is grossly over-estimating the scale of floating bnp sympathisers that can be turned towards the left. If they're considering joining the bnp, they're probably already hopelessly reactionary to be convinced from doing otherwise. In their mindset, bosses arent too bad and immigrants are the parasites.

I think we'd be better off concentrating on the undecided majority that have no such prejudices and focus on them. Once the BNP starts sinking, which i'm confident it will what with the leaked list fiasco the proverbial rats will soon come running.
In Rotterdam (Netherlands) a newcomming populist recieved 1/3 of the vote. He was very anti-immigrant/anti-islam. He was shot dead and his party that constisted of oppurtunistic people feel apart very quikley. A few years after that the PVDA (labour) recieved almost al it seats back in wonce lost to this populist. I think you've a distorted view on what the average populist voter is. You can't say all of them aren't racist douchebags 'cause most of the times votes going to such partys are protest votes.

[Dr Mindbender]

In Rotterdam (Netherlands) a newcomming populist recieved 1/3 of the vote. He was very anti-immigrant/anti-islam. He was shot dead and his party that constisted of oppurtunistic people feel apart very quikley. A few years after that the PVDA (labour) recieved almost al it seats back in wonce lost to this populist. I think you've a distorted view on what the average populist voter is. You can't say all of them aren't racist douchebags 'cause most of the times votes going to such partys are protest votes.

i'm not talking about voters, but bona fide full card carrying members.

You're making the same mistake as holden by mish mashing voters and members. I understand people's material circumstances may lead them to vote BNP, especially when there is no viable alternative and they happen to be politically ignorant. I'm not saying that voters should be automatically banned. As has been said, there is a massive difference to putting a x in a box and actually contributing funds or signing contracts.

[thejambo1]

i'm not talking about voters, but bona fide full card carrying members.

You're making the same mistake as holden by mish mashing voters and members. I understand people's material circumstances may lead them to vote BNP, especially when there is no viable alternative and they happen to be politically ignorant. I'm not saying that voters should be automatically banned. As has been said, there is a massive difference to putting a x in a box and actually contributing funds or signing contracts.
spot on!! if you have already have become a card carrying member your mind is made up about what you believe. you are not a floating voter who thinks they have a few good ideas, you have bought into it big style.

[Melbourne Lefty]

That's why I hate for example people shouting don't vote that party! they're nazis! but don't offer any alternative.


I know.

I am wary of the SWP but I at least credit them for giving SOME alternative, even if it seems to have fallen over.

Seriously why go out on the streets and tell people to vote Labour or Lib Dem? Cos thats what modern british anti-fascism seems to be.

Wasnt there the IWCA or something a while ago? That looked promising.



spot on!! if you have already have become a card carrying member your mind is made up about what you believe. you are not a floating voter who thinks they have a few good ideas, you have bought into it big style.


Im not so sure thats true.

I know plenty of people in political parties who are only marginally attracted to the ethos of that party, I even know activists who are the same.

None of those are far right parties, but even so I dont know if a broad brush stroke can work here.

Im not interested in winning racists over to the left. Im more interested in understanding the far right to discover why they seem to be doing so much better than the 'far left' in europe, and whether we can 'borrow' some of their tactics.

[Holden Caulfield]

i said at the start of the discussion "supporters, sympathisers, even members" the members was a tiny part of what I said, in the discussion,
please, for the love of Marx, stop making it out that i'm saying all BNP members are not fascists, i have first hand experience that alot of them are (posting pics on redwatch).

please? can you do this for me? please? for fucks sake before i break my lap top any more than i already have

[communard resolution]

i am sitting in no fucking ivory tower!! i stand by what i say. working class people who support the bnp know full well what they are joining. you can dress it up all you want but deep down its a racist,fascist organization. they are a shower of shit that should have no platform and certainly not on here.Okay, here's an anecdotal example: I know somebody personally who voted for the BNP in the last local elections. Now she's the sweetest thing in the world, not a racist or fascist, even has some fairly close black and jewish friends - not to mention myself, who's not even British. Trouble is, she's completely fucking clueless when it comes to politics. Her parents read the Daily Mail and leave it on the breakfast table for her to read. After reading too much of that rag, my friend has come to believe that there is a massive terrorist threat posed by 'the Muslims' who come to the UK, hate everybody who lives here and our "way of life", and just can't wait to blow us all up. So after having been exposed to some BNP slogans somewhere, she thought that the BNP were "the only party who really want to do something against the Muslim terrorists", never mind the rest of their programme, of which she has no idea. She's an idiot when it comes to politics, but she's not an idiot otherwise.

I was fairly shocked when I heard she actually voted for the BNP, but the way she told me (and her other non-British or non-Aryan friends) as if it were the most normal thing in the world demonstrated how unaware she was of the nature of that party. I could have reacted very aggressively and shunned her forever, but I didn't. Instead, I'm trying to talk to her and open her eyes to what the BNP is (as well as giving her some info on the Daily Mail and their hatred of minorities).

Now if you physically attacked my friend for being a "fascist", I think we would have a problem. Don't you think there might be a lot of cases just like that?

[Dr Mindbender]

Okay, here's an anecdotal example: I know somebody personally who voted for the BNP in the last local elections. Now she's the sweetest thing in the world, not a racist or fascist, even has some fairly close black and jewish friends - not to mention myself, who's not even British. Trouble is, she's completely fucking clueless when it comes to politics. Her parents read the Daily Mail and leave it on the breakfast table for her to read. After reading too much of that rag, my friend has come to believe that there is a massive terrorist threat posed by 'the Muslims' who come to the UK, hate everybody who lives here and our "way of life", and just can't wait to blow us all up. So after having been exposed to some BNP slogans somewhere, she thought that the BNP were "the only party who really want to do something against the Muslim terrorists", never mind the rest of their programme, of which she has no idea. She's an idiot when it comes to politics, but she's not an idiot otherwise.

I was fairly shocked when I heard she actually voted for the BNP, but the way she told me (and her other non-British or non-Aryan friends) as if it were the most normal thing in the world demonstrated how unaware she was of the nature of that party. I could have reacted very aggressively and shunned her forever, but I didn't. Instead, I'm trying to talk to her and open her eyes to what the BNP is (as well as giving her some info on the Daily Mail and their hatred of minorities).

Now if you physically attacked my friend for being a "fascist", I think we would have a problem. Don't you think there might be a lot of cases just like that?


quite, but i'm not arguing that BNP voters are necessarilly the same as members. I think you'd agree that you'd be a thousand times more shocked if you discovered your friend had joined rather than just voting for them.

[Dr Mindbender]

i said at the start of the discussion "supporters, sympathisers, even members" the members was a tiny part of what I said, in the discussion,
please, for the love of Marx, stop making it out that i'm saying all BNP members are not fascists, i have first hand experience that alot of them are (posting pics on redwatch).

please? can you do this for me? please? for fucks sake before i break my lap top any more than i already have


no what i think you are doing is overestimating the number of BNP members that can be converted to any other flavour of politics, let alone revolutionary leftism. I certain dont think the margin is something we need to dwell on. Isolated anecdotal cases arent 'proof' that there is a significant figure.

[communard resolution]

quite, but i'm not arguing that BNP voters are necessarilly the same as members. I think you'd agree that you'd be a thousand times more shocked if you discovered your friend had joined rather than just voting for them.

In this case I would have to regard her as an enemy and would probably let her know about that.

But as of recent I've been thinking more and more about the arguments typically put forward by the left communists on here: to what extent would the BNP's policies really differ to those perpetuated by New Labour or the Tory party if they gained any significant election successes (which they're unlikely to as of now)? I think the Lefts may have a point.

I'm more worried about 'street fascism' rather than what party gets how many votes in paliamentary elections. There are cities in Russia that have become near unlivable because they're so heavily controlled by neo-nazi groups. These neo-nazis don't talk or participate in elections, they go out and murder. In Russia, this means two corpses a week on average.

This is real fascism (or whatever you prefer to call it) at work, right now, with immediate fatal results - not in some imagined "if the BNP take over" scenario. It doesn't really matter what parties hold power in the Duma because it's really the fascists who rule the country, and they do so by holding the power in the streets. Just ask any member of an ethnic, sexual, political, religious, or cultural minority in Russia. This is in my view of enormous importance and a factor that left communists tend to neglect.

EDIT: I also can't help the impression that most of the whole BNP scare is created by the SWP and related groups who use it as a front to gain membership. On the one hand, it's a fair enough tactic, SWP or not: you've got to address issues that people feel strongly about, and since the SWP aim at young people, "Nazi" always comes in handy as an emotion-stirring scare word. But on the other hand, I personally just don't believe them anymore. I don't think the current threat that the BNP pose is half as big as the SWP/UAF rather hysterically make it out to be. It's all rather flattering to the BNP really.

When I hear the SWP/UAF permanently shout about the BNP, I get the feeling that they blow it all out of proportion because they want to use me - same as the BNP stir hysteria about immigrants/terrorists/etc in the hope of gaining power.

Why not focus on Russia instead, where there's a real and immediate fascist problem? Why not think of ways to help our comrades and fellow working class people to fight neo-nazism there? We're internationalists, aren't we? Why the fetishistic obsession with the BNP?

[Holden Caulfield]

Isolated anecdotal cases arent 'proof' that there is a significant figure.i offered to use my own town, with empirical and supported evidence as proof but you said this isn't the trend everywhere and you wouldnt know if I was lying.

Would you like me to conduct a full and indepth study of the entire country just to prove a point i don't particularly care about?


I also can't help the impression that most of the whole BNP scare is created by the SWP and related groups who use it as a front to gain membership.well that one sure as fuck backfired if it is true because we are losing, i personally think its a conspiracy by the reptillian jewish masons

[Rosa Provokateur]

A fascist is anyone who uses violence or terror to impose and/or enforce their ideas. You could be a hardcore NSM officer but if you arent using violence or terror, you arent a fascist although you might philosophically agree with fascism.

[Holden Caulfield]

A fascist is anyone who uses violence or terror to impose and/or enforce their ideas. You could be a hardcore NSM officer but if you arent using violence or terror, you arent a fascist although you might philosophically agree with fascism.

no, are we really going to start this debate again? start by looking up the word 'fascist' in a dictionary,

violence is a method, fascism is an ideology

I support the use of antifascist and revolutionary violence, i do not think this makes me a fascist?


non-violence is the negative basis of slavery
so says Albert Camus

also what is your opinion on damage to property? is this also 'fascist'

[Sasha]

G.A. i thought we were going to restart this discussion in the antifa section only after you have read the book i tipped you and we discussed it?

did you read it? no? here it is again, its not that long, you should be able to read it in a weekend;
to buy it: http://www.akpress.org/2005/items/hownonviolenceprotectsthestate
and if you cant spare a 10'r, the pirate download: http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4355288/HOW_NONVIOLENCE_PROTECTS_THE_STATE_-_Peter_Gelderloos

come back after you'r done...

[Oswy]

If the BNP are engaged in the practice of populism, which I very much think they are, they gain support simply by targetting a given demographic, or even individual, with 'solutions' to whatever that group or individual has issues over. In this way the BNP probably get votes by telling people they're campaigining to keep the local school or post-offce open, or make the buses cheaper, and so on. By using a populist approach they no doubt get plenty of uninformed people to vote for them and who have no notion of the underlying neo-Nazism they constitue at the deeper level. It follows that some numbers of BNP voters possibly have no fascist or racist sympathies whatsoever but are simply being lured by people who say they'll solve the problems others don't appear interested in. This is dangerous in my view because once people start supporting a party there's a tendency to rationalise when confronted with aspects of that party which are not otherwise consistent with personal values; in other words people get drawn into the fascism and racism because by defending the BNP they are defending themselves, in their decision to vote for them.

[Holden Caulfield]

they're campaigining to keep the local school or post-offce open, or make the buses cheaper, and so indeed, we must participate in these campaigns, as political parties, and use them as a platform to show our political superiority and to attack the BNP on issues the people care about in the here and now. As happened in the North East this year, the SP met them on the platform sold a lot of papers and undermined the 'BNP working for the people feel' of proceedings, the SWP turned up and said 'we would stand a RESPECT candidate' and then did not become involved in the same way the SP did, i think different tactics are very important in different situations.


uninformed people to vote for them and who have no notion of the underlying neo-Nazism I do not think that any person in a position of authority and respect in the community, should be supporting a White Nationalist party, it is not because I think they are fascists but because the party propagates a 'whites first' policy.

[Rosa Provokateur]

no, are we really going to start this debate again? start by looking up the word 'fascist' in a dictionary,

violence is a method, fascism is an ideology

I support the use of antifascist and revolutionary violence, i do not think this makes me a fascist?
so says Albert Camus

also what is your opinion on damage to property? is this also 'fascist'
I said anyone who uses violence or terror to impose/enforce ideas on others. If you force your stuff on other people then you violate their rights and thats fascism.

It depends on the property, if its possible to turn it into something productive then I'd oppose it but then again property is neither human and it has no soul.

[Holden Caulfield]

I said anyone who uses violence or terror to impose/enforce ideas on others. If you force your stuff on other people then you violate their rights and thats fascism.

It depends on the property, if its possible to turn it into something productive then I'd oppose it but then again property is neither human and it has no soul.i have no 'soul' and I do not force my ideas upon others but i would use violence to stop others freely spreading their own ideas,

am i a fascist?

[Oswy]

I don't want to derail the thread, but I've always thought the following a good definition of fascism as a social phenomenon (as opposed to a an abstracted political philosophy):


A form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion. –Robert O. Paxton, The Anatomy of Fascism .

[bolshevik butcher]

I think that in some ways the Rik from the young ones picture is exceedingly relevant to the manner in which certain organisations on the British left have delt with dealing with fascism/the far right. Just to give an annacdote, one of the SWP's main organisers at Glasgow Uni regularly writes for the paper, sometimes the content isn't too bad, on straightforward issues like student debt or privatised accomdation. In a recnet article on the BNP he quite well established that fascism is a threat in that it is a physical threat to the left and wider labour movement from organising, and its role in atomising the working class. However what was the conclusion? Liberals, anarchists and socialists must unite to fight fascism :confused:

This kind of attitude is not only a complete misunderstanding of what fascism is- the most brutal face of the bourgoisie that it will lean on as a last resort to attempt to break the working class. Thus it represents the same class interest as liberalism, how can someone who advocates independent working class organising possibly advocate allying with liberalism against fascism, haven't they read about what a popular front is and where it all went wrong previously? And I don't just mean in the 1930's. There has been a myth built around the Anti-Nazi League, it was also a popular front, it was supported by the young tories! Who stopped the National Front? Was it the ANL's concerts and marches around town or was it the militant organisation of the left and labour movement and people from ethnic minorites in working class communities who opposed fascists on the streets and won viscious street battles, with the most famous being at Lewisham when the National Front were forceably broken up and unable to organise to the same extent again.

The question of the BNP and how to combat them will not just be solved by stopping them from organising however, fundementally this is a political question that requires a political answer from the left. The BNP are not gaining strength because a fairly large swathe of the poorest sections of British society are discovering white nationalism, it is a product of the vaccum that has been left by a weakened labour movmenet which is virtually non-existatn on the ground and certainly not offering a solution to the problems of working class people. Is it surprising people are tempted towards the only party they see in their area that seems to offer a solution to the shutting down of local school and hospitals or the abscense of decent social housing? Unless the left is willing to organise effectively on the ground here and not only combate fascism but also offer a genuine socialist solution then it will lose ground to the BNP.

[Holden Caulfield]

great post, maybe to highlight a point you already made, but it is important to remember antifascism is a movement and MUST go hand in hand with our own political organisation and promotion. I, and another good antifascists recognise this. Although we usually talk about direct action, no-platform etc we should, and do, put forth our own ideology into the everyday lives of the workers as this is just, if not more, important in the class struggle and therefore the fight against fascism.

and as for the SWP/ANL and popular fronts, another example would be UAF, and StWC, etc,

[Melbourne Lefty]

I said anyone who uses violence or terror to impose/enforce ideas on others. If you force your stuff on other people then you violate their rights and thats fascism.


Violence is used by all political ideologies.



what fascism is- the most brutal face of the bourgoisie that it will lean on as a last resort to attempt to break the working class.


Simplistic analysis based only on class theory do not apply to modern right-populism.

The only way to defeat racism is to get the working class to think of itself AS the working class, something every modern anti-racism program fails to do.

Until that happens racism, which should properly be called tribalism, will continue to exist.

[Rosa Provokateur]

i have no 'soul' and I do not force my ideas upon others but i would use violence to stop others freely spreading their own ideas,

am i a fascist?

Partially. To use violence against others because of politics smacks of SA tactics.

[Rosa Provokateur]

Violence is used by all political ideologies.


So all political ideologies are in the wrong. I dont believe in ideologies anyhow, it narrows peoples thought-process.

[communard resolution]

So all political ideologies are in the wrong. I dont believe in ideologies anyhow, it narrows peoples thought-process.

If you believe yourself to be free of ideology, you are one extremely naive fella.

[bolshevik butcher]

Violence is used by all political ideologies.


Simplistic analysis based only on class theory do not apply to modern right-populism.

The only way to defeat racism is to get the working class to think of itself AS the working class, something every modern anti-racism program fails to do.

Until that happens racism, which should properly be called tribalism, will continue to exist.

So i suppose when i said;
The BNP are not gaining strength because a fairly large swathe of the poorest sections of British society are discovering white nationalism, it is a product of the vaccum that has been left by a weakened labour movmenet which is virtually non-existatn on the ground and certainly not offering a solution to the problems of working class people. Is it surprising people are tempted towards the only party they see in their area that seems to offer a solution to the shutting down of local school and hospitals or the abscense of decent social housing? Unless the left is willing to organise effectively on the ground here and not only combate fascism but also offer a genuine socialist solution then it will lose ground to the BNP.

I wasn't advocating a class conscious socialist response to the BNP or other far right parties?

And if you don't see these modern formation, fascist, right populist, tribalist or whatever other name you have given them in your ivory tower as a threat to the left and the wider working class then why bother combatting them?

Of course in the current period these parties are not going to take power but that doesn't mean that they don't represent a threat in many areas to working class unity, people from ethnic minoroties, and the ability of the left to organise or the working class to engage in struggle. How is your solution to this problem any different from mine except that you speak in very vague terms about the working class thinking of itself as a class rather than in terms of concrete methods.

Of course it's presented in terms of class theory! I am a Marxist, I won't appologise for that. I view political movements/ideologies as manifestations of the outlook and interests of different classes within society.