Chaos Theory - Has it debunked the idea of a deterministic u

[Ghost Writer]

Prior to the 19th century, when Henri Poincaré debunked the idea that reducing uncertainty in the reported initial conditions could effectively decrease the error produced in long-term system behavior; most scientists subscribed to a deterministic view of the material universe. When it was demonstrated by him, and later Edward Lorenz, that minuscule errors inherent in the precision of our instruments, the limitations of infinitely reporting initial conditions (it is impossible to report a number with 100% accuracy because of the nature of infinity), and the complexity of the system produces errors that propagate, in the long run, as huge errors in the predicted behavior, the idea of scientific determinism was severely questioned. These principles constitute what is known as the "butterfly effect", which is caused by uncertainty of measurement and dynamic instability. This is generally what is meant when people speak of chaos in this context.

If anything, chaos has thrown a wrench in scientists long sought-after deterministic framework of the universe, and does nothing to advance the idea that human behavior is somehow predetermined. Anyone suggesting that chaos theory provides evidence that free will is a farce does not fully grasp the concept.

The idea that chaos can be studied to predict social behavior, like market systems and historical patterns, comes from the observation that although chaos reigns in complex systems, general patterns tend to arise. This is what has allowed some scientists to continue their quest for the materialistic determinism that they seek. They say that randomness is necessary for any large-scale deterministic framework of the universe to be applied. In fact, some have implicated chaos as the reason for "time's arrow". Others question whether or not it is accurate to say that the universe is deterministic, if such randomness abounds in the universe.

As you can see, the age-old debate of free will versus determinism has not been adequately answered. Only through further investigation will this question be answered. As for now it is still hotly debated among scientists and philosophers.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

What has this to do with Opposing Ideolohies????

[Ghost Writer]

Well, since most communists happen to hate the idea of free will, it has a lot to do with oppossing ideologies. For instance, someone from a different message board gave me this argument, as they claimed that chaos theory refuted the idea that man had free will:


We are like an equation.
Our free will is based on a decision. That decision (=) is based on numerous variables we are not aware of. Their is no spur or randomness whatsoever in our deicisons. We decide things for reasons, reasons beyond our control. Therfor the decision we make is beyond our control.
Of course this could never be applied to law, and court systems.

I responded:

Show me anybody who has been able to demonstrate that there is some equation that can be applied to predict human behavior. The idea of chaos came out of systems whose behavior can be modelled using differential equations, specifically nonlinear dynamical systems. In general these types of equations are used for physical systems, not psychological systems. I have never heard anyone suggest that human behavior can be modelled in this fashion.

Even still, if you are correct and a significant model were found, how would this refute what I have already said about the problem chaos causes for the deterministic outlook?

When we think, we are using a fuzzy system to wiegh the value of all inputs, and then assertain the possible outcomes. Knowledge, and experience provides a set of heuristics that we use in our individual approaches to doing this. Unlike conputers we are able to effectively use inductive logic. Show me how there is a lack of choice in the process of induction, and I will lend your theory more credence.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Whoever said that Communism does not allow or free will is either being a prick or doesn't understand Communism.

You should join a science forum GW.

[Anonymous]

Quote: from NoXion on 10:18 am on June 17, 2003
Whoever said that Communism does not allow or free will is either being a prick or doesn't understand Communism.

You should join a science forum GW.

I beg to differ.

"The workers will not unite. Why? Because they do not care. Andy why should they? It's much easire to tell the homeless man "fuck off, go get a job" than it is to make homlessness and hunger obsolete. The answer is clear. give the workers no option force their hand so to speak. The sheep will gather when the right dog is herding them and once they are herded, control is simple."

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...c=2438&start=10 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=2438&start=10)

I believe that sentiment is quote common among communist.

[Vinny Rafarino]

I take it you are referring to me kelvin90210. I have no problem with the people having free will to do anything they wish as long as it is productive to the state, the people and the party. Subversionism will not be tolerated in any form.

[Urban Rubble]

"I have no problem with the people having free will to do anything they wish as long as it is productive to the state, the people and the party"

I usually agree with most of what you say RAF, but not this.

Say I live in Cuba and I go swimming (as I did today). Now, how does that benefit anyone but me ? It doesn't, and it definately doesn't benefit the state. I don't think everything has to be productive, it's the counter productive things that need to go.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Quote: from Urban Rubble on 3:45 am on June 18, 2003
"I have no problem with the people having free will to do anything they wish as long as it is productive to the state, the people and the party"

I usually agree with most of what you say RAF, but not this.

Say I live in Cuba and I go swimming (as I did today). Now, how does that benefit anyone but me ? It doesn't, and it definately doesn't benefit the state. I don't think everything has to be productive, it's the counter productive things that need to go.


Agreed. Allow me to re-phrase. You can do anything you wish as long as it's not counter productive to the state, people or party.

Edit:
underlining

(Edited by COMRADE RAF at 4:57 am on June 18, 2003)

[Ghost Writer]

After some debate, somebody else suggested that even Einstein searched for an equation that could be applied to every situation.

True, Einstein was seaching for a unified field theory, but that is not to say that he believed that the randomness of human behavior could be predicted. Einstein's search for god in an equation was due to his belief in Spinoza's god. Spinoza's ethics describe god as a force that is in and of everything within the universe, a infinitely unbounded force present within all matter. At the same time, Spinoza's view of god and the universe made claims that the universe was predestined, and that free will was an impossibility.

Can anyone here find the contradiction with Spinoza's explanation of god and his belief in predestiny?

(Edited by Ghost Writer at 10:23 am on June 22, 2003)

[antieverything]

...stop the sciogasm, ok?! Fuck man, you think that because you sat through a couple hours of a college course you are now an expert on everything.

The thing is, Chaos actually brings in a new sort of determinism. Remember: all things naturally go towards the state which requires the least energy to maintain...since we don't know what that is or even if applying it to social sciences is a waste of time or not...forget about it.

[mentalbunny]

Free-will and/or determinism is irrelevant for day-to-day living. Yeah sure it's interesting to sit around for a few hours and ber all deep and whatever, and go on about its implications in ethics and whatnot but quite frankly I don't give a shit if I'm controlled by my genes, my circumstances, god or controlled by nothing, it's irrelevant in my eyes, and you're just wasting time thinking about it as anything more that an interesting topic once in a while. I think our brains are too tiny to ever really find out, or at least in my lifetime, so we could be free, we could not, who gives?

[Ghost Writer]

Free-will and/or determinism is irrelevant for day-to-day living. Yeah sure it's interesting to sit around for a few hours and ber all deep and whatever, and go on about its implications in ethics and whatnot but quite frankly I don't give a shit if I'm controlled by my genes, my circumstances, god or controlled by nothing, it's irrelevant in my eyes, and you're just wasting time thinking about it as anything more that an interesting topic once in a while. I think our brains are too tiny to ever really find out, or at least in my lifetime, so we could be free, we could not, who gives?

Why chime in if you have nothing to say? So, now it's a waste of time to contemplate various subjects. Just a waste of time to enrich yourself through investigation, and education. You really are a prole aren't you?

Funny you should talk about wasting time, since you bothered to waste your time and mine with this crap that passes for conversation in your social circles. I frequently wonder if you're a blond when I read your remarks. Just out of curiosity, what color is your hair?

[Ghost Writer]

...stop the sciogasm, ok?! Fuck man, you think that because you sat through a couple hours of a college course you are now an expert on everything.

The thing is, Chaos actually brings in a new sort of determinism. Remember: all things naturally go towards the state which requires the least energy to maintain...since we don't know what that is or even if applying it to social sciences is a waste of time or not...forget about it.

So, this is your answer to everything. Just forget about it, and smoke lots of dope. Damn, to see you leading the charge, closely followed by the likes of MentalBunny, leads me to question your character. Since when is it so offensive to put forth a question? I never claimed to be an expert on everything. Your perception of me is distorted by your own insecurities. Therefore, you can not see me for who I am, and take me for some asshole because I bother to think. Well, please accept my apologies for shattering your glass ego. Jesus Christ. It's a wonder why I continue to bother with you people. The few fans that I have make it worth while, I guess. Its just a shame that I must wade through this garbage to get to them.

[Ghost Writer]

So, I take it none of you are interested in my next paper regarding Bose Einstein condensates and their implications for furthering the capitalist cause, by creating enhanced technologies?

[antieverything]

my ego? I'm not the one who goes on about irrelevent shit to make myself look smart!

[Ghost Writer]

No, you just go on about irrelevant shit, and make yourself look dumb. Besides, I demonstrated the relevance of the topic, just as I always do.

[mentalbunny]

Well taking less than a minute to express where i stand doesn't seem like a waste of time, sitting there for 3 hours going round and round, back and forth and coming out with nothing does seem like anwaste of time. I've had enough discussions to decide that I think it is perfectly possible that "free-will" as some people see it does not exist, but neither does a supreme being or similar decide all our actions, simply because I do not believe ina a suprememe being, that's something that goes on faith, which is in my eyes irrelevant for philosophy. maybe I'm wrong and stupid, but I'd rather make a practical difference than sit around consuming energy whilst failing to really contribute to the world, except by adding hot air.

But I do think it is worth saying that this is the choice I have made. And look, GW, how many people are interested! Not very many!

[RAM]

I don't belive in a fixed universe where are lives pre planned. I am more of a free will person!

[anti machine]

Quote: from Ghost Writer on 10:12 am on June 17, 2003
Well, since most communists happen to hate the idea of free will, it has a lot to do with oppossing ideologies.

I can't speak for the rest of the board, but I don't consider myself opposed to the theory of free will and don't understand why you would categorize 'communists' as espousing such a belief. I'm concerned with economic equality, not the stripping away of the human choice.

[Anonymous]

Quote: from Ghost Writer on 11:03 pm on June 21, 2003
After some debate, somebody else suggested that even Einstein searched for an equation that could be applied to every situation.

True, Einstein was seaching for a unified field theory, but that is not to say that he believed that the randomness of human behavior could be predicted. Einstein's search for god in an equation was due to his belief in Spinoza's god. Spinoza's ethics describe god as a force that is in and of everything within the universe, a infinitely unbounded force present within all matter. At the same time, Spinoza's view of god and the universe made claims that the universe was predestined, and that free will was an impossibility.

Can anyone here find the contradiction with Spinoza's explanation of god and his belief in predestiny?

(Edited by Ghost Writer at 10:23 am on June 22, 2003)


Einstein's deterministic notions were old school. We know better. His notions on this subject were incomplete.

"I can not believe God plays with dice" -Al

Al's rational side came to accept quantum, even if his emotional side still held to deterministic universe.

RAF your opinion regarding quantum and the implications it has about free choice and an observer?

(Edited by kelvin9 at 2:47 am on June 24, 2003)