What will end the protests in Bangkok?

[RSS News]

Thai protesters are prepared to defend themselves against the police. How can the situation be resolved?

(Feed provided by BBC News | Have your Say (http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/2/hi/talking_point/default.stm))

[kollontai]

The King will have to step in; he is the only one to whom the PAD will listen. BBC's coverage is skewed, in my opinion, towards Thaksin's party, not that the PAD is any better.

Thaksin's party (in whatever incarnation) alternately bribes and intimidates the rural folks, so they have an undying & misguided loyalty to him. The international media keeps stressing how this is the "democratically elected government" and it's only the "urban elites" who want it changed. Elections in Thailand are such a joke; who wouldn't vote for the party putting a beer and 200 baht in your hand when that's what you'd make for a day of hard labor? Of course once they're in power you won't see any real changes.

(Of course the current PM, Thaksin's brother-in-law, was not democratically elected, but appointed after their last pick was forced to step down for continuing to be well compensated as part-owner of a television network, certainly a conflict of interests for a PM. The international media dumbed this serious situation down to "fired over hosting a cooking show.")

Meanwhile, the brainless and aimless PAD is sabotaging the people of their own country by brining to a halt the tourist industry, which I don't necessarily support, but it is the livelihood of so many. This has alienated many of those who would naturally support them, as messing with anyone's means of support would.

Either the military will finally step in and stage a coup with the King's support or the King will tell the PAD to in no uncertain terms to end the protests, but no matter what happens, the King will be the final word. I cannot believe that he has let this go on for so long.

It is so unfortunate that no matter who ends up in power, the people will continue to get fucked. No one has their interests in mind, though they are so prepared to put their faith and loyalty in any strong leader.

[Organic Revolution]

Why would you want to end the protests in Bangkok?

[Matty_UK]

Why would you want to end the protests in Bangkok?

The protests ARE made up of the urban middle class who have contempt for the rural poor who elected the current government, and are also the class behind the coup d'etat against Thaksin a few years back.

Clearly Thaksin et al are opportunists and definately not socialists, but we should oppose the protestors who are trying to undermine a government which at least gives some concessions to the poor. It moves the political spectrum left; look at Venezuela, the bourgeois opposition party now identifies as Social Democrat because they know their old platform dooms them even more. I'm not a reformist, but I do believe that once there are some gains it makes it easier to make more demands, and makes socialism look more realistic; and the Thai elite can't be allowed to set back any gains, no matter how superficial, won by the poor.

[kollontai]

The protests ARE made up of the urban middle class who have contempt for the rural poor who elected the current government, and are also the class behind the coup d'etat against Thaksin a few years back.

Clearly Thaksin et al are opportunists and definately not socialists, but we should oppose the protestors who are trying to undermine a government which at least gives some concessions to the poor. It moves the political spectrum left; look at Venezuela, the bourgeois opposition party now identifies as Social Democrat because they know their old platform dooms them even more. I'm not a reformist, but I do believe that once there are some gains it makes it easier to make more demands, and makes socialism look more realistic; and the Thai elite can't be allowed to set back any gains, no matter how superficial, won by the poor.

What gains? Loans to poor farmers and villages that have left them with debts they can never repay? They huge failure of OTOP to increase the income of local craftsmen in any meaningful way? Suvarnabhumi, which was built on a SNAKE PIT, had cracks on the runway within a year of its construction, and has caused extreme duress to those living in nearby neighborhoods who were never compensated as promised?

The 30 baht for heath care was a great and necessary reform, but it does not excuse crooked-businessman Thaksin or his party for USING the poorest people of his country, bribing them for votes, intimidating Tambon leaders to make sure their district votes the right way (or they get none of those great loans or OTOP money), giving free transport from the north and bribes to peasants to protest the PAD (which was when the violence started), etc. etc. etc.

His party has just as much contempt for the rural folks as the PAD, except the government has no shame in using them as mercenaries. They refuse to take education seriously so that they can continue to trick the people.

Though I cannot support the PAD, I have far more contempt for a government that lets its convicted ex-PM, who will be arrested for corruption if he ever sets foot on his native soil again, run the country from afar through the appointed PM, his brother-in-law. That is not democracy.

[Guerrilla22]

Well, I'm guessing if the PM were to step down that would do the trick.

[kollontai]

Well, I'm guessing if the PM were to step down that would do the trick.

Not likely. That happened a couple months ago when Samak was traded for Somchai. The PAD will not be satisfied with any PM appointed by the current administration.

[Demogorgon]

Isn't the problem that the PAD will not accept any elected Prime Minister at all? As I am given to understand it, they wish to change the political system so that Parliament is largely appointed by the king and the Government is responsible to him only so that the rural poor are shut out of Government altogether.

I don't have any time for Thaksin and his various puppets, but the PAD are making him look like the lesser evil right now.

[Matty_UK]

The 30 baht for heath care was a great and necessary reform, but it does not excuse crooked-businessman Thaksin or his party for USING the poorest people of his country, bribing them for votes, intimidating Tambon leaders to make sure their district votes the right way (or they get none of those great loans or OTOP money), giving free transport from the north and bribes to peasants to protest the PAD (which was when the violence started), etc. etc. etc.


I hope you aren't saying universal healthcare and village level Keynesianism is equivalent to "bribing" the poor. That's a very convenient way to ignore the wishes of 16million people, and a typical argument from the mouthes of the Thai neoliberals and royalists who make up the PAD.

Thai Rak Thai party is a capitalist party which after the 97 economic crisis saw the need to create social peace through populist policies. The PAD wish for power to be returned mostly to the king, using orientalist justifications to the outside world and recycling the claim that the poor aren't yet ready for democracy. What should be done is create a genuine workers party, but the PAD demonstrators are hoping for another coup d'etat which would be a huge setback-you can't possibly support a coalition of royalists, militarists, and neoliberals who wish to prevent the poor majority from holding any political influence at all?

[Dimentio]

The protests ARE made up of the urban middle class who have contempt for the rural poor who elected the current government, and are also the class behind the coup d'etat against Thaksin a few years back.

Clearly Thaksin et al are opportunists and definately not socialists, but we should oppose the protestors who are trying to undermine a government which at least gives some concessions to the poor. It moves the political spectrum left; look at Venezuela, the bourgeois opposition party now identifies as Social Democrat because they know their old platform dooms them even more. I'm not a reformist, but I do believe that once there are some gains it makes it easier to make more demands, and makes socialism look more realistic; and the Thai elite can't be allowed to set back any gains, no matter how superficial, won by the poor.

I prefer populists before the urban middle class any-day. If the Thai government manages to provide the people with at least roads and public education, its probably a huge progressive step.

[scarletghoul]

If the King has anything left in him he should intervene, like he done in 1992. That was awesome. While a monarch (or any similar supreme power position) exists, he should be there to ensure stability in situations like this. This isn't as bad as in 1992, but it is still very significant.

[Drace]

A world revolution!

[kollontai]

I hope you aren't saying universal healthcare and village level Keynesianism is equivalent to "bribing" the poor. That's a very convenient way to ignore the wishes of 16million people, and a typical argument from the mouthes of the Thai neoliberals and royalists who make up the PAD.

Thai Rak Thai party is a capitalist party which after the 97 economic crisis saw the need to create social peace through populist policies. The PAD wish for power to be returned mostly to the king, using orientalist justifications to the outside world and recycling the claim that the poor aren't yet ready for democracy. What should be done is create a genuine workers party, but the PAD demonstrators are hoping for another coup d'etat which would be a huge setback-you can't possibly support a coalition of royalists, militarists, and neoliberals who wish to prevent the poor majority from holding any political influence at all?




Though I cannot support the PAD, I have far more contempt for a government that lets its convicted ex-PM, who will be arrested for corruption if he ever sets foot on his native soil again, run the country from afar through the appointed PM, his brother-in-law. That is not democracy.

And I in no way said that the positive reforms Thaksin was able to make were bribes. The bribes I was speaking of are literal, widespread, cash-for-vote bribes. And this is neither populism nor Keynesian economics. Telling village leaders that their areas will not benefit unless they vote for the TRT or the PPP is extortion, especially when the "benefit" is a loan that is likely to fail.

The only reason the King is not in power is because he doesn't really want it and has never really had it, so the fact that the PAD is a royalist party is meaningless. Everyone defers to the King if he chooses to make a decision. The media labels the PAD as monarchists only because they accuse Thaksin and the TRT/PPP of being disloyal to the King (which the TRT/PPP takes every opportunity to disprove), in an attempt to appeal to the same peasants the government pays to come into Bangkok to start fights with the PAD protesters. The anti-PAD people throw bombs, PAD uses civil disobedience.

The leaders of both parties are made up of "royalists, militarists, and neoliberals," but members of the PAD do not just include the urban upper-middle class no matter what the BBC says; it's a diverse group made up of the vast majority of all university students, urban workers, middle & upper class Thais and southern Thais (who are just as poor as those in the northern area, but money bribes are not enough when your government refuses to protect you from what is basically a civil war).

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Posted this in another thread:

This is a good example of why we don't just support any protest or uprising. You have to look at the class nature of everything.

In this case, a bunch of privileged members of the bourgeoisie and especially the petit-bourgeoisie want to eliminate any pretenses of democracy that exist in Thailand. They're angry that the toiling majority in the rural area has selected two candidates in a row which they oppose (along with others from the ruling social-democratic People's Power Party), and so they want to replace voting with a system in which middle class "specialists" and "social groups" select politicians.

They are rightists.

Sondhi Limthongkul, who is a rich owner of several media outlets and leader of the People's Alliance for Democracy (the group that started this) says "Representative democracy is not suitable for Thailand."

They dress up in yellow clothes and claim to be "defending the honor of the king" against "traitors" like the PPP.

This may look like a mass outpouring, but the fact is that the current President still has majority support in the country.

* * *

PAD's support lies mostly in more privileged sections of the petty-bourgeoisie, the officer caste of the military, some bureaucrats in the state, and the monarch.

[kollontai]

My long response to all issues was posted in the other thread. But to respond directly, with Thaksin, his family and buddies, there is no democracy in Thailand today. PAD aside, Thaksin's puppet government must be overthrown. I do not feel the rural northerners are being "tricked;" the Thai educational system may not be the best, but these are not dumb folks. What they do know is that Thaksin's entrenched system of bribery is the only help they're likely to have from the government. (**exception for 30 baht healthcare) If the bribes aren't enough, though over 60% of the population seems to think they are, they also put pressure on local leaders to have their districts vote TRT/PPP or the government will refuse to loan money for their Tambon projects. This is not a matter of the rural folks choosing a leader (HA like billionaire Thaksin?) who will truly speak for them, but a matter of practicality. I understand their choice.

As of September, the PAD changed the policy wherein professional or other groups would be responsible for appointing leaders to a system with 100% public elections. I still cannot trust their support of this, as they place so much blame on the electorate.

The "dress up in yellow clothes" thing is a little misleading. Since HM's anniversary in 2006, it is common for many Thais to wear their yellow shirt for the King (or light blue for the Queen, pink for the Princess, etc.) nearly every day, and nearly all wear the shirts on Mondays and Fridays. It is kind of a national uniform. The PAD members wear their yellow to show loyalty for the King, but it does not have its origins with the PAD and not everyone wearing their yellow shirt is showing support for the PAD. The Thai-red worn by the gov't supporters is much more political and does not have the same sort of precedent.