Irish joining British Army

[Pogue]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7749793.stm

Are these guys mental?



"The Irish Defence Force - as the name suggests - is a defence force, it's not an army," he says. "It's for purely domestic use. It simply can't compare with the opportunities on offer with the British army."
What. The. Fuck. Have they no conception of history or the reality of the wars in the Middle East?

I have no problem with those Irish people who joined the British Army in WW2 to fight Hitler, I think that was a noble thing to do, but this. I can't believe it.

[Sean]

I have no problem with those Irish people who joined the British Army in WW2 to fight Hitler, I think that was a noble thing to do, but this. I can't believe it.
Agreed. Theres no fucking way these people should be allowed to return to their homes. I don't care how hard times are, you need to have some kind of integrity. Theres not even a famine and they're off to take the soup again, what the fuck?

[Andropov]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7749793.stm

Are these guys mental?



"The Irish Defence Force - as the name suggests - is a defence force, it's not an army," he says. "It's for purely domestic use. It simply can't compare with the opportunities on offer with the British army."
What. The. Fuck. Have they no conception of history or the reality of the wars in the Middle East?

I have no problem with those Irish people who joined the British Army in WW2 to fight Hitler, I think that was a noble thing to do, but this. I can't believe it.
It boggles the mind.
Mercenaries and war junkies which help sustain imperialism.

[FreeFocus]

It's the same bullshit, even worse, with my people (indigenous peoples) in the US. People seem to fucking forget their first-hand experiences with imperialism.

[wigsa]

Agreed. Theres no fucking way these people should be allowed to return to their homes. I don't care how hard times are, you need to have some kind of integrity. Theres not even a famine and they're off to take the soup again, what the fuck?

Off to take the soup again??ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS?

How fucking dare you say something like that.Do you have any idea of the hardship our country has faced over the last 8 centuries?We have been one of the most abused,oppressed,mistreated groups of people in the history of the world,and you have the fucking nerve to say 'we're off to take the soup again,and there's not even a famine'?

If I was in a room with you right now I would kick the fucking shit out of you for saying something so insensitive.These men have the right to join the British army if they wish.There is an Irish battallion for that reason.The Irish Defence Forces is,unfortunately,a load of shite,and if these men want the real army experience and feel a vocation to be in combat,it's their choice.How you can say something so insensitive about my people is really fucking ridiculous and insulting.

[Sankofa]

I agree, it's sad, but there are always collaborators who have no problem aiding the oppressor forces. I feel that same about Blacks who have no trouble joining the army, FBI and police force, but what are you gonna do?

It's just history; there were Africans who helped Europeans with the slave trade, Jews who sided with Nazis, Indigenous people who fought alongside colonizers against their own, Irish who join the British and today in Iraq there are Iraqis who work freely with the imperialists.

When the proletariat rises up to take hold of the means of production, there will be workers who fight against their own class interests in favor of the bourgeoisie.

[Sean]

Do you have any idea of the hardship our country has faced over the last 8 centuries?
No, as I'm obviously from Japan.

you have the fucking nerve to say 'we're off to take the soup again,and there's not even a famine'?
No, I singled out traitors who join the British army.

If I was in a room with you right now I would kick the fucking shit out of you for saying something so insensitive.
No.

These men have the right to join the British army if they wish.I have the right to despise the British army.


How you can say something so insensitive about my people is really fucking ridiculous and insulting.
Again, sorry, I'm quite obviously Japanese. Unless by your people you mean Irish men serving the British army quit saying 'we'. Did you get lost? Stormfront is two doors down, this is a fucking Revolutionary Left forum and pro-imperialist acts like joining the British fucking army when you're Irish is quite obviously going to be called for what it is.

[Andropov]

Off to take the soup again??ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS?

How fucking dare you say something like that.Do you have any idea of the hardship our country has faced over the last 8 centuries?We have been one of the most abused,oppressed,mistreated groups of people in the history of the world,and you have the fucking nerve to say 'we're off to take the soup again,and there's not even a famine'?

If I was in a room with you right now I would kick the fucking shit out of you for saying something so insensitive.These men have the right to join the British army if they wish.There is an Irish battallion for that reason.The Irish Defence Forces is,unfortunately,a load of shite,and if these men want the real army experience and feel a vocation to be in combat,it's their choice.How you can say something so insensitive about my people is really fucking ridiculous and insulting.

Hes Irish you twat.
Defending Irish people going fighting in imperialist forces is unforgiveable.
The fact that it was the very army they are joining that helped precipitate the hardship you state seems to be lost on you.
What a load of cock.

[Dóchas]

no true irish man, or woman would join the british army

[Guerrilla22]

No one should be joining the British army period.

[spartan]

Though I think it sad that anyone would want to join an army which has made itself such an intrinsic part of the US led imperialist subjugation of the middle east, I also think it quite sad that some here can judge these men so harshly as well for their decision to join the British army.

The fact is the vast majority of ordinary people don't think in terms of imperialism vs anti-imperialism or the troubled history between Ireland and Britain like we do, all they care about is having a job with a stable income which allows them and their families a decent standard of living like every working class person.

The idealism of some to go complaining about working class people just trying to find a career which gives them a good life is quite shocking and not what I would expect from the left.

People seem to live in a dreamworld when it comes to these issues and don't seem to understand that most working class people couldn't give two shits about revolution, capitalism, imperialism, socialism, etc, all they care about is getting a wage to live!

Please stop judging people for doing what they think is the only thing they can do in the shit circumstances which they find themselves in.

You try putting yourself in their shoes!

I wonder if you would not do the same?

*waits for idealistic shitstorm*

[FreeFocus]

I don't give two shits about circumstances in this case, if you join up to murder poor people abroad and destroy their country, I have no sympathy or respect for you. Take away the life of a father of three children so you can "feed" your children? Despicable. You may argue that such is life, and I agree that may be the reality some people are faced with. Doesn't make it right, and it certainly doesn't mean I should respect or honor it. Even if they aren't on the frontlines, I have real problems with even associations with the institution.

If you destroy the family of innocent people and unjustly attack another country, you get what you get, and it shouldn't be sympathy.

[Coggeh]

Off to take the soup again??ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS?

How fucking dare you say something like that.Do you have any idea of the hardship our country has faced over the last 8 centuries?We have been one of the most abused,oppressed,mistreated groups of people in the history of the world,and you have the fucking nerve to say 'we're off to take the soup again,and there's not even a famine'?

If I was in a room with you right now I would kick the fucking shit out of you for saying something so insensitive.These men have the right to join the British army if they wish.There is an Irish battallion for that reason.The Irish Defence Forces is,unfortunately,a load of shite,and if these men want the real army experience and feel a vocation to be in combat,it's their choice.How you can say something so insensitive about my people is really fucking ridiculous and insulting.
No need to flame so much , I don't see the insults however that you may see and I too are Irish , I'm sorry his comment may have offended you but seriously how can you defend nothing short of idiots who are gone off to fight with an imperialist nation ? I understand the whole concept of workers in the army to escape poverty etc etc ... but clearly the folk who go fight with a British army get something more out of it and should really in my view lined up against a wall and shot because their stupidity is something the world can do without now .....

[Coggeh]

I don't give two shits about circumstances in this case, if you join up to murder poor people abroad and destroy their country, I have no sympathy or respect for you. Take away the life of a father of three children so you can "feed" your children? Despicable. You may argue that such is life, and I agree that may be the reality some people are faced with. Doesn't make it right, and it certainly doesn't mean I should respect or honor it. Even if they aren't on the frontlines, I have real problems with even associations with the institution.

If you destroy the family of innocent people and unjustly attack another country, you get what you get, and it shouldn't be sympathy.
Would you say that everyone who joins the US army so is completely reactionary ? a lot of them are forced into signing up because their are no other real viable options as to getting to college etc . Plus the whole patriotic brainwashing bullsh*t

[spartan]

I don't give two shits about circumstances in this case, if you join up to murder poor people abroad and destroy their country, I have no sympathy or respect for you. Take away the life of a father of three children so you can "feed" your children? Despicable. You may argue that such is life, and I agree that may be the reality some people are faced with. Doesn't make it right, and it certainly doesn't mean I should respect or honor it. Even if they aren't on the frontlines, I have real problems with even associations with the institution.

If you destroy the family of innocent people and unjustly attack another country, you get what you get, and it shouldn't be sympathy.

It's not about right or wrong or respecting someone's decision, it's about the reality which alot of working class Irishmen are now facing with this global credit crunch and the less then ideal solutions they have to get themselves out of the shithole they now find themselves in.

This solution should be revolution but most people don't think like that apart from those who look at life from an idealistic standpoint.

Most people will simply continue to look for jobs (like the army) to get themselves a good income (and lets face it the army will always be there so if we are being realistic these lads have made a wise decision job wise, especially if they are the lucky few who don't end up going to war).

I am a supporter of a united Ireland and wish to see the break up of Britain (as I fucking hate it) but at the end of the day I am not going to judge some Irish lad who sees no other alternative to getting a good income then joining the British army.

It's not really our place to have a go at working class lads trying to find a good paying job and yes I know that that job in question entails killing others (though if you are lucky you may not be sent out to a warzone which I think most of these lads are probably counting on) but some people are prepared to pay that price for the sake of their own families having a decent standard of living.

It's shitty I know but I don't see the Irish working class rising up to end this vicious cycle of oppression so?

[Sean]

The fact is the vast majority of ordinary people don't think in terms of imperialism vs anti-imperialism or the troubled history between Ireland and Britain like we do, all they care about is having a job with a stable income which allows them and their families a decent standard of living like every working class person.
Spartan, the time that you took writing that opinion piece would have been better spent rewatching the video clip as you obviously missed the point where the guy you are defending refutes your entire point:

INTERVIEWER: Were you quite open with your friends and family, or not perhaps your family but your extended friends about what you were doing and who you were going to work for?
LANCE SERGEANT EDDIE ROONIE: No. I just said, "Look I'm just going off to England for a job."
INTERVIEWER: And you didn't tell them because...?
LANCE SERGEANT EDDIE ROONIE: I didn't tell them because I didn't know what their reaction was going to be. I wanted to keep it to myself because of the area I was living in. And obviously [something or other] my extended family are still living in the area and I had to think of security all the time.Obviously this person doesn't think enough of Imperialism or the troubles, but his community do and evidently feel strongly enough about it that he must hide it from them.

[The Douche]

I don't give two shits about circumstances in this case, if you join up to murder poor people abroad and destroy their country, I have no sympathy or respect for you. Take away the life of a father of three children so you can "feed" your children? Despicable. You may argue that such is life, and I agree that may be the reality some people are faced with. Doesn't make it right, and it certainly doesn't mean I should respect or honor it. Even if they aren't on the frontlines, I have real problems with even associations with the institution.

If you destroy the family of innocent people and unjustly attack another country, you get what you get, and it shouldn't be sympathy.

You know there are and have been soldiers who are revolutionary? You know the swaying the army to the side of revolutionary thought is an integral part of a successful revolution?

Sorry but talk like this is offensive to me. I'm in the Army. Do I think the army is good, does good things, do I encourage people to enlist, do I get pleasure out of deploying to Iraq?

Of course not. What I have done is done, and I shouldn't be condemned for it. (nor should any other soldier) Unless they support imperialism. (consciously, as in, it has been clearly explained to them in a clam and comrade-ly way, why imperialism is wrong, how what they do serves imperialism, and what the options are)

But why an irishman would join the British army I do not know. That would be like, if in 30 years Iraqis were trying to join the US army.

[BobKKKindle$]

Of course not. What I have done is done, and I shouldn't be condemned for itSomeone who makes a voluntary decision to become part of the imperialist military should be condemned, as it is only through vigorous condemnation that we can bring the non-revolutionary strata of the proletariat round to a progressive viewpoint and make them understand that the military is designed to maintain the class rule of the bourgeoisie, both by conducting oppression within the imperialist core, and carrying out bloody wars of imperialist aggression against the oppressed nations of the world. Anyone who becomes part of the military is a supporter imperialism even if they are not aware of it because that is what the military is for. The argument that people join up to the military because they are poor is problematic, because it is based on the assumption that economic compulsion can serve as a rational justification for any kind of position, even if it involves someone being directly complicit in the exploitation of the imperialist periphery. There is such a thing as free agency regardless of economic conditions, and members of the military can be held responsible for their decision to join, and any crimes they commit in that capacity.

[spartan]

Someone who makes a voluntary decision to become part of the imperialist military should be condemned, as it is only through vigorous condemnation that we can bring the non-revolutionary strata of the proletariat round to a progressive viewpoint and make them understand that the military is designed to maintain the class rule of the bourgeoisie, both by conducting oppression within the imperialist core, and carrying out bloody wars of imperialist aggression against the oppressed nations of the world. Anyone who becomes part of the military is a supporter imperialism even if they are not aware of it because that is what the military is for. The argument that people join up to the military because they are poor is problematic, because it is based on the assumption that economic compulsion can serve as a rational justification for any kind of position, even if it involves someone being directly complicit in the exploitation of the imperialist periphery. There is such a thing as free agency regardless of economic conditions, and members of the military can be held responsible for their decision to join, and any crimes they commit in that capacity.

Is it really voluntary though?

I mean if I have just lost my job in some factory manufacturing television sets and have no source of income for my wife and three kids (one of whom is disabled and thus has special, and bloody expensive, needs) and there are no good paying jobs in the area then what else could I realistically do in this situation?

The military has many advantages for people as a) it is always going to be there ensuring job security b) it pays well and there are opportunities for promotion and thus more money and c) you can learn other trades whilst in the military which could come in useful should you find yourself retired from the army.

I admire your, and others on this thread, outlook on life but feel it is far too idealistic and doesn't seem to leave any space for the reality which working class people (and these Irish lads joining the British army) find themselves in, especially in the midst of a global credit crisis which is fast turning into an economic crisis the likes of which we haven't seen since the great depression.

In an ideal world working class people wouldn't join the military and kill their fellow man to help expand imperialism, and would instead start a revolution overthrowing capitalism to set everything right, but this isn't an ideal world and working class people more often then not don't think the same way as we do in these situations which further complicates everything from our perspective.

[BobKKKindle$]

Is it really voluntary though?Even if it somehow not voluntary, becoming part of the imperialist army is never justified.


a) it is always going to be there What does that tell you? It shows that the imperialist powers will always be willing to use armed force in the imperialist periphery to impose their own economic priorities on the rest of the world and maintain the transfer of resources from the periphery to the core, and so anyone who is part of the military will eventually be forced to become complicit in the exploitation of the oppressed nations. When an imperialist power is occupying an oppressed nation and exploiting the nation on behalf of its national bourgeoisie, it is in the interests of the international proletariat for that power to be forced to withdraw by whatever means necessary, even if withdrawal requires the death of every singe soldier who is part of the occupation force. Communists always take the side of the oppressed and exploited majority, which means we side with oppressed nations in their struggle against imperialism in every part of the world.


b) it pays well and there are opportunities for promotion and thus more money You need to analyze the situation from the viewpoint of the global proletariat and especially from the viewpoint of the most exploited sections of the proletariat in the periphery, and not from the viewpoint of the proletarians in the core who are choosing to become part of the imperialist military apparatus. Imperialism never "pays well" for the international proletariat, because imperialism merely serves to perpetuate capitalism by providing the bourgeoisie with outlets for surplus capital which cannot be invested within the imperialist core, a process which results in the oppressed nations being reduced to a permanent condition of dependency and underdevelopment.

[The Douche]

Someone who makes a voluntary decision to become part of the imperialist military should be condemned, as it is only through vigorous condemnation that we can bring the non-revolutionary strata of the proletariat round to a progressive viewpoint and make them understand that the military is designed to maintain the class rule of the bourgeoisie, both by conducting oppression within the imperialist core, and carrying out bloody wars of imperialist aggression against the oppressed nations of the world. Anyone who becomes part of the military is a supporter imperialism even if they are not aware of it because that is what the military is for. The argument that people join up to the military because they are poor is problematic, because it is based on the assumption that economic compulsion can serve as a rational justification for any kind of position, even if it involves someone being directly complicit in the exploitation of the imperialist periphery. There is such a thing as free agency regardless of economic conditions, and members of the military can be held responsible for their decision to join, and any crimes they commit in that capacity.

The action should be condemned and citiscized, but not the individual is what I'm trying to say.

The majority of people in the army aren't there cause they want to kill people and secure new markets for the capitalist class. They are there cause they have no idea what to do with their lives. And they have never been exposed to any sort of revolutionary thought.

Do you think the majority of soldiers support the war? The vast majority of soldiers have a crude understanding of why the Iraqi resistance exists. ("if somebody invaded my country I'd be out in the street with a gun") They even know that the war (an all wars) exist to make big profits for a few people.

And as for crimes that may be committed by soldiers, that is a whole different issue.

But are you implying that I am a counter-revolutionary because I am in the army?

[BobKKKindle$]

But are you implying that I am a counter-revolutionary because I am in the army? I don't have time to respond to the rest of what you said, but just to deal with this - if you were a member of the army at some point in the past but have since recognized that you made a mistake and have chosen to quit, then no you are not a counter-revolutionary, but if this is not the case are you are still in the army, then you are a counter-revolutionary.


And as for crimes that may be committed by soldiers, that is a whole different issue.

The mere act of being part of an occupation force is a crime in itself, even if the individual in question does not rape or commit any further acts of violence when they are part of the occupation force.

[Sean]

I certainly don't think that military service and revolutionary ideas are incompatible, in fact soldiers like cmoney are necessary. A revolution of pacifist librarians wouldnt reach very far and good luck wiping out the entire army and making a new one from scratch. If you are a soldier caught up in acts of aggression against other nations then you should object, however it is important to have someone to defend a country too.
My issue is not with soldiers in general, but this rather farsical situation involving Irishmen siding with the people that fucked their own people over for hundreds of years (and counting in the North). I don't have the same contempt for, say, an Englishman joining the British Army (but its still there and will take a long time to disappear).

[The Douche]

I don't have time to respond to the rest of what you said, but just to deal with this - if you were a member of the army at some point in the past but have since recognized that you made a mistake and have chosen to quit, then no you are not a counter-revolutionary, but if this is not the case are you are still in the army, then you are a counter-revolutionary.



The mere act of being part of an occupation force is a crime in itself, even if the individual in question does not rape or commit any further acts of violence when they are part of the occupation force.

1) Yes I am currently still enlisted in the army. I'm not going to go AWOL and end up in prison and leave my family out to dry. I have real world obligations that I need to tend to, and I can't do that from prison. I assume, since you are a revolutionary, you oppose the idea of "dropping out" advocated by groups like crimethinc. So if you oppose dropping out then why are you suggestting that soldiers should do it? I think my time is better spent talking to other soldiers and helping them become revolutionaries, as opposed to sitting in federal prison.

2) You're right, I thought you were referring to "war crimes".

[spartan]

My issue is not with soldiers in general, but this rather farsical situation involving Irishmen siding with the people that fucked their own people over for hundreds of years (and counting in the North). I don't have the same contempt for, say, an Englishman joining the British Army (but its still there and will take a long time to disappear).

Yes but do these people care enough for all that history?

I mean no offence to all that went before but these men have much bigger concerns then history, like them and their families needs for instance which surely overrides what happened in the mid nineteenth century or what is going on north of the border today?

These men have to think practically not in terms of history and letting that effect there situation.

And all this involves money and for some the only way to get that in sufficient enough quantities to ensure a decent standard of living for those they love in times of job shortages is to join the military.

I respect that your issue isn't with soldiers in general and I also take the point earlier that these men must have cared enough about the past due to their not informing their families, friends and neighbours of their decision to join the British army, but in these worrying times of economic trouble these men simply have more important things to care about then the troubles and all that.

It's shit but it's just the way it is for some people and I don't really think there is anything we could do about it all apart from trying to talk them out of it if we knew them (but then what else could they do in the circumstances as an alternative for money when the military was the only realistic job opportunity paying good money they had?).

[The Douche]

Yes but do these people care enough for all that history?

I mean no offence to all that went before but these men have much bigger concerns then history, like them and their families needs for instance which surely overrides what happened in the mid nineteenth century or what is going on north of the border today?

These men have to think practically not in terms of history and letting that effect there situation.

And all this involves money and for some the only way to get that in sufficient enough quantities to ensure a decent standard of living for those they love in times of job shortages is to join the military.

I respect that your issue isn't with soldiers in general and I also take the point earlier that these men must have cared enough about the past due to their not informing their families, friends and neighbours of their decision to join the British army, but in these worrying times of economic trouble these men simply have more important things to care about then the troubles and all that.

It's shit but it's just the way it is for some people and I don't really think there is anything we could do about it all apart from trying to talk them out of it if we knew them (but then what else could they do in the circumstances as an alternative for money when the military was the only realistic job opportunity paying good money they had?).

It was only thirty years ago that british soldiers were patrolling the streets of Belfast in full combat gear. Thirty years is not a long time, some of these people who are enlisting, their uncles were probably harrassed by the army they're joining. Its fucked.

Not to mention they are choosing to join the British army when Ireland has an army of their own. So if it really was motivated by dire economic straits then why would they choose the British army over the largely (entirely?) defensive Irish army?

[spartan]

It was only thirty years ago that british soldiers were patrolling the streets of Belfast in full combat gear. Thirty years is not a long time, some of these people who are enlisting, their uncles were probably harrassed by the army they're joining. Its fucked.

Not to mention they are choosing to join the British army when Ireland has an army of their own. So if it really was motivated by dire economic straits then why would they choose the British army over the largely (entirely?) defensive Irish army?

I am guessing that the pay is better in the British army and the Irish army is very small and has no desire to expand it's numbers (leaving these lads perhaps thinking they didn't have a good chance at getting in whereas the Brits need them).

There is also the possibility of getting a job in Britain post-army service as they may believe there are more job opportunities in Britain compared with Ireland.

[BobKKKindle$]

I assume, since you are a revolutionary, you oppose the idea of "dropping out" advocated by groups like crimethinc

There is a clear difference between trying to isolate yourself completely from capitalist society by refusing to do any kind of job or purchase a commodity, and making a decision not to participate directly in the oppression of the periphery by refusing to remain part of the armed forces of the capitalist state. As long as you remain in the army, you are serving the interests of the bourgeoisie by conducting wars of aggression on their behalf which are intended to secure control of economic resources and subject the people of Iraq to the power of US corporations. During the Vietnam War, large numbers of brave individuals refused to participate in the imperialist war by publicly burning their draft cards, and they faced punishment as a result of their actions - there is no reason why you should not face a moral obligation to do exactly the same thing. If you break away from the army you may end up in prison and this probably would have a negative impact on your family, but by showing that you reject imperialism you will be setting a positive example which other soldiers will be able to follow, and you will be able to take advantage of your inevitable persecution at the hands of the state to expose the military for what it really is - a violent institution which is central to the capitalist system and draws in new recruits with seductive promises of education and a secure job in exchange for their cooperation in carrying out the imperialist wars of the bourgeoisie. By claiming that you are being forced into the military by your need to find a secure job, you are ignoring the fact that the actions of the military are responsible for the people of Iraq being deprived not only of the right to work, but also of the right to access clean water, and the right to live without being afraid of bombs falling from the sky each day into their homes. You are placing your own selfish concerns above the lives of ordinary Iraqis.

You need to decide who your comrades are. My comrades are the people of Iraq, who are currently suffering under the burden of a foreign occupation, and are fighting against the most powerful military in the entire world to expel the occupation from their country and establish a government which reflects their interests, not the interests of a foreign bourgeoisie. If the Iraqi people find that the only way they can expel the occupation is to kill all of the soldiers who are currently stationed in Iraq, even those who have allegedly been compelled to become part of the military due to their economic position and the absence of other jobs, then so be it, that's a decision that only the people of Iraq have a right to make. Do you support the resistance struggle of the Iraqi people, knowing that their struggle will lead to the deaths of American soldiers, or do you care more about the lives of imperialist oppressors?

[PRC-UTE]

a lot of Irishmen have served in the British Army for centuries. I'm kind of surprised this was treated as newsworthy. wasn't it tens of thousands in the BA in WWII?

anyway, it does reinforce that the 26c state is not in any way republican.

[Andropov]

I am guessing that the pay is better in the British army and the Irish army is very small and has no desire to expand it's numbers (leaving these lads perhaps thinking they didn't have a good chance at getting in whereas the Brits need them).

There is also the possibility of getting a job in Britain post-army service as they may believe there are more job opportunities in Britain compared with Ireland.

The arguments for joining the British Army from Irish lads do not consist of financial benefits in the British Army with comparison to the Free State Army.
It is about "seeing action" etc, war junkies.
Ive seen this personally, one of my best mates is in the Free Army and two brothers from his battalion are joining the British Army.
Not for the money, for the action.
I can appreciate your stand point here Spartan but it is inexcusable for an Irish man to join the British Army when he could easily join the Free State Army and have more than an adequate wage.

[The Douche]

There is a clear difference between trying to isolate yourself completely from capitalist society by refusing to do any kind of job or purchase a commodity, and making a decision not to participate directly in the oppression of the periphery by refusing to remain part of the armed forces of the capitalist state.

There is also a clear difference between not joining the army (something I encourage) and desertion in time of war (something which is punishable by death).


As long as you remain in the army, you are serving the interests of the bourgeoisie by conducting wars of aggression on their behalf which are intended to secure control of economic resources and subject the people of Iraq to the power of US corporations.

I have already made this statement, you're not bringing anythin g new to light.


During the Vietnam War, large numbers of brave individuals refused to participate in the imperialist war by publicly burning their draft cards, and they faced punishment as a result of their actions - there is no reason why you should not face a moral obligation to do exactly the same thing.

I suggest that you pick up a copy of "rebels in olive drab". It is about a strategy developed after people realised that burning draft cards wasn't effective anymore, and they acceptted their enlistments and tried to organize soldiers in the army. But I guess they were just counter-revolutionary assholes like me huh?


If you break away from the army you may end up in prison and this probably would have a negative impact on your family, but by showing that you reject imperialism you will be setting a positive example which other soldiers will be able to follow, and you will be able to take advantage of your inevitable persecution at the hands of the state to expose the military for what it really is - a violent institution which is central to the capitalist system and draws in new recruits with seductive promises of education and a secure job in exchange for their cooperation in carrying out the imperialist wars of the bourgeoisie. By claiming that you are being forced into the military by your need to find a secure job, you are ignoring the fact that the actions of the military are responsible for the people of Iraq being deprived not only of the right to work, but also of the right to access clean water, and the right to live without being afraid of bombs falling from the sky each day into their homes. You are placing your own selfish concerns above the lives of ordinary Iraqis.

No by just refusing to participate in the army, and deserting I will be captured, tried quietly, and put in prison. I will be assumed a coward, not a revolutionary. Its not that I care about looking like a coward, but its the way I would be percieved, I would not be any sort of "example" to anybody. However, by being out in the public world, my position as a veteran of the war in Iraq gives me a great ammount of authority when I tell kids not to join the military or when I tell people why the war is wrong. I (and anybody else in the world) can do a lot more good outside of prison than inside. And your flipant suggestion that I should not be afraid to go to jail for a very long time would make it appear to me that you don't know what its like to have a family or to be in jail.


You need to decide who your comrades are. My comrades are the people of Iraq, who are currently suffering under the burden of a foreign occupation, and are fighting against the most powerful military in the entire world to expel the occupation from their country and establish a government which reflects their interests, not the interests of a foreign bourgeoisie. If the Iraqi people find that the only way they can expel the occupation is to kill all of the soldiers who are currently stationed in Iraq, even those who have allegedly been compelled to become part of the military due to their economic position and the absence of other jobs, then so be it, that's a decision that only the people of Iraq have a right to make. Do you support the resistance struggle of the Iraqi people, knowing that their struggle will lead to the deaths of American soldiers, or do you care more about the lives of imperialist oppressors?

You can can search my posts from the past and see that I support the Iraqi resistance. I have even made the statement on this board (while I was in Iraq) that my own death would ne a victory for anti-imperialism.,So I would appreciate if you didn't lecture me about how the resistance are your "comrades" when I have faced that contradiction myself and live every day with that weight on my shoulders. The entire time I was there from day one, till the day I left I considered the Iraqi resistance to be the "right side" of the war, so fuck off.

[Pogue]

It's not about right or wrong or respecting someone's decision, it's about the reality which alot of working class Irishmen are now facing with this global credit crunch and the less then ideal solutions they have to get themselves out of the shithole they now find themselves in.

This solution should be revolution but most people don't think like that apart from those who look at life from an idealistic standpoint.

Most people will simply continue to look for jobs (like the army) to get themselves a good income (and lets face it the army will always be there so if we are being realistic these lads have made a wise decision job wise, especially if they are the lucky few who don't end up going to war).

I am a supporter of a united Ireland and wish to see the break up of Britain (as I fucking hate it) but at the end of the day I am not going to judge some Irish lad who sees no other alternative to getting a good income then joining the British army.

It's not really our place to have a go at working class lads trying to find a good paying job and yes I know that that job in question entails killing others (though if you are lucky you may not be sent out to a warzone which I think most of these lads are probably counting on) but some people are prepared to pay that price for the sake of their own families having a decent standard of living.

It's shitty I know but I don't see the Irish working class rising up to end this vicious cycle of oppression so?

There are always alternatives to joining the BA. These guys are actively saying they want to cross the border to fight for the BA instead of the Irish Army because the irish army is only defence.

They're clearly making an active decision to choose the BA over the alternatives. This is wrong. Hell, one guy said he wants 'action', basicaly saying he is going to join the BA to go kill people in Iraq and Afghanistan. He's a twat.

[Pogue]

Furthermore spartan, did you even read the piece? He said he wants to go to a warzone. He says he joined the British Army for more action, because the Irish Army is simply defense. He is actively saying he wants to go fight in aggressive wars - invasions, wars of imperialist aggression, rather than joining the Irish military and be active in peaceful, homeland situations. He is actively choosing the murderous, pro-capitalist path.

[spartan]

Furthermore spartan, did you even read the piece? He said he wants to go to a warzone. He says he joined the British Army for more action, because the Irish Army is simply defense. He is actively saying he wants to go fight in aggressive wars - invasions, wars of imperialist aggression, rather than joining the Irish military and be active in peaceful, homeland situations. He is actively choosing the murderous, pro-capitalist path.

Yes he is seeking action but I doubt he knows that his action is "pro-capitalist" or helping imperialism as I doubt that anyone other then us even care about such things ubfortunately.

So yeah I agree that this one guy is a twat for actively seeking out action and danger at the expense of those on the receiving end of all that.

Also my posts weren't just about this one guy in the article but Irish lads joining the British army in general.

[FreeFocus]

To be blunt, a pig is a pig is a pig.

I understand that economic conditions lead people to make certain decisions. Those decisions are their's, and they face the consequences of their decisions, good and bad. This is little different than someone in Africa or Asia who engages in child slavery to "get by" or a poor inner-city man who kills an elderly woman with a cane walking down the street to "put food on the table" by stealing her purse. Fine, economic realities prompted these decisions, but know then that reality and your decisions have placed you on a different side than those who struggle for their rights, those who struggle against racism, those who struggle against imperialism, those who struggle for a more just world.

[The Douche]

To be blunt, a pig is a pig is a pig.

I understand that economic conditions lead people to make certain decisions. Those decisions are their's, and they face the consequences of their decisions, good and bad. This is little different than someone in Africa or Asia who engages in child slavery to "get by" or a poor inner-city man who kills an elderly woman with a cane walking down the street to "put food on the table" by stealing her purse. Fine, economic realities prompted these decisions, but know then that reality and your decisions have placed you on a different side than those who struggle for their rights, those who struggle against racism, those who struggle against imperialism, those who struggle for a more just world.

So off to the gulag with all soldiers?

Thats what's being advocated by Bob Kindles.

Also, there is a difference between cops and soldiers.

[spartan]

So off to the gulag with all soldiers?

Thats what's being advocated by Bob Kindles.

Also, there is a difference between cops and soldiers.

A big difference.

People don't seem to realise just how important soldiers really are.

Would the Russian revolution have been a success had the millions of Russian soldiers not deserted the army and joined the rebels in massive numbers taking their weapons with them? I doubt it.

Instead of constant debates about Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin we would still be talking about the tyranny of Tsar Nicholas II if it wasn't for those soldiers!