Whats the best thing to use to make people work?

[Unrelenting Steve]

In communsim everyone has to work, or maybe they dont if you only hand out food coupons to those that work, but thats a little too much like capitalism for my tastes, so everyone gets fed in my communist state, but then wheres the motivation to work, peer pressure would be the most actualy used method, but it needs to be backed up by an actual threat, or the system is lickley to fall apart from; "well hes not working, why should I, I'll also be laid back, only show up for work 1 every 3 days" - how can this be dealt with? (humanly, and nicely if possible). Sure we can say we'll shoot them, but...... obviously the sick or people with an inability for work wont be made to work, but how to keep the others from a bad work ethic. Misdemenours, black marks??? with what consequences???

And dont come with your- they should do whatever they want capitalism/liberty for all crap- because your system deals with people who cant hold a job by not letting them afford food and starving. And then calling it a price for liberty (well you dont call it that, but logicaly it is your consequence for your over-extended freedom)

I would post this in the commie club, but im not allowed in!!! I have applied by sending a message to the appropriate person (admin) and have since been met with no response or action. What must I do????????

But please everyone reply, im sure even capitalists as moraly stunted as they are can also think up creative and clever ways to solve this situation (the first situation, the one pertaining to the topic).

(Edited by Unrelenting Steve at 9:23 pm on June 17, 2003)

[Totalitarian]

Fuck work...and fuck communism.

[commie kg]

You shouldn't have to make anyone work.

If the revolution is successful, I'd imagine people would want to work.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Fuck work and fuck communism? Well fuck you Totalitarian.

Initially the only individuals that are going to work to benefit the newly formed state are the soldiers of the revolution. Within months there will be an enormous influx of the working masses that follow suit in fear of getting harmed or even killed. Don't believe me? Just try and cross a teamster's picket line. Now Imagine that on a massive scale. The major problems will be with the individuals who really had something to lose if capitalism fell. There are two cetegories of these;

1) middle and upper-middle class management.

2) upper class executives.

The majority of category one will be made into good communists after a year or two of hard labour rebuilding damaged infrastructure. I don't see much of a problem here at all. The issue will be with the upper class. Don't expect them to turn so easily. The most effective deterrent to this type of sebversionism is simply execute a large number of them. This will benefit us in three ways.

1)setting an example to the former upper class that subversionism will not be tolerated.

2) softening up any members of the middle and upper middle class that feel they could "do the time" only to
practise subversive counter-revolutionary ideals upon release.

3)give to workers a feeling of unity and if you think the middle class is not blood thirsty drones, I suggest reviewing the most popular sports of today. These executions will give the workers a sense of closure to capitalism and open their minds to accepting the new model of man.

Oh yes they will work comrades, because they will not have a choice.

[Bianconero]

Excellent post Comrade RAF, a bit radical, but still excellent.

I don't agree on the full rate however.

I just wanted to add that people from the working class, who can still be mislead by the former system of exploitation, might aswell refuse to work for all society, for the revolution, for themselves, which is ironic I know.

However, the only possibility to change their minds is by educating them about what opportunities this new system holds for them. Education is the word.

Then, moving on to what Comrade RAF describes as "upper class executives", I don't think we should just execute them right from the start. There might be some who could accept the new system and who could be usefull to the state.

Those who are willing to help should not be done any harm, those who refuse to cooperate, to collaborate should work!

They should build up what they destroyed in the past, they should do good work, if necessary they should be forced to work.

As someone, who came to Marxism from being a pacifist before, I still have problems with executing people.

Thoughts please!


(Edited by Bianconero at 11:44 am on June 18, 2003)

[Unrelenting Steve]

There will aways be people who wont work, even if the majority wants to, there must be some kind of infrastructure to cope with the scenario. Perhaps school teachers and principals would have more effective not so amoral techniques. So the truth is all we have come up with is Kill the upper class and the machine of communism will run on fear and comradaryship based of astrocities.

And to the guy who said fuck comunism blah blah.....is that all you can say when you see communism (Need to slander that) but just cant beat that guy's logical and sound argument, whatever shall I do- "Fuck communism and fuck blah blah"-typical capitalist/facist/fucking retard

(Edited by Unrelenting Steve at 6:33 pm on June 18, 2003)

[Anonymous]

Initially the only individuals that are going to work to benefit the newly formed state are the soldiers of the revolution. Within months there will be an enormous influx of the working masses that follow suit in fear of getting harmed or even killed. Don't believe me? Just try and cross a teamster's picket line. Now Imagine that on a massive scale. The major problems will be with the individuals who really had something to lose if capitalism fell. There are two cetegories of these;

So... coercing the massess through fear into abiding by your ideology. Check.

1) middle and upper-middle class management.

2) upper class executives.

The majority of category one will be made into good communists after a year or two of hard labour rebuilding damaged infrastructure. I don't see much of a problem here at all. The issue will be with the upper class. Don't expect them to turn so easily. The most effective deterrent to this type of sebversionism is simply execute a large number of them. This will benefit us in three ways.

Forced labor and mass executions, huh? Check.

1)setting an example to the former upper class that subversionism will not be tolerated.

2) softening up any members of the middle and upper middle class that feel they could "do the time" only to
practise subversive counter-revolutionary ideals upon release.

Just like the death penalty here in Amerikkka sets an example to violent criminals who might commit acts of murder, right? Hypocrisy. Check.

3)give to workers a feeling of unity and if you think the middle class is not blood thirsty drones, I suggest reviewing the most popular sports of today. These executions will give the workers a sense of closure to capitalism and open their minds to accepting the new model of man.

Don't fool youself, they'd become martyrs in a second.

And again with the mass executions I see. Check and Check

You know, I think you and Mazdak would have alot to talk about. Seeing as how there's really no difference between your two ideologies.

[Totalitarian]

Forced labour, socio-economic executions....

What is it you dislike about fascism?

[Totalitarian]

ComradeRAF:
Oh yes they will work comrades, because they will not have a choice.

Charming. Where can i sign up?

[Hegemonicretribution]

The answer is don't make them work, (assuming you have a government) production will be low when the government does not please the people, when people feel motivated production is high, the people and government benifit from each other...keep the government working well is a key point, taht is not performing mass executions and forcing labour. Those that don' work will exist not live...back to the old ethic of work to live..not the current of live to work.

[YKTMX]

Quote: from COMRADE RAF on 11:17 am on June 18, 2003
Fuck work and fuck communism? Well fuck you Totalitarian.

Initially the only individuals that are going to work to benefit the newly formed state are the soldiers of the revolution. Within months there will be an enormous influx of the working masses that follow suit in fear of getting harmed or even killed. Don't believe me? Just try and cross a teamster's picket line. Now Imagine that on a massive scale. The major problems will be with the individuals who really had something to lose if capitalism fell. There are two cetegories of these;

1) middle and upper-middle class management.

2) upper class executives.

The majority of category one will be made into good communists after a year or two of hard labour rebuilding damaged infrastructure. I don't see much of a problem here at all. The issue will be with the upper class. Don't expect them to turn so easily. The most effective deterrent to this type of sebversionism is simply execute a large number of them. This will benefit us in three ways.

1)setting an example to the former upper class that subversionism will not be tolerated.

2) softening up any members of the middle and upper middle class that feel they could "do the time" only to
practise subversive counter-revolutionary ideals upon release.

3)give to workers a feeling of unity and if you think the middle class is not blood thirsty drones, I suggest reviewing the most popular sports of today. These executions will give the workers a sense of closure to capitalism and open their minds to accepting the new model of man.

Oh yes they will work comrades, because they will not have a choice.


Terrible, terrible reactionery thinking there. I the idea that we should somehow frighten the class into working is just nonsense. Barbarism does not have a place in socialism, not to suppress the upper class, or fight wars, or fight subversives. Execution of a people on class grounds is as bad as execution on race grounds. The working class gains control because it is the WILL of the working class. Not because the "soldiers of the revolution" have shot randon class enemies. Executions would do nothing but alienate the class, and give RISE to counter-revolutionary activites. I am not suprised you are a supporter of Stalin, comrade RAF, the old Tyrant would be pround of evry word you just said.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Terrible, terrible reactionery thinking there. I the idea that we should somehow frighten the class into working is just nonsense. Barbarism does not have a place in socialism, not to suppress the upper class, or fight wars, or fight subversives. Execution of a people on class grounds is as bad as execution on race grounds. The working class gains control because it is the WILL of the working class. Not because the "soldiers of the revolution" have shot randon class enemies. Executions would do nothing but alienate the class, and give RISE to counter-revolutionary activites. I am not suprised you are a supporter of Stalin, comrade RAF, the old Tyrant would be pround of evry word you just said.

You are living in a fantasy world son. It is your way of thinking that has bred a new world of pseudo-communist pussies. Why is it that capitalism is spreading faster than herpes at a frat house? The young people of today have no balls and prefer to revolt
armed with a computer and a library of rhetoric.

[Anonymous]

Quote: from COMRADE RAF on 11:17 am on June 18, 2003
Fuck work and fuck communism? Well fuck you Totalitarian.

Initially the only individuals that are going to work to benefit the newly formed state are the soldiers of the revolution. Within months there will be an enormous influx of the working masses that follow suit in fear of getting harmed or even killed. Don't believe me? Just try and cross a teamster's picket line. Now Imagine that on a massive scale. The major problems will be with the individuals who really had something to lose if capitalism fell. There are two cetegories of these;

1) middle and upper-middle class management.

2) upper class executives.

The majority of category one will be made into good communists after a year or two of hard labour rebuilding damaged infrastructure. I don't see much of a problem here at all. The issue will be with the upper class. Don't expect them to turn so easily. The most effective deterrent to this type of sebversionism is simply execute a large number of them. This will benefit us in three ways.

1)setting an example to the former upper class that subversionism will not be tolerated.

2) softening up any members of the middle and upper middle class that feel they could "do the time" only to
practise subversive counter-revolutionary ideals upon release.

3)give to workers a feeling of unity and if you think the middle class is not blood thirsty drones, I suggest reviewing the most popular sports of today. These executions will give the workers a sense of closure to capitalism and open their minds to accepting the new model of man.

Oh yes they will work comrades, because they will not have a choice.


Interesting philosophy. Too bad you don't know if it will really work that way.

A genius like Marx made some predictions regarding the revolution. Some failed predictions:

1) Revolution will occur in industrial countires. Rather they happened in agricultural countries.

2) Working class in the future will revolt because declining standard of living. Workers in the countries were revolution should have taken place, have become better educated, live longer, and have more leisure time. Instead it is the intellectuals driving the revolution not the workers.

You made some predictions. You are no were near the intellectual of Marx and are probably more wrong.

Unions are not so strong any more. I don't doubt that it is very dangerous to cross a picket, and I certainly would not do it. The coal miners were one of the strongest unions in the UK. They brought down several governments, but they could not hold back the Ron/Maggie revolution of privitization and free markets in the 1980s.

I also have no doubt that western countries have a problem with violence. I have no doubt that Hollywood promotes violence. I also have never seen any studies or models of behavior that would support your opinion that violence would have such an outcome on workers. Really your just guessing.

[YKTMX]

Quote: from COMRADE RAF on 1:52 am on June 21, 2003

Terrible, terrible reactionery thinking there. I the idea that we should somehow frighten the class into working is just nonsense. Barbarism does not have a place in socialism, not to suppress the upper class, or fight wars, or fight subversives. Execution of a people on class grounds is as bad as execution on race grounds. The working class gains control because it is the WILL of the working class. Not because the "soldiers of the revolution" have shot randon class enemies. Executions would do nothing but alienate the class, and give RISE to counter-revolutionary activites. I am not suprised you are a supporter of Stalin, comrade RAF, the old Tyrant would be pround of evry word you just said.

You are living in a fantasy world son. It is your way of thinking that has bred a new world of pseudo-communist pussies. Why is it that capitalism is spreading faster than herpes at a frat house? The young people of today have no balls and prefer to revolt
armed with a computer and a library of rhetoric.


And It is the gun toting, barbaric tyranny, of the kind that you advocate that has led to the capitalist adavance! Face it, no human being that has lived or ever will, or SHOULD accept a soicety based on violence and terrorism that yours would be.

I'd rather live under capitalism!

[Unrelenting Steve]

I think comrade RAF is a little right wing in his left wing position. The basis of socialism is the belief in the right of the people to enjoy jointly, what otherwise would be enjoyed by some made by the enslavment of others. This is a very philosophy based in the love of humanity and people, so if you wanna go on excursions of death and murderous rampages, dont shout at others who have stuck to the path- and in the end, if there is going to be bloodshed like you describe and endorse- then Id rather live in capitalism, at least they are ignorant about being wrong, when you would be deluded into thinking your right- and its easier to convert ingnorance into understanding than delusion.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Yes Steve, unfortunately authoritarian policies are considered a right-wing Ideal. We however prefer the label hard-line left. It's all semantics.

Edit:

"Sticking to the path" as you put it is what allowed to capitalists to destroy communism. It does not work boys
I'm glad you are content with sitting at home and being passive in your revolt. At least you're not advocating capitalism. So at best you are no longer harming the movement as the damage the liberal-left has inflicted is already done. Now it's left to us, the ones who actually have the balls to do something about this situaltion, to clean up your fucking mess. And a fine mess it is.

Mr. X,
Please become a capitalist, I mean you're more than halfway there already so why not finish the job 'cos you are absolutely useless to the movement. As a matter of fact you are a hinderance.



(Edited by COMRADE RAF at 1:30 am on June 22, 2003)

[YKTMX]

Quote: from COMRADE RAF on 1:19 am on June 22, 2003
Yes Steve, unfortunately authoritarian policies are considered a right-wing Ideal. We however prefer the label hard-line left. It's all semantics.

Edit:

"Sticking to the path" as you put it is what allowed to capitalists to destroy communism. It does not work boys
I'm glad you are content with sitting at home and being passive in your revolt. At least you're not advocating capitalism. So at best you are no longer harming the movement as the damage the liberal-left has inflicted is already done. Now it's left to us, the ones who actually have the balls to do something about this situaltion, to clean up your fucking mess. And a fine mess it is.

Mr. X,
Please become a capitalist, I mean you're more than halfway there already so why not finish the job 'cos you are absolutely useless to the movement. As a matter of fact you are a hinderance.



(Edited by COMRADE RAF at 1:30 am on June 22, 2003)


Haha, no thanks. It's a better time than ever to be leftist, it's cool and everything!

So fuck the capitalists, and fuck you!

[Dirty Commie]

Knowledge, if the people know they are working for the greater good of the people, they will be compelled to work harder...this is only true if the people beleive in socialism, cappies only work for their own personnal gain, so those who are not educated to understand that their sacrifice [b]is[/] for the greater good of the people will be counter revolutionaries, and must be punished.

[Nobody]

I have a great idea on how to deal with dissedents (orginal posted to great fanfare at protestwarrior.com, fucking cappies) send cappie dissedents to camps were they just have to survive. Give them farming tools and seeds, then let them stay there for however long, like five years. Because we wont give them food, they are forced to work together just to live. I works just like communism were everyone works for the common good. So they really get re-educated at these camps, rather then just do useless tasks. The up side is they will probley be the most feverent believers in communims when they leave because they depended on it for survival. And if they refuse to work together, they die but the blood is not on our hands. It is a win-win situation!!!

[YKTMX]

Quote: from LevTrosky on 2:03 am on June 22, 2003
I have a great idea on how to deal with dissedents (orginal posted to great fanfare at protestwarrior.com, fucking cappies) send cappie dissedents to camps were they just have to survive. Give them farming tools and seeds, then let them stay there for however long, like five years. Because we wont give them food, they are forced to work together just to live. I works just like communism were everyone works for the common good. So they really get re-educated at these camps, rather then just do useless tasks. The up side is they will probley be the most feverent believers in communims when they leave because they depended on it for survival. And if they refuse to work together, they die but the blood is not on our hands. It is a win-win situation!!!

LOL, is this protestwarrior thing serious? I'm signing up to this shit, should be fun. I don't think Comrade RAF should join though, if I annoy him, these guys would probably cause him some sort of heart attack.

[Vinny Rafarino]

That is too good of treatment for subversionists. They simply will be executed. Re-education camps are for so called 'lefties" such as Mr. X here. He is only half-capitalist. I believe he can be rehabilitated. However, there is only one chance for rehabilitation. Fall again on the path to subversionism and you will be eliminated. It is a simply concept that is highly brutal but also highly effective. Eventually the capitalistic ideals that have been planted into the minds of individuals like Mr. X will be wiped away leaving behind the new model of man. Only when we reach this era will there no longer be the need for authoritarian government and executions.

[YKTMX]

Quote: from COMRADE RAF on 3:06 am on June 22, 2003
That is too good of treatment for subversionists. They simply will be executed. Re-education camps are for so called 'lefties" such as Mr. X here. He is only half-capitalist. I believe he can be rehabilitated. However, there is only one chance for rehabilitation. Fall again on the path to subversionism and you will be eliminated. It is a simply concept that is highly brutal but also highly effective. Eventually the capitalistic ideals that have been planted into the minds of individuals like Mr. X will be wiped away leaving behind the new model of man. Only when we reach this era will there no longer be the need for authoritarian government and executions.

Genuis, I'm convinced anyway.

[Vinny Rafarino]

I can see the smelling salts have not revived you yet son. Your legs are still quite shaky. Perhaps you need a nap.

[YKTMX]

Quote: from COMRADE RAF on 3:15 am on June 22, 2003
I can see the smelling salts have not revived you yet son. Your legs are still quite shaky. Perhaps you need a nap.

I find your boxing references quite odd. Surely, if you have a quarrel with someone, hitting them with the fist is liberal-left trotskyism. No, what you wanna, do is shoot him, kill his family and then go and cry at his funeral!

[Nobody]

Mr X what we need to do is wipe out three generations for the dissedents of one. That's what they do in the DPRK.

[Unrelenting Steve]

Quote: from COMRADE RAF on 12:19 am on June 22, 2003
Yes Steve, unfortunately authoritarian policies are considered a right-wing Ideal. We however prefer the label hard-line left. It's all semantics.

Edit:

"Sticking to the path" as you put it is what allowed to capitalists to destroy communism. It does not work boys
I'm glad you are content with sitting at home and being passive in your revolt. At least you're not advocating capitalism. So at best you are no longer harming the movement as the damage the liberal-left has inflicted is already done. Now it's left to us, the ones who actually have the balls to do something about this situaltion, to clean up your fucking mess. And a fine mess it is.

Mr. X,
Please become a capitalist, I mean you're more than halfway there already so why not finish the job 'cos you are absolutely useless to the movement. As a matter of fact you are a hinderance.



(Edited by COMRADE RAF at 1:30 am on June 22, 2003)


I understand the need and am not against authoritarian policies, so long as they are not so arrogant to exclude "better" ways of dealing with the problems that they combat- but I still know that at any level they will be needed in a communist state.

authoritarian policies do not not equal executions and killings based on poeples position in the former class system. Which is what it looks like you were agreeing with when contradicting the contradiction of this view.
Dont blame me for not wanting to stoop so low as the capitalists, the ends to not justify the means- and the ends wont love you for it anyway if they were based on atrocities, which might undermone the how establishment altogether.

[Blibblob]

STEVE! Snap out of it, don't listen to RAF at all. You don't need athoritarian policies to start a communist society, actuall with them, you'll kill the revolution. You don't force people to work, thats what was said back in the begining, and then we get the great CCCP leader RAF in here. MAKING people work will just inflame the people and spark another revolution throwing us back to day one. The people need to understand the reasons, and teaching them through fear is going to get us nowhere. "History teaches you that dictators never end up well." --General Augusto Pinochet. The point is to get support, not anger.

RAF, if you must kill somebody to further the revolution, kill yourself, before you seize power and get assasinated. :biggrin:

[Unrelenting Steve]

Yes I agree, but in a communist state in which everyone gets food (no matter how much you work- because everything else would be amoral(this is my little philosophy, so juts tell me if your invisioning a place where you have to work to get food coupons)), and all the other essancials for life, you need something to keep the minority in line that will not want to work and instead just leech of the system- the control of that is what I would be the athoritarian policies, which will be essencial even if it is never implemented, The truth of the matter is, you could stem this through making the motive to work through only getting things like food coupons through work, but this would just be athoritarian policie in disguise, but even if you explain this to people, its quiet easy to communicate that this is only for sour, lazy people who dont want to do their fair share. If you can think of an easier way to combat this propbably very uncomon problem (that will probably grow if not adressed), then please: but bear in mind this cannot be combated by education because these soughts of people will just be the very arrogent self rightoes sought that just want to cause trouble- probably wont even happen that much through the presence of peer pressure, but still how otherwise do you deal with the scenario in my openeing post (of the one person seeing the other person take too many sick days and feels cheated and does the same). Even if it is never used athoritarian policies might just be needed to instill a sence that its not right to slack off at work.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Still pretending to be a communist I see eh Blob? Your opinion in meaningless.

[Blibblob]

I don't know, a lot of my opinions lately people have been saying aren't communist. But, I don't see a dictatorship as being communist either. You say that the athoritarian government will just go away. How? Why would they want to? It's power. You can't go from a dictatorship, to a dictatorship, to anarchy, it doesn't work that way. You're forgeting the step in which people teach themselves. Do you think democracy is a waste of time?

[Hegemonicretribution]

Quote: from COMRADE RAF on 3:06 am on June 22, 2003[br Only when we reach this era will there no longer be the need for authoritarian government and executions.


Yes but will it just go away? Or will there still be a ruthless regime running a now innocent and productive work force?

How do you stop the example killings (as was mentioned earlier) when they would be need to keep em in power...if they ever truely sort the people...then they are out of power and a job..go fucking figure dumbass..they will be the unproductive ones. Also people will not have a lot of power to stop them.

Like I said ina large scale..if we ain't talking utopia here..a little variation in production gives a sense of peoples mood and is an incentive for fair governing.

[Vinny Rafarino]

[quote]How do you stop the example killings (as was mentioned earlier) when they would be need to keep em in power...if they ever truely sort the people...then they are out of power and a job..go fucking figure dumbass..they will be the unproductive ones. Also people will not have a lot of power to stop them. [quote]

Do you realise this statement is absolute babble? Please make a coherent statement and then perhaps if it is worthy of a response I will reply.

I particularly enjoyed the "go fucking figure" portion of this drivel. Either this kid has Tourette Syndrome or he has been hitting the scag.

[Hegemonicretribution]

First of all I appologise for my sentences, I won't defend myself by accusing others of the same. I was not on skag, I have simply just been gigging for three days. I had to sleep in a kid's tree house, where sleep was not an option.

So the lack of sleep for the past 72hours or so culminated in one non-coherent blast including one profanity. Again I appologise.

Now try again :) Earlier, it was mentioned that example killings during the revolution phase would be needed. I tried to imply that, to keep the powerful in power (as they would wish to stay there), these killings may have to carry on. The same with other such duties. If they are not working they will not maintain that job, it is not productive.

If (as was also mentioned earlier) the "people" will eventually all become of a mindset that is suitable to the regime. Then the example will be made of people, viewed even by the regime, as innocent.


So the authoritarian nature of the regime will, in fact, be counter-productive: The punishment of innocent workers will cause a direct drop in production.

I believe the fact that there are people that serve no benifit to production (guards/poice/whatever), that still require food etc, will also be counter-productive.

Finally the lower moral of a people living in fear will also be counter productive.


Again a lot of the original was babble, but the first question still stands, rhetorical as it was: "Yes but will it just go away? Or will there still be a ruthless regime running a now innocent and productive work force?"


Basically, to make sure that us un-coherent skag head kids get it: 1)Nasty authoritarian regime, there to ensure people fit the new mould.

2)People fit the mould now, and nasty authoritarian regime should dissapear.

3)Nasty authoritarian regime likes the power it has, and won't give it up.

4) (optional) Another revoltuion, people will accept any ecconomic system as long as it is more liberal than what they had. Communism has its name shit on, again.


I stand by the final point I made. A variation in production can be used to guage how the workers feel about government. It is also useful as an inncentive for fair, and good governing.

Very last thing;) I am again interested in how you deduced that an overworked guitarist is a kid on skag. I am young, but am one of the minority on this site old enough to drive, have sex, I don't even have high school anymore. With all respect due, please piss off.

[Anonymous]

Quote: from Unrelenting Steve on 10:09 pm on June 17, 2003
In communsim everyone has to work, or maybe they dont if you only hand out food coupons to those that work, but thats a little too much like capitalism for my tastes, so everyone gets fed in my communist state, but then wheres the motivation to work, peer pressure would be the most actualy used method, but it needs to be backed up by an actual threat, or the system is lickley to fall apart from; "well hes not working, why should I, I'll also be laid back, only show up for work 1 every 3 days" - how can this be dealt with? (humanly, and nicely if possible). Sure we can say we'll shoot them, but...... obviously the sick or people with an inability for work wont be made to work, but how to keep the others from a bad work ethic. Misdemenours, black marks??? with what consequences???

And dont come with your- they should do whatever they want capitalism/liberty for all crap- because your system deals with people who cant hold a job by not letting them afford food and starving. And then calling it a price for liberty (well you dont call it that, but logicaly it is your consequence for your over-extended freedom)

I would post this in the commie club, but im not allowed in!!! I have applied by sending a message to the appropriate person (admin) and have since been met with no response or action. What must I do????????

But please everyone reply, im sure even capitalists as moraly stunted as they are can also think up creative and clever ways to solve this situation (the first situation, the one pertaining to the topic).

(Edited by Unrelenting Steve at 9:23 pm on June 17, 2003)


While communist are struggling with intellectual models of how the make people work. Harvard business schools are more concered with how to make workers productive and increase quality. Why the question of insentive? MBAs don't even ask the question, in a free market you don't even have to ask the question.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/7365/...witherden2.html (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/7365/academic_discussion/business/witherden2.html)

These are not academic models. They are tools and procedures to run a factory and make it hum smoothly. Forget the intellectual discussion. These are real world applications. I have seen too many intellectuals on this board claim to have the answer to making a factory work. Well, don't ask an intellectual who has never been in a factory, ask MBAs and engineers who are on the factory floor.

The highest industrial award in Japan is named after Deming. While his tools and practices rebuilt Japan's economy after WW2, communist factories/production tripped and fell, and could not get up.

Why buy a Soviet made car? Why buy a Japanese car? Which one would you pay your hard earned money for?

[Unrelenting Steve]

"While communist are struggling with intellectual models of how the make people work. Harvard business schools are more concered with how to make workers productive and increase quality. Why the question of insentive? MBAs don't even ask the question, in a free market you don't even have to ask the question."

Whats your point??? So while capitalists are working out how to use slavery legally by setting up shop in foreign countries where this is permitted (in order to increase productivity), while communsists actualy deal with the problem of making something that everyone has a vested interest in maintaining- chalk and cheese Kelvin, its chalk and cheese

You would think a sociatie's worth is based soley on the quality of their consumerables produced- instead of the lives of poeple (America does not contradict this, they degrade enough peoples lives, just because these people do not reside in America is not a testoment to a capitalist sociaty's ability to breed liberty and the persuit of happiness- that would not be looking at the global picture, something that is widley done by Americans; alowing them to sleep at night)

[Vinny Rafarino]

I personally don't have the same fears you ahve mate. I do not believe in the abolishment of the state. The people will never be capable of running a political and ecomonic platform. Bring this to a national scale. Is it even remotely possible for a nation to operate efficiently and productively with to government? No it is not. You are assuming simply because the State will be communist that they will be vicious Dictators. What gives you that idea? Right-wing rhetoric about Stalin? I just don't see a problem here.

I reckon you can handle a bit of ball busting after that comment eh?

[Unrelenting Steve]

you are talking to Kelvin right- because I dont see how that relates to what Ive said, plz ellabourate.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Aplogies Steve. That was directed to hegemonicretrobution.

[kelvin]

Quote: from Unrelenting Steve on 6:27 pm on June 24, 2003
"While communist are struggling with intellectual models of how the make people work. Harvard business schools are more concered with how to make workers productive and increase quality. Why the question of insentive? MBAs don't even ask the question, in a free market you don't even have to ask the question."

Whats your point??? So while capitalists are working out how to use slavery legally by setting up shop in foreign countries where this is permitted (in order to increase productivity), while communsists actualy deal with the problem of making something that everyone has a vested interest in maintaining- chalk and cheese Kelvin, its chalk and cheese

You would think a sociatie's worth is based soley on the quality of their consumerables produced- instead of the lives of poeple (America does not contradict this, they degrade enough peoples lives, just because these people do not reside in America is not a testoment to a capitalist sociaty's ability to breed liberty and the persuit of happiness- that would not be looking at the global picture, something that is widley done by Americans; alowing them to sleep at night)


My point. The Havard MBAs use MONEY to get workers to produce. It is not an intellectual construct. It happens everyday. While communist struggle with intellectual games where they guess how to inpire people to produce, Harvard MBAs have an effective insentive tool. That was the scope of your question. That is one PROVEN way to make people work. It is not the answer you are looking for, but it is a solution to the question you posed.

Your second qeustion is personal. No I don't believe in the in degrading people. Yes I do sleep well at night.

[Vinny Rafarino]

If you read BoyKKKelvin90210's posts like you are Thurston Howell III they are a real laugh.

Just an observation.

[Som]

Quote: from Totalitarian on 5:27 am on June 18, 2003
Fuck work...and fuck communism.


What an odd comment, I should think "fuck work" would be a good portion of the point of communism.


So at best you are no longer harming the movement as the damage the liberal-left has inflicted is already done. Now it's left to us, the ones who actually have the balls to do something about this situaltion, to clean up your fucking mess. And a fine mess it is.

Maybe its not us silly little liberal pussy bastards holding back the revolution, maybe its that most people realize that your shit smells just as bad as the crap they're picking up now.

No ones going to want to change masters when they've got 300 tv channels, try again, a revolution giving new bosses the power to shoot you isn't exactly a concept appealing to the masses.

Most of the time I see that sort of rationale as a means to the end, they say their tyranny will lead a free and open society, a communist stateless society, but youve said you dont even believe in that,
So what exactly is the point of all this killing, besides to secure your own personal spot in the new ruling class?
Free health care and slightly better housing arrangements just wont cut it for the justification of being shot because the new god of the state deems you irrelevant.







(Edited by Som at 6:55 am on June 28, 2003)

[kelvin]

Quote: from COMRADE RAF on 5:38 am on June 28, 2003
If you read BoyKKKelvin90210's posts like you are Thurston Howell III they are a real laugh.

Just an observation.


Please show me your currently applied working model of inspiring people to work.

Please show me how communist/socialist factories try to achieve zero defect products.

"Like I said before BoyKKKelvin90210 the Engineer, I would not allow you to engineer my dick from my keks mate, no matter how pretty you looked after 18 lagers. " -RAF

While you are looking for a drunken homosexual rendevous tonight, I will be rejecting advancements from women at a ballroom dance. That's OK, my sweetie is very attractive, she knows she is very attractive, and is not threatened by advances from other women.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Ladies and gentlemen, if you missed any portion of BoyKKKelvin's 7:00 show, he will be repeating it at 9. Can you hear him in the back? BoyKelvin will be here all week. Please remember to tip your waitress.

You need work on your slags son.

A bit homophobic I see..You know what they say about those homophobic lads. I think BoyKelvin90210 has a few skeletons in his closet. Did I just say closet? Huh...Fits the bill rather nicely doen't it sweetie. Oi !Was that a bone I just saw fall out of your closet BoyKelvin??
I guess that puts a whole new spin on theis ball room dancing stick you're into. The truth is out. It appears BoyKKKelvin here is about two showtunes away from a personalised set of silky little slippers to dance in.

So, this gree-eyed dance partner of yours BoyKelvin, what's his name? Isn't it just super when two boys can find true love together and just dance the night away?

Edit:

I forgot to ask BoyKKKelvin, are you the top or the bottom? All the fingers are pointing at you being the bottom.

(Edited by COMRADE RAF at 4:37 pm on June 28, 2003)

[kelvin]

Quote: from COMRADE RAF on 4:33 pm on June 28, 2003
Ladies and gentlemen, if you missed any portion of BoyKKKelvin's 7:00 show, he will be repeating it at 9. Can you hear him in the back? BoyKelvin will be here all week. Please remember to tip your waitress.

You need work on your slags son.

A bit homophobic I see..You know what they say about those homophobic lads. I think BoyKelvin90210 has a few skeletons in his closet. Did I just say closet? Huh...Fits the bill rather nicely doen't it sweetie. Oi !Was that a bone I just saw fall out of your closet BoyKelvin??
I guess that puts a whole new spin on theis ball room dancing stick you're into. The truth is out. It appears BoyKKKelvin here is about two showtunes away from a personalised set of silky little slippers to dance in.

So, this gree-eyed dance partner of yours BoyKelvin, what's his name? Isn't it just super when two boys can find true love together and just dance the night away?

Edit:

I forgot to ask BoyKKKelvin, are you the top or the bottom? All the fingers are pointing at you being the bottom.

(Edited by COMRADE RAF at 4:37 pm on June 28, 2003)


I'll make it easier for you:

Please show me how communist/socialist factories try to achieve zero defect products.

[Unrelenting Steve]

What has that got to do with anything- and dont say zero defect, just so you can say that communism falls short of all the wonderful ergonomic little devices produced by the capitalist slave machine; functional products that can be produced while maintaining my clear concious is all I want and need.

And that thing earlier about you
"My point. The Havard MBAs use MONEY to get workers to produce. It is not an intellectual construct. It happens everyday. While communist struggle with intellectual games where they guess how to inpire people to produce, Harvard MBAs have an effective insentive tool. That was the scope of your question. That is one PROVEN way to make people work. It is not the answer you are looking for, but it is a solution to the question you posed.

Your second qeustion is personal. No I don't believe in the in degrading people. Yes I do sleep well at night. "

Yes you are right that is not the answer I am looking for, and it is also not an answer to my question, because it totaly ignored the context of the question, making your point totaly irrelevant.

"My point. The Havard MBAs use MONEY to get workers to produce. It is not an intellectual construct. It happens everyday. While communist struggle with intellectual games"
-this way of thinking totaly negates actual aplication of morals; what is functional doesnt equal what is right; we must work with what is right and mold it into a reality, come on Kelvin- Genocide works, that doesnt make it acceptable!

[kelvin]

Quote: from Unrelenting Steve on 10:34 pm on June 28, 2003
What has that got to do with anything- and dont say zero defect, just so you can say that communism falls short of all the wonderful ergonomic little devices produced by the capitalist slave machine; functional products that can be produced while maintaining my clear concious is all I want and need.

And that thing earlier about you
"My point. The Havard MBAs use MONEY to get workers to produce. It is not an intellectual construct. It happens everyday. While communist struggle with intellectual games where they guess how to inpire people to produce, Harvard MBAs have an effective insentive tool. That was the scope of your question. That is one PROVEN way to make people work. It is not the answer you are looking for, but it is a solution to the question you posed.

Your second qeustion is personal. No I don't believe in the in degrading people. Yes I do sleep well at night. "

Yes you are right that is not the answer I am looking for, and it is also not an answer to my question, because it totaly ignored the context of the question, making your point totaly irrelevant.

"My point. The Havard MBAs use MONEY to get workers to produce. It is not an intellectual construct. It happens everyday. While communist struggle with intellectual games"
-this way of thinking totaly negates actual aplication of morals; what is functional doesnt equal what is right; we must work with what is right and mold it into a reality, come on Kelvin- Genocide works, that doesnt make it acceptable!

I'll make it easier in that you only have to answer one question:

I'll even let you choose:

1)Please show me your currently applied working model of inspiring people to work.

2)Please show me how communist/socialist factories try to achieve zero defect products.

You know I don't even need an aswer I already know.

1) There is no communist working model of insentive. It is all just theory.

2) Again you don't know.

[Vinny Rafarino]

BoyKKelvin you are indeed dim. I will explain this one more time. If you bother speaking of it after that then you will simply be classified as a pest. I will then be forced to swat you boy.

"1)Please show me your currently applied working model of inspiring people to work. "

I and many other people already answered this question earlier in this thread. Please pay attention.

"2)Please show me how communist/socialist factories try to achieve zero defect products"

You dim witted oaf. Zero product defect would be a concept applicable to profit driven ecomomic platforms only. As profit is not a concern in socialist economics, "zero product defect" is not applicable.

"You know I don't even need an aswer I already know.

1) There is no communist working model of insentive. It is all just theory.

2) Again you don't know."

I can't wait for the revolution so I can clip your decadent ass.

(Edited by COMRADE RAF at 1:38 am on June 29, 2003)

[Guest1]

well, how about this one: if your government isn't making me happy enough that I want to work and help make this world one of peace, justice and equality, then I'm not fucking working. Simple, isn't it. Education and an emphasis on how each person's actions can change everyone's lives is how it'll work. If the government doesn't do a good job providing for the people (because every government is a liability), then they won't see a point to this "new life" and working to keep it. Stripping the government of its power to force labour would be another good way to give more power to the people over their government.

And please, don't talk to me about murdering people, anyone at all. While the revolution is happening, it isn't government doing the killing, it is the people fighting for freedom. I understand that this is necessary. Once a new government is formed however, one must realize that no matter how "nice" a government it is, no government has the right to exist. It exists simply as an unavoidable injustice, so we work with what we have. But just because we accept that it exists doesn't mean that we must accept further injustices from it. We try to make it as accountable and representative as possible, but it is always the next-best thing because it is all that is possible. Even a communist government should never be given the right to kill. The golden rule, the government should always be challenged and given no less, and no more than the power it needs to help its citizens lead a happy life. This is, in my belief, the only way to resist the Stalinists of every revolution.

(Edited by Che y Marijuana at 2:58 am on June 29, 2003)

[Vinny Rafarino]

Someone has to do the dirty work Che. Just be glad there is people like myself around so you don't have to.

[Al Khabir]

So, Mighty and wonderful Comrae RAF, as useful as you would be during the revolution to charge Fascist machine guns, how do you think you could convince anyone to revolt under the slogan of "Peace, Freedom and Stalinism". Even the dimwits that watch daytime television in the USA know enough history to tell that Stalinism is just another dictatorship. The only danger you pose, despite all your posturing, is to hijack the revolution because the principles of your oppenents force them to give you a vote. Oh, and by the way, I dont see you in the front lines in Colombia very often. I wonder why you are sitting behind a computer just like those you criticise when there are plenty of places you could be inciting mobs?

[Vinny Rafarino]

Quote: from Al Khabir on 4:14 pm on June 29, 2003
So, Mighty and wonderful Comrae RAF, as useful as you would be during the revolution to charge Fascist machine guns, how do you think you could convince anyone to revolt under the slogan of "Peace, Freedom and Stalinism". Even the dimwits that watch daytime television in the USA know enough history to tell that Stalinism is just another dictatorship. The only danger you pose, despite all your posturing, is to hijack the revolution because the principles of your oppenents force them to give you a vote. Oh, and by the way, I dont see you in the front lines in Colombia very often. I wonder why you are sitting behind a computer just like those you criticise when there are plenty of places you could be inciting mobs?

Son you first need to leard a bit about communism before you judge me. Try reading some information on Stalin that is not Western Propaganda. You also should try reading some information on urban armed struggle.
Why would I want to go to Columbia? Rural guerilla warfare is a defferent animal altogether. Perhaps you should try reading about it.

Notice the theme here son?

[Guest1]

well, we don't have to resort to attacking RAF, Khabir. I believe we're all in this for the same reasons, I just have less trust in authority. I don't think someone who has the power to kill and imprison is gonna give it back when it's time for real peace.

[kelvin]

Quote: from COMRADE RAF on 4:33 pm on June 28, 2003


A bit homophobic I see..You know what they say about those homophobic lads. I think BoyKelvin90210 has a few skeletons in his closet. Did I just say closet? Huh...Fits the bill rather nicely doen't it sweetie. Oi !Was that a bone I just saw fall out of your closet BoyKelvin??
I guess that puts a whole new spin on theis ball room dancing stick you're into. The truth is out. It appears BoyKKKelvin here is about two showtunes away from a personalised set of silky little slippers to dance in.



Zero defect production lines are very important. You would perfer to fly in an airliner that was manufactured with TQM tools and management techniques or not? The expectation of automobiles every year has been increasing. It is not uncommon for Japanese cars to be driven in excess of 300,000 miles, while 20 years ago a car lasting 100,000 would be a miracle. All done in the name of increasing quality and zero defects.

Quite the contrary. I should have been more clear. I do not have a problem with your homosexuality. It is the seeking of partners while you are drunk is what I take issue with. In this day of deadly sexually transmitted diseases seeking partners while drunk is extremely dangerous. More so for homosexuals.

I applaud you for openly seeking your homosexuality. I wish more men were gay. I would look much better if more men were gay

[Vinny Rafarino]

Quote: from kelvin on 2:46 am on June 30, 2003

Quote: from COMRADE RAF on 4:33 pm on June 28, 2003


A bit homophobic I see..You know what they say about those homophobic lads. I think BoyKelvin90210 has a few skeletons in his closet. Did I just say closet? Huh...Fits the bill rather nicely doen't it sweetie. Oi !Was that a bone I just saw fall out of your closet BoyKelvin??
I guess that puts a whole new spin on theis ball room dancing stick you're into. The truth is out. It appears BoyKKKelvin here is about two showtunes away from a personalised set of silky little slippers to dance in.



Zero defect production lines are very important. You would perfer to fly in an airliner that was manufactured with TQM tools and management techniques or not? The expectation of automobiles every year has been increasing. It is not uncommon for Japanese cars to be driven in excess of 300,000 miles, while 20 years ago a car lasting 100,000 would be a miracle. All done in the name of increasing quality and zero defects.

Quite the contrary. I should have been more clear. I do not have a problem with your homosexuality. It is the seeking of partners while you are drunk is what I take issue with. In this day of deadly sexually transmitted diseases seeking partners while drunk is extremely dangerous. More so for homosexuals.

I applaud you for openly seeking your homosexuality. I wish more men were gay. I would look much better if more men were gay

I'm not gay BoyKKKelvin. Did you think you little rant here would anger me? Not likely.

Still on about this zero defect nonsense. I just explained it in terms a 5 year old would understand. You are truly the most obtuse capitalist I have ever had the displeasure of speaking with.

Keep up the good work boy!

[commieboy]

i like the idea of public humiliation.

Get the majority of the people to believe that working is the right thing to do. then those who dont work will be put in a futuristic stocks. and by that i mean some sort of more modern thing that can give the same effect as the stocks. people will laugh at them and what ever, then they will work. if not i think the same thing should be dont two more times....the old three strikes and you're out...and after that third strike you are flogged. after that you are shot. thats it, just shot, no expensive lethal injections just a single 7.62X39mm bullet that the Government will pay for.

And to get those people to believe working is the best thing is to make holidays. i say one month out of the week, factories will vote what day they want off. along with saturday and sunday will be off but optional for people whom would like somthing of a non material value, like food, a free lunch or anything but NEVER MONEY! but you never want that iteam to be too valuable. then people will fight and create bitterness in the workplace.

Differnt work places will participate in sports against other factories, offices, farms, etc. but not intermural games, the one thing you want is unity in a business. you never want one person to work harder than another. every job must take the same effort, in say a factory. but this doesnt apply for desk jobs, so instead of having one man work had on a project have ten men, it doesnt discourage people, and it gives more jobs.

And make contests, to win a weekend in the president's estate. or have radios or TVs somthing to keep the people happy at the workplace.

The military shouldn't be any more Prestigious than a factory worker or a farmer. as in alot of communist states, but you need your moral up and your soldiers loyal so America cant try to make a coup. how do you do this? find other communist countries and participate in wargames. make heros of your country as the soviet union made of their snipers in WWII. give them a romodel.

Even the elderly in my country will have a job until death, unless health becomes an issue, then they are promply sent to a healthcare center. the elderly will have desk jobs, or simple ones like a machinery operator.

And like Che, leaders of the government will go into the fields and factories. listen to the peoples' ideas as you work with them. have union reps speak to and for you about issues concerning their workers. leaders can never let themselves seem more important than the average person. you need to show yourself training with the military, working with the farmers. and you need to show yourself helping the sick.

thats my idea, its long and poorly thought out, but its what i think will work, and its my dream communist state.

[Guest1]

I wouldn't wanna work my entire life, in fact, I would rather not work at all if I could. but until technology reaches the level where everyone can free themselves from that kind of work, and do what they want (write, draw, etc), I'm willing to work for a society that is good for all. I think you've missed the point with your state commieboy, no offense.

[Xprewatik RED]

Comrade RAF are you saying Stalinism is correct? At age four my Grandma was transported to Siberia. Her mom dad brother and two sisters didnt last the winter. As my homeland was starved in the famous Ukrainian famine , which my grandpa's brother lived through my Grandma lived in friged condiitons in Siberia. She says it would have been more humane if she had been shot. Justify 10million deaths ! NOW TO THE MAIN QUESTION. People need a reason to work. Goals need to be set and the people must feel comepletly included in production. Positions should be chosen on the basis of elections of a factory. A factory must have a sense of community. Remember under Communism there is no government. People will work if they believe that the factory is their means of survival, and the survival of their family. Desk jobs, should not exist. The workers will elect those who they find most capable of managing production, and they will kick them out of power if needed. The factory or group farm must be a community of freedom. Noone will rule over anyone else. Decisions will be made by elections and ballat boxes of the people.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Yes, Stalin was correct.

No there were not 10 million deaths.

There was starvation in the Ukraine long before Stalin.

Are there any onther conditions in Siberia besides frigid?

[Xprewatik RED]

The number is estimated between 7-12million and it was during the early 1930's and yes Stalin was there. He was attempting to Communalize farming, and to break the spirit of the Ukrainian peasant. You are brainwashed, if you believe Stalin was not an evil man. If you deny that 19million prisoners saw Siberia than you are a fool. You are spitting on the graves of the innocent. Stalin is scum, his followers just as bad. None are Communists ,all are simply traitors to the Utopia.

Are there any onther conditions in Siberia besides frigid?

Must I describe it any other way? Or do you deny Siberia is a waste land, just like you deny Stalin is a criminal? I suppose if someone told you Siberia was a wonderful place you would believe them.

[Vinny Rafarino]

If you want actual facts about Stalin instead of the drivel you have posted here. Please visit the numerous threads in this forum. I don't argue with you lot anymore.

[sc4r]

Quote: from Xprewatik RED on 9:17 pm on June 30, 2003
The number is estimated between 7-12million and it was during the early 1930's and yes Stalin was there. He was attempting to Communalize farming, and to break the spirit of the Ukrainian peasant. You are brainwashed, if you believe Stalin was not an evil man. If you deny that 19million prisoners saw Siberia than you are a fool. You are spitting on the graves of the innocent. Stalin is scum, his followers just as bad. None are Communists ,all are simply traitors to the Utopia.

Are there any onther conditions in Siberia besides frigid?

Must I describe it any other way? Or do you deny Siberia is a waste land, just like you deny Stalin is a criminal? I suppose if someone told you Siberia was a wonderful place you would believe them.



I'm no supporter of Stalin, he was by everything I have ever read about him including what he turned the USSR into a monster.

But I'm afraid you will find that RAF is correct about the death estimates. They are not today considered remotely reliable although they are reprinted in so many places that the myth will probably stick.

A few tears ago the KKremlin archibes were opened up. According to those records Stalins purges killed closer to 1 million. Most of these were party members.

In my eyes that still leaves him a monster unless you could very conclusively prove that they really were essential to prevent a counter revolution and preserve socialism (Kinda hard to do I'd have thought).

But there is frankly at least a shadow of doubt about Stalin. Not much, not even enough to persuade me to revise my wish that he burns in Hell for eternity; but some.

[Marxist Theory]

Believin whut you are told is one thing, usually people are not taught to challenge whut other humans of higher stas say, still does not mean whut the people of higher stas say is true. True- Stalin killed at least ten million innocent civilians, if you were to listen to followers of Stalin and believe whut they say you would be believing a lie, letting that lie stand in your mind and showing that you are unwilling to challenge it shows weakness and lack of thought.

[Marxist Theory]

Still do you consider a million people a justifiable amount... take your pick mass murder or genocide.

[Red Comrade]

It is unfair to blame someone for famine when it is not intentional. I don't think Stalin purposely starved the Ukraine.

[Invader Zim]

The solution is simple, if people work, then they increase production, right? If they increase production, then the product will be there's anyway. If a socialist nation increases production by 25% then the people will get 25% more of the product. If people know this then they will work harder, as they will reap the benefits of there work, in the long run.

Of course what I am saying is a little Idealistic...

[Xprewatik RED]

How can you call the deaths of millions an accident? Stalin was the man controlling the murder, he wanted to crush the powerful spirit of the Ukrainian peasant. He wished to turn their meager lives into a prison. He destroyed a nation and achieved his goals. Ukraine was demoralized....

[Vinny Rafarino]

This thread is about increasing productuon of the working class without the use of capital.
There are threads here specifically created for all the believers of right-wing and western propaganda to post their lies. Please use them.

[Unrelenting Steve]

This thread is about keeping in line those sullen people who just dont want to support their fair and wonderful system, he is filled with hate and doesnt want to work, if he doesnt work, he is still provided with all the esentials- how do we deal with him???

because we must, otherwose others will be jelous of his life style, perhaps, or perhaps the poeple would give him such peer pressure that life would be intolerable for him, either way, we need a way to thepreticaly deal with him.

(Edited by Unrelenting Steve at 12:43 am on July 1, 2003)

[Guest1]

If you don't work, your provisions are reduced year by year. Like, maybe one year, you lose thr ight to an electric car, then the right to some other major luxury, etc... but you're guaranteed basics, housing, clothing, food, health care. Unless you have an excuse, like you're dying.

[Loknar]

About the death toll

I would like to point out that the records of the red army during WW2 are missing allot of names. Family members claim that their sons/daughters, who were KIA/MIA, name doesnt appear in the records. Therefore, I would be inclined to believe that even though the archives claim 1 million it could be many more than that.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Loknar you piss me off but i'm not going to bite.




This thread is about keeping in line those sullen people who just dont want to support their fair and wonderful system, he is filled with hate and doesnt want to work, if he doesnt work, he is still provided with all the esentials- how do we deal with him???

The initial manifestations of dissention in a worker must
be immediately and severely dealt with as to provide the necessary example to any other lazy and rebellious workers. These individuals must be immediately sent for re-education at a labour camp. The amount of re-education will depend on the severity of the workers subversive actions. Simple laziness or unwillingness to use his work to better himself can be easily corrected with a short imprisonment. Perhaps just a few weeks. Continual counter revolutionary actions that are minor will result in a longer re-education at a stricter labour camp. Perhaps with an incarceration time of several months to several years. The sentence will be imposed to the worker by his party comrades within his workplace and not by the state officials.

[Xprewatik RED]

Comrade RAF you dirty oppressor the workers must live in peace not camps. The rebellious worker must be listened to, it is an open society. Maybe this rebellious worker is good at certain tasks. After he sees the benefit of a workers state he will not have the power, or will to rebel. A camp will just make him even more rebellious, because a camp is oppression. He cannont be wasted, and his life not lost. Human life cannont be thrown away like an old toy. Maybe his suggestions might help society? You cannont dispose of life. Human life is the most precious resource on the face of the earth, nothing can justfy taking it. Labor camps cannont exist. If there are capitalists can point to them and say look at the oppression. Bad workers can learn from their peers to want to work, after they begin to enjoy their new prosperous society. And a oppression camp means there is a government, which is not TRUE Communism. Humans are not dogs. They don't get whipped. They are treated as they should be. Equally and with much care, no matter what their political stance. RAF you are no free thinker just a person who wishes to murder on a large level. Its people like you who ruined Communism.

[Xprewatik RED]

The worker is dealt accodingly. The community meets with him and questions what are his problems. They counsel him , and show that the society is giving him what he wants, slowly he gets more educated. They ask what he would do to improve it. If they are reasonable, maybe they would help the society. If it becomes violent and anti-marxist than he can be cast out of society, and told to make his own life.

[sc4r]

Quote: from Xprewatik RED on 12:00 pm on July 1, 2003
The worker is dealt accodingly. The community meets with him and questions what are his problems. They counsel him , and show that the society is giving him what he wants, slowly he gets more educated. They ask what he would do to improve it. If they are reasonable, maybe they would help the society. If it becomes violent and anti-marxist than he can be cast out of society, and told to make his own life.

Surely this will create oulaws whose most obvious source of a livelehood is to steal from society. Certainly they are not going to feel any love for the society that has cast them out.

And if I read you right and they re-offend whilst outlaws (as they surely would) what do you do then?

[Vinny Rafarino]

This lad calls me the reason for the downfall of communism. Perhaps you, me and peter pan can all fly off to never-never land and live in a nice subversion free environment mate. Your obvious lack of knowledge of not only history but also the communist party is shameful.

I apologise to everyone who has unfortunately read any of your posts.

[Al Khabir]

Comrade RAF, You can at least not deny that Stalin was not a great man. He was great in that he left a huge effect on history, but his handling of world war two and alliance with the NAZI's at least must be some pretty good evidence. Oh yeah, and Im not your son. Talking like that is a sign of your own insecurity.

Also (for everyone else) we seem to be talking about a government entity which is seperate from the people. The way I see it, if the politicians were elected by the workers from among their own (like a trades union) you would end up with a [arty dedicated to helping the workers, and not some elected oligarchy or Beaurocracy.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Quote: from Al Khabir on 11:13 pm on July 1, 2003
Comrade RAF, You can at least not deny that Stalin was not a great man. He was great in that he left a huge effect on history, but his handling of world war two and alliance with the NAZI's at least must be some pretty good evidence. Oh yeah, and Im not your son. Talking like that is a sign of your own insecurity.

Also (for everyone else) we seem to be talking about a government entity which is seperate from the people. The way I see it, if the politicians were elected by the workers from among their own (like a trades union) you would end up with a [arty dedicated to helping the workers, and not some elected oligarchy or Beaurocracy.

Alliance with the Nazi's? You are from Pluto son. Again, there are numerous threads for your lies. Post them there. I personally don't care what you think as everything you have said hitherto has been absurd.

[Loknar]

Stalin signed a non-aggression pact with the Nazi's, not an alliance. Stalin made the correct decision as Britain wanted absolutely nothing to do with Russia (Stalin offered an alliance i believe). Can anyone blame the Fins for becoming German friendly? The allies basically told them that they were on their own.

[kelvin]

Quote: from COMRADE RAF on 4:09 am on June 30, 2003

Quote: from kelvin on 2:46 am on June 30, 2003

Quote: from COMRADE RAF on 4:33 pm on June 28, 2003


A bit homophobic I see..You know what they say about those homophobic lads. I think BoyKelvin90210 has a few skeletons in his closet. Did I just say closet? Huh...Fits the bill rather nicely doen't it sweetie. Oi !Was that a bone I just saw fall out of your closet BoyKelvin??
I guess that puts a whole new spin on theis ball room dancing stick you're into. The truth is out. It appears BoyKKKelvin here is about two showtunes away from a personalised set of silky little slippers to dance in.



Zero defect production lines are very important. You would perfer to fly in an airliner that was manufactured with TQM tools and management techniques or not? The expectation of automobiles every year has been increasing. It is not uncommon for Japanese cars to be driven in excess of 300,000 miles, while 20 years ago a car lasting 100,000 would be a miracle. All done in the name of increasing quality and zero defects.

Quite the contrary. I should have been more clear. I do not have a problem with your homosexuality. It is the seeking of partners while you are drunk is what I take issue with. In this day of deadly sexually transmitted diseases seeking partners while drunk is extremely dangerous. More so for homosexuals.

I applaud you for openly seeking your homosexuality. I wish more men were gay. I would look much better if more men were gay

I'm not gay BoyKKKelvin. Did you think you little rant here would anger me? Not likely.

Still on about this zero defect nonsense. I just explained it in terms a 5 year old would understand. You are truly the most obtuse capitalist I have ever had the displeasure of speaking with.

Keep up the good work boy!



Zero defect nonsene? Check the saftey record of Aeroflot:

"For years the butt of jokes owing to its checkered safety and service record, ...."

"Aeroflot jokes have long been a staple of flying in Russia, a way to kill time in fetid airport departure lounges and take your mind off the abusive personnel and creaky planes to whom you are about to entrust your life."

http://www.rferl.org/nca/features/2003/01/...12003165625.asp (http://www.rferl.org/nca/features/2003/01/16012003165625.asp)

I ask you again. Which do you prefer to fly? Boeing built TQM aircraft or Soviet era Aeroflot?

"Like I said before BoyKKKelvin90210 the Engineer, I would not allow you to engineer my dick from my keks mate, no matter how pretty you looked after 18 lagers. " -RAF

It is common not to remember homosexual encounters after 18 lagers.

[commieboy]

Quote: from Che y Marijuana on 7:38 am on June 30, 2003
I wouldn't wanna work my entire life, in fact, I would rather not work at all if I could. but until technology reaches the level where everyone can free themselves from that kind of work, and do what they want (write, draw, etc), I'm willing to work for a society that is good for all. I think you've missed the point with your state commieboy, no offense.


none taken, but i think you're right....i say...age seventy and you're out of the game...then you live in a low income house until you die.....just a minor problem that has been fixed to perfect my untopia!!

[Vinny Rafarino]

Zero defect nonsene? Check the saftey record of Aeroflot:


were we not talking about a communist economy? That's what you were talking about originally...then you bring the Soviets into the picture...Make up your fucking mind son. The Soviet state never attained a communist economical platform.

[elijahcraig]

I don't agree with RAF on the mass executions and all that, that is counter-revolutionary. That would become corrupt, just like when Stalin did it. If we call ourselves communists and say we are going to take control and kill people if they don't go along, that's not communism, that's stalinism.

Mass movements are the way to go, taking power and forcing death or work on people is Stalinist and counter-revolutionary. I'd like to see you taking this side when the new state comes to your house for "counter-revolutionary" practices...you wouldn't be spitting this nonsense. If you approve of these tactics, you must approve of Stalin and Mao?

This "work or death" thing could become easily corrupt, it would lead back to capitalism. That would make communists the enemies of the working class. When you talk this way you are furthering yourself from the workers and coming closer and closer the monopolized state capitalists.

I am not living in a fantasy world either. You thinking that there should be executions is a fantasy world, that does not win support. Executions are barbaric, no state is ever right, they are all corrupt, so giving a corrupt state the right to execute people, that is totalitarianism. Totalitarianism, that is what you are talking about. And that is the opposite of communism.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Quote: from elijahcraig on 8:39 am on July 2, 2003
I don't agree with RAF on the mass executions and all that, that is counter-revolutionary. That would become corrupt, just like when Stalin did it. If we call ourselves communists and say we are going to take control and kill people if they don't go along, that's not communism, that's stalinism.

Mass movements are the way to go, taking power and forcing death or work on people is Stalinist and counter-revolutionary. I'd like to see you taking this side when the new state comes to your house for "counter-revolutionary" practices...you wouldn't be spitting this nonsense. If you approve of these tactics, you must approve of Stalin and Mao?

This "work or death" thing could become easily corrupt, it would lead back to capitalism. That would make communists the enemies of the working class. When you talk this way you are furthering yourself from the workers and coming closer and closer the monopolized state capitalists.

I am not living in a fantasy world either. You thinking that there should be executions is a fantasy world, that does not win support. Executions are barbaric, no state is ever right, they are all corrupt, so giving a corrupt state the right to execute people, that is totalitarianism. Totalitarianism, that is what you are talking about. And that is the opposite of communism.


Good luck with your fallacy mate.

[Xprewatik RED]

Countries that use execution camps are bound to fail. Once people see these horrors they will question their state and revolt. If you are prepared to sluaghter to stay in power, you will last a bit of time, but than you will collapse.



"Surely this will create oulaws whose most obvious source of a livelehood is to steal from society. Certainly they are not going to feel any love for the society that has cast them out.
And if I read you right and they re-offend whilst outlaws (as they surely would) what do you do then? "


When i mean cast out i dont mean literaly to another area. But if they chose not to live by society than they have the right to live their own way. They won't benefit from the community and they'll have to take care of their own lives. If they decide to come back than let them. But the number of people who support the society(if the society is prosperous) will outnumber the amount of dissidents.


"This lad calls me the reason for the downfall of communism. Perhaps you, me and peter pan can all fly off to never-never land and live in a nice subversion free environment mate. Your obvious lack of knowledge of not only history but also the communist party is shameful"


Whoa a system of mass murdering, execution camps,and secret police. Thats the kinda place I want to live in. Where can I sign up. Instead of calling people in the system citzens, why not call them dogs? The leaders play god, and the people are their pets. What a great advertisment for Communism, mudering and no rights. A communist system that is fair to its people? I must be insane! Now I have seen the light, I should start killing people right now to get ready! To make sure I have no consience.

[Hegemonicretribution]

Quote: from Xprewatik RED on 2:26 pm on July 2, 2003
Countries that use execution camps are bound to fail. Once people see these horrors they will question their state and revolt. If you are prepared to sluaghter to stay in power, you will last a bit of time, but than you will collapse.



"Surely this will create oulaws whose most obvious source of a livelehood is to steal from society. Certainly they are not going to feel any love for the society that has cast them out.
And if I read you right and they re-offend whilst outlaws (as they surely would) what do you do then? "


When i mean cast out i dont mean literaly to another area. But if they chose not to live by society than they have the right to live their own way. They won't benefit from the community and they'll have to take care of their own lives. If they decide to come back than let them. But the number of people who support the society(if the society is prosperous) will outnumber the amount of dissidents.


"This lad calls me the reason for the downfall of communism. Perhaps you, me and peter pan can all fly off to never-never land and live in a nice subversion free environment mate. Your obvious lack of knowledge of not only history but also the communist party is shameful"


Whoa a system of mass murdering, execution camps,and secret police. Thats the kinda place I want to live in. Where can I sign up. Instead of calling people in the system citzens, why not call them dogs? The leaders play god, and the people are their pets. What a great advertisment for Communism, mudering and no rights. A communist system that is fair to its people? I must be insane! Now I have seen the light, I should start killing people right now to get ready! To make sure I have no consience.






One of the best Ideas I have seen on this site so far. Communism with an alternative of anarchy..where do I sign up? I would give communism a go, but I think I would prefer anarchy, at least at first..liveing off the land and being free it is how I live most the time now and I love it. But if the commie thing got goin then that would be good then I suppose I could tame myself a bit, I like the option thing a lot.

P.S. It is interesting to see comrade raf address most as son boy or kid. Does he really have his head so far up his own ass as to think he is superior to everyone else? Please I beg of you, people will not want an authoritarian fuck up like yourself. If they get one production will be low, because of moral, or nil because you purged them all. Please spare us another historical black mark and keep your hatemongering tactics confined to your P.C.

[Xprewatik RED]

One of the best Ideas I have seen on this site so far. Communism with an alternative of anarchy..where do I sign up? I would give communism a go, but I think I would prefer anarchy, at least at first..liveing off the land and being free it is how I live most the time now and I love it. But if the commie thing got goin then that would be good then I suppose I could tame myself a bit, I like the option thing a lot.

Society needs options, I guess. Also because I' m 15 I always believe and can't stand it when people tell me how to live.

P.S. It is interesting to see comrade raf address most as son boy or kid. Does he really have his head so far up his own ass as to think he is superior to everyone else? Please I beg of you, people will not want an authoritarian fuck up like yourself. If they get one production will be low, because of moral, or nil because you purged them all. Please spare us another historical black mark and keep your hatemongering tactics confined to your P.C.

They won't leave his computer. The problem is other lunatics like him, who have more charisma. Other possible leaders who won't reveal these tactics until they have their dirty fingers choking the country.

[Unrelenting Steve]

Quote: from commieboy on 10:15 am on June 30, 2003
i like the idea of public humiliation.

Get the majority of the people to believe that working is the right thing to do. then those who dont work will be put in a futuristic stocks. and by that i mean some sort of more modern thing that can give the same effect as the stocks. people will laugh at them and what ever, then they will work. if not i think the same thing should be dont two more times....the old three strikes and you're out...and after that third strike you are flogged. after that you are shot. thats it, just shot, no expensive lethal injections just a single 7.62X39mm bullet that the Government will pay for.

And to get those people to believe working is the best thing is to make holidays. i say one month out of the week, factories will vote what day they want off. along with saturday and sunday will be off but optional for people whom would like somthing of a non material value, like food, a free lunch or anything but NEVER MONEY! but you never want that iteam to be too valuable. then people will fight and create bitterness in the workplace.

Differnt work places will participate in sports against other factories, offices, farms, etc. but not intermural games, the one thing you want is unity in a business. you never want one person to work harder than another. every job must take the same effort, in say a factory. but this doesnt apply for desk jobs, so instead of having one man work had on a project have ten men, it doesnt discourage people, and it gives more jobs.

And make contests, to win a weekend in the president's estate. or have radios or TVs somthing to keep the people happy at the workplace.

The military shouldn't be any more Prestigious than a factory worker or a farmer. as in alot of communist states, but you need your moral up and your soldiers loyal so America cant try to make a coup. how do you do this? find other communist countries and participate in wargames. make heros of your country as the soviet union made of their snipers in WWII. give them a romodel.

Even the elderly in my country will have a job until death, unless health becomes an issue, then they are promply sent to a healthcare center. the elderly will have desk jobs, or simple ones like a machinery operator.

And like Che, leaders of the government will go into the fields and factories. listen to the peoples' ideas as you work with them. have union reps speak to and for you about issues concerning their workers. leaders can never let themselves seem more important than the average person. you need to show yourself training with the military, working with the farmers. and you need to show yourself helping the sick.

thats my idea, its long and poorly thought out, but its what i think will work, and its my dream communist state.

[kelvin]

Quote: from COMRADE RAF on 8:12 am on July 2, 2003
Zero defect nonsene? Check the saftey record of Aeroflot:


were we not talking about a communist economy? That's what you were talking about originally...then you bring the Soviets into the picture...Make up your fucking mind son. The Soviet state never attained a communist economical platform.




Ok. Then communst have never had any experiece building safe, durable, and reliable goods within the context of thier economic system. Sound to me you need to go and do more homework before you impose an incomplete and faulty economic system on the world.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Amazingly dense statement BoyKKKelvin90210.

How can an economic system that does not rely on capital be faulty? Goods are produced as needed. The only thing that would stop a production flow is if the material needed no longer resided on the planet. As no one profits monetarily from a communist economic system, there cannot be a "faulty" one. The only issue would be providing accurate census information to the state and timely product requests from local community governments. No one is trying to fuck anyone over in a communist system KKKelvin. It's an illogical affirmation as these goods are only valuable to the user and are available to anyone. No one person "gets" while one "does not get" The "compete with your neighbour mentality" essentially is abolished.

I also want to address another bloke..I can't remember if it is in the early portion of this thread or the other thread boyKelvin started about this exact subject.

People asuume a communist society does without "luxuries" I believe the person said there would be no cars, televisions, etc...What are you thinking son? Are you saying communists don't like to drive cars? Don't like to use electric tin openers? Don't like to watch the Tele?

What is the matter with capitalists? You think you are the only people that dig technology? The advancemet of technology is one of the driving principles behind communism! Inept...Inept...Inept.

It remeinds me of this chick I met when I first started at University in the USA years ago. She asked me if we had television in England. The concept of technology outside of her little Rightey/Whitey-USA world was inconceivable to her..

Fucking oafs.

[kelvin]

Quote: from COMRADE RAF on 2:01 am on July 3, 2003
Amazingly dense statement BoyKKKelvin90210.

How can an economic system that does not rely on capital be faulty? Goods are produced as needed. The only thing that would stop a production flow is if the material needed no longer resided on the planet. As no one profits monetarily from a communist economic system, there cannot be a "faulty" one. The only issue would be providing accurate census information to the state and timely product requests from local community governments. No one is trying to fuck anyone over in a communist system KKKelvin. It's an illogical affirmation as these goods are only valuable to the user and are available to anyone. No one person "gets" while one "does not get" The "compete with your neighbour mentality" essentially is abolished.

I also want to address another bloke..I can't remember if it is in the early portion of this thread or the other thread boyKelvin started about this exact subject.

People asuume a communist society does without "luxuries" I believe the person said there would be no cars, televisions, etc...What are you thinking son? Are you saying communists don't like to drive cars? Don't like to use electric tin openers? Don't like to watch the Tele?

What is the matter with capitalists? You think you are the only people that dig technology? The advancemet of technology is one of the driving principles behind communism! Inept...Inept...Inept.

It remeinds me of this chick I met when I first started at University in the USA years ago. She asked me if we had television in England. The concept of technology outside of her little Rightey/Whitey-USA world was inconceivable to her..

Fucking oafs.

Nice guess. You really don't know.

"How can an economic system that does not rely on capital be faulty? Goods are produced as needed. "

The experiment has never succeded, so you don't know if it will work.

[Charlie Goth]

The best way to 'make' people work is to be proactive not to threaten them if they refuse to work. Find them a job they want to do.
If there is anyone left who refuses point blank to work, choosing instead to leach on the good nature of society why not just throw them out of the country? If they later realise they've made a mistake, let them back in.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Kelvin you are an imbecile.

Xprewatik RED-
"Society needs options, I guess. Also because I' m 15 I always believe and can't stand it when people tell me how to live."

Only 15? What a shocker! I just didn't see that coming. Your age was obvious son.


hegemonicretrobution-
"One of the best Ideas I have seen on this site so far. Communism with an alternative of anarchy..where do I sign up? I would give communism a go, but I think I would prefer anarchy, at least at first..liveing off the land and being free it is how I live most the time now and I love it. But if the commie thing got goin then that would be good then I suppose I could tame myself a bit, I like the option thing a lot. "


[b] Another BIG shocker. This lad turns out to be a whiny hippie parading around as a communist. Truly shameful.

[Unrelenting Steve]

repeat

(Edited by Unrelenting Steve at 1:53 am on July 3, 2003)

[Unrelenting Steve]

Quote: from kelvin on 12:24 am on July 3, 2003

Quote: from COMRADE RAF on 8:12 am on July 2, 2003
Zero defect nonsene? Check the saftey record of Aeroflot:


were we not talking about a communist economy? That's what you were talking about originally...then you bring the Soviets into the picture...Make up your fucking mind son. The Soviet state never attained a communist economical platform.




Ok. Then communst have never had any experiece building safe, durable, and reliable goods within the context of thier economic system. Sound to me you need to go and do more homework before you impose an incomplete and faulty economic system on the world.


Your right, I did want to see communism being used but now that I see its would be imposing a faulty economic system, shit your right, Id rather have economic slavery, people starving in Africa, I mean I was really loosing sight of the real important things in life, a perfect economic system

[Kapitan Andrey]

To my mind it's better to make good conditions for work!!!
And people will work!!!

Look at Finland, Switzerland, Sweden, Norway(I'm not sure)!!!
Big taxes, but HIGHEST level of life !!!

[kelvin]

Quote: from COMRADE RAF on 2:20 am on July 3, 2003
Kelvin you are an imbecile.



Then show to me which parts of your model you outlined have worked before?

Nice argument, but it has never been put to any test.

"No one is trying to fuck anyone over in a communist system KKKelvin. "-RAF

Again you don't know because the experiment has never been done. Your guessing.

[Vinny Rafarino]

We have already answeed these questions of yours in this thread.

Proving my hypothesis that you KKKelvin are an imbecile.

[quote]The best way to 'make' people work is to be proactive not to threaten them if they refuse to work. Find them a job they want to do.
If there is anyone left who refuses point blank to work, choosing instead to leach on the good nature of society why not just throw them out of the country? If they later realise they've made a mistake, let them back in. [/quote

It has been shown that individuals with extreme subversive views will only continue their efforts outside the state and will stop at nothing in their attempts to undermine the revolution.



(Edited by COMRADE RAF at 10:19 am on July 3, 2003)

[Xprewatik RED]

Death camps will turn the families of the dissidents into revolutionaries.....It will create extreme anger, if there is no terror than there will be no need for such items....Obviously you did'nt read my post, I said kicked out of society. He would still be monitored and around other people, just he wouldn't be a part of the system.

[Guest1]

Would you just shut the fuck up RAF? You really think you're so much better than everyone else, kinda explains why you're such an authoritarian. Fuck man, go back a few pages and you'll notice I was defending you from personal attack, saying our disagreements are disagreements between comrades. Was I right? Or do you not consider us "Hippies" comrades? From where I stand, SON , the only person here who seems to know shit all about Communism and history is you. I'm not looking to change masters, I'm looking to be rid of them once and for all, and you forget that's what Communism is about.

Fucking prick.

[Xprewatik RED]

Wow, RAF your amazing, you have the ability to insult people. A trait learned before begining school. Is your foundation of sand shifting beneath your feet? Oh no, your calling people a hippy; I guess you won the debate. Comrade RAF you act as if you already are higher than us, calling everyone son. But face it your a nobody, and how old are you?

[Vinny Rafarino]

It appears the natives are restless. Thanks for your comments C$M. I did not think you had it in you. Whether or not I consider you "hippies" as comrades will depend on you. If you believe in advancing it the party's goals by any means necassary then yes, you are a comrade. If you prefer to simply talk about what you feel is the best "communist" philosophy over a sack of weed while gathered around a campfire singing grateful dead songs then no I don't consider you a comrade. Sometimes the truth does indeed hurt doesn't it? The overall goal of communism is the abolishment of the state. I don't see that happening anytime soon, or even ever at all. I Think Comrade Lenin's assumption that the proletariat will eventually be able to govern themselves is a fallacy created by a strong desire in Comrade Lenin to see communism work exactly as penned by Marx and Engels. It'as okay C$M, I understand not everyone is strong enough to lead.

Well now XRed.

What exactly is a "death camp"? I find it bvery amusing you have now twisted the concept of labour camps as I have described them and now labeled them "death camps" Do you work for Fox News by any chance? The only one talking about "death camps" is you, yet you would like to portray this propagandic drivel as coming from me. Once again, you should be ashamed of yourself boy. I'm 35. If you think I'm a nobody within the party then you certainly are the equivalent of a flea on the arm of that "nobody". I bid you all the best with your little "living off the land" adventure.

(Edited by COMRADE RAF at 6:31 pm on July 3, 2003)

[Guest1]

Yes, that's exactly what I do, SON , I sit around smoking weed all day and expect the revolution to come about on its on. Fuck you, I've sacrificed alot to see a better future, and you come around and just belittle all of it. Tell people they're worthless and know nothing. Look around you, there's better ways to get your point across. You're not the only authoritarian here, and I respect and stand up for most of them. You, however, insist on going beyond simple political disagreement. If you continue acting as if better than everyone else, you are no comrade of mine. Your posts are thoroughly drenched in elitism. I can see it dripping off the page like the blood spilt by "the party". We don't work for "the party". In fact, FUCK the party!. Our goal is to serve the people and better their lives through respect, justice and equality. You have clearly lost site of that.

(Edited by Che y Marijuana at 3:12 pm on July 3, 2003)

[Xprewatik RED]

"What exactly is a "death camp"? I find it bvery amusing you have now twisted the concept of labour camps as I have described them and now labeled them "death camps"

Labour camps throughout history have been places of death. You desribe inprisoning the rebellious worker. This obviously means he was free thinking, eh? Don't try and soften the word labour camp, its always been a horrible place. Locked, in the far out reaches of society watched by troops, long forgotten. Surrounded by barbed wire, as your family must live with your absence, for your mere free thinking.

"I bid you all the best with your little "living off the land" adventure. "

I never said living off the land, because i dont believe in that. I don't believe technology is bad. I just believe humans can exist without a powerful government. If you don't believe that, fine. A community of factories, farms, medical research facilities, housing, mines, other resource extracting areas, and entertainment facilities. Self-sufficient and content. If people want to live off the land, than let them. It doesn't mean they are less.

Comrade RAF you think you can lead suddenly? It doesn't take much to be a strong dictator. Sure, you can order censorship and strict control allowing no free thinking. Sure you can inprison free thinkers, and kill them. You can use forced labor also. But this doesnt make you special.


"If you think I'm a nobody within the party then you certainly are the equivalent of a flea on the arm of that "nobody". "

Well. im sure an important party memeber like yourself, must have better things to do than debate a kid over the internet on a forum. Or is your party just so open to the people? I mean some go to rallies, some prepare revolutions, and of course you can't forget argueing with people half their age. Im sure you are a very respected fellow amongst your peers.

[Al Khabir]

It was "the party" that betrayed the spanish workers state during the civil warand handed the country to Franco. It was "The Party" who seem to spend their whole time talking Stalinism and the party who think that by whipping and starving people it will get them to work. Why was it that the only time that the Soviet economy (under your idol Stalin) worked was during the second world war?

Which party in particular are you a part of? The name, I mean, and in what country? I will be very interested to see your reply.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Well you knoe C$M I understand your frustration son. And since were now playing the "fuck you" game. Go fuck yourself C$M. I would also suggest removing Comrade Che's name from your screen ID. I don't feel you represent at all his vision of the new model of man.
Now is thefact being that you don't work for the party or is it really that the party would not have you? I would like to see a listing of your "sacrifices" for a better future. You have had your opportunity to bring about revolution for the people. All you have done is sucessfully destroyed the concept of socialism and have made our ideals the laughing stock of the globe. Do you know what would benifit the people now C$W? Putting down the hash pipe and picking up a rifle.

[elijahcraig]

RAF, you sound like a Stalinist, not a Communist.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Well if you think Stalin was not a communist then you do not understand the works of Comrade Lenin.

[elijahcraig]

If Communism is State Capitalism, then Stalin was a Communist; but it's not, you're wrong, and you sound like an elitist, telling people "Lenin said this" and "Stalin was that", when the facts of the history show the truth: Stalin ruined Communism in Russia. Lenin hated Stalin, he like Trotsky. And for obvious reasons.

[elijahcraig]

If Communism is State Capitalism, then Stalin was a Communist; but it's not, you're wrong, and you sound like an elitist, telling people "Lenin said this" and "Stalin was that", when the facts of the history show the truth: Stalin ruined Communism in Russia. Lenin hated Stalin, he liked Trotsky. And for obvious reasons.

[Guest1]

I have never sought to work with any party. None of the ones where I live are both ideologically reasonable and active. I don't fool myself into thinking I am a guerrilla, a fighter, and neither should you. Unless of course, you happen to carry your laptop with you in the jungle.

I have been expelled, once from a high school for radical views, and once from college for organizing rallies and forgetting work. My relatives pretty much act like they don't know me, being all religious muslims. I almost got stabbed once in Jordan for my views, by my own cousin. I have gone through isolation, and my entire household is under surveillance by CSIS, for political reasons.

Once again, SON , stop pretending you are somehow the valiant hero everyone should look up to. All I have seen from you is a stern commitment to make the people's lives a living hell.

Che would never have supported such a betrayal.

(Edited by Che y Marijuana at 11:29 pm on July 3, 2003)

[kelvin]

Quote: from COMRADE RAF on 10:13 am on July 3, 2003
We have already answeed these questions of yours in this thread.

Proving my hypothesis that you KKKelvin are an imbecile.

[quote]The best way to 'make' people work is to be proactive not to threaten them if they refuse to work. Find them a job they want to do.
If there is anyone left who refuses point blank to work, choosing instead to leach on the good nature of society why not just throw them out of the country? If they later realise they've made a mistake, let them back in. [/quote

It has been shown that individuals with extreme subversive views will only continue their efforts outside the state and will stop at nothing in their attempts to undermine the revolution.



(Edited by COMRADE RAF at 10:19 am on July 3, 2003)


Exactly when and where has this policy ever been implemented. If it never has, then you don't know if it will really work that way.

[elijahcraig]

RAF's a stalinist, he's useless as far as I am concerned. Don't bother with him.

[Al Khabir]

I would just be interested to know which party it is he claims to be part of, and his real age.

[Xprewatik RED]

Well as i said before he is obviously a very important and busy party memeber i mean, its not like he just argues people on forums. ;)

[Vinny Rafarino]

This should be a nice long post. There are quite a few questions from you kids I need to answer.


XRed-
Labour camps throughout history have been places of death. You desribe inprisoning the rebellious worker. This obviously means he was free thinking, eh? Don't try and soften the word labour camp, its always been a horrible place. Locked, in the far out reaches of society watched by troops, long forgotten. Surrounded by barbed wire, as your family must live with your absence, for your mere free thinking.

I see you believe in letting dissidents and counter-revolutionary subversionists run rampant within the state. That ideal is contrary to Lenin's works. Perhaps you need to do some research.

I never said living off the land, because i dont believe in that. I don't believe technology is bad. I just believe humans can exist without a powerful government. If you don't believe that, fine. A community of factories, farms, medical research facilities, housing, mines, other resource extracting areas, and entertainment facilities. Self-sufficient and content. If people want to live off the land, than let them. It doesn't mean they are less.

If you will notice in my original post I quoted hegemonicretrobution as making this statement. Please read the posts before applying a your rants to the thread.

Well. im sure an important party memeber like yourself, must have better things to do than debate a kid over the internet on a forum. Or is your party just so open to the people? I mean some go to rallies, some prepare revolutions, and of course you can't forget argueing with people half their age. Im sure you are a very respected fellow amongst your peers.

I'm here for one reason only. There is planty of information regarding this in the threads of this board. Read them.

Elijah-
If Communism is State Capitalism, then Stalin was a Communist; but it's not, you're wrong, and you sound like an elitist, telling people "Lenin said this" and "Stalin was that", when the facts of the history show the truth: Stalin ruined Communism in Russia. Lenin hated Stalin, he like Trotsky. And for obvious reasons.

I don't believe I have read a post here yet that had contained as many fallacies and utter nonsence as this one here. You need a medal for this one.

If you knew anything about the practise of Communist economics you would kjnow you cannot create a communist state with a communist economic platform from a fuedalistic society. Your comment was pure ignorance. Lenin in no way "hated" Stalin. You must be referring to the "Stalin is rude" statement made by Comrade Lenin. Are you for real? I love when Liberals bring this up. Please research Comrade Lenin's views on Trotsky. You will find he had no love for this counter-revolutionary. What are you thinking son?

CYM-
I have never sought to work with any party. None of the ones where I live are both ideologically reasonable and active. I don't fool myself into thinking I am a guerrilla, a fighter, and neither should you. Unless of course, you happen to carry your laptop with you in the jungle.

Who said anything about the jungle? I thought you would have known better.

you are somehow the valiant hero everyone should look up to. All I have seen from you is a stern commitment to make the people's lives a living hell.
Che would never have supported such a betrayal.

You should look up to me. It's people like me that keep communism from falling by the wayside. I think your perception of Comrade Guevara is a bit jaded. In the early eightees I worked with individuals in Mexico City that actually knew and worked with Comrade Guevara. He was nothing like you think. If you think J.V. Stalin was a viscious man when it came to subversionists, I hate to break this to you but Comrade Guevara's visciousness paled Comrade Stalin's.

Al Khabir-
It was "the party" that betrayed the spanish workers state during the civil warand handed the country to Franco. It was "The Party" who seem to spend their whole time talking Stalinism and the party who think that by whipping and starving people it will get them to work. Why was it that the only time that the Soviet economy (under your idol Stalin) worked was during the second world war?

Which party in particular are you a part of? The name, I mean, and in what country? I will be very interested to see your reply.

This first portion of your post is pure propagandic drivel.

As to the second portion, I have been a member of many communist parties over the years. Currently The two major ones are NCP in Britain the RCP in Britain and the US and the BR. I doubt you have even heard of these. I've have been a member of the communist party since 1983, the BR since 1984. I'm 35. You get no more than that son. If you are interested in joining any of these movements, please feel free to PM me.

Well I hope that answers the questions of the kiddie-commies hitherto. I am sure there will be quite a few factless rants from you kids in the upcoming posts to address, so I'm sure I will be teaching you boys a few more lessons in actual real-life communism in the immediate future.



(Edited by COMRADE RAF at 11:25 pm on July 4, 2003)

[Xprewatik RED]

"I see you believe in letting dissidents and counter-revolutionary subversionists run rampant within the state. That ideal is contrary to Lenin's works. Perhaps you need to do some research"

So you suggest they(free thinkers and the lazy) be eliminated, or isolated from society instead? Segregated from their fellow man? I guess you don't believe in people having opinions or people being able to think or voice their opinions. You believe people either blindly support their nation ,get out ,or are shot? That sounds alot better than Capitalism, an oppressive regime, great!
But now they are called Communists?

[Al Khabir]

RAF: freedom is far more important than any sort of ideal. Plato pointed out that Justice is doing your job and not interfering with others as they do theirs. Forming my philosophy around this I believe that anything is acceptable as long as it does not impinge on other workers. Both capitalism and your variety of communism are counter to this.

Would you rather see peopel free and happy or opressed? Yes camps for counter revolutionaries would be required at first, but only for detainment and certainly not later on. I agree with you on one point at least.

[Vinny Rafarino]

So you suggest they(free thinkers and the lazy) be eliminated, or isolated from society instead? Segregated from their fellow man? I guess you don't believe in people having opinions or people being able to think or voice their opinions. You believe people either blindly support their nation ,get out ,or are shot? That sounds alot better than Capitalism, an oppressive regime, great!
But now they are called Communists?


"free thinkers" were responsible for the fall of the Soviet Union. If Comrade Lenin's original policies were followed The CCCP would still be a State of the people.
If your views are counter-revolutionary to the party than you are not thinking correctly.

RAF: freedom is far more important than any sort of ideal. Plato pointed out that Justice is doing your job and not interfering with others as they do theirs. Forming my philosophy around this I believe that anything is acceptable as long as it does not impinge on other workers. Both capitalism and your variety of communism are counter to this.

"My brand of communism" Is exactly that of comrade Lenin's brand of philosophy with simple economic adjustments for the modern era. Economic platforms do not hinder the political "pureness" of Leninism.

Did I ever state that labour camps and purges would be required throughout the entire existence of the communist state? No I did not. I suggest reading this thread from the beginning.




(Edited by COMRADE RAF at 8:46 pm on July 5, 2003)

[Al Khabir]

As the ruling Party it would be our duty to spend the publics hard earned money or resources (however you see it) to causes that would benefit the public. Would it not be cheaper to simply allow the lazy to starve to death if they will not work? Just make sure they have the option of going back to the organisation to say "now I want to work!"
Questions are very important in our society. Thanks for answering them at least.

[Xprewatik RED]

"If your views are counter-revolutionary to the party than you are not thinking correctly."

So free-thinkers are not thinking correctly(sounds like something our Capitalist society says)? What should happen to the dissendents.

If a group of workers demand a pay wage (if your brand of Communism has currency) and a factory goes on strike (like seen during the Polish Solidarity Movement) how would you deal with the workers?

If a party offcial did something wrong, how would this official, (lets say a very important one), be punished? Would he be treated like an average man or would he be aquited from any troubles based on the fact that he is a party member? If the dictator becomes violent and does nothing but hinder the nations growth, how would he be dealt with? Would the people have to wait till his death in fear of ,"Counter-Revolutionary", Labor Camps.

The bottom line how will the !PARTY! be kept under control, so that the !PEOPLE! are not !OPPRESSED!.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Khabir. Your last statement was worthless.


XRED.

Again. My postition is that of Comrade Lenin. His position was that of Marx and Engels. If you are not versed in their ideals then You are only embarrassing yourself by pothering to post on a socialist message board. It appears you have no knowledge of working Communist policies or Communist economics (yes son there is a difference between the two) and simply want to sit and whine about your poor old grandmother. My advice to you;

Stop living in the past

Stop listening to western propaganda

Stop whining

Research Marxism and Leninism

Khruschev was a "free thinker". He collapsed a world superpower by allowing other "free thinkers" to form subversioninst groups just because the west demanded it. You two lads are simple tools of the bourgois.

The Capitalist party thanks you for your good work.

[Bush is a capitalist]

XRed: Don't tell me you support "Solidarity" (some pro-Christian trash the Pope cheered on), because that will simply put you up there with Gorbachev and Xiaoping.

[Kapitan Andrey]

Oh-oh-oh!!! What am I see here!?

Commies are quarelling!!! Ha-ha!
DIVIDED YOU FALL!!! :biggrin:

[Xprewatik RED]

XRed: Don't tell me you support "Solidarity" (some pro-Christian trash the Pope cheered on), because that will simply put you up there with Gorbachev and Xiaoping.

No Im not religous, I am an atheist. I was drawing an example, of a protest.

I don't believe in creating a new society called Communism, that has classes. A monolithic societ based still on greed and power.

[Vinny Rafarino]

RedX - Please provide some detail on how communism has "classes" and is based on "greed and power".

[elijahcraig]

I really don't know what to say, RAF is foaming at the mouth. Making an ass out of himself. This is what happens when someone puts to much faith in anything. You are now supporting repressive governments, not the people as you should. A 35 year old "communist" seating at the computer typing insults to teenagers, what a freedom fighter. You are pathetic, you are the reason communism failed. You are counter-revolutionary because you are applying a double standard to your hero Stalin. He idolized Hitler for fuck sakes!!!!!!! That is fascist state capitalist bullshit. And your misrepresentation of Lenin's teachings is horrifying. All 38 or so volumes read, no sight of killing free thought, as your signature suggests. You are a Stalinist Fuck.

[Xprewatik RED]

I'll give you class examples....
List class levels and who had a better life in the USSR from 1->best 3->lowest

a) Head of KGB
B) Head of Police of Kyiv
c) Teacher
d) fireman

Greed Power

Tell me why did people strive to reach the top?
So they could have a driver and a Volga(Russian car)?
Or become a teacher and not have a car at all.
Some officials had a phone in their car(a big incentive).
Party members got bigger apartments, as the average Soviet lived in a progect.

[Hegemonicretribution]

Wow this really kicked off, I missed a bit as I have been out again for a few days ;) God those trees looked down and in need of a hug.

Actually what is wrong with an alternative way of life? Environmentally friendly, good practise if we go guerilla and am not funding corporations making consumer goods I don't agree with. RAF please don't let this post interupt you from your Coke and Phillip Morris cigarettes.

Although I have been known to dabble in cannibis I don't normally fit the picture you painted earlier.
However get rid of the stoners, the teeagers, the people you don't like and the people (there are a lot it would seem) that don't like you and you have little support here. If so few people want what you propose then maybe it wasn't such a good idea.

[Ghost Writer]

To answer your question:

Profits
Respect
A chance to engage in independent thinking
Encouragement
A challenging environment
Competition
A clearly defined task
Good leadership
A global picture of the utility of the product being created
Freedom
National pride
A chance to excell and advance

Just to name a few

[Douche the Bagger]

Most of the arguements I have read about in the latter pages of the thread concerns over the treatment of these "free thinkers" and/or "counter-revolutionaries." So the question is: How do you satisfy the ones who bare the biggest threat to current form of government. I would suggest open community debates for which the people share its concerns. This resembles a form of democracy, which is meant to used for the good of the whole like communisim/socialism. But in every country and in every struggle, there will be those who are power hungry(people that might try to take control monopolize a market or industry) and are the ones that would most fit the description of "free thinkers/ counter revolutionaries." These types of people, I believe are the people that RAF suggested are the ones that would be re-educated. I rather suggest that they be deported to a third world country, such as Africa maybe to serve as slaves under some other Capitalist/ oppressive nation.
But what I was tought under the poor school system in the states is that, the main problem of Communism is getting people to work. If life was good and people worked the bare minimun number of hours, this would leave much leisure time. This can be very dangerous or very good, depending on how time is spent. This should be another big agenda of the people and could be a whole nother topic/thread.

[Vinny Rafarino]

People placed in exile will stop at nothing to bring about disaster for theose responsible for the exile. Their subversionist efforts against the state will actually increase.

[Douche the Bagger]

No.... The best medicine for the disillusioned is a reality check, a does of complete anarchy, holding them selves responsible for their own survival. In a sense; bringing them back to thier roots.

[Vinny Rafarino]

I am sorry friend but basic human psychology would prove otherwise.

[CubanFox]

Quote: from COMRADE RAF on 11:03 pm on July 11, 2003
People placed in exile will stop at nothing to bring about disaster for theose responsible for the exile. Their subversionist efforts against the state will actually increase.


Exactly. Exile doesn't destroy the subversionist, it just moves him elsewhere.

[Douche the Bagger]

Perhaps both of you are right. Truthfully I find it silly though. Exile strips people of power as well as a bullet to the head but what is most offensive is the tone you take in your responces, as if you were on the defensive and of whom?... The bourgeois, ex-billionaires and any enemy of socialist, maoists, lennins, communist ect... What the fuck?! These are the types of people that need to be abolished by any means. I would say death but lots of liberals also carry a sense of being humanitarians and deportation/exile is non violent. Maybe Im wrong and blowing smoke up my ass. Everyone else does, so why not eh? ;)

[Vinny Rafarino]

If you review back in the thread, you will notice quite a few hippies and liberals who instantly start ranting about comrade Stalin. Here all real communists are always on the defensive.

[Douche the Bagger]

RAF, your full of shit and you should seriously leave this community. Take your friends with you. What kind of bull shit is "real communist are always on the defensive". What the fuck?! Nice attempt to kiss ass and get all friendly with actual commies. In other posts your rant and rave against valid, well studied points and views. I see this kind of behavior in political chat rooms; quick to call others liars and insult them, trying to degrade views and discredit those who hold them, pure ignorance. In those chats, the same shit is being said in the same fashioned but by ignorant, misleading fuckhead conservatives/republicans, you know, the ones who support this fascist country.
Take your friends and get the fuck out! Your mother fucking evil, you dont represent anything on the left all you are doing is hurting the left. Your a fucking actor. Nice fucking quote from Stalin, I bet that makes you really popular with the commies you fucking FAKE!!

(Edited by Douche the Bagger at 3:38 am on July 13, 2003)