Price control? Does it fit with communism?

[kelvin]

I know the free market point of view regarding price control. What is the communist take on price control?

[Vinny Rafarino]

You are going to have to clarify your question Kelvin.

If you want a communist's take on price control in general you are going to get a very short answer.
As communism does not rely on profit and loss there is no need for price control.

You must clarify the economic policy you want a comment on...State Capitalism, Market Socialism....etc.

[kelvin]

I begg to differ. The Soviets were notorious for fixing prices: appartments, cars, bread, milk, cheese, etc.

Free market experiments in the USA 1970s to control inflation with price controls forever soured the idea of government controlled prices for USA economist. The Harvard MBA philosophy of price control is to aviod it. There are price controls in the USA too: New York rent control, milk, sugar, etc. Universally economist agree that they should go away and are very very "B" "A" "D".

State capitalism and Market socialism all have one thing in common. More bureaucratic control than a free market. Bureaucratic control vs free market value, that is the major difference of capitalism and what ever flavor of communism you perscribe.

The Soviets were definately State Capitalist and they fixed prices.
http://www.marxists.de/statecap/binns/statecap.htm

Profit and loss? Then what is the measure of economic viability for a state owned company? There must be some measure. If a coal mine is not profitable in a free market it goes out of business. There must be some indicator for a communist system to measure the viability of a coal mine.

When you measure viability with money, raw materials and labor with a value come in one door of a factory. Finished goods of another value leave. The factory is viable if the net is a profit. What is the indicator in a communist system for factory viability?

[UnionofSovietSocialistRepublics]

I think external trading would be the thing mostly affected, internal would be more on a needs basis. Things such as tariffs can be imposed, but again that would only really suit a capitalist society. It is quite a compliacted issue, and proably would depend up on the situation, so there is no one answer.

[kelvin]

Quote: from El Marko on 4:07 pm on June 27, 2003
I think external trading would be the thing mostly affected, internal would be more on a needs basis. Things such as tariffs can be imposed, but again that would only really suit a capitalist society. It is quite a compliacted issue, and proably would depend up on the situation, so there is no one answer.

So then how does a communist system deal with external trade without money? Please eloborate. I have time. If not please provide correct subect where I can go off and research myself.

You also need to be able to measure cost effectiveness internally. By what ever index you use to measure the viability of a factory, you must know if it is efficient.

If your building a house with brick. What is the cost of using brick to build the house? In a capitalist system you measure brick cost with money. It is important to know the cost of it. If plywood and drywall cost less. You build with plywood and drywall. Too continue to build with more expensive materials is a drain and wastefull even in a communist society. What is the index of economic effectivness for a factory in a communist system? Even if you make exactly all the brick you consume in a communist sytem. Your still wasting economy if the brick is more expensive than plywood. You don't know if your wasting economy unless you can measure the cost effectivness with an index. What is the index in a communist sytem?

(Edited by kelvin at 4:39 pm on June 27, 2003)

[Vinny Rafarino]

Beg all you want 90210. I'm sure you are used to it.

The soviets in the 70's were not a communist country.

[kelvin]

Quote: from COMRADE RAF on 7:13 pm on June 27, 2003
Beg all you want 90210. I'm sure you are used to it.

The soviets in the 70's were not a communist country.

Ok never mind the Soviets. How does a communist system measure economy and not be wastefull in labor, material, and effort?

[Som]

Ok never mind the Soviets. How does a communist system measure economy and not be wastefull in labor, material, and effort?

Use, need, want, effect

Nothing all too complicated, no maths, no turning people into numbers, just little human interactions.

[Vinny Rafarino]

If you're trying to stump some underage communists you're doing a horrible job.

BoyKKKelvin90210,

In a communist society production is guaged by need not profit. There is no concern over national economy as the society is not driven by scratch. Your question does not make sense. Please review communist policies before you post this drivel. You think you would know after this long being here.

Now, if you want to make some sense, ask how socialist countries that adopt a capitalist economic platform fit into your model.

Like I said before BoyKKKelvin90210 the Engineer, I would not allow you to engineer my dick from my keks mate, no matter how pretty you looked after 18 lagers.

[kelvin]

Quote: from COMRADE RAF on 5:33 am on June 28, 2003
If you're trying to stump some underage communists you're doing a horrible job.

BoyKKKelvin90210,

In a communist society production is guaged by need not profit. There is no concern over national economy as the society is not driven by scratch. Your question does not make sense. Please review communist policies before you post this drivel. You think you would know after this long being here.

Now, if you want to make some sense, ask how socialist countries that adopt a capitalist economic platform fit into your model.

Like I said before BoyKKKelvin90210 the Engineer, I would not allow you to engineer my dick from my keks mate, no matter how pretty you looked after 18 lagers.

I need to build a homes for 1 million people. Do I use brick, plywood, or drywall? That is my question. The cost effient home that I build for 1 million people allows me to save economy and use it for food production or other economic needs. If you don't know your economic impact for which material to use, then your wastefully using economy and don't even know it.

How do you deal with the shame of making less money than me?

[Vinny Rafarino]

You have no idea how much money I have in the first place son. Secondly, what does that have to do with anything at all?

Pathetic KKKelvin.

[Guest1]

Kelvin, if you are talking about a communist society, it is one that exists beyond the paper world. Communism is for people who want a concrete, humane society. One free of the artificial restraints of man-made economic "laws". Few communists advocate a quick transition of any one country to pure communism. Until the majority of the world is progressing on the same path, to attempt to revolt against the rediculous abstractions of capitalism completely would be suicide for any nation. A country would basically be running off to the forest to build a commune if they did that, isolated forever and likely to be obliterated.

But if enough countries begin to move that way, who's gonna be there to force these stupidities onto them? They would be free to distribute their resources as they please. Thus, your question is flawed.

[Som]

I need to build a homes for 1 million people. Do I use brick, plywood, or drywall? That is my question. The cost effient home that I build for 1 million people allows me to save economy and use it for food production or other economic needs.

Whats easier to get? What do you want to make it out of? Whats in the area of where your building homes?

That's all you need to figure it out.

and whether you choose drywall or brick, it has shit all to do with food production.

You really can't seem to grasp the concept of a monetaryless society, Instead all your questions act like its a monetary society that just happens to not have any money.

If you don't know your economic impact for which material to use, then your wastefully using economy and don't even know it.

And we don't even care. If it bothers someone I would think they'd just let you know.

[kidicarus20]

Price controls are better than no price controls of course.

This isn't communism, it's "advanced capitalism".

In capitalism, minimum wage laws, overtime price controls, distribution of wealth, welfare, etc... all help better the standards of living for americans and not make them slaves for the corporations.

free-marketeers and republicans want people to slave for corporations 14-15 hours a day.

[kelvin]

Quote: from COMRADE RAF on 2:01 am on June 29, 2003
You have no idea how much money I have in the first place son. Secondly, what does that have to do with anything at all?

Pathetic KKKelvin.


If you don't know your wasting economy then other portions of an economy that need development are going without.

Are yout admitting that you are part of an elite class? That is perfectly OK. Engles was elite. Marx exploited his maid

[kelvin]

Quote: from Che y Marijuana on 7:28 am on June 29, 2003
Kelvin, if you are talking about a communist society, it is one that exists beyond the paper world. Communism is for people who want a concrete, humane society. One free of the artificial restraints of man-made economic "laws". Few communists advocate a quick transition of any one country to pure communism. Until the majority of the world is progressing on the same path, to attempt to revolt against the rediculous abstractions of capitalism completely would be suicide for any nation. A country would basically be running off to the forest to build a commune if they did that, isolated forever and likely to be obliterated.

But if enough countries begin to move that way, who's gonna be there to force these stupidities onto them? They would be free to distribute their resources as they please. Thus, your question is flawed.


Commrades I can not believe you keep forgetting small communes. They exist everywhere and do quite well considering social and economies problems. That is your concrete real world application. You should do better commrades to learn more about communism.

[Guest1]

they do well in the short term, but break apart because of the pressures of the society they exist in and government interference. I was trying to make a point, my point is that you must start moving in the direction of the whole world throwing away money. but right now, if I ran out and threw away the little money I have, I wouldn't get anywhere. If I waited till the majority did too, no one would care anymore about it, and we'd all live healthy lives. Get it? K, now apply that to the countries of the world.

(Edited by Che y Marijuana at 2:56 am on June 30, 2003)

[kelvin]

Quote: from Che y Marijuana on 7:56 am on June 30, 2003
they do well in the short term, but break apart because of the pressures of the society they exist in and government interference. I was trying to make a point, my point is that you must start moving in the direction of the whole world throwing away money. but right now, if I ran out and threw away the little money I have, I wouldn't get anywhere. If I waited till the majority did too, no one would care anymore about it, and we'd all live healthy lives. Get it? K, now apply that to the countries of the world.

(Edited by Che y Marijuana at 2:56 am on June 30, 2003)


Forget the money. It is about the economy. The economy is a finte resource. When building homes is wasting economic effort, other parts of the economy must compensate. There is not such thing as infite economic capacity. If effort is wasted building homes, then others must suffer lack of effort. Parts of the economy that may suffer are: road building and maintanence, food production, energy exploration, etc.

You must move away from the perception that wasted economic effort can be absorbed by other parts of the sytem.

[Vinny Rafarino]

They would suffer under a capitalist economy KKKelvin. You have no capacity for non-linear thought. COMMUNISM IS NOT BURDENED WITH YOUR PETTY BOURGOISE CONCEPTS OF MONEY. COST DOES NOT MATTER. IF IT IS BROKEN IT GETS FIXED. IF IT NEEDS TO BE BUILT THEN IT IS ERECTED. IT IS NOT A CAPITAL DRIVEN GOVERNMENT. PLEASE BE QUIET NOW.

[Som]

You must move away from the perception that wasted economic effort can be absorbed by other parts of the sytem.

ah what silly notions of trade and markets. We're getting rid of those remember?

This interconnected nonsense refers to use of little pieces of paper determining distribution, without that its simply not interconnected. No matter if we use wasteful drywall, the farmer will still produce the same amount of food, and the same amount of people will want to eat it.

You've yet to show us otherwise

[notyetacommie]

There's common sense, kelvin. Would you be living in a plywood house somewhere in Siberia even if it was a thousand times cheaper than a brick house to build?

[Ghost Writer]

Ok never mind the Soviets. How does a communist system measure economy and not be wastefull in labor, material, and effort?

Kelvin, I have posed this question a number of times, never to get a good answer. In short, this minor oversight is one of the main reasons communism doesn't work.


Use, need, want, effect

Nothing all too complicated, no maths, no turning people into numbers, just little human interactions.

This is not even an answer to the question. It is just pie in the sky stupidity. Will your need produce the food you need moron? Try running an economy with no numbers and math. I can't believe someone could be so dense.



ah what silly notions of trade and markets. We're getting rid of those remember?

This interconnected nonsense refers to use of little pieces of paper determining distribution, without that its simply not interconnected. No matter if we use wasteful drywall, the farmer will still produce the same amount of food, and the same amount of people will want to eat it.

You've yet to show us otherwise

No, communism does not do away with markets, or money.

Even bottom feeding communists recognize that markets distribute goods, and that money acts as the most efficient medium of exchange. The problem lies in their desire to have full control over these systems in order to "equalize" its citizens. Trying to leash a market system and its currency distorts the healthy operation of markets, and results in a hideous mutation, where distribution, quality, and quantity of goods and services are affected negatively.

[Guest1]

that's under pussy-ass-quasi-fascist-state-capitalism, not communism. Communsim DOES do away with money and markets. that's the point. All the dickheads pretending to be Communists who have gotten into power thus far have tried to leash it, when they should have taken that mutherfucker out back and shot it like old yeller.

[Guest1]

and kelvin, this is what you need to read to understand why economic measures and market forces don't apply when there is no market:

The Myth Of Scarcity (http://www.worldsocialism.org/whatis.htm)

[Xprewatik RED]

Money is an item of capitalism. It is what creates class distinctions. In a Communist society, everything is oriented to the population. If the population increases than more homes are built. The resource that fits the area, and is the most ample in numbers is used. A farmer's produce goes to the community, and everyone gets an equal amount. Once greed is elminated, than this system is possible. There are no prices, thus there is nothing to be regulated. Also in true Communism men rule themselves, so there is noone to place these price controls. Socialist economies place price control. Communist economies, are meant to be self-sufficient and contained to other Communist based economies. A need based economy cannont trade with a money based economy.

[Sandanista]

In proper communist society there is no money anyway, its whats needed and whats needed to do it, not how economical it is to do it

[Ghost Writer]

Please show me were it says, in communist theory, that the monetary system should be abolished. What do you plan to replace it with, and why should I expect this to create anything other than wide-spread pandemonium.

[kelvin]

Quote: from Che y Marijuana on 11:29 am on July 2, 2003
and kelvin, this is what you need to read to understand why economic measures and market forces don't apply when there is no market:

The Myth Of Scarcity (http://www.worldsocialism.org/whatis.htm)


It was a well thought out philosophy, but there is no economic research. Your link is a philisophical statement not an economic analysis.

[kelvin]

Quote: from notyetacommie on 9:25 am on July 2, 2003
There's common sense, kelvin. Would you be living in a plywood house somewhere in Siberia even if it was a thousand times cheaper than a brick house to build?




You can not make that kind of common sense decision in a communist system. You can not even begin to make a common sense decision unless you can measure or take an index of the economic impact of building a house with plywood. In a communist system you have NO way of measuring economic impact or an index that will tell you the impact of your decisions.

A thousand times cheaper? How do you know? In a communist system you don't.

[notyetacommie]

That's why I actually wouldn't bother counting the cost- I could measure the distance from the nearest clay deposite and the nearest plywood-making plant. I would count workforce expences in terms of the number of people needed to get the work done and the amount of time it will take in both cases. I would also measure the temperature outside to decide what material is more reasonable to build from in this specific location.

[Kapitan Andrey]

Controling the prices is bad to economy!!!
Market economy is the only way of sucsess!!!

[kelvin]

Quote: from notyetacommie on 2:56 am on July 3, 2003
That's why I actually wouldn't bother counting the cost- I could measure the distance from the nearest clay deposite and the nearest plywood-making plant. I would count workforce expences in terms of the number of people needed to get the work done and the amount of time it will take in both cases. I would also measure the temperature outside to decide what material is more reasonable to build from in this specific location.


Again you are making a good guess. A guess is not the same a solid decision based on counting or an index. Eventhough it is a good guess, you really don't know if you are right.

[kelvin]

Quote: from Kapitan Andrey on 4:01 am on July 3, 2003

Controling the prices is bad to economy!!!
Market economy is the only way of sucsess!!!


Altough I agree with your first line.

Prove to me your second line. Unless you prove it is just propoganda.

[Kapitan Andrey]

My 2nd line is an AXIOM!!! :wink:

No, I mean really! What do you suggest!?

[notyetacommie]

A guess? In my example I measured MEASURABLE things, while you will have to count the market value of things, which is never constant. It is you who will be making a guess. You won't be able to rely on counting and index in the time of,say, inflation, will you? While the distance will always be the distance, and the amount of work to be done will also remain constant.

[Guest1]

kelvin, you're looking for concrete answers, which we can't give you. no one here is a fortune teller. but we all agree that it is more important to live with equality and have to constantly tinker to stabilize it than to have profitable oppression. I do see your point, but I still believe that it is a case of apples and oranges. You're asking us how we're going to grow apples, but we're planning for oranges. But time will tell.

[Som]

This is not even an answer to the question. It is just pie in the sky stupidity. Will your need produce the food you need moron? Try running an economy with no numbers and math. I can't believe someone could be so dense.

Ah, insults really do make your case for you. Its especially nice how you simply REFUSE to deal with the definition being used here, instead going on so we're not even talking about the same thing.

That 'will your need to produce the food you need moron?' is quite a nice touch, great to end an almost incoherent question by calling the other person a moron, bravo.

No, communism does not do away with markets, or money.

Even bottom feeding communists recognize that markets distribute goods, and that money acts as the most efficient medium of exchange. The problem lies in their desire to have full control over these systems in order to "equalize" its citizens. Trying to leash a market system and its currency distorts the healthy operation of markets, and results in a hideous mutation, where distribution, quality, and quantity of goods and services are affected negatively.

Communism does away with money and markets.

The context communism has been used throughout this entire thread is that communism is a classless, therefore monetaryless and stateless society.

We're not talking about the soviet union and centralized command economies. We're talking about a theoretical society that hasn't existed on any large scale.

Of course, while we're at it, a society that at large, doesn't give a shit about efficiency for the sake of efficiency.

Please show me were it says, in communist theory, that the monetary system should be abolished. What do you plan to replace it with, and why should I expect this to create anything other than wide-spread pandemonium.

"from each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs"

Replace it? why would we do that? Usually a democratic gift economy. Localized consumer and producer councils, bottom-up and federated organization, so on.

Pandemonium? why would that happen, this isn't something thats going to be done at gunpoint, its going to be put in place by the people working it.

(Edited by Som at 9:41 pm on July 3, 2003)

[Vinny Rafarino]

Fine Kelvin. You want numbers? Here's a link to Comrade Lenin's "on the so-called market question"

http://www.marx2mao.org/Lenin/MQ93.html

After review if you hit me with that "it was penned in the 1800's" shite I will be forced to go out of my way to find you simply to slap you around.

[Guest1]

link doesn't work

[notyetacommie]

It does... for me, at least

[kelvin]

Quote: from Che y Marijuana on 8:23 pm on July 3, 2003
kelvin, you're looking for concrete answers, which we can't give you. no one here is a fortune teller. but we all agree that it is more important to live with equality and have to constantly tinker to stabilize it than to have profitable oppression. I do see your point, but I still believe that it is a case of apples and oranges. You're asking us how we're going to grow apples, but we're planning for oranges. But time will tell.



Time has already been telling for the last 10-15 years. The Soviet bloc is gone. China is becomming more like Hong Kong. Castro can not live forever. Korea, well Kim is the living human form of the son of God on Earth (or at least is Bio says so), so communism must be right.

[notyetacommie]

And your country has only been around for 300 years- so its existence doesn't prove anything.

The Soviet block isn't gone... There still are people who would like to come back to good old socialism. The fact that your allies France, Germany, and Sweden have in power parties that at least have the word "Socialist" in their names shows that people tend to consider socialism as something better for their societies. I know they are not socialist enough. Nothing new comes at once. But I think it's the idea people vote for, not just political figures.

You may have to add Lula Da Silva and Hugo Chavez.

Besides, the US has had to screw a lot of other nations who wanted to be socialist- I guess once your domination- which is mostly military, - is rooted out, you will see that the countries will be far more prosperous than they have ever been (try not to compare it with your own life style- as much of the money that you have is blood money, and you know it)

[HankMorgan]

I like to debate the commies on this site because they are intelligent but wrong which makes them great sparring partners. My goal is to not be abusive, not be condesending and to use $2 dollar words not $10 words wherever possible. My intent is to ask questions and create situations that show why communism can't possibly work.

After reading this thread, I must take my hat off and pay homage to kelvin. Kelvin does what I aspire to do far better than I ever will. Well done sir!

[notyetacommie]

It ain't over till it's over. Political dissolving of the Soviet Union, Yeltsin's shooting at the mostly communist Congress of People's Deputies, CIA's underhand tricks with elections in Bulgaria and Hungary have nothing to do with economic viability. Will you argue that?