Fascism - How to Fight It!

[Communist Superhero]

Read and Take Heed!

[Felicia]

yeah, then knee them in the testicular area :biggrin:

[Totalitarian]

But what do you actually mean by 'fascist' ?

[Nobody]

read what, heed what?

[Communist Superhero]

Come on Comrade, what do you think I mean by Fascist. The Mussolini-Hitler types...Neo-Nazis and fuckwits

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Hitler wasn't a Fascist.

[Felicia]

Quote: from Socialsmo o Muerte on 2:53 pm on June 16, 2003
Hitler wasn't a Fascist.
:confused:

what do you think he was then? he certainly wasn't socialist!!!!!

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Hitler was a Nazi. A Nazi is not a Fascist. Thin line, huge difference.

[Communist Superhero]

What the fookins are you talkin' about...Nazi, Fascist, who gives a fuck what you call them, their all scum. Hitler was as much of a Fascist as Mussolini was, except his ideology was about race. The same authotarian, conflict is progress bollox was exactly the same. Absolutle loyalty to its leader and violent suppression of all opposition.

How can you say that hitler wasn't a fascist, and even if the definition isnt exact, who gives a flying monkeys, they all need to be dragged from their beds and shot in the streets.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

My friend, Hitler was not a Fascist. The Nazi Party was not on the political spectrum. Yes, Hitler was intrigued by Mussolini and any knowledge of Fascism or element of Fascism used in his rule was learnt from Mussolini. However, Hitler's policy, as we know, also had Socialist elements, hence the NSDAP, so incorporation of Mussolini's policy means nothing. Yes, Mussolini was the teacher and Hitler was the student, but Hitler went to the extreme of extremes.

On Mussolini, your name of "Communist Superhero" suggests to me that surpression of opposition is not a problem to you, so why you point it out as a bad point of Mussolini's reign is beyond me. Tell me, what do you think is evil or inhumane about Mussolini and his Fascism? Or rather, what is more inhumane than anything Communist?

[Totalitarian]

Quote: from Communist Superhero on 6:26 pm on June 16, 2003
Come on Comrade, what do you think I mean by Fascist. The Mussolini-Hitler types...Neo-Nazis and fuckwits



It's a word that means many things to many people.

Personally, i consider your "round 'em up and shoot 'em" idea to be 'fascist' in the extreme.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Quote: from Socialsmo o Muerte on 10:44 pm on June 16, 2003
My friend, Hitler was not a Fascist. The Nazi Party was not on the political spectrum. Yes, Hitler was intrigued by Mussolini and any knowledge of Fascism or element of Fascism used in his rule was learnt from Mussolini. However, Hitler's policy, as we know, also had Socialist elements, hence the NSDAP, so incorporation of Mussolini's policy means nothing. Yes, Mussolini was the teacher and Hitler was the student, but Hitler went to the extreme of extremes.

On Mussolini, your name of "Communist Superhero" suggests to me that surpression of opposition is not a problem to you, so why you point it out as a bad point of Mussolini's reign is beyond me. Tell me, what do you think is evil or inhumane about Mussolini and his Fascism? Or rather, what is more inhumane than anything Communist?


Well, according to the definition of "fascism" Little Adolf fits the bill splendidly. No where in it's definition does it specify that a specific type of politcal ideals are necessary to be a fascist. Fascism is defined as such;

Fascism
1:a) A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

1:B) A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.

2) Oppressive, dictatorial control

As you see, you can subscribe to any political platform, even socialism, and be considered a fascist if you fall into any of the defined categories.

(Edited by COMRADE RAF at 5:46 am on June 17, 2003)

[Communist Superhero]

Are you people for real!

So what would you have us do then...Talk to these people. Have you ever tried to argue against someone who tells you that the Holocaust never happened. That Gay people are genetically inferior, that Poor people should be sterrilised because poverty is genetic. Are you telling me that we should allow these twats to walk around saying that it is ok to plant bombs in crowded market places and kill as many people, children included, because they are black. Or what about a pub, because they are gay.

Or how about the Jewish teacher, who had her head caved in by two NF thugs, or Stephen Lawerence. What would you have us do, try and convince them their argument is misguided. These people are not interested in debates or discussions, their interested in smashing peoples heads in. Some, arguable can be won over by logical argument, but the majority of these scumbags are violent, depraved sick individuals.

There can be no romantic Liberal sentimentality when it comes to fighting these people. You meet fire with fire. Because if I hear someone saying that the three year old child in Brixton deserved to have a nail buried into his head im gonna smash him in his face.

Freedom of speech should be reserved to those people who fight to defend it. Do you think the BNP give a shit about freedom of speech, of course they dont. These people worship Hitler and look at him as a role model. They would as sooner smash the working class and suppress freedom of speech than I would putting my fist in Nick Griffiths face.

As for these comments about whether Nazism was Fascism are somewhat disturbing. When Mussolini developed his political philosophy, he came to the conclusion that human consciousness can only advance if there is enternal conflict (survival of the fitest). The spirit and strength of a race can only become rulers of the world if they are in a constent state of war. He believed in absolute loyalty to him. he believed in subordination of all government and sociual systems under a strict order of hierarchy. He believed that the only way a society could be run is if opposition to its leader and government was destroyed, and he believed that violence was a human right. These where the teacings of Mussolini, this is what he described as Fascism. Now if you apply that to hitler, add a bit of extreme Rascism, and you see, that they are exactly the same.

As for Communism being a Fascist ideology, is completely absurd. Communism is about ultimate freedom. It calls for the emancipation of an oppressed class, and a stateless society and the overthrow of capitalism. Whereas Fascism does not believe in a statless society, because it believs that the State is the highest form of soceity, and that the state should be kept there using brute violence. It does not believe in the emacipation iof the working class and the over thowing of Capitalism, because it believe that the working class should be smashed because people should be alligned to the state and its leader, and not to your class. It does not believe in overthrowing capitalism, in fact in believes in tightening the grip of capitalism on society. Smashing the Unions and creating a economic machine based solely on the production for war.

Fascism and Communism are the extreme opposites of each other, and your implication is not only silly in a place like this, but extremly miseducated and dangerous.

[Totalitarian]

CommunistSuperhero:


Freedom of speech should be reserved to those people who fight to defend it. Do you think the BNP give a shit about freedom of speech, of course they dont. These people worship Hitler and look at him as a role model. They would as sooner smash the working class and suppress freedom of speech than I would putting my fist in Nick Griffiths face.



Your authoritarian beliefs are entirely opposed to mine.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Comrade, i will try to answer every point in your post.

So what would you have us do then...Talk to these people. Have you ever tried to argue against someone who tells you that the Holocaust never happened. That Gay people are genetically inferior, that Poor people should be sterrilised because poverty is genetic. Are you telling me that we should allow these twats to walk around saying that it is ok to plant bombs in crowded market places and kill as many people, children included, because they are black. Or what about a pub, because they are gay.

Don't be absurd. We are socialists and communists here.You need to understand that some of our mid-centre left associates prefer peaceful revolution. I however do not. Yes comrade, they deserve to be placed in the street and shot.

Or how about the Jewish teacher, who had her head caved in by two NF thugs, or Stephen Lawerence. What would you have us do, try and convince them their argument is misguided. These people are not interested in debates or discussions, their interested in smashing peoples heads in. Some, arguable can be won over by logical argument, but the majority of these scumbags are violent, depraved sick individuals.

There can be no romantic Liberal sentimentality when it comes to fighting these people. You meet fire with fire. Because if I hear someone saying that the three year old child in Brixton deserved to have a nail buried into his head im gonna smash him in his face.


I saw more than my share of violent acts from YNF and NF members. I grew up in Shepards Bush, late 70's and through the 80's. I agree again comrade. They take one of ours, we take several of theirs.

Freedom of speech should be reserved to those people who fight to defend it. Do you think the BNP give a shit about freedom of speech, of course they dont. These people worship Hitler and look at him as a role model. They would as sooner smash the working class and suppress freedom of speech than I would putting my fist in Nick Griffiths face.

I personally give a rat's arse about their freedom of speech. These individuals need to be surpressed by any means necessary. In my eyes they are subversionists and have no rights at all. It doesn't take much to get yer bottle up eh? That's good.

As for these comments about whether Nazism was Fascism are somewhat disturbing. When Mussolini developed his political philosophy, he came to the conclusion that human consciousness can only advance if there is enternal conflict (survival of the fitest). The spirit and strength of a race can only become rulers of the world if they are in a constent state of war. He believed in absolute loyalty to him. he believed in subordination of all government and sociual systems under a strict order of hierarchy. He believed that the only way a society could be run is if opposition to its leader and government was destroyed, and he believed that violence was a human right. These where the teacings of Mussolini, this is what he described as Fascism. Now if you apply that to hitler, add a bit of extreme Rascism, and you see, that they are exactly the same.

I've already covered this in my previous post.

As for Communism being a Fascist ideology, is completely absurd. Communism is about ultimate freedom. It calls for the emancipation of an oppressed class, and a stateless society and the overthrow of capitalism. Whereas Fascism does not believe in a statless society, because it believs that the State is the highest form of soceity, and that the state should be kept there using brute violence. It does not believe in the emacipation iof the working class and the over thowing of Capitalism, because it believe that the working class should be smashed because people should be alligned to the state and its leader, and not to your class. It does not believe in overthrowing capitalism, in fact in believes in tightening the grip of capitalism on society. Smashing the Unions and creating a economic machine based solely on the production for war.

Fascism and Communism are the extreme opposites of each other, and your implication is not only silly in a place like this, but extremly miseducated and dangerous.

Comrade you are simply wrong. Please review the ten planks of communism before making a post such as this.
Especially when citing the miseducation of communists that have been supporting the party, I reckon, since before you were even conceived. Get over yourself lad. You're useful, but not that fucking useful.

(Edited by COMRADE RAF at 12:12 pm on June 17, 2003)

[CubanFox]

Or how about the Jewish teacher, who had her head caved in by two NF thugs, or Stephen Lawerence. What would you have us do, try and convince them their argument is misguided. These people are not interested in debates or discussions, their interested in smashing peoples heads in. Some, arguable can be won over by logical argument, but the majority of these scumbags are violent, depraved sick individuals.

There can be no romantic Liberal sentimentality when it comes to fighting these people. You meet fire with fire. Because if I hear someone saying that the three year old child in Brixton deserved to have a nail buried into his head im gonna smash him in his face.

Anyone who goes around caving people's heads in needs to face a firing squad. Perhaps at a neonazi rally to show them that they can SAY what they want, but violence will not be tolerated.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

COMRADE RAF, whatever source you used to find that definition is quite a bad one.

Fascism does not entail racism. Mussolini was the father of Fascism. No racism was included in his policy. Nazism entails racism, yes. Mussolini was not a racist, not anti-semitic, just extremely Nationalist.

I'm not saying Mussolini's Fascism was ok at all!! Don't get me wrong, Fascist Italy was a place that should never be imitated anywhere, ever. I'm just saying we should not confuse the policy of Hitler to tgat of Il Duce.

As for your suggestion to shoot all Fascists. I disagree. Anyone who believes in Fascism (which, of course is not racism) can follow it. It is a political ideology, just like any other. Nazism, that's a different story. As it contains racist policy that is illegal in all other types of society, it is therefore not a legitimate political belief. I know Mussolin's facsism contains policy which is probably illegal in most other societies too, but not the extreme racism.

I don't think Facsists should be shot. But they should certainly not be supported.

[Communist Superhero]

So much for the education of the masses Comrade RAF. Nothing like the odd bit of patronizing to get you on your feet.

What ten planks of communism are you refering to? I was always under the impression Communism WAS about Freedom, about the emancipation of the working class, the creation of a stateless society, and the overthrowing of Capitalism.

How am I wrong...and what has my age got to do with anything. If I am wrong, then correct me, don't sound like my grandfather. And what does "Get over yourself lad. You're useful, but not that fucking useful" actually mean.

[Communist Superhero]

All this talk about authotarian views. I am not talking about encroaching on everyones civil liberties, i am not talking about destroying the freedom of press, assembly or the right of association. I am not talking about the police going around hitting students for talking about how to save whales. I am talking about smashing Fascism and Nazism. I am talking about stopping these scum bags from spouting their hateful rubbish and inciting people to start racist and anti-semetic violence.

Everyone talks about lets not support them, and ooh your being to authotarian. Authotarian towards whom. Look at who we are being authotarian against. Nazis, Fascists, Racist scum. They don't deserve the right to have free speech, because when they have it they use it against the people. Well, not white people, well, unless ur Gay or Jewish, or friends with black or asian people, then your a traitor to your race...

DRAG THEM ALL INTO THE STREETS AND PUT A BULLET IN THE BACK OF THEIR HEADS!!!

[Communist Superhero]

Socialsmo o Muerte, would you then say that it is ok to shoot Nazis?

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Socialsmo o Muerte on 7:04 pm on June 16, 2003
Hitler was a Nazi. A Nazi is not a Fascist. Thin line, huge difference.


The term NAZI refers to a party, the partys idiology was fascist. I dont know how you came to any other conclusion, but I suggest you review it after researching a little.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Firstly, "Communist Superhero", no, I do not think Nazi's should be round up and shot either. Nobody should be shot for having a belief in something. Being racist does not warrant death. Although displaying your racist views and offending and insulting others does warrant punishment; not death though. The way to deal with a Nazi is to try and educate him/her otherwise. The only reason one would follow Nazism is due to a lack of understanding of the world we live in, especially today. However it is easy to see how Nationalistic tendacies can creep into the minds of Westerners at times.

You do not shoot them. Or even lock them up. They have commited no crime.

AK47, you are wrong. Nazism is an ideology. Yes, it began as the Nazi Party just being the party. The NSDAP. However, Nazism, as argued by many historians, is an ideology in itself. The term NAZI does not refer to a party. Not any more. A Nazi is a follower is Nazism. If you think it is because of the party, then explain modern day Nazis. They follow an ideology. The ideology is not Fascism, it is Nazism.

There are fundamental differences between Nazism and Fascism. Unlike Mussolini, Hitler was mainly concerned with creating a aracially pure, ideologically unified and powerful Germany.

Of course, the latter 2 aspects of that were followed by Mussolini, but the racial purity is Nazi ideology, not Fascist. You cannot therefore say that the Nazi Party was a party which followed Fascism, not an ideology in itself. Mussolini was concerend a lot about the wealth of Italy, as Fascism is. Hitler was not concered with wealth that much. The Fasci di Combattimento set out to make Italy a great proud nation economically and in terms of military might. The National Socialist German Worker's Party set out to make Germany great and powerful through racial purity. Hence the difference between Fascism and Nazism. It's not an arguable case.

I suggest you research it a little and stop telling me to do so when I have studied European Fascism in the 20th century in immense detail. More so than any other thing in history. When you have done the amount of research I have done into European 20th century Fascism, then you will realise I am correct.

[Communist Superhero]

Fine...I can accept that the ideologies of Nazism and Fascism have their differences, as well as their similarities, but when it comes down to it, I do not think we need these petty discussions about the finer details of both belief systems. They are equally as dispicable.

Fascism is an enemy to the working class. Its jingoistic ideals attempt to pull the workers away from their international struggle. It turns worker against worker, promoting violence as a tool to attack those who are different, who are from weaker nations or "races". It is the enemy of the working class. In Mussolinis on words "...Fascism [is] the complete opposite of…Marxism..." He goes onto say "...Fascism, now and always, believes in holiness and in heroism; that is to say, in actions influenced by no economic motive, direct or indirect. And if the economic conception of history be denied, according to which theory men are no more than puppets, carried to and fro by the waves of chance, while the real directing forces are quite out of their control, it follows that the existence of an unchangeable and unchanging class-war is also denied - the natural progeny of the economic conception of history. And above all Fascism denies that class-war can be the preponderant force in the transformation of society...."

Fascism is against democracy, "...Fascism combats the whole complex system of democratic ideology, and repudiates it, whether in its theoretical premises or in its practical application..." Mussolini goes further to argue his case "...Fascism denies that the majority, by the simple fact that it is a majority, can direct human society; it denies that numbers alone can govern by means of a periodical consultation, and it affirms the immutable, beneficial, and fruitful inequality of mankind, which can never be permanently leveled through the mere operation of a mechanical process such as universal suffrage...."

So far we have seen that Fascism is not only the complete opposite of Marxism, which makes it the enemy of Marxists. It actually denies that Democracy can work.

I am a Communist, I mean, I wish for society to be transformed into a Communist one, In the words of Marx, the higher stage of Communism is what I want to see the world become. This higher stage of Communism calls for the state to "wither away", therefore a true Communist should always argue that the abolision of the State is his or her belief. Lenin said "So long as the state exists there is no freedom. When there will be freedom, there will be no state."

Mussolini says "The foundation of Fascism is the conception of the State, its character, its duty, and its aim. Fascism conceives of the State as an absolute, in comparison with which all individuals or groups are relative, only to be conceived of in their relation to the State..."

Fascism advocates the restrictions on Freedoms, which as we have seen in Spain, France and Germany what these restrictions mean. Freedom of press, speech, assemby and association, to make it a crime to speak out against your government, or believe in another ideology, forcing everyone to accept the state, and the state alone "...The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual, but the State alone..."

Communism is an international ideology, calling for the working class of the world to unite and overthrow capitalism. Yet Fascism calls for the expanse of an empire, the subjugation of foreign workers to that state. Again, turning worker against worker. "...For Fascism, the growth of empire, that is to say the expansion of the nation, is an essential manifestation of vitality, and its opposite a sign of decadence. Peoples which are rising, or rising again after a period of decadence, are always imperialist; and renunciation is a sign of decay and of death".

And last and the most important is the violence. Fascism does not advocate debate or discussion in order win over those who disagree with them. They believe in force. Brute aggression against anyone who attempts to disagree with them "...empire demands discipline, the coordination of all forces and a deeply felt sense of duty and sacrifice: this fact explains many aspects of the practical working of the regime, the character of many forces in the State, and the necessarily severe measures which must be taken against those who would oppose this...movement".

In conclusion, Fascism, not only is the antithetical of Marxism and all which we as Marxists must believe in, it attempts to crush the revolutionary consciousness of the workers and turn them against each other. Promoting the use of violence against people like me and like everyone else who comes on this website. We are it's enemies, and for this reason, we can not fight it with words. Fascism by its very nature will not accept debate. The only weapon we have to fight these people, is force, and not simply because of its anti-democratic, reactionary belief, but because it threatens the very being of class consciousness.

Extracts taken from 'Benito Mussolini: What is Fascism?'

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Thank you for proving the point I was arguing.

The very point which you were meant to be arguing against.

What was the actual point of that post? I think we all know the difference between Fascism and Communism.

(Edited by Socialsmo o Muerte at 6:06 pm on June 17, 2003)

[Communist Superhero]

I was accepting your argument, and agreeing with you.

The point of that post was to demonstrate why we have to fight Fascism, and why we can not do it simply through debate and discussion.

You could try being a little bit more polite about things mate!

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

We don't fight Fascism by shooting anyone who follows the ideology though.

[CompadreGuerrillera]

um right, a NAZI IS a facist, he has facist ideology, he is facist, end of story, sorry man

(Edited by CompadreGuerrillera at 8:04 pm on June 17, 2003)

[Vinny Rafarino]

COMRADE RAF, whatever source you used to find that definition is quite a bad one.

That would be Webster's Socialismo. Are you saying that you are so incredibly stubborn you feel your definition is more acceptable that Webster's? Get real mate.

Here's the Cambridge definition.

Fascism noun
a political system based on a very powerful leader, state control and extreme pride in country and race, and in which political opposition is not allowed

Even less dramatic that Webster's. Simply admit you are in error and move on mate as this definition does not even give an option that does not include racism.

in addition Socialismo;

I suggest you research it a little and stop telling me to do so when I have studied European Fascism in the 20th century in immense detail. More so than any other thing in history. When you have done the amount of research I have done into European 20th century Fascism, then you will realise I am correct

I personally don't know what kind of research you have done. You could have only read one article on fascism for all we know.

Fascism does not entail racism. Mussolini was the father of Fascism. No racism was included in his policy. Nazism entails racism, yes. Mussolini was not a racist, not anti-semitic, just extremely Nationalist.
I'm not saying Mussolini's Fascism was ok at all!! Don't get me wrong, Fascist Italy was a place that should never be imitated anywhere, ever. I'm just saying we should not confuse the policy of Hitler to tgat of Il Duce

Well according to Cambridge, fascism does include racism. I think their definition holds more merit.
Socialismo you are simply all opinion.

How am I wrong...and what has my age got to do with anything. If I am wrong, then correct me, don't sound like my grandfather. And what does "Get over yourself lad. You're useful, but not that fucking useful" actually mean.

You are wrong in your comparison of communism to fascism. They are not exact opposites. Communism is a political platform. Fascism is a description of a type of political platform. Meaning a capitalistic government as well as a communist government can be considered facist.

"Get over yourself lad. You're useful, but not that fucking useful"

Simply stop letting your emotions force you to make rash judgements prior to analysing the entire scenario.
If you do this then you will make a damn good soldier. If you don't then you are simply too much trouble to be bothered with. This is what age has to do with it.

What ten planks of communism are you refering to?

That would be the Ten planks of Communism that is found in the Communist Manifesto. Why am I explaining this to a communist? You feel free to quote Marx yet do not know the Communist Manifesto? Odd.

Lenin said "So long as the state exists there is no freedom. When there will be freedom, there will be no state."

Lenin was wrong. Utopian Communism is merely a fantasy that could never be applied to a state and actually work.

Yet Fascism calls for the expanse of an empire, the subjugation of foreign workers to that state. Again, turning worker against worker. "...For Fascism, the growth of empire, that is to say the expansion of the nation, is an essential manifestation of vitality

Simply not true. You are still under the impression fascism is a form of government. It is not as I have already shown. Imperisalism calls for the expansion of an empire. It is also possible to have imperialistic states that are considered to be fascist and imperialistic states that are not considered fascist.

In conclusion, Fascism, not only is the antithetical of Marxism and all which we as Marxists must believe in, it attempts to crush the revolutionary consciousness of the workers and turn them against each other. Promoting the use of violence against people like me and like everyone else who comes on this website. We are it's enemies, and for this reason, we can not fight it with words. Fascism by its very nature will not accept debate. The only weapon we have to fight these people, is force, and not simply because of its anti-democratic, reactionary belief, but because it threatens the very being of class consciousness.

I personally am not a Marxist. I am a communist.

Extracts taken from 'Benito Mussolini: What is Fascism?'

This is Mussolini's opinion of fascism and does not necessarily make it fact.


(Edited by COMRADE RAF at 8:22 pm on June 17, 2003)

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

CompadreGuerilla, you argument's lack of existence does not convince me in any way that you have any reason to beileve that Nazism is Fascism. Infact your dismissal of facts and historians views so simply as that sickens me.

COMRADE RAF, yes, you are right, my view is an opinion.

Buy my opinion has been formed with the help of esteemed historians, far more reliable sources than "Webster's" or "Cambridge". The views of Jermeny Noakes, Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke, Michael Burleigh, Frank McDonough, Geoff Leyton, Stanley G. Payne and of course Ian Kershaw have all been contributors to my formulated opinion because they all have that opinion also.

I feel, and you as a studyer of History should also feel, that the views of numerous historians so renowned as the above mentioned are far more reliable than a couple of encyclopedias. So, no, I am not "simply all opinion" and no, your sources definitions do not "hold more merit" than mine.

Again, your definition from Cambridge also contains the one major flaw. Fascism does not entail racism.

[Vinny Rafarino]

You sound ridiculous Socialism. Again, you say your opinion of "Fascism" is more acceptable than that of two dictionaries of the English language. No that's a "major flaw"

I also would like to point out a statement made by you claiming Mussolini was the father of fascism. Are you saying that the concept of fascism did not exist prior to Benito Mussolini? By this statement you are and as we all know that is false.

What is with you mid-centre leftists that makes you so stubborn?

(Edited by COMRADE RAF at 8:31 pm on June 17, 2003)

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

The fact that you are now picking at holes proves your argument is fading. "The Father of Fascism" is a term often used for Mussolini because of the way he elevated Fascism into the world's eyes. By no way is it suggesting he founded Fascism.

And, again, I am saying my opinion of what Fascism is is more acceptable than your dictionaries because I have formulated my opinion from numerous esteemed historians on the subject of European Fascism in the 20th century...would you like their names again?

-Jermeny Noakes
-Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke
-Michael Burleigh
-Frank McDonough
-Geoff Leyton
-Stanley G. Payne
-Ian Kershaw

Considering the deep research done by these men, I consider their opinions much more valid than that of a dictionary. And so should you if you are trying to study History.

[Vinny Rafarino]

The term NAZI refers to a party, the partys idiology was fascist. I dont know how you came to any other conclusion, but I suggest you review it after researching a little.


You are correct AK.

The Nazi party is a political party that indludes fascist ideals within it's doctrine.

I don't think there is any point in asking Socialism to research anything.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Because I use far more reliable sources than yourself which you cannot argue against maybe.

You are arguing against the above mentioned men remember. Not myself. I am simply projecting their opinion, whilst pointing out that it is also mine.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Quote: from Socialsmo o Muerte on 8:35 pm on June 17, 2003
The fact that you are now picking at holes proves your argument is fading. "The Father of Fascism" is a term often used for Mussolini because of the way he elevated Fascism into the world's eyes. By no way is it suggesting he founded Fascism.

And, again, I am saying my opinion of what Fascism is is more acceptable than your dictionaries because I have formulated my opinion from numerous esteemed historians on the subject of European Fascism in the 20th century...would you like their names again?

-Jermeny Noakes
-Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke
-Michael Burleigh
-Frank McDonough
-Geoff Leyton
-Stanley G. Payne
-Ian Kershaw

Considering the deep research done by these men, I consider their opinions much more valid than that of a dictionary. And so should you if you are trying to study History.


You have got to be kidding me. That's your response?
"The fact that you are now picking at holes proves your argument is fading"
You can drop the pseudo-philosopher style of speech. Grow up a little bit mate!

I always thought the term "father" meant "one who gives birth to". I reckon the dictionary is wrong on this one as well, eh mate?

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Well if we're going to delve into the complexities of the English language, then that is the reason I put it into quotation marks.

But again, that is not the argument. Infact, I think the argument has ended due to your lack of ability to respond to the points put forward.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Goodness Socialismo. what are you 12?

Because I use far more reliable sources than yourself which you cannot argue against maybe.

You feel that your list of people whom have made opinions on fascism are more reliable sources than both dictionatries of the english language when difining fascism.

You are completely and utterly blind to facts. I am done with you. We can begin again when you have more experience.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

When I read the definition in dictionaries you mean?

These men have not just created opinions. You realise that what you are doing is rubbishing years of research done by highly esteemed historians dont you?

If you are "done with me", then I will happily wait for someone to come with a structured argument. Maybe a few opposing historians...

[Communist Superhero]

COMRADE RAFF:
"You are still under the impression Fascism is a form of government. It is not as I have already shown "


Quote: from COMRADE RAF on 6:43 am on June 17, 2003
[quote]

Fascism is defined as such;

[b]Fascism
1:a) A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

1:B) A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.

(Edited by COMRADE RAF at 5:46 am on June 17, 2003)


Now it is you who is looking ridiculas. At least keep track of what your argument is.

"It is also possible to have imperialistic states that are considered to be fascist and imperialistic states that are not considered fascist."

Spain, Argentina and indeed Chilie are all examples of where Fascism where not imperialistic, I can see your point. But I do not think that this really matters on the face of it. Fascism still attempts to smash the working class, whether at national or international level and should be seen as an enemy to the prolateriate all the same.

"You are wrong in your comparison of communism to fascism. They are not exact opposites. "

In my oppinion they are both opposites, extreme oppostites. As I have already demonstrated. Twice.

"Lenin was wrong. Utopian Communism is merely a fantasy that could never be applied to a state and actually work."

I do not think that Utopian, or the Higher stage of Communism has ever been attempted. The Russian revolution reached on the beginning of the lower phaze of communism. The consciousness of the masses had not been reached, and could not be reached because of the attack of the whites and the subsequent rise of Stalin whom bastardised Lenins efforts. This however, does not mean that it isn't achievable. In my oppinion a true communist is someone who believes that this the only true communism. "From each according to his ability, to each acording to his need".

"personally am not a Marxist. I am a communist."

So what is your definition of Communism? How do you think a communist society should, or would have to be run.

"Simply stop letting your emotions force you to make rash judgements prior to analysing the entire scenario."

I think it is damn rude of you to tell me this when you don't even know me. I do not think I have said anything that could be regarded as subjective and have tried to approach the subject objectivly and with clarity.

"If you do this then you will make a damn good soldier. If you don't then you are simply too much trouble to be bothered with. This is what age has to do with it."

I am sorry that educating and trying to politcise people is so much trouble to you.

I think your name should be changed to Comrade Napolean.

Tell me, what party are you alligned with?

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

All the bold text has completely confused me....edit your post? I think you forgot to take the bold off.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Haha, I'vepicked up on your first point

Oh, the irony.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

I get the feeling, for some reason, that Comrade RAF has given us his fight anyway.

He has no weapons.

[Vinny Rafarino]

So now it appears we have two adolescents that have no real world experience doing anything besides trying not to to get caught by mum while wanking off in the toilet.

Communist Superhero, I gave you the benefit of the doubt and you dropped it right on your own feet. You are completely useless to the movement. Please either learn what it is you think you support or please become a capitalist as we cannot use ignorant boys like yourself. You believe you are educating people when all you are doing is making things worse for us by projecting your ignorance.

To all of my real comrades:
The behaviour and opinions expressed by these two so called communists/socialists does not reflect the ideals of the actual communist party.

Mr. Hero,
Please learn how to spell and then read the communist manifesto. In addition, please read all the posts in the thread. You will see that I have been stating over and over again in my debates with that other boy that fascism is not a form of government and is simply an ideal. Your previous statements on the USSR, utopian communism and Stalin are factless and purely specualtory. I will translate that to words you will understand; you have absolutely no fucking idea what you are rabbiting on about.

Goodnight boys and please do some research.

[Communist Superhero]

I do not claim to be a scholer, but I do not what I believe in. Comrade Raf, you have not only contradicted yourself but you have turned into a bit of a twat. What is all this bullshit about wanking and adolescents. YOu imply that we are both children yet you resort to criticising my spelling and calling me names.

"Your previous statements on the USSR, utopian communism and Stalin are factless and purely specualtory."

Fine, then tell me how.- I am wanting to learn. The problem that we face here is a I do not think you know what your talking about either. I would have more respect for you if you corrected my mistakes and presented facts to me. You seem to have a problem with this though, and casn only resort to this pretty squobbaling resulting in insults. It seems you jave seen that your argument is failing and have resorted to offending me. Its pretty sad.

"You are completely useless to the movement."

I do not want to be apart of any movement that you affiliate yourself too. You are neither a decent human or a good communist. I may not be an academic yet, but Iknow one thing, you are a very bad man!

[Vinny Rafarino]

Mr. Hero please take any portion of any of my posts and show us all where I have contradicted myself. You find to your dismay that I have continually been stating the same fact again and again. Fascist is an idealology and not a political party. Simply read the posts as I have asked you to.

I will no longer agrue with you either. If you would like to see my views on communism. Try researching my posts on this board. It's all there. I also again suggest reading the communist manifesto and literature on the Soviet Stalin era. What you find will shock you. You find that Stalin was the greatest Soviet and communist leader hitherto and actually gave credibility to the word itself. Please also review "The Stalin Era" by Anna Louise Strong. You will then concllude that indeed, Lenin was wrong.

Please refrain from advising people they are "not good Communists" until you clearly understand communism. I suggest researching every facet of the party and then apply logi, common sense and practicality. You will then find "true" communism.

[Communist Superhero]

Quote: from COMRADE RAF on 5:43 am on June 17, 2003
[quote]

Fascism

1:a) A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

1:B) A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.

2) Oppressive, dictatorial control


(Edited by COMRADE RAF at 5:46 am on June 17, 2003)


You then go onto dispute that Fascism was a form of government. "You are still under the impression that Fascism is a form of government. It is not as I have shown before..."

"Fascist is an idealology and not a political party"

Fascism is of course an ideology, but your idea that this ideology has not been formed into a political party seems strange. Mussolini called his party, The Fascist Party, as did Franco.

"You find that Stalin was the greatest Soviet and communist leader hitherto..."

I find this very very disturbing. He was a ruthless dictator who murdered millions of workers and forced his nation into a totalitarian state. He did nothing to advance class consciousness by the very fact he murdered and imprissoned anyone who disagreed with him. He was an advocate of nuclear weapons and was a imperialist who enslaved Eastern Europe with the same iron brutality he used to enslave his own people. With the help of two of the biggest Capitalist nations on the planet, Uk and USA. Stalin was a butcher and a traitor to the prolateriate. I do not need to do much reaserch to understand that.

"[Stalin] gave credibility to the word...[Communism]."

I spend a lot of time with people trying to dispute that Russia and the Eastern block countries where actually communism, and that true communism is about freedom and peace. if you dispute this, well fine, you are entitled to your oppinion. But I think, for all your learning, all your research and academic activities, you are a fool, and I doubt with all my heart that I will "...find that Stalin was the greatest Soviet and communist leader".

"Please refrain from advising people they are "not good Communists" until you clearly understand communism."

What is it I need to understand! Anyone who thinks that freedom and Libertarianism is not true communism is in my mind a bad communist, and certainly if your believe Stalin was a great leader

"I suggest researching every facet of the party and then apply logic, common sense and practicality. You will then find "true" communism."

I will research every aspect, you can be sure of that, if only to fight against everything that people like you believe in.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Comrade RAF, name calling like that is actually kicking yourself in the teeth. As Communist Superhero has said, you now look like a complete twat.

I also find it funny that you have completely diverted this debate away from what it was previously about...

Again, I find your demands that we research more quite tragic. I have told you the historians books I have read on Nazism, and you use your two sources....two dictionaries. It seems very queer that YOU are the one demanding I do more research.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Quote: from Socialsmo o Muerte on 9:04 pm on June 18, 2003
Comrade RAF, name calling like that is actually kicking yourself in the teeth. As Communist Superhero has said, you now look like a complete twat.

I also find it funny that you have completely diverted this debate away from what it was previously about...

Again, I find your demands that we research more quite tragic. I have told you the historians books I have read on Nazism, and you use your two sources....two dictionaries. It seems very queer that YOU are the one demanding I do more research.

I was referring to Johnny Hero. I already told you that I am done with you until you get more experience.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Please back your statement that Stalin Killed millions of people with fact. You don't know what you are talking about. You simply fell right in line with what the capitalists have spoon fed you. In short, you are an imbecile. Provide proof or get the fuck out boy.

[Eastside Revolt]

The best way to fight facism would be to either take a bullet in the head, or to cover yourself in bullet-proof shit, and strap a massive bomb to yourself. That'll make it real hard for people to order you around.

[Communist Superhero]

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH!

[krevh]

comunist superhero: great signiture
others: you fight fachism with a gun and a knife

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Ok, Comrade RAF...

I will gain more experience. But clearly, you are the one to know where I can get this experience from, because you obviously have it. So, other than books from the authors:

-Jermeny Noakes
-Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke
-Michael Burleigh
-Frank McDonough
-Geoff Leyton
-Stanley G. Payne
-Ian Kershaw


I would love for you to give me a few recommendations. Clearly, you have read all these authors too yes?