MIM bash revleft

[RGacky3]

Before I start this, I am convinced that MIM base their organization on the bad guys in old James bond movies, their whole organization is just a couple schizofrenic collage guys with an inflated sense of self-importance, these guys make other Maoists like the RCP look reasonable (although I opppose the RPC because of their personality cult and maoist ideas, I have to give it to them that they do organize the grass roots here in LA quite well, they are not arm chair revolutionaries.) The MIM on the other hand is completely out of it. Anyway here it is http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/wim/wyl/socdem/revleftpatriotism0108.html


Amerikanism with quotes from revleft.com, a patriotic youth group of the imperialist countries masquerading as "revolutionary left."

A "patriotic youth group," its a discussion forum!!!


de facto patriotism in the imperialist countries and how that patriotism warps the information imperialist country youth feed to other Third World bourgeois youth with Internet access.

THere is no such think as de facto patriotism, thats like de facto racism or de facto sadness, its rediculous.


FACT: At this moment, Osama Bin Laden enjoys a 46% approval rating in Pakistan, compared with the 34% of the president, Musharaff. Bush's approval rate in Pakistan is 9%.(3) Pakistan's population is approximately 165 million, which means there is an eight-digit figure of Pakistan's people alone that approve of Bin Laden. By comparison, the combined socialists and communists in the united $tates, including all the ideologies seen at revleft.com plus the ones they banned would be less than 100,000 people, a five-digit figure. So as a matter of fact, we can equate Al Qaeda to the working class of Pakistan, contrary to our revleft.com, blinded by patriotism.

Bin Laden does not represent, or claim to represent the working class of Pakistan or any country, he claims to represent the Islamic world. Also REVLEFT IS A DISCUSSION FORUM NOT A FREAKING POLITICAL FORCE. ALso being somewhat popular in one country does not equate to him being revolutionary or positive at all.


The loyal patriots of revleft.com are in the business of denying the facts of Osama Bin Laden's popularity, because it hurts their feelings as imperialist country parasites and their lackeys.

His popularity has nothing to do with it, niether does our feelings, his murdering innocents and supporting regiems that repress womens, workers, and really every ones rights has everything to do with it.


The above quote is also opportunism, because no class struggles so far have succeeded in an anarchist-pacifist or council communism style

Spanish revolution, Zapatista, Argentine Factory takeovers, Ukraine, must I go on?


Labor laws even in imperialist countries have gone through capitalist parliamentary institutions-- rich people--so to make some big deal about Al Qaeda having rich or super-educated leaders is opportunist, because the same applies for how class struggle has advanced in the imperialist countries generally--through capitalist mediation unfortunately thus far in history.

Yes Labor laws have gone through capitalist institutions, but the leaders of the groups that pushed for them were working class people, with working class interest, Al Qaeda is run by people with out working class interests (or capitalists interests), its an islamic fundementalist organization.


Anyone needing any confirmation that the revleft.com attacks on MIM are about racism and chauvinism got it directly in the same thread Nov 1 2007 at revleft.com denouncing MIM on Osama Bin Laden: "I wouldn't use the Black Planthers as a good example of anything, but a racist reactionary movement." (8) This persyn and others like him are not up for banning, but MIM is; even though, MIM does not participate at revleft.com and hasn't in years!

Although I disagree that the Black panthers were racist or reactionary (they were not), that statement does'nt make the guy a racist at all.


Trotsky was white.

OH NO!!!


The real reason that Bush's *****es-in-training at revleft.com like Rosa Luxemburg, Trotsky and some anarchist thinkers is that all believe the revolutionary class struggle centers in the imperialist countries.

Does Latin America count as the imperialist countries? Because thats where most of the buzz is.


Al Qaeda claims to be anti-capitalist and fighting colonialism and U.$. occupations. Indeed, it is again in the news lately for releasing pro-Malcolm X statements to guide Amerikans.(

They are not anti-capitalist, nor have they claimed to be, they are an islamic fundentalist organization, they ARE fighting colonialism, BUT Tthey are fighting to replace it with something unnacceptable.

BTW does anyone know what MIM is? I have a feeling its just a couple dudes.

[Pogue]

Yeh it literaly is a few people. I don't think its even serious. I doubt they're geuninely interested in the workers movement either.

[RedAnarchist]

Thats from January, and I think we've had a thread about this before.

[BobKKKindle$]

A "patriotic youth group," its a discussion forum!!!

MIM is making a legitimate point even if it is somewhat overstated - there are members here who are nationalistic.


THere is no such think as de facto patriotism, thats like de facto racism or de facto sadness, its rediculous.

Of course there is; there are many people who view themselves as progressive but have positions on certain issues which would have racist (or sexist, nationalist, etc.) implications if they were implemented in the real world, and therefore indicate that the person who is holding the position is racist even though they may not be consciously aware of it - the most obvious example of this is advocating border controls, which is a position held by large sections of the left despite the fact that it is objectively nationalistic, as it is based on the premise that the workers of a given country have a right to resources which are beyond the reach of workers who are currently living in the developing world but might otherwise choose to migrate overseas if they were able to do so without facing the risk of getting shot by the state of the country they are trying to migrate to.

[Led Zeppelin]

So they're now a front for Al Qaeda?

Big surprise there. :lol:

[RGacky3]

MIM is making a legitimate point even if it is somewhat overstated - there are members here who are nationalistic.

Youd have to rEALLY REALLY REALLY stretch the meaning of the word nationalistic.


So they're now a front for Al Qaeda?

Big surprise there. :lol:

I bet Al Queada would think they are nutty.


Of course there is; there are many people who view themselves as progressive but have positions on certain issues which would have racist (or sexist, nationalist, etc.) implications if they were implemented in the real world, and therefore indicate that the person who is holding the position is racist even though they may not be consciously aware of it

Racism is a counsious motivation, its a specific state of mind, if you hold a position that may have racist implications, but the position is based on non racist ideas, YOUR NOT A RACIST, if you have a position that is based on racist ideas but does not have racist implications, you are a racist.

Btw, revleft is a discussion forum, NOT A GROUP or an organization, so its impossible to critizise is as a group.

[BobKKKindle$]

Racism is a counsious motivation, its a specific state of mind [etc]Typing something in capital letters does not make your position legitimate, and once again you are completely wrong. There are very few people in a given society who will openly admit to believing that some ethnic groups are more intelligent or culturally advanced than others, or that a certain ethnic group should not be entitled to the same rights as the rest of society, but this does not automatically mean that everyone except the openly racist minority is completely non-prejudiced, due to the phenomenon on unconscious racism which develops as a result of growing up in a society based on the oppression of subordinate ethnic groups and has an impact on the way people perceive and act towards other members of their society, even though they may not be consciously aware of how their behavior is racist. Consider the following: 33,000 Web Tests Show Unconscious Roots Of Racism, Ageism - Science Daily, 1998 (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/10/981012074004.htm)

The same principle is true of sexism - you may not be consciously sexist but the fact that you advocate abortion restrictions indicates that you hold sexist views because you don't think that women should be able to enjoy the same level of autonomy as men.


Btw, revleft is a discussion forum, NOT A GROUP or an organization, so its impossible to critizise is as a group. Revleft is a group of people who have chosen to become part of a forum which was set up to discuss revolutionary socialism - MIM is not saying that everyone on Revleft has exactly the same position or even that everyone on Revleft is patriotic, they are simply arguing that patriotism is exhibited by a large section of the Revleft membership. The term "patriotic youth group" is obviously not intended to be taken literally, it has been used for dramatic effect and to convey an argument.

*******

To address some other points:


Yes Labor laws have gone through capitalist institutions, but the leaders of the groups that pushed for them were working class people, with working class interesThis is a naive view of history - although the working class did have a role in pushing for certain reforms, in many cases reforms were proposed and implemented by the political leaders of the bourgeoisie as a means to maintain the capitalist system even at the expense of profit in the immediate future. For example, Factory Bills passed in the UK during the 19th century were designed to prevent women from working in dangerous conditions such as those which existed in mines and factories, as the absence of a regulated labour market was leading to the disintegration of the nuclear family and a decline in the health of young children and so the bourgeoisie was faced with the risk of not having a suitable labour force in the future.


Spanish revolution, Zapatista, Argentine Factory takeovers, Ukraine, must I go on?These examples are all either ongoing movements which are only vaguely connected with anarchism and only operate on a small scale with no intention of taking state power, or movements which were crushed due to their inability to organize a coherent defense.

[which doctor]

MIM's nuts, they always have been and they always will be. There's no reason to take anything they say seriously. Sometimes I wonder if it's just one long, drawn-out troll.

[Killfacer]

Mim?

[RGacky3]

There are very few people in a given society who will openly admit to believing that some ethnic groups are more intelligent or culturally advanced than others, or that a certain ethnic group should not be entitled to the same rights as the rest of society, but this does not automatically mean that everyone except the openly racist minority is completely non-prejudiced, due to the phenomenon on unconscious racism which develops as a result of growing up in a society based on the oppression of subordinate ethnic groups and has an impact on the way people perceive and act towards other members of their society, even though they may not be consciously aware of how their behavior is racist.

There are a few people that are openly racist, but a lot less, thats because racism is loosing popularity. Calling people unconsciously racist, is a cop out, it ignores the real problems, and its untrue, its like the fruedians that put everything on sex, and label it as unconsious.


The same principle is true of sexism - you may not be consciously sexist but the fact that you advocate abortion restrictions indicates that you hold sexist views because you don't think that women should be able to enjoy the same level of autonomy as men.


Thats not at all, your oversimplifying it, ignoring the whole reson I am against abortion, it has to do with the personhood of a fetus. Thats the cause behind it. Now putting the effect of that reasoning and labeleing me as a sexist because of it, is ignoring the whole reasoning behind it.

Also stereotyping does not equal racism, niether does personal preference, racism is discrimination based on race, or percieved racial superiority.



Revleft is a group of people who have chosen to become part of a forum which was set up to discuss revolutionary socialism


There are anarchists here, maoists, leninists, syndicalists, social-democrats, refvleft is by no means an organization.


The term "patriotic youth group" is obviously not intended to be taken literally, it has been used for dramatic effect and to convey an argument.


Says who? Are Mim speaking in illustrations or something? In hyperbolies? It seams to me like they are arguing based on the misconception that revleft is some type of organization.


This is a naive view of history - although the working class did have a role in pushing for certain reforms, in many cases reforms were proposed and implemented by the political leaders of the bourgeoisie as a means to maintain the capitalist system even at the expense of profit in the immediate future. For example, Factory Bills passed in the UK during the 19th century were designed to prevent women from working in dangerous conditions such as those which existed in mines and factories, as the absence of a regulated labour market was leading to the disintegration of the nuclear family and a decline in the health of young children and so the bourgeoisie was faced with the risk of not having a suitable labour force in the future.


Most of them were only put thorugh by Capitalist leaders, AFTER long long struggles by working people, and your right they were put it to maintain the system, but they wern't put in just out of good will, they were put in responding to mass public pressure, but workers and working class organizations, like unions.


These examples are all either ongoing movements which are only vaguely connected with anarchism and only operate on a small scale with no intention of taking state power, or movements which were crushed due to their inability to organize a coherent defense.

All of these examples had a coherent defence and did very well considering what they were up against, and since when was taking state power a prerequisit, these movements overcame state power, they don't need a third party.

[Jazzratt]

Didn't MIM disband over this shit or something? Or are both of the members still fighting the good fight?

[BobKKKindle$]

There are a few people that are openly racist, but a lot less, thats because racism is loosing popularity. Calling people unconsciously racist, is a cop out, it ignores the real problems, and its untrue, its like the fruedians that put everything on sex, and label it as unconsious.Electoral support for extremist political organizations has actually been increasing in several countries including the UK and so the assertion that racism is becoming "less popular" is invalid, as long as you accept that voting for one of these parties is an indication of racism. Your error consists in the fact that you only see behavior as racist when the individual is willing to admit that they have racist views, this completely neglects the importance of unconscious racism which has been identified through extensive research and can also be observed in everyday life, especially in the portrayal of ethnic minorities in the bourgeois media, and the discourse of the bourgeois political system on issues such as migration and the cultural rights of ethnic minorities.


Thats not at all, your oversimplifying it, ignoring the whole reson I am against abortionThe actual "reason" you advocate abortion restrictions is irrelevant; the fact is that any kind of restriction on abortion will negatively impact the ability of each individual women to participate in society on an equal basis with men, as the right to control your body is a prerequisite for any kind of social equality, and therefore advocating abortion restrictions is a sexist position. The fact that you hold this position and are apparently aware of what would happen if the state restricted the right to choose means that you are also a sexist although you will doubtless try to obscure this objective truth by claiming that your position is based on the concept of foetal rights. This is not the place to discuss the stupidity of your position on abortion, if you want to discuss this then you can go post in the thread which has already been created for the purpose of discussing this issue.


Also stereotyping does not equal racism, niether does personal preference, racism is discrimination based on race, or percieved racial superiorityThere was no mention of "stereotyping" in any of my previous posts but you are still incorrect, as negative stereotyping (and arguably any form of stereotyping, because the underlying concept of a stereotype is based on the assumption that certain attributes are innate to a specific ethnic group which disregards differences between individuals) is one of the most common forms of racial prejudice and often implies a belief in racial superiority.


There are anarchists here, maoists, leninists, syndicalists, social-democrats, refvleft is by no means an organization. Of course, but this does not discount the fact that there are certain trends which apply to the whole of the membership. The name of this site denotes that most of the people here see themselves as revolutionary and are on the left-wing of the political spectrum despite the fact that Revleft is not an "organization" - MIM is arguing that patriotism is a dominant trend amongst the membership of this site.


Says who? Are Mim speaking in illustrations or something? In hyperbolies? It seams to me like they are arguing based on the misconception that revleft is some type of organization.It only seems this way to you because you are incapable of grasping the concept of literary style. MIM is using the term "patriotic youth group" to denote that most of the people who post on Revleft are young, loyal towards the oppressor nations they inhabit, and possess a limited range of political viewpoints.


Most of them were only put thorugh by Capitalist leaders, AFTER long long struggles by working peopleYet the capitalist leaders have also shown that they are capable of passing legislation despite the opposition of the working class (for example, maintaining the imperialist war in Vietnam for more than a decade, or passing anti-union legislation under the Thatcher government) and so when the capitalist leaders agree to something which is being demanded by the working class it is generally because the interests of the two classes would both be served by the legislation in question, not because they are being forced to make concessions, as in the case of the Factory Bills described above.


All of these examples had a coherent defence and did very well considering what they were up againstIf they had a coherent defense they would have been able to defend themselves against external attacks, and yet they were destroyed and failed to preserve whatever gains they may have achieved during the time they existed. The destruction of the bourgeois state is a necessary objective during any process of revolutionary transformation, because if the bourgeois state remains the bourgeoisie will be able to conduct attacks against and ultimately destroy any kind of revolutionary experiment. This is one of the factors which led to the defeat of the CNT in Spain.


Mim? The Maoist Internationalist Movement, a Third-Worldist organization involving radical academics, famous for arguing that the entirety of the working class has been "bought off" in the imperialist core and transformed into a labour aristocracy, and so revolutionary struggles will only be arise in the oppressed periphery.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

The real reason that Bush's *****es-in-training at revleft.com like Rosa Luxemburg, Trotsky and some anarchist thinkers is that all believe the revolutionary class struggle centers in the imperialist countries.And they think they're not sexist by saying "persyn"?

I smell a Poe (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Poe%27s%20Law).

[BobKKKindle$]

You seem to be forgetting that MIM has done a lot of prison activism in the past, especially in the form of writing to prisoners, which is consistent with their view that the lumpenproletariat and the illegal immigrant semi-proletariat are the only remaining revolutionary forces in the US at the present time. We should all be able to agree that there are at least some US workers who retain revolutionary potential, but at the same time, the labour aristocracy, and the methods by which the imperialist core exploits the periphery and maintains underdevelopment are issues which are rarely discussed on this site, and many members seem to reject the existence of the labour aristocracy despite the fact that the experience of the imperialist core in terms of revolutionary struggle and the political consciousness of the working class indicates that there is a group of workers who have been bought off by the bourgeoisie, and the future of the communist movements depends on our ability to break the ideological and organizational ties between this labour aristocracy and the rest of the working class.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

MIM's bogus "theories" and their complete misunderstanding of the aristocracy of labor have been exposed before: Marx, Engels, Lenin and the labor aristocracy (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=960131)

As for MIM itself, it was started by a group of privileged college students. Sometimes one of their handfuls of members would creep outside for lit distribution in the past (and they printed a regular newspaper - MIM Notes), but encountering them in real life was always pretty rare. I believe they imploded, but I'm not sure (not is it very important). They are completely irrelevent and have nothing to do with communism.

[PRC-UTE]

they must get the most attention for a political group that basically don't exist.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Western workers are cappie running dogs for the bourgeoisie!

[turquino]

Wow, i didn't know so many people knew MIM intimately enough to know how many members they had.

Some of the writing on the etext site is bizarre, but there are also some good resources there. The uploaded MIM theory magazines are good material. "Imperialism and it's Class Structure in 1997" is a very interesting read, and it would a nice idea if the people who criticize MIM's position on parasitism actually read that text beforehand. The Black Panther Party archive is pretty good. There's also the book "Labor Aristocracy, Mass Base of Social Democracy" that's worth checking out.

[Bud Struggle]

Now wonder I like RevLeft you are all a bunch of "imperialist country parasites and their lackeys" just like me.

:lol:

An these MIM people seem to be pretty down on Trotsky just as I start to find him kind of interesting. Oh well. :(

[Bilan]

MIM is making a legitimate point even if it is somewhat overstated - there are members here who are nationalistic.

lul that you'd agree with them.
A few nationalists =/= a patriotic youth group.

[Agrippa]

MIM is a constant source of entertainment. I especially enjoy their movie reviews.

A stopped clock is right twice a day, though. Trotsky was a white supremacist and most Trotskyites and "left-communists" who are unhealthily preoccupied with the "reactionary" dangers of "nationalism" and "third worldism" are usually accomplishing nothing more than making their own quasi-white nationalist fantasies transparent. MIM's defense of Al-Qaeda is undefendable, but to refer to the Black Panthers, for example, as a "reactionary, racist" group is unacceptable and MIM is right to denounce it

On the one side of the coin is MIM, (which, I think at this point, has splintered off into two or three groups. Considering MIM's original size, I doubt each one of these new splinter groups has more than one member. A joke among my peers is that MIM consisted of a single romantic couple who have since broken up and formed their own groups) on the other side are these (http://www.lastsuperpower.net/) people (http://www.spiked-online.com/). Both betray the inherent bankruptcy of Leninism

[Sendo]

still doing their kiddie re-spellings I see.

What's next backward letters?

[redSHARP]

i am not a friend of trotsky but from what i read nothing mentioned white supremacist! proof please!
MIM is one of those groups that make US leftist look bad!:(

[Revy]

MIM is a group that only exists on the Internet. It's the kind of rabid insanity I'd expect from them. A "patriotic youth group"? I thought it was a discussion forum for the Revolutionary Left.

I find it interesting that the standard-bearers of language like "persyn" and "womyn" would use a word like *****es. They could've at least said bytches.

Trotsky was white? So? They go on to accuse Trotsky of becoming a "white nationalist". That's just insane.

[Led Zeppelin]

Trotsky was a white supremacist and most Trotskyites and "left-communists" who are unhealthily preoccupied with the "reactionary" dangers of "nationalism" and "third worldism" are usually accomplishing nothing more than making their own quasi-white nationalist fantasies transparent.

Your ignorance is a constant source of entertainment as well.

[Revy]

Trotsky was a white supremacist


No, he wasn't.


Most Trotskyites and "left-communists" who are unhealthily preoccupied with the "reactionary" dangers of "nationalism" and "third worldism" are usually accomplishing nothing more than making their own quasi-white nationalist fantasies transparent.The working class of the first world is one of many ethnicities. We're not advocating racial separatism like MIM. Trotskyists and Left-Communists never advocated separate nations for people based on the color of their skin. Even if it masks itself with slogans like "self-determination".

If those don't look like quasi-white nationalist fantasies, I don't know what does.

[Ele'ill]

The older I get the more i'm convinced that nobody will ever be happy with anything.

[Pirate Utopian]

Hmmm.. I thynk I'm convynced. I'll fight you U$ of Amerikkka imperiali$t $cum now.
White humyns are such *****es.

[Bud Struggle]

MIM actually has a VERY interesting website. They place RevLeft along with (my beloved) CPUSA as Social Democrats. I can at a stretch see CPUSA being Social Democrat at times, but RevLeft--not so much. Maybe it's because you aren't into just slaughtering anyone that disagrees with you.

Here's something I thought very interesting, as I had been looking at these guys for a while:

Revolutionary Communist Party

Revolutionary Worker (now renamed "Revolution")
PO Box 3486
Chicago, IL 60654

$40 per year; $1 per issue

Self-Description: Uphold Marxism-Leninism-Maoism since 1993. Bob Avakian, chairman.

Comments:MIM no longer takes this organization seriously as a political organization. It is an elaborate political front for state activities ranging from releasing CIA documents on Iraq into the public, coordinating with the CIA on the peace accords issue in Peru (according to their own former co-worker Peruvian Luis Arce Borja) and serving the State Department on International Wimmin's Day, 2006. Especially sinister is its role in penetrating the Peoples' Wars in the Third World. It's members have gone so far as to pose as members of Third World parties carrying out People's Wars.

It says, I think that RCP is a front for the CIA! I kind of wonder if there really is any CIA involvment in these various organization.

Here's the page. http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/wim/wyl/index.html

Also, interesting movie reviews on the site.

One more thing--RedStar2000. Wasn't he a RevLefter? It seems MIM has published a lot of his writings--but don't seem to like him much.

[Revy]

This was recently posted on their website. (http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/security/security111808.html) It's very interesting. But I think it was paranoid of him, as expected, to say "I would not be surprised to see a retaliation against Korea for this article." lol wut?
Also this. (http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/security/security111608.html)



Attention: lawyers for federal court wanted

MIM may need to go to federal court very soon to file a civil suit.
We are looking for a very brave lawyer, one willing to go up against both Democrats and Republicans as well as foreign intelligence interests. We have had bad experience with both the ACLU and National Lawyers Guild.
Images of people who come to mind would be Ron Paul, John Edwards and Ralph Nader.
This email is under surveillance, so do not write to it unless you want to be under surveillance: [email protected]
Thank you.
(http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/security/security111808.html)

[Bud Struggle]

...and then it goes on...


It ends with
I would not be surprised to see a retaliation against Korea for this article.

I know how he feels....been ther done that. :lol:

[black magick hustla]

MIM is a constant source of entertainment. I especially enjoy their movie reviews.

A stopped clock is right twice a day, though. Trotsky was a white supremacist and most Trotskyites and "left-communists" who are unhealthily preoccupied with the "reactionary" dangers of "nationalism" and "third worldism" are usually accomplishing nothing more than making their own quasi-white nationalist fantasies transparent.

This is not an argument. Second, most of the left communists here are not "white", including myself. Third, I can see where are you coming from, considering you think traditions are good in order to "be in harmony" with the celestial bodies, which is not grounded in anything considering the last time we discussed you were not even able to define what "to be in harmony with the celestial bodies" mean.

[RGacky3]

Usually, these types (crazy maoist/stalinist), only turn into parenoid, insane quasi racists AFTER they get in power, not when their still 4 guys with a website.

What strikes me as interesting is that they have a such infated view of themselves, to think that they are actually dangerous to the United States world power, or any world power.

Heres from the article Stancel posted


I've been approached about seeking government office and “growing up.”

Really MIM? really?

But someone earler posted that this group is really a non-group and does'nt desearve to be discussed, or something like that, which is true, but its hard to ignore their loonecy (which maybe is good for them, they're getting attention, negative but at least attention)

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Total hypocrisy. I have half a mind to say that it's these clowns who are promoting "de facto" nationalism by suggesting that "third world" bourgeois youth with internet access (as though only the bourgeoisie in the third world had internet access) are somehow dependent on sites like RevLeft for their insight into the class struggle. What the fuck do these poor bastards think? They clearly have no fucking clue what they're talking about, after all, they support admittedly nationalist movements, that according to them, we're too nationalist to support. (??!!)

While internet access in the third world isn't exclussive to the bourgeoisie, that class does unfortunately account for a disproportionately large part of those with internet access, as we all know.

[Mindtoaster]

MIM makes me wonder if maybe Bogovich wasn't a joke :(