'Communist'/'socialist' countries - Anyone live in one, or b

[Palmares]

Firstly, I want to note that these are so-called 'communist'/'socialist', some may be, some my not, I do not want an arguement over the definition here.

I have always heard millions of arguements about how good one of these countries are, how bad they are, etc.

I want to hear only from people who have been there. I take preference to people who live (or lived) there, and people who have visited are second preference.

The countries are : China; Vietnam; the DPRK; Cuba.

Also, if anyone wants to share their experience of former ones, feel free. But do not related the past ideology to the present, the past for the past, the present for the present.

Let the truth be known...

[Nobody]

Dhul, your time has come.

[beautifulthought]

I am a china girl.In my opinion,i live a better life.In big city like shanghai,everyone likes discuss money affairs.Everything a west youngster experienced I have all experience.I feel very happy in my life.But I know in my socity,many workers lost their jobs and suffered from the lack of money.

[CubanFox]

From what other Che-Lives posters say, China is just an oppressive capitalist country...but they could be wrong...

[Palmares]

I find it quite sad that virtually noone has come forward with any experiences. Perhaps we truly do know nothing, for there is no proof to think otherwise.

Thank you beautiful thought, at least somebody wants the truth know...

[Loknar]

I talked with a North Korean offical via e-mail for a few days. He is from and lives in Norway. He claims DPRK is paradise. Though he is very brainwashed. He sees the Pyongyang times as 'objective' news.

In my opinion the Cuban people are doing just fine considering they are under a US embargo. I know Castro-while limits freedoms of the people-is a concerned leader.

(Edited by Loknar at 6:13 am on June 30, 2003)


(Edited by Loknar at 6:17 am on June 30, 2003)

[notyetacommie]

I lived under Socialism 17 years out of 28. I described a lot of what it was like in other threads. I also visited China not long ago. It is now a thousand times more capitalist than the Soviet Union ever was. Yet, they didn't give in to the American culture, and I liked their TV programs a lot more than the ones we now have in Russia. I was amazed at the effectiveness of their construction units. On the whole, it seemed to me a more dynamic country than Russia or Germany. While there are still a lot of poor people, but I had a feeling that the government was trying hard to change things for the better. Shanghai is a beautiful city, beautifulthought. shanghai shi hen hao:)
I would really like to live there.

[Xprewatik RED]

Communism has only existed in words or in books. What has been seen in the Soviet Union or any of its other hideous creations area simply other ways of oppressing the people. The bourgiousie is replaced by government representves. Private factories once earning money for a bloodthirsty capitalist is handed over to the same man wearing a flag on his shirt. He preys on his comrade's patriotism in order to hold his power. Turning out lies through the media, brainwashing people in a way he deems correct. Elimination of minorities, and the real Communists becomes his only goal to survive. As time progresses his regime becomes more and more open to Western Capitalists as he becomes a buissness man. He draws himself as a hero at home and abroad he is nothing more than a corporate executive. I come from a Ukraine a nation long oppressed by Soviet brutallity. They killed 10million of my people in a year as we fought a gurrilla war against the Soviets and the Nazis. They turned Ukraine from Europes bread basket to a mere shadow of its former self. The Soviet Union began to fail as new leaders were more reluctant to murder millions of people. No longer would people be sent to Siberia, at least not in the the numbers of 19million, which is estimated. I am only 15 and haven't expireienced much of so called ,"communism", but i can promise you communism does not exist on Earth. Whether we will see it in our day, time can only tell. If you jugde China by Shanghai you are blind. Over 800million Chinese live below the poverty line. China is known for its corruption, as government officials turn state factories into the persoanl money makers. As Shanghai gets richer the rest of the coutnry suffers. The average man is oppressed and confused. Lied to constantly he can no longer tell what is the truth and what is a lie. It is a horrible feeling. There are hundreds of cities in China with populations over 500,000 you have never heard of lacking simple things such as water. China trying to help its people? ha! thats propganda, a simple manipulations of a persons mind. A few cities are good thus you believe the country is helping its poeple? China is currently murdering people in Xijijang because they want the areas oil! Helping their people?! Lies, China is a Capitalist dictatorship with power limited to few. Communism is not about governments. Its about a marxism and us teh people ruling ourselves and without materials.

(Edited by Xprewatik RED at 5:35 pm on June 30, 2003)

[antieverything]

...I've been to Canada!

Seriously, I don't think that China's system is a departure from socialism...it is a departure from Marxist/Leninist/Maoist ideas but as far as I'm concerned, that's a good thing. I have a lot of respect for the Chinese system...aside from the whole represive police state thing, the entire world could take a lesson from Chinese social pragmatism. It seems as if the entire system changes every 10 years. There also seems to be a lot of effort put into bringing rural incomes up to urban levels. While most people believe that China is in a state of transition from a planned economy to a modern free-market capitalist society, I see the reforms not as a journey but as the very essence of the system itself. China isn't, in my opinion, working towards emulating the west but instead towards establishing its own market-socialist system; a pragmatic system which I see as the very basis of what socialism should be--a system in which the state has the power to do what is in the best interests of the people whether it is called a "black cat" or a "white cat", communism or capitalism. Now all we need is civil liberties and democratization of the Communist Party (assuming a multi-party system is unworkable in the near future).

...that's what I gathered from reading all 300 pages of "China's New Political Economy" yesterday, anyway. The authors would disagree.

[notyetacommie]

Quote: from Xprewatik RED on 2:28 pm on June 30, 2003
Communism has only existed in words or in books.

If you argue with me on that, please note that I haven't even mentioned the word communism in my post. The USSR presented the first stage of transition to the communist society, namely- socialism. Hey, it was even named the Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics, not the Union of Soviet COMMUNIST Republics.

What has been seen in the Soviet Union or any of its other hideous creations area simply other ways of oppressing the people. The bourgiousie is replaced by government representves. Private factories once earning money for a bloodthirsty capitalist is handed over to the same man wearing a flag on his shirt.

Wrong. Most if not all of the former blood-thirsty capitalists were either executed, exiled to Siberia or forced to emigrate. The Soviet directors couldn't actually own the factory, they couldn't fire their workers (unless the latter committed any crime, of course), they couldn't stay in their position forever, their position didn't pass on to their children- should I name other differences as well?
Yes, the workers didn't get everything they earned- but in return, they had social security- they all had a job, free medicine, free education ( as well as their children, mate), very cheap transportation (for instance, now I can't afford to fly say to the Black Sea and back for vacation, although I work full time and often work long hours and my salary is considered higher than the average) and a whole lot of other benefits.

He preys on his comrade's patriotism in order to hold his power. Turning out lies through the media, brainwashing people in a way he deems correct. Elimination of minorities, and the real Communists becomes his only goal to survive. As time progresses his regime becomes more and more open to Western Capitalists as he becomes a buissness man. He draws himself as a hero at home and abroad he is nothing more than a corporate executive.

Are you sure you know what you are talking about here?


I come from a Ukraine a nation long oppressed by Soviet brutallity. They killed 10million of my people in a year as we fought a gurrilla war against the Soviets and the Nazis. They turned Ukraine from Europes bread basket to a mere shadow of its former self.

Now, that is what I would call being brainwashed. You say "we fought" although you are only 15 years old. You didn't fight anyone, my Ukrainian friend, you just didn't have a chance to. The Ukrainian nationalists actually fought the "communists and the Jews" http://xx.lipetsk.ru/txt/xx_21_02_17.shtml (sorry, it's in Russian, not in Ukrainian, but I would like to see your sorces - I am particularly interested to see the evidence that Bandera and his hangmen did actually fight Nazis)


The Soviet Union began to fail as new leaders were more reluctant to murder millions of people. No longer would people be sent to Siberia, at least not in the the numbers of 19million, which is estimated.

I live in Siberia, so what? I know it's common knowledge that Siberia is a land of terrible frost and totally unlivable, but that's simply not true. Both my mother's parents and my father's parents came here on their will, and, although they did experience some hardships, they were due to the WWII, as all the resources were allocated to the task of combating fascists and their allies Banderovstiv.
I am only 15 and haven't expireienced much of so called ,"communism", but i can promise you communism does not exist on Earth. Whether we will see it in our day, time can only tell. If you jugde China by Shanghai you are blind. Over 800million Chinese live below the poverty line. China is known for its corruption, as government officials turn state factories into the persoanl money makers. As Shanghai gets richer the rest of the coutnry suffers. The average man is oppressed and confused. Lied to constantly he can no longer tell what is the truth and what is a lie. It is a horrible feeling. There are hundreds of cities in China with populations over 500,000 you have never heard of lacking simple things such as water. China trying to help its people? ha! thats propganda, a simple manipulations of a persons mind. A few cities are good thus you believe the country is helping its poeple? China is currently murdering people in Xijijang because they want the areas oil! Helping their people?! Lies, China is a Capitalist dictatorship with power limited to few. Communism is not about governments. Its about a marxism and us teh people ruling ourselves and without materials.

(Edited by Xprewatik RED at 5:35 pm on June 30, 2003)

[notyetacommie]

Quote: from Xprewatik RED on 2:28 pm on June 30, 2003
Communism has only existed in words or in books.

If you argue with me on that, please note that I haven't even mentioned the word communism in my post. The USSR presented the first stage of transition to the communist society, namely- socialism. Hey, it was even named the Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics, not the Union of Soviet COMMUNIST Republics.

What has been seen in the Soviet Union or any of its other hideous creations area simply other ways of oppressing the people. The bourgiousie is replaced by government representves. Private factories once earning money for a bloodthirsty capitalist is handed over to the same man wearing a flag on his shirt.

Wrong. Most if not all of the former blood-thirsty capitalists were either executed, exiled to Siberia or forced to emigrate. The Soviet directors couldn't actually own the factory, they couldn't fire their workers (unless the latter committed any crime, of course), they couldn't stay in their position forever, their position didn't pass on to their children- should I name other differences as well?
Yes, the workers didn't get everything they earned- but in return, they had social security- they all had a job, free medicine, free education ( as well as their children, mate), very cheap transportation (for instance, now I can't afford to fly say to the Black Sea and back for vacation, although I work full time and often work long hours and my salary is considered higher than the average) and a whole lot of other benefits.

He preys on his comrade's patriotism in order to hold his power. Turning out lies through the media, brainwashing people in a way he deems correct. Elimination of minorities, and the real Communists becomes his only goal to survive. As time progresses his regime becomes more and more open to Western Capitalists as he becomes a buissness man. He draws himself as a hero at home and abroad he is nothing more than a corporate executive.

Are you sure you know what you are talking about here?


I come from a Ukraine a nation long oppressed by Soviet brutallity. They killed 10million of my people in a year as we fought a gurrilla war against the Soviets and the Nazis. They turned Ukraine from Europes bread basket to a mere shadow of its former self.

Now, that is what I would call being brainwashed. You say "we fought" although you are only 15 years old. You didn't fight anyone, my Ukrainian friend, you just didn't have a chance to. The Ukrainian nationalists actually fought the "communists and the Jews" http://xx.lipetsk.ru/txt/xx_21_02_17.shtml (sorry, it's in Russian, not in Ukrainian, but I would like to see your sorces - I am particularly interested to see the evidence that Bandera and his hangmen did actually fight Nazis)


The Soviet Union began to fail as new leaders were more reluctant to murder millions of people. No longer would people be sent to Siberia, at least not in the the numbers of 19million, which is estimated.

I live in Siberia, so what? I know it's common knowledge that Siberia is a land of terrible frost and totally unlivable, but that's simply not true. Both my mother's parents and my father's parents came here on their will, and, although they did experience some hardships, they were due to the WWII, as all the resources were allocated to the task of combating fascists and their allies Banderovstiv.

I am only 15 and haven't expireienced much of so called ,"communism", but i can promise you communism does not exist on Earth. Whether we will see it in our day, time can only tell.

That's a very unusual promise, you know.



If you jugde China by Shanghai you are blind. Over 800million Chinese live below the poverty line. China is known for its corruption, as government officials turn state factories into the persoanl money makers. As Shanghai gets richer the rest of the coutnry suffers. The average man is oppressed and confused. Lied to constantly he can no longer tell what is the truth and what is a lie. It is a horrible feeling. There are hundreds of cities in China with populations over 500,000 you have never heard of lacking simple things such as water. China trying to help its people? ha! thats propganda, a simple manipulations of a persons mind. A few cities are good thus you believe the country is helping its poeple? China is currently murdering people in Xijijang because they want the areas oil! Helping their people?! Lies, China is a Capitalist dictatorship with power limited to few.

I didn't say China was truely socialist. In fact, I stated the opposite. Your English is fairly good for a 15 year-old, but I guess you still need to practise it to learn how to read what is actually written.

I visited Beijing, Shengyan, Ningbo and Hangzhou, not just Shanghai. I know these are big cities, and there are other cities that are worse, but I didn't state China eliminated poverty or something of the kind.


Communism is not about governments. Its about a marxism and us teh people ruling ourselves and without materials.

Without materials? What do you mean?

(Edited by Xprewatik RED at 5:35 pm on June 30, 2003)

[beautifulthought]

In fact,my family was a victim of Mao.My grandpa joined the china communist in his 20,when the anti-japanese war broke out.In that time,he pretended to be a postman of the invader authority.He often bravely
post revolutinary post in walls in night,and cooperate with his comrades in sending information.And he also worked for the Guoming Party.But that experience became his evidence of a reactionary.In 1957,Mao began to strike "right" intellectual.In that year,my grandpa maybe said something the party couldnt bore,
so he was caught into prison for 15 ten years.He is a brave intellectual like Winston,the character of <1984>,unwilling to give up his stand.Thus our family became black(in that year it means reactionary) family.In the great culture revolutinary,the member of my family was considered untouchable.Eventually,my grandpa died of liver cancer in prison,without any treatment.Hearing the news,my grandma fainted.She always miss him,and tell me a lot about him.In the day my grandpa died of every year,she cant heip crying.

Thanks to deng xiaoping,in the days he controlled the country,he liberated a lot of political prisoner.So is my family.

Thanks to Xiaoping's economic policy,my father open a electronic company,in bolsheviks opinion,he is a capitalist.But I still believe the
utopia ideal because I have seen a lot of injustice.

[TXsocialist]

I am no maoist, and your grandpa sounds like a man I'd like to share a beer with! :)

[notyetacommie]

I am going on a two-day visit to Beijing in a couple of days. Is there anything I can look for in particular?

[Liberty Lover]

Quote: from Cthenthar on 10:35 am on June 27, 2003

The countries are : China; Vietnam; the DPRK; Cuba.

You forgot Laos, comrade.

[Palmares]

Quote: from Liberty Lover on 7:52 pm on July 4, 2003

Quote: from Cthenthar on 10:35 am on June 27, 2003

The countries are : China; Vietnam; the DPRK; Cuba.

You forgot Laos, comrade.

Why don't you just say Cambodia while you are at it?

[Liberty Lover]

Quote: from Cthenthar on 2:05 am on July 9, 2003

Why don't you just say Cambodia while you are at it?

Because Cambodia isn't communist anymore and Laos still is.

[Nick Yves]

What about Moldova?

[Palmares]

Quote: from Liberty Lover on 2:53 pm on July 9, 2003

Quote: from Cthenthar on 2:05 am on July 9, 2003

Why don't you just say Cambodia while you are at it?

Because Cambodia isn't communist anymore and Laos still is.


If I am sticking by your 'bizarro :o world' definitions, how about some African countries? They are 'socialist'.

Libya, Ethiopia, Mozambique, Tanzania, etc.

Think about it...

(Edited by Cthenthar at 11:41 am on July 10, 2003)

[Liberty Lover]

Cthen,
Laos is a full-fledged communist country, unlike those just mentioned by you.

It has a red flag, it's ruled by the dictatorial Revolutionary People's Party of Laos, and it contains all the usual features of communism like the subordination of all social, political, economic, intellectual, cultural, and spiritual activities to the purposes of the ruling party.

(Edited by Liberty Lover at 2:31 am on July 10, 2003)

[Palmares]

LL,

so...

You like Qaddafi then?

[Liberty Lover]

No. Do you want to tell me how you came to that conclusion?

[elijahcraig]

Well, considering the US dropped more bombs on Laos then France and Germany during WWII, I don't think Laos could be doing much better. I'd be surprised if that country does anything past a dictatorship for the next 5-100 years.

[elijahcraig]

50-100 sorry.

[Palmares]

Quote: from Liberty Lover on 4:19 pm on July 10, 2003
No. Do you want to tell me how you came to that conclusion?


From the 'spherical implosion' theory

[antieverything]

Well, Cambodia really doesn't have much of a government at all...the CamComs control little more than the capital city...which is the most capitalist part of the country!

[Urban Rubble]

My girlfriend is Cambodian, she was born there but doesn't remember any of it. That's all I have to offer on that.

I just wanted to say to Liberty Lover, the reason these countries have to be so repressive is because they failed to follow what Marx said. Communism is an evolution that would take place over many generations. You cannot expect to have a revolution, and then POOF everyone is a happy communist. You have to teach people over time, you have to teach them to make sacrifices for the greater good.

Just my 2 cents.

[Felicia]

um, how did this thread end up in OI? I didn't notice that it was moved :confused:

[apathy maybe]

Laos is a full-fledged communist country ... It has a red flag, it's ruled by the dictatorial Revolutionary People's Party of Laos, and it contains all the usual features of communism like the subordination of all social, political, economic, intellectual, cultural, and spiritual activities to the purposes of the ruling party.

Really LL I think that you should go and look up the definiton of Communism at http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...um=13&topic=895 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=13&topic=895)

Apparently Australia is the fourth best place to live (after Norway, Sweden and Iceland). But I would say not if you are an aboriginal. This survey would I assume be studying capitilist ideals such as how much money people earn as well as how long people live. Can't remember who put it how though.

[Liberty Lover]

Really LL I think that you should go and look up the definiton of Communism

How very pedantic of you. I’m fully aware that the Communist society envisioned by Marx would arise only once the dictatorship of the proletariat, having eliminated all remnants of the bourgeoisie, was no longer needed and the state withered away. But as Marx’s theory has never, will never and can never progress beyond the dictatorship I simply refer to any Marxist experiment by the definition the majority of people give to them, "communist". However, just to please your finicky arse I will consider being more specific in future.


Apparently Australia is the fourth best place to live (after Norway, Sweden and Iceland). But I would say not if you are an aboriginal. This survey would I assume be studying capitilist ideals such as how much money people earn as well as how long people live. Can't remember who put it how though.

It’s odd of you to bring this up in a thread about communist countries. Nonetheless, I think you’ll find that Australian law in no way discriminates against indigenous citizens. On the contrary, as a result of those ridiculous affirmative action schemes, Aboriginals receive numerous benefits that the rest of us do not. It seems that people like you think Aboriginals are inferior to us and require government handouts to survive. We have to think of aboriginals like seagulls in the park, if we give the gulls food they hang around and wait for more, rather than venturing out and finding it for themselves. The same is for Aboriginals (and any other dole bludgers for that matter), if we give them handouts they are just going to wait around for the next one instead of getting a job and earning money for themselves.

(Edited by Liberty Lover at 12:57 am on July 14, 2003)

[Palmares]

Okay, I need to be serious now.

This thread is not about the definition of communism, rather the experiences of countries that have claimed such a doctrine.

Sorry about before LL, I was a dick. Laos could be included in this thread, but the sources I have searched on Laos are inconclusive. The CIA and another site call Laos communist, but most others call it semi-socialist.

[B] NOW BACK ON THE TOPIC!!!

[Jesus Christ]

two years ago, my father and I traveled to Cuba from Toronto for business
we arrived in Havana and from there traveled to Camaguey
from the moment we arrived the people were so friendly and made us feel at home
cuba is a natural wonderland
the ride to Camaguey was very cushey and the towns seemed very developed and slums almost non existent
cuba isnt a place you can interpret from books or television
the only way to fully understand and appreciate cuba and its politics is to visit
we had to leave after two days, but the visit was very nice

[Liberty Lover]

two years ago, my father and I traveled to Cuba from Toronto for business

Why the fuck would you travel to a communist country for business!?

Your post smells like a rotten lie to me.

[Sabocat]

I don't think Canadian companies are restricted from doing business with Cuba. They are also able to freely travel to Cuba.

Canada is unencumbered by the rediculous U$ embargo.

[Felicia]

you're right, we can have any relationship with Cuba that we'd like :)

and we like :cheesy:

[notyetacommie]

Quote: from Liberty Lover on 6:43 am on July 14, 2003

two years ago, my father and I traveled to Cuba from Toronto for business

Why the fuck would you travel to a communist country for business!?

Your post smells like a rotten lie to me.


Your post just smells rotten

[Jesus Christ]

Quote: from Liberty Lover on 9:43 am on July 14, 2003

two years ago, my father and I traveled to Cuba from Toronto for business

Why the fuck would you travel to a communist country for business!?

Your post smells like a rotten lie to me.


to be more precise, family business
sorry
people DO die

(Edited by Primus32302 at 11:59 pm on July 14, 2003)

[antieverything]

Still, there are some very lucrative joint-venture opportunities in Cuba that American companies are being deprived of.

[Saint-Just]

Quote: from beautifulthought on 12:30 pm on July 1, 2003
In fact,my family was a victim of Mao.My grandpa joined the china communist in his 20,when the anti-japanese war broke out.In that time,he pretended to be a postman of the invader authority.He often bravely
post revolutinary post in walls in night,and cooperate with his comrades in sending information.And he also worked for the Guoming Party.But that experience became his evidence of a reactionary.In 1957,Mao began to strike "right" intellectual.In that year,my grandpa maybe said something the party couldnt bore,
so he was caught into prison for 15 ten years.He is a brave intellectual like Winston,the character of <1984>,unwilling to give up his stand.Thus our family became black(in that year it means reactionary) family.In the great culture revolutinary,the member of my family was considered untouchable.Eventually,my grandpa died of liver cancer in prison,without any treatment.Hearing the news,my grandma fainted.She always miss him,and tell me a lot about him.In the day my grandpa died of every year,she cant heip crying.

Thanks to deng xiaoping,in the days he controlled the country,he liberated a lot of political prisoner.So is my family.

Thanks to Xiaoping's economic policy,my father open a electronic company,in bolsheviks opinion,he is a capitalist.But I still believe the
utopia ideal because I have seen a lot of injustice.


There was much political intrigue surrounding the 'Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution'. That is to say it was not simply Mao that orchestrated it.

Your story is truly tragic, but like every story from the GPCR it is likely that those who were responsible were the Red Guard and certain other Chinese officials not taking direct orders from Mao.

Indeed, in much of this period Mao was growing very old and became inapable or ruling the country. Much of the information given to him in this period by certain advisors was false, since he was at an age and losing his mental health that they could easily manipulate him and make sure they were the only ones to have communication with him.

Your father fought for the ideals that Mao Zedong realised and expounded to create an independant China. So surely that is worth something.

Deng Xiaoping, who you mentioned, was also imprisoned for 2 years during the GPCR.

[Palmares]

Well, I am disappointed with the input of this topic, so I might aswell put in my 50 cents.

I have a frind who is from China, an exchange student. He is sort of commie and I asked him about China. He said it wasn't that bad, he lived in the third biggest city, starts with X? Anyway, he said virtually noone vocally had any oppostion to the 'communist' regime, except this one guy who hated it, and was a extreme capitalist, he loved the US.

Things are probably pretty different now though.

[Neo Marx]

no one has mentioned anything about Sweden. They are not completely Socialist, but close to it. And I have talked to Swedes and they like it quite a bit. correct me if I am wrong.

[blackemma]

I know people who have lived in Sweden and who have travelled there as well as close family friends who lived in the USSR and have another family friend who used to live in Cuba.

I wouldn't call Sweden "socialist", per se. Rather, I would call it social-democrat, in the new sense of the word, not the social-democracy that Lenin or Luxemburg spoke of. Nonetheless, the Swedish system is one of the more progressive systems in Europe. Most of the profits derive from the private sector, but the government has intervened and even nationalized certain portions of the economy during rough times. From what I heard from a Swedish friend of mine, the Swedish economy is being opened to neo-liberal reforms in attempt to balance their budget, which runs regular deficits under the social democrats.

My friends who visited Cuba also had highly favourable remarks: that it was beautiful, clean, and liveable. To be fair, they also remarked that there was significant poverty in the land, especially when one travelled outside Havana. The family friend I spoke of, who lived there, is a staunch anti-Castroist. While he's a fiscal conservative, he makes a strong case against human rights abuses in Cuba. Much of the alledged hype over the Cuban system is propaganda, from what I can tell. For instance, while they have virtually eliminated illiteracy, poverty is significant and the medical service is often overated. In a country like the United States, the idea of a universal healthcare system may sound appealing, and indeed it should, but better systems have been produced in predominately capitalist nations such as Canada, or Sweden, which are universal and the nations which administer them also have balanced budgets (Canada under the Chretien government).

Lastly, the Soviet Union, from what I've heard, was a living hell. This comes from numerous people who have lived there as well as people who came from Czechoslovakia. The system was a corrupt, bureaucratic nightmare in which a system of tyranny was imposed upon the people, eliminating freedom of speech, and setting records for human rights abuses.

Not my account, but it might help.

(Edited by blackemma at 9:43 pm on July 25, 2003)

[Palmares]

Quote: from blackemma on 9:33 pm on July 25, 2003

I wouldn't call Sweden "socialist", per se. Rather, I would call it social-democrat, in the new sense of the word, not the social-democracy that Lenin or Luxemburg spoke of. Nonetheless, the Swedish system is one of the more progressive systems in Europe. Most of the profits derive from the private sector, but the government has intervened and even nationalized certain portions of the economy during rough times. From what I heard from a Swedish friend of mine, the Swedish economy is being opened to neo-liberal reforms in attempt to balance their budget, which runs regular deficits under the social democrats.


Do you mean like Germany? Like Gerard Schoeder's Social-Democrats?