The holocaust [SPLIT from discrimination forum]

[Anarch_Mesa]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Lothal_seals.jpg

This symbol dates back, way back. The picture above is from 3000–1500 B.C. It was used in Greece in 250 B.C. It was used in hundreds of civilizations, before the Germans during WWII

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/Swastika_iran.jpg







Why would you want to reclaim a symbol that was the image that sent 12 million prisoners to their death?


Possibly the funniest thing I have heard in a long time, 12 million...

[Anarch_Mesa]

Close to 12 million people did die during the course of the HolocaustHolocaust - is the term generally used to describe the genocide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide) of approximately six million European Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew) during World War II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II), as part of a programme of deliberate extermination planned and executed by the National Socialist German Workers’ Party (Nazi) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party) regime in Germany led by Adolf Hitler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler). - Wikipedia.

The numbers of people that died including the homosexuals, gypsys, Polish people and more adds up to around 10 million. This is nowhere close to 12 million. I would also like to state that when the information was released 20 million jewish people had died, then 15, then 10, then 8, now 6. Eventually they will get their numbers straight.

Unless you want to throw in some of the Russian civilians and then you just broaden the definition to 16 - 17 million.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wsxmCTScCE&feature=related Check this link out.

[bcbm]

The numbers of people that died including the homosexuals, gypsys, Polish people and more adds up to around 10 million. This is nowhere close to 12 million.

Wiki says it could be 9 to 11 million, which are fairly close to 12 million, actually. Its certainly closer than 6 million to an accurate number.


Eventually they will get their numbers straight.

Want to elaborate on what exactly you mean here? Who is "they?" Do you think the numbers are too high?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wsxmCTScCE&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wsxmCTScCE&feature=related) Check this link out.

And yet the guards, Germans and prisoners in the camp all agree there were hundreds of thousands killed there and there are pictures like this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/74/Treblinka_1945.jpg/800px-Treblinka_1945.jpg

Bones and personal effects in a disturbed mass grave. Get the fuck out of here with your holocaust denial bullshit.

[#FF0000]

The numbers of people that died including the homosexuals, gypsys, Polish people and more adds up to around 10 million. This is nowhere close to 12 million. I would also like to state that when the information was released 20 million jewish people had died, then 15, then 10, then 8, now 6. Eventually they will get their numbers straight.

Oh whoops. Wait up guys they only killed 10 million people. That changes everything.

What's your point, Anarch Mesa? This is making you look really dodgy right now.

[bcbm]

He linked to a holocaust denial link... I think this is a bit beyond dodgy.

[Dimentio]

What do you like Jews?

[bcbm]

Yes.

[Anarch_Mesa]

Wiki says it could be 9 to 11 million, which are fairly close to 12 million, actually. Its certainly closer than 6 million to an accurate number.

I never claimed it to be 6 million, and 1 - 2 million is actually a huge number.


Want to elaborate on what exactly you mean here? Who is "they?" Do you think the numbers are too high?

"They" meaning the people who published the statistics. I'm not going to say I think they are too high I am just going to say I don't trust the numbers.


And yet the guards, Germans and prisoners in the camp all agree there were hundreds of thousands killed there and there are pictures like this:

First of all, don't assume I am denying the killing of Jewish people. I am not denying anything I am showing a link of a video in which people tested the soil and found nothing. This does not mean I believe the HOLOCAUST didn't happen It simply means I posted what I thought to be an interesting link.


Oh whoops. Wait up guys they only killed 10 million people. That changes everything.

What's your point, Anarch Mesa? This is making you look really dodgy right now.

Ok, let me go ahead and tell you to read the post that brought this up. I was quoting someone and laughing at their 12 million defens. I am not trying to convince you to bring the Swastika back because only 10 million died. I don't think the swastika has a chance of ever becoming a symbol not recognized by the public as a bad thing. Though it is not a bad image and has been around since B.C. in religious cultures and more.

I guess I'm a dodgy person then.



But the nazi 'swastika' is not the same as the historic religious/cultural symbols from which it drew inspiration- and the use of those symbols is still common place, so again - there really is nothing to 'reclaim'.


I think he is referring the actual image, not just the nazi version.

[Sasha]

yes and david irving "proved" that no jews where gassed at all, how intresting, lets link to him also...

what is there not to believe the numbers? you think some of my family is still hiding in the atic instead of being shipped of to auswitsch 60 sommething years ago.
fuck you, you holocaust denial (oh pardon, i guess you prefer the term revisionist) piece of shit.

[bcbm]

First of all, don't assume I am denying the killing of Jewish people. I am not denying anything I am showing a link of a video in which people tested the soil and found nothing. This does not mean I believe the HOLOCAUST didn't happen It simply means I posted what I thought to be an interesting link.Riight.

"I'm just claiming the numbers are wrong (and constantly getting lower, but I'm not saying they're too high, really!) and posting an "interesting link" about how no killing happened at Treblinka (which is flat out wrong according to Nazi documents, but oh its a video on youtube so...) but not relating that to my previous number skepticism at all, nooo."

Take a fucking hike. The holocaust and the numbers around it are factually solid and there's a ton of evidence to back it up.

[Anarch_Mesa]

yes and david irving "proved" that no jews where gassed at all, how intresting, lets link to him also...... Ok ...


what is there not to believe the numbers? you think some of my family is still hiding in the atic instead of being shipped of to auswitsch 60 sommething years ago.
fuck you, you holocaust denial (oh pardon, i guess you prefer the term revisionist) piece of shit.Ok, first off let me state that there is no need to be a complete ass.
Secondly, Me doubting the numbers has nothing to do with denial. There is no way of telling how many people died during the Holocaust, these are rough guesses. These guesses have been changed and revised many, many times over the years. If you want to throw some proof that 6 million jews died then please be my guest, I'm open for anything. Yes, I doubt the numbers, but I'm not saying Jews did not die.


Take a fucking hike. The holocaust and the numbers around it are factually solid and there's a ton of evidence to back it up.Show me please.


"I'm just claiming the numbers are wrong (and constantly getting lower, but I'm not saying they're too high, really!)

You must just love to argue, I stated in my first post
I'm not going to say I think they are too high I am just going to say I don't trust the numbers.



and posting an "interesting link" about how no killing happened at Treblinka (which is flat out wrong according to Nazi documents, but oh its a video on youtube so...)

Ok, I said Check this out, Never anywhere did I say I agreed with the video now your just putting words in my mouth.

[bcbm]

Show me please.

Google it yourself, I don't feel the need to provide evidence of established historical fact. Every holocaust "revisionist" argument has been completely debunked many times over.


You must just love to argue, I stated in my first post

I know you did and I'm pointing out how full of shit you are. You think they're too low?


Ok, I said Check this out, Never anywhere did I say I agreed with the video now your just putting words in my mouth.

You just link to videos you don't believe in that are about holocaust denial bullshit in an argument where you're saying the numbers are wrong. You must think we're real fucking daft, eh?

[Black Dagger]

Secondly, Me doubting the numbers has nothing to do with denial. There is no way of telling how many people died during the Holocaust, these are rough guesses. These guesses have been changed and revised many, many times over the years. If you want to throw some proof that 6 million jews died then please be my guest, I'm open for anything. Yes, I doubt the numbers, but I'm not saying Jews did not die.


Here's your problem - why do you feel the need to question these statistics? What do you hope to achieve by getting the most accurate number possible? Why does that matter? We know it was a lot, the exact number doesn't change this or serve any useful purpose? How will that change anything? What will it change?

The holocaust happened - a large number - millions of jews were murdered by the nazi regime (not to mention countless other 'undesireables') - this is supported by decades of research, both oral and written sources - there's nothing 'rough' about this research as you suggest. Indeed, given the huge place WWII and the Nazis have in history - the holocaust is probably one of the most well-researched and supported 'facts' in recorded human history.

Obviously as more evidence was uncovered, more indepth research was done etc. 'the figure' changed - as it was revised by historians - it would be naive to think that the most accurate number would have been the first one historians came to. But instead of seeing these shifts over time for what they are - the entrenchment of the historical reality of the holocaust - you see the very opposite - as undermining of the credibility of any figure. That is a clear misunderstanding of how history and history writing works.

Historical knowledge is rooted in evidence ('sources') and interpretation- historians intepret the evidence availabe to them through research and make arguments about 'what happened'. Over time these arguments may be challenged or revised by other historians disputing evidence or presenting new evidence or interpretation of old evidence that calls into doubt the orthodox view of events. That historical knowledge is open to dispute or reinterpretation with new evidence does not make history less credible, reliable or accurate - quite the opposite - this debate is crucial to ensure rigorous research has been done, and that the conclusions are well supported.

You misintepret this process as a weakness, and in the case of the holocaust suggest that this shows that historians are merely 'guessing' and making 'rough' estimates. Of course the exact number of people murdered will never be known, but exact numbers are not the domain of history. That doesn't mean that historians will not attempt to craft figures - but all of these are meant to be read as aproximations based on research - rather than 'correct' figures or mere guesses. The same is really true for all of history - as the historical record is woefully incomplete a rigorously researched aproximation of the past is really the best we can hope for.



you want to throw some proof that 6 million jews died then please be my guest, I'm open for anything. Yes, I doubt the numbers, but I'm not saying Jews did not die.

But why? And no, the fact that the number has been revised over time is not a justification for 'doubting' it now (unless you have evidence to dispute it). Why do you doubt the capability of hundreds if not thousands of historians for this specific piece of historical knowledge? Do you doubt that Napoleon existed too? That the spanish first invaded south america in 1492? You should, these historical facts have much less historical evidence behind them. But you don't do you? These facts are equally open to challenge through research - evidence and interpretation - but have not attracted anything but a fraction of the effort attributed to WWII history yet they are not up for debate.

Why? Well it has nothing to do with history or the 'accuracy' of these facts, that's for sure. It's because unlike these bits of knowledge, holocaust history (or disputing this history) can be used as a facet of a political struggle in the present. That is, 'doubting' the numbers can be a way to attack a wide range of targets, to promote anti-semitism, or even rehabilitate fascism or nazi ideas or personalities. I'm suggesting that you are doing any of these things, merely explaining 'why holocaust revisionism' and not 'napoleon revisionism' - this political dimension of your position is something you need to acknowledge - again, i'm not accusing you, but you understand the very clear motives behind the selective 'revision' of this fact yes?

Also, I doubt anyone can show you a document which 'proves' that exactly 6 million jews were killed - but no one can show similar documents to 'prove' the vast majority of historical knowledge - black and white proofs is not what history entails. You're asking the impossible, our access to the past is extremely limited - rather, based on decades of research and a wealth of source material - the figure of 6 million is regarded as the most reasonable estimate by the vast majority of nazi/germany/holocaust/wwii/jewish history historians. If you wish to dispute this estimate, the evidence for which has had decades of peer review, by all means go ahead - i'm sure you're a capable expert in the field :confused:

[Killfacer]

Can you explain what you are trying to say? Because it seems like you have come just typed up a post which meanders about, at one point claiming that the holocaust wasn't that bad because not many people died and then pulling random numbers out of the air like 2 millions.

What are you trying to say?

As for the Swastika, everyone knows it was used by hindus orginally. That is now irrellevant. It symbolises genocide on a trully mind warping scale, tyranny and i for one despise it as much as it is possible to despise a symbol. Which is a lot.

[jasper23]

Hi all,

It's a sad thing that anybody would even try to deny the horrors of world war 2.It happened and I can't believe that people would try and say that it wasn't that bad because only 8 million or 6 million died.As far as I can see if ONE person dies unjustly then that is a catastophe.
But we must not justify the behaviour of modern day Isreal becuase of past horrors.
Racism is systematically practiced every day by the Isreali governement.They indulge in torture and murder.But like government all over the world,they are NOT EXPRESSING THE THOUGHTS AND VIEWS AND DESIRES of us ordinary Jewish folk...NO WAY.
And likewise I think this is the same the world over.
In the UK on the eve of the Iraqi invasion over a million people marched against the war,polls showed that 78% of the UK population did not want a war with Iraq...the government didn't even flinch.
The problem is that we are all born into a social system that through dictatorships or bogus democracies,gives a few people OBSCENE amounts of power and wealth.This is happening all over the world,and the world media works 24 hours a day to make that obscenity appear as natural as possible.
The fact that idiots come along and try to deny the holocaust does not suprise me at all.But I think their time would be better spent criticising modern Isreali governemnt,and indeed all world government.And perhaps work on finding a way of getting the power base in the hands of the ordinary people.

[Bud Struggle]

Let's not forget about Stalin's purges either, or the Holodomor, before you Communists get on your high horses and slander the political right.

Oh. I wondered what this thread was all about.

FWIW--counting the number of Jews murdered by the Nazis is not an exact science. But all you have to do is wander through Europe is see the extent of what the Jewish building and population was before the Nazis and then realize that the Jewish population is now almost nonexistant in large parts of Northern Europe and it's easty to extrapolate that millions and millions of Jews have been killed.

[Dimentio]

Holocaust - is the term generally used to describe the genocide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide) of approximately six million European Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew) during World War II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II), as part of a programme of deliberate extermination planned and executed by the National Socialist German Workers’ Party (Nazi) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party) regime in Germany led by Adolf Hitler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler). - Wikipedia.

The numbers of people that died including the homosexuals, gypsys, Polish people and more adds up to around 10 million. This is nowhere close to 12 million. I would also like to state that when the information was released 20 million jewish people had died, then 15, then 10, then 8, now 6. Eventually they will get their numbers straight.

Unless you want to throw in some of the Russian civilians and then you just broaden the definition to 16 - 17 million.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wsxmCTScCE&feature=related Check this link out.

It does'nt matter whether 1,5 million human beings or 6 million perished because of their ethnicity. It is still an enormous human tragedy. That Holocaust revisionists spend so much time arguing that 2 million or 3 million rather than 6 million were killed only shows that the revisionists lack empathy for the suffering of human beings.

Only the action of putting the Jews in ghettos and later in concentration camps is abhorrent.

What is your opinion on Hitler's regime, Anarch Mesa? What is it?

ANSWER!

[danyboy27]

if you put away the race factor here, its a mass killing anyway of 12 million peoples.
the swastika is not only tainted with the blood of jews, but with the blood of jipsies, political opponent, innocent civilian.

its really not important how much jews where amongst those 12 million peoples.
after that much death and carnage, you cant go back, you cant reclaim the symbol.

[Chapter 24]

if you put away the race factor here, its a mass killing anyway of 12 million peoples.
the swastika is not only tainted with the blood of jews, but with the blood of jipsies, political opponent, innocent civilian.

its really not important how much jews where amongst those 12 million peoples.
after that much death and carnage, you cant go back, you cant reclaim the symbol.

You're right on one end that it was a human tragedy and not specifically a Jewish one, but it's still largely important that the majority of victims were Jews for a reason. Of course the Gypsies, Slavs, Homosexuals, and other groups who were killed is just as tragic an instance, but there's a reason that 6 million of the victims were Jews. So saying it's "really not important how many Jews were amongst the 12 million people" is ignoring the history of the Third Reich prior to the Final Solution. Jews were the number one group targeted by the Nazis' campaign of terror and the majority of the Holocaust victims being Jewish reflects this.

[redSHARP]

next thing you know, he'll send a Stormfront link!:lol:

[Sendo]

so is this about how there's nothing wrong with the Indo-Aryan-European icon which had been used from Ireland to Greece to Persia to Mumbay and then via Buddhism throughout East and SouthEast Asia?

IF that was meant by the OP, okay...I feel the same way, it's just a cool symbol that spread among the tribes of Asia around the Caucuses I assume. And it sucks the Thelions and the Nazis ahd to tie with Nordic supremacy.

But what on earth does swastika symbol reclamation have to do with some anti-semitic crusade to minimize the Holocaust numbers? This is beyond coherency.

[Plagueround]

so is this about how there's nothing wrong with the Indo-Aryan-European icon which had been used from Ireland to Greece to Persia to Mumbay and then via Buddhism throughout East and SouthEast Asia?

IF that was meant by the OP, okay...I feel the same way, it's just a cool symbol that spread among the tribes of Asia around the Caucuses I assume. And it sucks the Thelions and the Nazis ahd to tie with Nordic supremacy.

But what on earth does swastika symbol reclamation have to do with some anti-semitic crusade to minimize the Holocaust numbers? This is beyond coherency.

This was split from another thread after it got turned into a bunch of holocaust denial bullshit. That's why it's a tad incoherent.

[Comrade Cuyler]

It does'nt matter whether 1,5 million human beings or 6 million perished because of their ethnicity. It is still an enormous human tragedy. That Holocaust revisionists spend so much time arguing that 2 million or 3 million rather than 6 million were killed only shows that the revisionists lack empathy for the suffering of human beings.

Exactly what I was thinking!

[The Feral Underclass]

The figure 6 million was given by Adolf Eichmann in his interrogation and his subsequent trial. Being the man responsible for all Jewish affairs throughout Europe and the main architect for the practical application of the final solution, including the organisation of the concentration of Jews and their consequent transportation throughout the entire camp system, he was singularly the most authoritative person on the subject. His department knew where every single detained Jew was at anytime and knew how many, when, in what capacity and for what purpose they were to be transported. Specifically how many Jews were sent to extermination camps. There really is no reason to dispute that fact unless you want to claim that Eichmann either did not give that figure or was coerced into providing it. Claims which are hard to prove considering he was recorded giving that statement. I've read an abridged version of the interrogation transcripts, which consisted of three hundred book bages, while in fact the actual interrogation transcripts were three thousand pages long and there was no evidence both in the recordings of his interrogation and the transcripts of any torture.

It's also important to remember that he wasn't captured until 1960 and so that figure was not commonly accepted until then. Any information published before that could well have varied in estimation and be a reason why there are so many different figures.

[The Feral Underclass]

Anarch_Masa, do you not have anything else to say?