Baader-Meinhof Complex

[Sam_b]

EDIT: That is of course Baader-Meinhof, excuse the spelling!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=opq65hdMJHc
Couldn't find an English trailer...sorry!

Just saw this last night. Its an incredible, and I thought a pretty fair, film. I think it brings home how much better European, and in particular German cinema is right now compared to its American counterpart. Its also Germany's entry for the Oscars next year for best foreign film. I thought the direction and dialogue was superb, and a refreshing couter to a lot of the right-wing rubbish about the German student movement as well.

I recommend everyone to see it, regardless of your opinions on the RAF:)

[Vanguard1917]

Yeah, not a bad film at all.

A good review of it here:

The Baader Meinhof Complex: hippy terror (http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/5919/)
A new film captures the tragi-farcical fate of the radicals who rejected capitalism and the working class.

[Sankofa]

Is this on DVD yet? Anyway to watch it online? Looks like a great movie.

[Sam_b]

Nope, its just got released. We saw it in the cinema on Wednesday, well worth the ticket price.

[Sankofa]

Noooo! :( It'll be somewhere on the internet soon...I'll keep an eye open.

[Led Zeppelin]

I thought the direction and dialogue was superb, and a refreshing couter to a lot of the right-wing rubbish about the German student movement as well.

Baader: "We have to change the political relations in this country."

Meinhof: "How?"

Baader: "That's a bourgeois question."

That part made me laugh. But it was a good movie altogether.

[KurtFF8]

I want to see this really bad. I saw a BBC documentary (it's older) on the RAF recently and then found out about this film. I think it will be interesting.

[Dóchas]

man i really want to see this, if its availible on the internet let us know it looks really good

[UndergroundConnexion]

great great movie just saw it in the cinema.

[Mindtoaster]

They never show these movies in the US :(

I'll be checking Pirate Bay for it every now and then

[Comrade B]

have to remember this, my mother is a German language teacher (also a communist) and is obsessed with the whole radical communist movement in Germany, she has seen practically every movie relating to these organizations


They never show these movies in the US http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies/sad.gif
My town has one movie theater. It is run by republican Mormons.
Among the movies not shown are
Superbad
Motorcycle Diaries
Fahrenheit 911
Religulous

And many more!!!!

all far too radical (or alcohol including) for our innocent Americans. We prefer to play movies like the Passion of Christ for a decade.

[bellyscratch]

have to remember this, my mother is a German language teacher (also a communist) and is obsessed with the whole radical communist movement in Germany, she has seen practically every movie relating to these organizations


My town has one movie theater. It is run by republican Mormons.
Among the movies not shown are
Superbad
Motorcycle Diaries
Fahrenheit 911
Religulous

And many more!!!!

all far too radical (or alcohol including) for our innocent Americans. We prefer to play movies like the Passion of Christ for a decade.

:( Too bad. I don't know how I'd cope in a place like that.

[Pirate Utopian]

Superbad
:blink: no way! What's the problem with that movie?

[Comrade B]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies2/blink.gif no way! What's the problem with that movie?
not completely sure about this one, but being that the person owning the theater is Mormon, I can make a stab at it being that it had too much about alcohol in it


http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies/sad.gif Too bad. I don't know how I'd cope in a place like that.
alcohol and weed

[Sam_b]

no way! What's the problem with that movie?

It sucked ;)

[Random Precision]

Spelling fixed. I'm looking forward to seeing this.

[Mindtoaster]

have to remember this, my mother is a German language teacher (also a communist) and is obsessed with the whole radical communist movement in Germany, she has seen practically every movie relating to these organizations


My town has one movie theater. It is run by republican Mormons.
Among the movies not shown are
Superbad
Motorcycle Diaries
Fahrenheit 911
Religulous

And many more!!!!

all far too radical (or alcohol including) for our innocent Americans. We prefer to play movies like the Passion of Christ for a decade.

Religulous didn't even play in the state of Louisiana, not sure about Motor Cycle Diaries.

... And yeah, Passion of the Christ was playing at the theater here for literally over a fucking year

[bcbm]

http://www.surfthechannel.com/episode/1621/143474.html

All in German though.

[Sankofa]

I'm tempted to watch it all in German and just try and understand from the context of what's going on...but maybe that will ruin a second viewing in English for me. :(

[Honggweilo]

:blink: no way! What's the problem with that movie?
It played 2 different "The Coup" songs :lol:

oh and the penis drawings might tip it off..

[Sasha]

They never show these movies in the US :(


they are going to enter it for the int. oscars so (if it wins) it wil probely will make it to the "un-american" parts of america.

[KurtFF8]

they are going to enter it for the int. oscars so (if it wins) it wil probely will make it to the "un-american" parts of america.

That means that there will be 2 films in the Oscars this year about revolutionary communists (The Che film and this one).

[Pirate Utopian]

It played 2 different "The Coup" songs :lol:

oh and the penis drawings might tip it off..
The penis drawings were one of the best bits. :laugh:

[Sankofa]

That means that there will be 2 films in the Oscars this year about revolutionary communists (The Che film and this one).

Wait...there's a new Che film coming out?

[Led Zeppelin]

What penis drawings are you talking about?

[Pirate Utopian]

From Superbad.

[Led Zeppelin]

Oh, right, I thought you were talking about Baader-Meinhof Complex.

[Pirate Utopian]

:lol: that would be something.

[Sankofa]

Did anyone see the "Tiananmen Square" penis? That one was my favorite :lol:

[Pirate Utopian]

Mine was when he was drawing dicks on his schoolbooks.

[KurtFF8]

Wait...there's a new Che film coming out?

Indeed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_%28film%29)

[Comrade B]

Indeed (http://www.anonym.to/?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_%28film%29)
I have to see this some how...

[KurtFF8]

Well it's coming out in January.

[Sankofa]

Nice...is it actually going to be released in theatres nation wide in the US? I suppose it doesn't matter if it did, my state has been known to censor things it deems inappropriate or goes against good christian morals.

Oh, and I looked up the film on the IMDb and the forum is a bunch of people spouting the normal anti-communist lies about Che; it's actually the same thing in the Motorcycle Diaries forum also.

[Edelweiss]

I haven't seen the film myself yet, but it should be noted that this is a highly commercial film, generally rejected by the German radical Left, especially by those still in solidarity with the former RAF. The film is based on a book by bourgeois author and former "der Spiegel" editor Stefan Aust, who is likewise being rejected by the radical German left.

Actually there has been an attack on Stefan Aust's mansion with paint bombs and stones, on the day of the film release by an unknown militant, left-wing group to protest against Aust and the film.

The attackers have published a letter, where they say that the film is "a continuation of the lies of Stefan Aust".

German speakers can read the letter in full at http://www.jungewelt.de/2008/09-30/045.php

[Angry Young Man]

I'm hopefully off to see this on Friday and I want assurance that it's not a steaming heap of right-wing poo.

Or, like the Edukators, a (rare) steaming pile of left-wing poo.

[Vanguard1917]

Thread on it: http://www.revleft.com/vb/baader-meinhof-complex-t95541/index.html

[x359594]

Der Baader-Meinhoff Komplex played once in Los Angeles at the Cinematheque. I missed the screening, but a friend sent me this from the pages of Cahiers du Cinema:

From the CdC with Werner Schroeter interview on his new film.

One of the subjects of the film is impossible heroism, weak heroism.

Like all of us. Every day we see catastrophes, we see clearly that we let people die in the street; rightfully we get excited morally, logically, intellectually, and we don’t change anything. And if we try to make an effort, in the end it will probably be false. Like what’s happening in Germany, the huge criticism, very brutal, that has been made of the Red Army Faction (RAF). It’s a total banality. Obviously there were huge mistakes made. However, we can’t say that there was only criminal energy motivating them. There was also hope, but with a very limited capacity of being, of changing reality into another possibility. Trying to change a little bit, to move something around, is not banal. So, The Baader Meinhof Complex, which is a melodramatic film, kitsch, a fourth zone telenovela, that’s sad…

It's also is completely reactionary.

Yes, because instead of making a clearer vision and giving a little luminosity, it makes for a dull vision that is veiled. It’s stupid.

[Mujer Libre]

Merged.

[communard resolution]

The film is based on a book by bourgeois author and former "der Spiegel" editor Stefan Aust, who is likewise being rejected by the radical German left.

I attended his Q&A prior to the UK premiere of the movie. I didn't find him to be particularly convincing. My impression was that when he wrote that book back in the 80s, he just wanted to make some money by causing light controversy in regards to the Baader-Meinhof suicides/murders. Now that the novelty has worn off, he just reverted to the official version of the events - "didn't really mean it, kids".

He bragged about his extensive research on the subject. According to him, "much of the research was actually conducted by the police themselves", which in his mind was a good thing. When a member of the audience doubted the credibility of info given by the police, he didn't understand the question - or pretended not to.


Actually there has been an attack on Stefan Aust's mansion with paint bombs and stones, on the day of the film release by an unknown militant, left-wing group to protest against Aust and the film. Yes, apparently they managed to throw a brick in his kid daughter's bedroom. How idiotic. And what were they trying to achieve anyway? The RAF is dead.

The film as such was a cross between a Hollywood styled action movie, Bonnie & Clyde, and a sex n drugs n rock roll teen flick. The Gudrun Ensslin character was more like Nancy Spungen or Courtney Love striking a rebel pose rather than the young leftist intellectual that the real Ensslin was. Still, it offered a good account of police brutality during the 1968 events, and overall it provided some basic history of events for the uninitiated. Fassbinder would have done better, of course.

[x359594]

...Fassbinder would have done better, of course.

If only...

[Christine]

So Baader-Meinhof Complex isn't ANYWHERE online?


There was a link posted a while ago that no longer works. I don't mind paying, but Blockbuster doesn't have it either.


Thanks ...

[Mälli]

I loved the movie! Truly inspiring, exiting and brings lots of emotions.

[Bilan]

I just went and saw this film last night and have to say it was incredible. For those who haven't seen it, it's about RAF in Germany in the 60's and 70's and is an absolutely incredible film.
Anyone else seen it? Thoughts?

http://thumbs.filmstarts.de/wallpaper/DerBaaderMeinhofKomplex_scene_09.jpg

[Pirate Utopian]

I absolutely loved it.
The head of the police was the same guy that played Hitler fantastically in Der Untergang, although he wasnt that good in this movie.

[Sam_b]

Aye, I saw it at the end of last year. Thought it was really good and was surprised at how balanced I thought the whole thing is. From a cinematographic perspective I thought the camerawork was really good and the male/female relationship scenes which developed to be real interesting.

I think this is one of the films that demonstrates to me the strength of contemporary German film at the moment.

There's an old thread about it here: http://www.revleft.com/vb/baader-meinhof-complex-t95541/index.html?t=95541&highlight=Baader

[Dóchas]

i have the book of the movie with pictures of the real RAF some of them are pretty awsome. i cant wait to start the book and see the movie they both look great!!

[BobKKKindle$]

It would have been nice to have a bit more detail on the politics of the RAF and how they saw themselves fitting into the APO. One idea that was implied at several points in the film but was never really expressed clearly was that the RAF recognized that the bureaucracy of the FRG contained many individuals who had also been involved with the Nazi regime as bureaucrats but had been able to slip through the net of denazification after the war, or were admitted because the FRG needed bureaucrats in order to function, and wouldn't have been able to man its institutions without drawing on those who had identified with the Nazis. That was the basis for their accussation that the FRG was actually a fascist state. Other than that, it was a good film. I really did like the scene that's shown in the picture Bilan posted, though, when they were all chanting "Ho, Ho, Ho Chi Minh", that made me feel very proud, in a weird kind of way.

Incidentally, Bilan, surely all of those people weren't real leftists, because they were supporting a national liberation movement?

[Nakidana]

Wow, sounds good. I saw a poster for the movie but thought at the time it would be a shitty, biased movie.

Reading this I've changed my mind and will give it a watch. :)

[carrandrewj]

I thought it was an excellent film.

The film itself stuck closely to the book (Der Baader Meinhof Komplex) written by Stefan Aust. For anyone who's interested, I found baader-meinhof.com a very interesting website when researching the RAF. It's worth a look for anyone who's seen the film and gives a bit more insight into the group.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Me mam wanted to see this and I said I thought it would be some stupid pro-state pro-capitalist propoganda film. I am a bit annoyed I didn't go to see it now.

[brigadista]

any online links?

[Sam_b]

It would have been nice to have a bit more detail on the politics of the RAF and how they saw themselves fitting into the APO. One idea that was implied at several points in the film but was never really expressed clearly was that the RAF recognized that the bureaucracy of the FRG contained many individuals who had also been involved with the Nazi regime as bureaucrats but had been able to slip through the net of denazification after the war, or were admitted because the FRG needed bureaucrats in order to function, and wouldn't have been able to man its institutions without drawing on those who had identified with the Nazis.

Bob, were you really expecting to get deeper levels of analysis in a feature film which was the German entry to the Academy Awards' best international film?

[BOZG]

any online links?

It's available as a torrent but without any subtitles.

I watched it a few days ago and thought it was pretty good. But like Bobkindles, I think it could have dealt with the background politics a lot more. If you didn't know anything about the RAF beforehand, I'd say it's quite confusing.

[Bilan]

Incidentally, Bilan, surely all of those people weren't real leftists, because they were supporting a national liberation movement?

People can make mistakes, and others can just be plain wrong. The point is to learn from it.

[Invariance]

It's available as a torrent but without any subtitles This (http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4820434/Der_Baader_Meinhof_Komplex_-_AVI_-_%28Eng_Subs%29_-_Godcanjudgeme) has English subtitles.

[brigadista]

is it streamed anywhere ? i cant download at the moment

[Vanguard1917]

they were supporting a national liberation movement

From afar. The film did a good job of showing the total sham of what the RAF tried to pass off as solidarity with national liberation movements. The middle class radicals insisted that the Palestinian anti-imperialist movement was also their own, but when it came to having to show some real solidarity on the ground, they decided to throw temper tantrums and spend their time nude sunbathing instead. That part of the film really summed up the essentially ridiculous nature of the group, its deep disdain for working class people and for attempts to build mass movements for social change.

As this (http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/5919/) review of the film points out, the key characteristic of the Baader-Meinhoff group was not just its rejection of capitalism, but its rejection of the working class as well. That was its defining feature. All its disasterous actions -- what we could call its terror tantrums -- stemmed from that deep flaw.

[Nakidana]

The middle class radicals insisted that the Palestinian anti-imperialist movement was also their own, but when it came to having to show some real solidarity on the ground, they decided to throw temper tantrums and spend their time nude sunbathing instead. That part of the film really summed up the essentially ridiculous nature of the group, its deep disdain for working class people and for attempts to build mass movements for social change.

I was actually wondering about that whole scene. Did it really happen or was it just a brainchild of the director?

[bcbm]

I was actually wondering about that whole scene. Did it really happen or was it just a brainchild of the director?

It really happened.

[Nakidana]

K, got to say I was pretty disgusted when they suddenly started wasting ammo for "fun" while the Palestinians had a real fucking war on their hands.

[KurtFF8]

It was an excellent film and also pointed out some of the significant problems with the RAF (e.g. their experiences with the PFLP).

I suggest it to any leftist who is interested in groups like that of the late 60s/70s era.

[kurtulush]

http://i40.tinypic.com/o5ckle.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/fof75z.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/29arvpi.jpg

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/7176/bm6.jpg

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/3775/20677161.jpg

Directed by : Uli Edel
Produced by : Bernd Eichinger
Written by : Bernd Eichinger, Uli Edel
Based on the book by : Stefan Aust
Starring :
Moritz Bleibtreu
Martina Gedeck
Johanna Wokalek
Nadja Uhl
Simon Licht
Alexandra Maria Lara
Bruno Ganz
Distributed by : Constantin Film
Release date(s) : Germany: September 25, 2008, UK: November 15, 2008
Running time : 150 min.
Country : Germany
Language : German

Konusu : Martina Gedeck (Ulrike Meinhof) , Moritz Bleibtreu (Andreas Baader) , Johanna Wokalek (Gudrun Ensslin) , Bruno Ganz (Horst Herold) , Jan Josef Liefers (Peter Homann) Alman gerilla grubu RAF'i (Kizil Ordu Fraksiyonu) inceleyen Der Baader-Meinhof Komplex, 60'larin sonu ve 70'lerin baslarinda hüküm süren, bombalama, adam kaçirma ve hirsizlik gibi birçok olayin içine karisan Alman gerilla grubuna sert bir bakis atiyor.
Stefan Aust'un çok satan romanindan sinemaya uyarlanan yapim, Moritz Bleibtreu'nun da basarili oyunculuguyla konusuluyor.

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Baader_Meinhof_Komplex)
IMDB (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0765432/)


Der Baader Meinhof Komplex ( Türkçe Altyazili ) Online (http://video.yahoo.com/watch/5273549/13910936)
Der Baader Meinhof Komplex ( Türkçe Altyazili ) Download (http://files.filefront.com/Der+Baader+Meinhof+Komplexavi/;13879260;/fileinfo.html)

[Pawn Power]

So I saw this film last night and I gotta to say, I am not terribly impressed. There is very little extrapolation of the actual politics of RAF. Yes, some is said through Meinhof's writings and assumed through news clips however, it is never really extrapolated upon. The movie was visually appealing- the cinematography and all the hot actors in RAF. Though they were all pretty their characters weren't very developed (save Baader, Meinhof, and Ensslin).

Though I don't know too much about the internal dynamics of RAF, and I don't know how the director would either since the major leaders in the organization killed themselves, the film portrays them as somewhat unorganized and spur of the moment. With the actions they did it all would have needed much more organization and planing. The title itself makes them seem 'insane.' While some of them might have been, but I wouldn't tag the entire group as unstable. There were very real forces in play spurring them to act- state terror, murder, brutality, etc.

[Pawn Power]

From afar. The film did a good job of showing the total sham of what the RAF tried to pass off as solidarity with national liberation movements. The middle class radicals insisted that the Palestinian anti-imperialist movement was also their own, but when it came to having to show some real solidarity on the ground, they decided to throw temper tantrums and spend their time nude sunbathing instead. That part of the film really summed up the essentially ridiculous nature of the group, its deep disdain for working class people and for attempts to build mass movements for social change.


I somewhat disagree with this. I don't think their time in Jordan "summed up the essentially ridiculous nature of the group." Indeed, it deem seem adventurous however, that was not what made there acts unproductive. Their acts in themselves where unproductive. Not 'respecting' "working class people" is another point. The Palestinian radicals were obviously not comfortable with RAF's sexual politics. That doesn't mean they should change them just to 'get along.'

Just because your a prude doesn't mean the rest of us have to conform to your conservative morals.

[rednordman]

I somewhat disagree with this. I don't think their time in Jordan "summed up the essentially ridiculous nature of the group." Indeed, it deem seem adventurous however, that was not what made there acts unproductive. Their acts in themselves where unproductive. Not 'respecting' "working class people" is another point. The Palestinian radicals were obviously not comfortable with RAF's sexual politics. That doesn't mean they should change them just to 'get along.'

Just because your a prude doesn't mean the rest of us have to conform to your conservative morals. I didnt think this is what Vangard1917 was implying though. It has nothing to do with sexual politics at all, what he was saying was that instead of show true solidarity with the palestinian radicals, the moment they got brought down to earth and realised that actual hardwork was involved, they all spat their dummies out and ended up treating the visit like a summer holiday instead of actually learning anything. Whether this is a 'factual' portrayal is another question, but that is how it came across to me when I saw the film.

Infact, in that sense, it was a rather bad film (imo) as it seemed to completely miss out the actual solid reasons for the terrorist activities. Infact, i thought it actually 'bottled out' of this, mabey out of pressure from the victims families and not wanting to seem disrespectfull too them, or to legitimise the crimes of the RAF. In a longish movie it still did not go deep enough to actually portray them for more than how the media loves to portray all young leftists: Naive, out of touch with reality, idealists. Except gone way to far.

[Bilan]

So I saw this film last night and I gotta to say, I am not terribly impressed. There is very little extrapolation of the actual politics of RAF. Yes, some is said through Meinhof's writings and assumed through news clips however, it is never really extrapolated upon. The movie was visually appealing- the cinematography and all the hot actors in RAF. Though they were all pretty their characters weren't very developed (save Baader, Meinhof, and Ensslin).

Though I don't know too much about the internal dynamics of RAF, and I don't know how the director would either since the major leaders in the organization killed themselves, the film portrays them as somewhat unorganized and spur of the moment. With the actions they did it all would have needed much more organization and planing. The title itself makes them seem 'insane.' While some of them might have been, but I wouldn't tag the entire group as unstable. There were very real forces in play spurring them to act- state terror, murder, brutality, etc.

I don't understand how you came to that to conclusion. I mean, the lack of development of the characters can be attributed to the fact that it's main focus was on Baader and Meinhof, hence Der Baader-Meinhof Komplex and their involvement in the RAF.

I don't think it portrayed them as 'insane' but instead portrayed them as wild.

[Pawn Power]

I don't understand how you came to that to conclusion. I mean, the lack of development of the characters can be attributed to the fact that it's main focus was on Baader and Meinhof, hence Der Baader-Meinhof Komplex and their involvement in the RAF.

I don't think it portrayed them as 'insane' but instead portrayed them as wild.

Yeah, it would have been tough to develop the other characters, maybe it would have needed 3 hours, however, I found it difficult to connect to the other RAF members who were being picked off by the cops and other members who appeared important (the other guy in prison). I think they could have done a better job in this regard. But this is a matter of taste obviously.

As for how they are portrayed, I don't think I am alone in this. The other people I watched the film with also thought it portrayed some of them as nutty (particularly Baader). Though there could be a semantic difference in how we are defining 'wild' and 'insane.' I think that speeding recklessly while fire handguns out your window for no apparent reason is 'wild.' Doing this while also 'underground' from the cops is somewhat 'deranged.'

[Sarah Palin]

Ah I want to see this so badly. Does anyone have a link to it with english subtitles? Or have a date when it's on dvd?

[Trystan]

It's a great movie. The stupidity and ignorance of the characters was portrayed perfectly.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Ah I want to see this so badly. Does anyone have a link to it with english subtitles? Or have a date when it's on dvd?

You can get the region 2 version from Amazon UK (http://amazon.co.uk) now.

[Klute77]

I saw this movie when it came out last year and enjoyed it very much and felt it did a good job of telling the story of the RAF. Two other films I'd like to recommend which were more directly inspired by RAF and its aftermath. One is Germany in Autumn made by a collective of German filmmakers as a reponse to the fallout of the events of that time and also The Third Generation by R. W. Fassbinder is a satire based on the same events. Both make an interesting counter point to the recent Baader Meinhof Complex film.

[Guerrilla22]

I really want to see this movie, it's definitely an interesting topic. Independent and foreign films are so much better than hollywood movies.

[Patchd]

Was a brilliant film! Enjoyed every bit of it, despite the differing politics. :D

Also, the sexual liberalism was pretty awesome. :laugh:

[Honggweilo]

I don't think it portrayed them as 'insane' but instead portrayed them as wild.
They certainly portrayed Andreas Baader as a male chauvinist biggoted "fuk yerrr revulutiun!" hick (randomly shooting at traffic signs, not caring about safety precautions making explotions but wanting "MOAR EXPLOSION!", proving his masculinity by emptying a AK-47 mag while wasting the PFLP's ammo, calling itallians "dirty spagetthi eaters" and palestinians "camelfuckers") :rolleyes:

Speaking about male chauvinism... Johanna Wokalek <3 *droooool* (also quoting mao, lol, i came)

Also cool to see Stipe Erceg from the Edukators playing a small part in a firefight :)

[Guerrilla22]

If anyone can find a link that works so I can download this movie it would be greatly appreciated.

[MarxSchmarx]

If anyone can find a link that works so I can download this movie it would be greatly appreciated.

Just to make sure we are all on the same page. Per the RevLeft FAQ forum rules state:


You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by this bulletin board.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/faq.php?s=&do=search&q=copyright&match=all&titlesonly=0

[Stranger Than Paradise]

I saw this movie when it came out last year and enjoyed it very much and felt it did a good job of telling the story of the RAF. Two other films I'd like to recommend which were more directly inspired by RAF and its aftermath. One is Germany in Autumn made by a collective of German filmmakers as a reponse to the fallout of the events of that time and also The Third Generation by R. W. Fassbinder is a satire based on the same events. Both make an interesting counter point to the recent Baader Meinhof Complex film.

Totally agree. Both of those films from Fassbinder are brilliant depictions of the RAF.

[Rusty Shackleford]

ok, i loved the film but i dont kow anything about the RAF.

could anyone give me a list of any docs or films regarding RAF? ive seen the weather underground and apparently theres guys are just a german form of it.

[Guerrilla22]

Just to make sure we are all on the same page. Per the RevLeft FAQ forum rules state:



http://www.revleft.com/vb/faq.php?s=&do=search&q=copyright&match=all&titlesonly=0

Ok then someone pm me a link to a download of this movie (if u can find one with english subtitles) if know of one, whateva.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Ok then someone pm me a link to a download of this movie (if u can find one with english subtitles) if know of one, whateva.
Pm'd

avi format, english subs (srt files, so if you dont want them, then move them to a separate folder to turn them off)

if anyone else needs the link then pm me.

[brigadista]

i managed to finally see it finally last weekend - it was ok - but - i didnt think they got the context really - i mean the post war germany context - but it was enjoyable and the Jordan sequence was ridiculous enough to be farce - you couldnt make it up!

[khad]

Sounds like a piece of shit film.

[PRC-UTE]

Sounds like a piece of shit film.

It does. Another bourgeois smear piece of propaganda. The economist left will love it. Nothing's worse to certain types of lefties than actually doing something.

The RAF were people that lost their lives making a stand with the struggles of the oppressed and exploited across the world- from Ireland to Vietnam and Palestine. They may have not been perfect, but they walked the walk didn't they. The Palestinian PFLP seemed to have agreed with that view, as they carried out operations to rescue their RAF comrades.

[khad]

The RAF were people that lost their lives making a stand with the struggles of the oppressed and exploited across the world- from Ireland to Vietnam and Palestine. They may have not been perfect, but they walked the walk didn't they. The Palestinian PFLP seemed to have agreed with that view, as they carried out operations to rescue their RAF comrades.
Nothing irks me more than leftists shitting on other leftists in public in front of all the cappies. Whatever sectarian squabbles the left may have, all that shit should be internal, ie "in the family." When a dumb cappie makes a film like this, leftists ought to recognize the propaganda work that a film like this does in the wider public. This film only serves to further marginalize an already marginalized left, and whatever little sectarian points one could score are meaningless.

[JohannGE]

In the light of the review posted above (http://amte.wordpress.com/2009/09/01...it-of-the-raf/) which I pretty much agree with, can anyone suggest a more reliable source on the RAF, film or book?

[Искра]

Sounds like a piece of shit film.
Watched.
It's a piece of shit...

[bcbm]

In the light of the review posted above (http://amte.wordpress.com/2009/09/01...it-of-the-raf/) which I pretty much agree with, can anyone suggest a more reliable source on the RAF, film or book?

Televisionaries (http://www.amazon.com/Televisionaries-Army-Faction-Story-1963-1993/dp/1873176473) isn't bad.

[Armand Iskra]

I like the movie, and it reminds of the former tagalog movie entitled "Alex Boncayao Brigade" as well as the japanese "United Red Army."

Anyway, it shows how Ulrike Meinhof and her group became famous, similar to what the former ABB did in Manila.

[communard resolution]

I like the movie, and it reminds of the former tagalog movie entitled "Alex Boncayao Brigade" as well as the japanese "United Red Army."


Could you please give me more information about the Japanese movie? I have been interested in the Japanese Red Army for a while, but I am finding it very hard to come by any material on them.

[bcbm]

Could you please give me more information about the Japanese movie? I have been interested in the Japanese Red Army for a while, but I am finding it very hard to come by any material on them.

you aren't missing much

[Pogue]

I'll watch this if I can find it anywhere, looks good, another film I never got round to watching.

[Tablo]

The movie had some great acting and action, but it was gross bourgeois propaganda. I thoroughly enjoyed the first half of the movie, but it went downhill as far as accuracy. It is highly contested whether the RAF members committed suicide. Also, if you guys didn't know, this film received some funding from the German government. :(

Sorry for this being my first post and for it being on an old thread. I couldn't contain myself after watching such a horrible film.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

It is so hard to watch this film without knowing how much of this is simply propoganda. I have only watched the first hour and a half, don't know if i'll get round to finishing it.

[YadaRanger]

Has anyone seen this movie? Did they like it??

I loved it!

if you google the torrent it can be found easy with subtitles!!!

[Bilan]

We've got some threads on it already. Have a search through here and have a read. :)

[brigadista]

its on sky movies premier all this week in the uk

[Bright Banana Beard]

DBMK is a really shitty movie. I don't understand why everyone is hyped about it.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

It is a shitty film in my opinion. It was part funded by the German government so that tells you all you need to know about the historical and factual merit of this film.

[MarxSchmarx]

Threads merged.

[The Red Next Door]

Please give me a link to a site that wouldn't give me a virus, because this not my computer i am using.

[Rusty Shackleford]

if anyone has netflix, its available on there for instant watch

[Wolf Larson]

I was at a friends house last night and she has satellite TV and the Baarder Meinhof Complex [RAF] film was on. If you've seen the film do you think they did a good job of portraying Ulrike & Andreas or was the film full of perversions and simplifications in your opinion?

[Tablo]

I saw it on youtube. It was a pretty shitty film. Not that I think the RAF were great or anything. They had their hearts in the right place, but should have organized with the workers instead of blowing things up and killing people.

[Wolf Larson]

I saw it on youtube. It was a pretty shitty film. Not that I think the RAF were great or anything. They had their hearts in the right place, but should have organized with the workers instead of blowing things up and killing people.
Propaganda of the deed will NEVER work unless the people are on your side- this is what I say. As far as the film goes I think it gave the impression that resistance is futile. It seems the film was made from a pro reformist stance but I also don't condone killing workers. I don't think that was their intention. It obviously wasn't the RAF's intention. Even so with today's monopolized media and homogenized Americana mind frame any form of violence will be repackaged and used against the revolutionary movement. The establishment has this so called war on terror mentality for a reason and most American workers have accepted it and capitalism hook line and sinker. THAT is what needs to change as violence will do nothing but strengthen capitalist propaganda. I think violence in today's political climate would be born of frustration or a sense of powerlessness and since the majority of workers wouldn't approve it should not be employed.

The people are against socialism- this is the problem. The only time violence will work is when the vast majority of the population is ready to dispose of the capitalist system. America is obviously far away from the point where violence would be acceptable, this is one reason I don't condone violence in America.

What peaceful means of direct action can actually win workers over to the socialist cause? I think solidarity can go a long way as can propaganda but you would think during this current capitalist crisis more people would be willing to listen to socialist ideas. This simply isn't happening though.


I think the RAF did have some immediate positive effects in Europe with some of their early activity seeing they had much support but in the long run went off track. How do you envision the revolution taking place? I don't see it happening for some time, just look at the current crisis. The lack of a viable socialist worker movement in America during this current crisis has told me too many workers here are all too happy to defend their capitalist masters. What's the main reason for this? Concessions [welfare,Medicare/Medicaid etc] the media or are we like the frog slowly boiling in hot water? In your opinion what is the no 1 reason so many workers are unwilling to join the class struggle?

[Buffalo Souljah]

The primary reason why so few workers "figure out" that they are being repressed is that the level of consciousness of the proletariat is so low. We (collectively) know little about the laws of physics and about social contract theory. These are things we weren't taught in school, or, if they were, we didn't pay attention to that particular lecture. Hence, the level of imputed consciousness (what exists out there for the proletariat to draw from--stories, fables, intrasubjective phenomena) is very meager. Very few "think outside the box". If we continue to, when the occasion arises, foster critical and creative thinking in the working class, when a person is made to see the contingency of the current system, then we will be in a better position to overthrow the existing regime. Only when workers KNOW what they are fighting against, will any meaningful struggle take place. The fact is, most workers simply are not aware of the condition of capitalist society, so they don't know what they're fighting against, or that they are fighting. For them, "life is shitty", and you just have to get used to it. Once you siphon this kind of thinking out of their minds, people will get upset a whole lot quicker! So, only in raising that level of mass consciousness (a stuggle the mainstream media is fighting against) can you hope to achieve any semblance of progress.

[Tablo]

Propaganda of the deed will NEVER work unless the people are on your side- this is what I say. As far as the film goes I think it gave the impression that resistance is futile. It seems the film was made from a pro reformist stance but I also don't condone killing workers. I don't think that was their intention. It obviously wasn't the RAF's intention. Even so with today's monopolized media and homogenized Americana mind frame any form of violence will be repackaged and used against the revolutionary movement. The establishment has this so called war on terror mentality for a reason and most American workers have accepted it and capitalism hook line and sinker. THAT is what needs to change as violence will do nothing but strengthen capitalist propaganda. I think violence in today's political climate would be born of frustration or a sense of powerlessness and since the majority of workers wouldn't approve it should not be employed.

The people are against socialism- this is the problem. The only time violence will work is when the vast majority of the population is ready to dispose of the capitalist system. America is obviously far away from the point where violence would be acceptable, this is one reason I don't condone violence in America.

What peaceful means of direct action can actually win workers over to the socialist cause? I think solidarity can go a long way as can propaganda but you would think during this current capitalist crisis more people would be willing to listen to socialist ideas. This simply isn't happening though.


I think the RAF did have some immediate positive effects in Europe with some of their early activity seeing they had much support but in the long run went off track. How do you envision the revolution taking place? I don't see it happening for some time, just look at the current crisis. The lack of a viable socialist worker movement in America during this current crisis has told me too many workers here are all too happy to defend their capitalist masters. What's the main reason for this? Concessions [welfare,Medicare/Medicaid etc] the media or are we like the frog slowly boiling in hot water? In your opinion what is the no 1 reason so many workers are unwilling to join the class struggle?
Did I ever say that propaganda of the deed is something I agree with? Did I even say I support the actions of the RAF? I did not so why are you complaining?

Revolution will not happen for a very very long time. At least not the final battle. The number 1 reason why people are so opposed to the class struggle is that they are lied to by the government and corporate media. They are pacified and made to feel this is the natural order of things.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

My major problem with the film was the way it presented the German police, and the state response in general. The main senior policeman in the film was a nice, liberal figure who talked about how you could only get rid of terrorism by getting rid of the social conditions that produce it. I'm sure there probably were some nice liberals in the German police force, but I don't think it's honest to just show them and ignore the extent to which the German state opted for blanket repression of everyone vaguely connected with the left. After all, they passed a law banning any radicals from being able to hold jobs in the public sector (http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/sub_document.cfm?document_id=898) - you would've thought that deserved at least a mention.

[Wolf Larson]

Did I ever say that propaganda of the deed is something I agree with? Did I even say I support the actions of the RAF? I did not so why are you complaining?

Revolution will not happen for a very very long time. At least not the final battle. The number 1 reason why people are so opposed to the class struggle is that they are lied to by the government and corporate media. They are pacified and made to feel this is the natural order of things.

Relax. I was thinking out loud I wasn't criticizing you :) I agree with you.

[Wolf Larson]

The primary reason why so few workers &quot;figure out&quot; that they are being repressed is that the level of consciousness of the proletariat is so low. We (collectively) know little about the laws of physics and about social contract theory. These are things we weren't taught in school, or, if they were, we didn't pay attention to that particular lecture. Hence, the level of imputed consciousness (what exists out there for the proletariat to draw from--stories, fables, intrasubjective phenomena) is very meager. Very few &quot;think outside the box&quot;. If we continue to, when the occasion arises, foster critical and creative thinking in the working class, when a person is made to see the contingency of the current system, then we will be in a better position to overthrow the existing regime. Only when workers KNOW what they are fighting against, will any meaningful struggle take place. The fact is, most workers simply are not aware of the condition of capitalist society, so they don't know what they're fighting against, or that they are fighting. For them, &quot;life is shitty&quot;, and you just have to get used to it. Once you siphon this kind of thinking out of their minds, people will get upset a whole lot quicker! So, only in raising that level of mass consciousness (a stuggle the mainstream media is fighting against) can you hope to achieve any semblance of progress.

Orwell: "If there was hope, it must lie in the Proles, because only there, in those swarming disregarded masses, eighty-five per cent of the population... could the force to destroy the Party ever be generated. ....the Proles, if only they could somehow become conscious of their own strength, would have no need to conspire. They needed only to rise up and shake themselves like a horse shaking off flies. If they chose they could blow the Party to pieces tomorrow morning-
Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after they have rebelled they cannot become conscious." I don't necessarily see my fellow working class as Orwellian Proles. Only most Americans :)

[Herobane]

I saw it on youtube. It was a pretty shitty film. Not that I think the RAF were great or anything. They had their hearts in the right place, but should have organized with the workers instead of blowing things up and killing people.

You're an anarcho-Communist and you oppose blowing things up? wtf?

[Tablo]

You're an anarcho-Communist and you oppose blowing things up? wtf?
Why the fuck would I want people destroying shit? I want workers to take control of the means of production, not blow it up.

[Ravachol]

You're an anarcho-Communist and you oppose blowing things up? wtf?

And this is remarkable because? If anything, individualist terrorism commonly associated with Anarchism belongs to the domain of Galleanist Insurrectionary Anarchism, not mass-oriented Anarcho-Communism.
That being said, neither do appeals for liberal passivism have anything to do with Anarchism.

[Communist Pear]

I was at a friends house last night and she has satellite TV and the Baarder Meinhof Complex [RAF] film was on. If you've seen the film do you think they did a good job of portraying Ulrike & Andreas or was the film full of perversions and simplifications in your opinion?
I watched it. It probably simplified and altered a lot of things, but it's not meant to be a documentary anyway. I don't think it makes the RAF look any worse/misguided than they were in reality, but it did make the police look a lot nicer than they really were.

[griffjam]

It is we who built these palaces and cities, here in Spain and America and everywhere. We, the workers. We can build others to take their place. And better ones. We are not in the least afraid of ruins. :thumbup1:

[Little Bobby Hutton]

Baader was a sexist, semi racist drug abusing arsehole and he is portrayed rightly in this film, though they left out his speech impedement.
The only true revolutionary was Gudrun Ensslin who sadly let herself be controlled by baader.
Baader Meinhoff, in love with terror on youtube in seven parts may be a good if biased film on the Urban Guerrilla Movement.

[Wolf Larson]

And this is remarkable because? If anything, individualist terrorism commonly associated with Anarchism belongs to the domain of Galleanist Insurrectionary Anarchism, not mass-oriented Anarcho-Communism.
That being said, neither do appeals for liberal passivism have anything to do with Anarchism.

Bakunin and Kropotkin= two different schools. I'm more of the opinion we need a shift in consciousness away from the SELF greed driven me me me plastic/ materialistic egoist patriotic Americana mind frame. This may sound cheesy, I'm aware, but we all need to unite and focus on a mass propaganda campaign online, within the community, workplace and even schools. Our resolve and unity during this crisis has been pathetic. University students have always been open minded and educated enough to agree with our goals but the average American isn't interested. It's painfully obvious when I spend time outside of Oakland and or online in generic political forums or in suburban communities, or at work with other working class males in construction. The TV and basic capitalist state education has an unbreakable hold. Everything is either co opted or marginalized by the capitalist propaganda machine. The punk movement, socialist ideals, a sense of community, our altruistic tendencies...everything has been overrun by McWorld. No one gives a shit. It's that simple. Those that do are misinformed to the point of Neo-McCarthyism. I'm not feeling optimistic these days. I've spent much time spreading propaganda and it has almost ZERO effect. Reactionaries rule the day and it's partly our fault. We've dropped the ball during this economic crisis. The loudest voice? Glen Beck.

[Ravachol]

Bakunin and Kropotkin= two different schools.


Yes, they differ in that Bakunin favoured Collectivist Anarchism whilst Kropotkin favoured a more idealist Anarcho Communism, both were mass-oriented Anarchists however.



I'm more of the opinion we need a shift in consciousness away from the SELF greed driven me me me plastic/ materialistic egoist patriotic Americana mind frame.


What's wrong with materialism? I might hope any decent socialist is a full-blown materialist. There is no place for spiritualist nonsense in the discourse of socialism. In private, sure, but socialism of whatever variety is first and foremost a materialist matter.




This may sound cheesy, I'm aware, but we all need to unite and focus on a mass propaganda campaign online, within the community, workplace and even schools. Our resolve and unity during this crisis has been pathetic. University students have always been open minded and educated enough to agree with our goals but the average American isn't interested.


Mass-agitation, propaganda and the accumulation of revolutionaries isn't going to be enough to bring about the revolution. In fact, the material conditions will have to be right for propaganda to have any effect at all. Also, constructing counter-power and executing direct action in the workplace is of far greater importance than leafleting and walking demos.



It's painfully obvious when I spend time outside of Oakland and or online in generic political forums or in suburban communities, or at work with other working class males in construction. The TV and basic capitalist state education has an unbreakable hold.


Because they have a near-monopoly on media in everyday life. There is virtually no pro-revolutionary presence in the everyday life of the average worker. This is not changed by a leaflet, not by a hunderded leaflets, not by a thousand leaflets. This is changed by the construction of proletarian counter-power and the immersion of the revolutionary movement in the struggles of the workplace and the social factory.



The loudest voice? Glen Beck.

Who cares about the loudest voice in the bourgoisie media? Our fault is not that we leaflet to little our don't shout hard enough at demos. Our fault is the absence of actual revolutionary praticipation in workplace struggles and dropping the fight for working class autonomy in favor of all kinds of partial struggles without the bigger picture.

[Wolf Larson]

Ravachol- Bakunin believed in violence Kropotkin did not. No socialism is not about materialism- not in the capitalist sense and I'm not talking about dialectical materialism I'm talking about McWorld materialism. Environmentally we cannot create US style capitalist abundance for the entire world. You don't understand contemporary socialism and to call me a lifstylist is absurd. Fuck you for that. Also I didn't say we should pass out leaflets. Fuck you for that also. And fuck you for patronizing me in rearguards to Glen Beck types churning out reactionaries like rabbits on Spanish fly. Basically fuck everything you said.



Fuck you in general. I'm done with RevLeft. You fucking sectarian fool. This is why we have no movement. Your ego makes me vomit. I'm speaking about disunity within our movement and you perfectly highlight the problem. Nothing I said in the post you chose to criticize was anti-revolutionary or worthy of criticism. Just because my silly avatr on RevLeft says junior revolutionary doesnt mean I'm open for unwarranted condescending tripe. How are YOU going to preach solidarity when you're obviously only interested in your ego? It's not just you. I've only been on this forum fora month and have noticed a lame trend of unfounded critisizms', erroneous positions and self serving ego driven debate. Almost a complete lack of solidarity. If you think, as Bakunin did, you're going to spark some revolution without the masses of people knowing why then you are indeed a hierarchical elitist seeking to control others.

My general point in the post you chose to erroneously criticize was we need to counter the capitalist propaganda, show solidarity and help educate our fellow working class. There will be no elite minority sparking a revolution. We need the support of the masses. A shift in consciousness. Obviously before that happens we need to stop the sort of ego driven bullshit me and you are taking part in right now. Fuck that. I don't want to argue with you over nothing.

[Ravachol]

Ravachol- Bakunin believed in violence Kropotkin did not.


Kropotkin most certainly did, just not the Galleanist 'Propaganda of the deed' type of violence.



No socialism is not about materialism- not in the capitalist sense and I'm not talking about dialectical materialism I'm talking about McWorld materialism.


Materialism doesn't necessarly imply greed. If i'm seeking the improvement of my material living conditions, the motivating force of class struggle, i'm being a materialist.



[B] Environmentally we cannot create US style capitalist abundance for the entire world.


US style capitalist abudance? That's new to me...
Also, how can we not 'create' abudance? I fail to see scientifically solid evidence for that.



You don't understand contemporary socialism


I beg to differ, whilst I'm most certainly no expert at a lot of tedencies, I believe my grasp of socialism to be fairly solid.



and to call me a lifstylist is absurd.


Where did I do that? Way to overreact dude...
First of all, my post wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, let alone you.
Secondly, my post wasn't an attack, it was an observation. I spend my time leafleting too and it's a great addition, it's just not going to bring about the revolution by itself, there's more to that.
Thirdly,'lifestylism' is an accusation I don't easily fling around and certainly not in this topic.



And fuck you for patronizing me in rearguards to Glen Beck types churning out reactionaries like rabbits on Spanish fly. Basically fuck everything you said.


Well thank you. I sure hope you are either:

a) Drunk
b) On drugs
c) Overreacting
d) all of the above

I didn't patronize you at all. I merely criticised the notion that Glenn Beck type reactionaries should be the main point of worry for the left. This wasn't a personal assault, it was an argument, which, I believe, is the basis for discussion, the main purpose of this forum.



Fuck you in general. I'm done with RevLeft. You fucking sectarian fool.


People can call me a lot of things but I anything, I'm far from sectarian, most of Revleft can testify to that.



This is why we have no movement. Your ego makes me vomit. I'm speaking about disunity within our movement and you perfectly highlight the problem.


I highly doubt that. In practice I work together with Anarchists, Marxists-Leninists, Trotskyists and basically any revolutionary leftist tendency that has a solid practice and acceptable theory.



Nothing I said in the post you chose to criticize was anti-revolutionary or worthy of criticism.


I beg to differ, there were points I had questions about, like the statement on materialism and points I disagreed with. If you can't stand being disagreed with I suggest you don't post on a forum, a place for discussion.



Just because my silly avatr on RevLeft says junior revolutionary doesnt mean I'm open for unwarranted condescending tripe. How are YOU going to preach solidarity when you're obviously only interested in your ego?


If disagreeing with you is a show of 'ego', I highly suggest you, with all due respect, grow up. I wasn't condescending at all, feel free to disagree with my post and argue against it. Going mental of a disagreement isn't going to help really...



It's not just you. I've only been on this forum fora month and have noticed a lame trend of unfounded critisizms', erroneous positions and self serving ego driven debate.


Feel free to point out why my criticism is 'unfounded' or my positions are 'erroneous'. I love to debate and review my positions, that's the point of discussion.



If you think, as Bakunin did, you're going to spark some revolution without the masses of people knowing why then you are indeed a hierarchical elitist seeking to control others.


Yeah... except that Bakunin didn't believe that. As I pointed out, he favoured a mass-line as opposed to Galleanism or Blanquism. His often brought up love for secret insurrectionary societies was more of a personal thing which he never really brought into practice.
Also, if you took the time to read my postings you should note that I'm a strong proponent of mass-oriented Anarchism and a staunch opponent of insurrectionism. So meh.



My general point in the post you chose to erroneously criticize was we need to counter the capitalist propaganda


Which I agree with, I just pointed out that counter-propaganda alone isn't going to bring about the revolution. Care to eloborate as to why my criticism was 'erroneous'?



show solidarity and help educate our fellow working class.


Which, again, I agree with. I simply added the fact that I believe that the right material conditions are required for the revolution to be possible.



There will be no elite minority sparking a revolution.


And I argued for this where? If you had actually read my post, you would have noticed more than 80% of it consisted of an argument in favour of mass-oriented work by the pro-revolutionary milieu.

I suggest you calmly re-read the post and don't see it as a personal assault or attack at all actually. I was merely stating some of my opinions in relation to you comments.