US atrocities.

[Kukulofori]

Does anyone have a decent list?

[mykittyhasaboner]

Here's a great list of CIA atrocities, I'd love a list of US atrocities as well.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/CIAtimeline.html

[Trystan]

Dresden
Hiroshima
Nagasaki
The whole Vietnam thing
Chile 1973
Support of the Contras
The whole Iraq thing

There are others, but that's all I got . . .

A rather broad list and I'm not sure all qualify as 'atrocities', but there ya go.

[zimmerwald1915]

Occupation of the Philippenes?
Wounded Knee?

[Oneironaut]

There are countless numbers depending on how you'd define atrocity. I'll add some to the current list.

The Native American genocide
Enslavement of Blacks
The Japanese concentration camps
Governments overthrown for US corporate interests:
Hawaii
Cuba
Phillippines
Puerto Rico
Nicaragua
Honduras
Iran
Guatemala
South Vietnam
Chile
Grenada
Panama
Afghanistan
Iraq

That's all i got for now.

[Oneironaut]

this likewise may be interest.
http://marxists.architexturez.net/history/capitalism/white-book-capitalism/usa/index.htm

[mykittyhasaboner]

http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/nato.htm

http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/02/18/26448.html

[Liberte ou la Mort]

I would contest that Japanese concentration camps in the USA were a legitimate measure to stop attacks on American home soil (see Black Dragon Society).

I also think, although I didn't always, that the two bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were an unpleasant necessity. I'm sure that this opinion isn't popular but then again this isn't a popularity contest.

I mean no disrespect to people of Japanese descent. I think when viewed as to what the Japanese did in Manchuria then it pales in comparison.

I do think that the bombing of German cities was an atrocity as I don't think it brought an end to the war any sooner.

I am a New Zealander and I am eternally grateful for the actions of the USA during WW2. If it wasn't for the actions of those young men then I possibly wouldn't have the freedoms that I do have today.

[Holden Caulfield]

was it the 'My-Lai' massacre in vietnam?

[Oneironaut]

I would contest that Japanese concentration camps in the USA were a legitimate measure to stop attacks on American home soil (see Black Dragon Society).

I also think, although I didn't always, that the two bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were an unpleasant necessity. I'm sure that this opinion isn't popular but then again this isn't a popularity contest.

I mean no disrespect to people of Japanese descent. I think when viewed as to what the Japanese did in Manchuria then it pales in comparison.

I do think that the bombing of German cities was an atrocity as I don't think it brought an end to the war any sooner.

I am a New Zealander and I am eternally grateful for the actions of the USA during WW2. If it wasn't for the actions of those young men then I possibly wouldn't have the freedoms that I do have today.

I got sick to my stomach after reading your post.

Directing two atomic fucking bombs on civilians pales to what the Japanese did in Manchuria? I am not apologizing for the Japanese actions' in Manchuria, they were horrible. 170,000 people killed instantly with countless more deaths due to the fallout and its effects are still felt today. That was totally worth it!!!!

Japan was not going to win the war. The US didn't want to sacrifice American troops and decided to eradicate Japanese civilians to force their surrender.

You seem to be against war, which is a good thing. I don't understand how you give support to the largest war monger of them all, the US!

[jake williams]

was it the 'My-Lai' massacre in vietnam?
Was it the "invasion" and "decade-long war" and "killing 5 million people" in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia?

American atrocities are innumerable. If I made anything close to a sensible list my computer would die before I finished typing it out.

[Kukulofori]

I would contest that Japanese concentration camps in the USA were a legitimate measure to stop attacks on American home soil (see Black Dragon Society).

I also think, although I didn't always, that the two bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were an unpleasant necessity. I'm sure that this opinion isn't popular but then again this isn't a popularity contest.

I mean no disrespect to people of Japanese descent. I think when viewed as to what the Japanese did in Manchuria then it pales in comparison.

I do think that the bombing of German cities was an atrocity as I don't think it brought an end to the war any sooner.

I am a New Zealander and I am eternally grateful for the actions of the USA during WW2. If it wasn't for the actions of those young men then I possibly wouldn't have the freedoms that I do have today.

Nice Hitler logic there.

You know the Japanese people who did Manchuria aren't the same ones that got nuked or interned right?

[#FF0000]

I would contest that Japanese concentration camps in the USA were a legitimate measure to stop attacks on American home soil (see Black Dragon Society).

I also think, although I didn't always, that the two bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were an unpleasant necessity. I'm sure that this opinion isn't popular but then again this isn't a popularity contest.

I mean no disrespect to people of Japanese descent. I think when viewed as to what the Japanese did in Manchuria then it pales in comparison.

I do think that the bombing of German cities was an atrocity as I don't think it brought an end to the war any sooner.

I am a New Zealander and I am eternally grateful for the actions of the USA during WW2. If it wasn't for the actions of those young men then I possibly wouldn't have the freedoms that I do have today.

You know that Truman actually got a report that said that the Japanese were pretty much ready to surrender and the atom bomb wasn't necessary?

You also know that Japan had no air force, no navy, and no metal to rebuild either at that point too, yeah?

And I'm sure you know that, uh, an individual can't be held responsible for the crimes of others, just because they have skin color in common.

[Liberte ou la Mort]

Yes Japan was ready to surrender. A conditional surrender. The Generals that instigated the war would have been untouchable and Hirohito would have remained in charge.

Japan had over 150 divisions ready to defend the mainland. Japan had no navy or airforce during Iwo Jima where 6,000 American men still lay buried. The same was true for Okinawa where 50,000 allied troops were wounded and 12,000 killed.

Sure there were other reasons, such as showing the Soviets that they had the bomb.

The predicted casualties for a mainland assault on japan were estimated at 500,000 conservatively and 1,000,000 at most.

I used to think that the bombs dropped on Japan were not necessary but I changed my mind after reading and studying the subject.

Japan committed atrocities that I consider were on par or worse than Nazi Germany.

I am a pacifist at heart. I think war is awful and I count myself very lucky to have never experienced it myself.

To ask the USA to suffer 500,000 to 1,000,000 casualties to save the lives of 200,000 Japanese, whose country started the war and while considering 36% of allied prisoners died while in Japanese hands is just a little bit too much.

It's true that the civilians that died were paying for the crimes of the Japanese Army and that these were innocent people.

The fire bombing of Tokyo was perhaps more destructive than that of either bomb with 200,000 + civilians losing their lives and no one seems to rage about that.

[ZeroNowhere]

Operation Condor?

[Pogue]

Don't praise the actions of 'the USA' in WW2, praise the actions of the individual working class soldiers who fought fascism.

[Pawn Power]

Here is a thread on the history of US imperialism which might be relevant. http://www.revleft.com/vb/american-imperialism-t5305/index.html (http://www.revleft.com/vb/../american-imperialism-t5305/index.html)

[Liberte ou la Mort]

I'm not 'praising' anyone. There is no valor in war, only death and misfortune.

[#FF0000]

Yes Japan was ready to surrender. A conditional surrender. The Generals that instigated the war would have been untouchable and Hirohito would have remained in charge.

Japan had over 150 divisions ready to defend the mainland. Japan had no navy or airforce during Iwo Jima where 6,000 American men still lay buried. The same was true for Okinawa where 50,000 allied troops were wounded and 12,000 killed.

...


The predicted casualties for a mainland assault on japan were estimated at 500,000 conservatively and 1,000,000 at most.

To ask the USA to suffer 500,000 to 1,000,000 casualties to save the lives of 200,000 Japanese, whose country started the war and while considering 36% of allied prisoners died while in Japanese hands is just a little bit too much.


Then the decision is simple. Don't invade the mainland, and accept the conditional surrender. So they get to keep their useless figurehead emperor and the generals aren't brought to justice. That's fine. Thousands of innocent lives are worth that much.


Sure there were other reasons, such as showing the Soviets that they had the bomb.

I sometimes wonder how the cold war would have turned out if the world didn't see what the atom bomb could do. Completely unrelated thought.


The fire bombing of Tokyo was perhaps more destructive than that of either bomb with 200,000 + civilians losing their lives and no one seems to rage about that.

I don't think you know me, then. :) But most people justify the bombing of Tokyo because it actually had some military importance. Industry and all that. Hiroshima and Nagasaki, on the other hand, had no importance. No industry. Nothing.

[Junius]

Don't praise the actions of 'the USA' in WW2, praise the actions of the individual working class soldiers who fought fascism.

How is it different that individual supporting nuclear attacks and you supporting individual workers killing other workers? Both were in the name of anti-fascism. Both were a betrayal of internationalism.

[ZeroNowhere]

Don't praise the actions of 'the USA' in WW2, praise the actions of the individual working class soldiers who fought fascism.
I prefer 'mourn all of the workers who had to die.' That's just because I'm morbid, though.

[Liberte ou la Mort]

Hindsight is a beautiful thing.

[JimmyJazz]

Killing Hope by William Blum

[gorillafuck]

The US has committed innumerable atrocities

[The Intransigent Faction]

On Japan:

"I told him I was against it on two counts. First, the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing. Second, I hated to see our country be the first to use such a weapon."- SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER; Dwight D. Eisenhower.

"In my opinion the use of this barbarous weapons at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender."- President Truman’s Chief of Staff Admiral William Leahy

I mean come on! The Japanese bomb a legitimate military target (albeit without declaring war) in the form of an offshore naval base, so the United states retaliates by bombing the hell out of two of their major cities in a way that the effects of which can still be seen?
I certainly don't approve of Japanese actions in Manchuria, or the rape of Nanking, but as has been said, countless civilians who were not involved in that were slaughtered.

That and the invention and use of the atomic bomb have had repercussions since, in the form of nuclear weapons, that have hardly "saved lives".

[ernie]

Killing Hope by William Blum
This an excellent reference. You can read a few chapters of this work online here (http://www.killinghope.org/).

[Plagueround]

I would contest that Japanese concentration camps in the USA were a legitimate measure to stop attacks on American home soil (see Black Dragon Society).

I also think, although I didn't always, that the two bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were an unpleasant necessity. I'm sure that this opinion isn't popular but then again this isn't a popularity contest.

I mean no disrespect to people of Japanese descent. I think when viewed as to what the Japanese did in Manchuria then it pales in comparison.


It's opinions like this that made me start searching for an alternative to liberals trying to justify things like the A-bomb. If I get a chance to call my brother tonight, I'll let him know to tell the people over there it was justified. :rolleyes:

[TC]

America's establishment as a nation was an atrocity of genocide without historical precedent, murder on a scale difficult to conceive of. The whole of its society was built on a singularly dehumanizing vast enterprise of the cruelest slavery known to human history, where generations were born and, in fact bred, as live stock, treated as sub human animals from birth to death without even the minimal dignities of personal security or socially recognized humanity afforded to slaves in prior centuries. Its borders, economy and relationship with the rest of the world were established by near continuous war of conquest in North, South, and Central America and across the Pacific and Atlantic, out of the solipsistic belief in its own destiny to rule. When all other empires finally collapsed in the 20th century, its posture towards the rest of the world that it kept in relationship of subservience was that it would rather destroy it than allow any society to escape from its system of domination into freedom and equality. Today having bled dry all major societies outside its control, it continues to feed off the world it dominates with self-entitled brutality regarding all others of no value but instrumental. This is a country that still justifies vaporizing two cities to fill the surviving civilians with such terror that they could be conquered without risking American soldiers, now applies same logic in the the razing of Fallujah, as it did at Wounded Knee, as it did for centuries of slavery. The handful of nations that approach America in the severity of their atrocities do not approach it in scale, and those that approached it in scale did not come close to its severity.

America's birth as a nation was an atrocity, it grew itself in an atrocity and it has ever since lived from by and for atrocity.

If there is real evil in the world the American nation defined and reliant on its ambition of conquest and domination is it, the 'great Satan' is not hyperbole its an understatement.

[jake williams]

America's establishment as a nation was an atrocity of genocide without historical precedent ...
I say this all the time but you articulated it really well. I wanted to give you rep but it wouldn't let me.

[benhur]

This is another problem with us leftists.

Instead of relating the atrocities to capitalism, we relate them to 'countries,' in this case the United States. This is counterproductive. Before US, British Empire was doing terrible things, Spain, France, Japan, and many imperial powers were doing the same thing that US is doing now. So it's not as if US has a monopoly over these things, they're not doing anything that hasn't been done by the imperialists before.:(

So it's quite silly to restrict these things to a specific country, and lose sight of the real issue, which is how capitalism leads to war, poverty, terrorism, etc. etc. By bashing nations, we're only antagonizing the people from those nations. I'll give an instance. If someone from UK tries to expose US' atrocities, people can always turn around and point to the British Empire:blink:, and conclude that they simply don't have the moral right to talk about American atrocities, when their country has skeletons in their closet.

Naturally, the whole thing turns into a 'my country' vs 'your country' fight, when it should've been 'cappie' vs 'communist,':) meaning our battle is ideological, and has nothing to do with nations.

[#FF0000]

words

Oh wow good post. I agree with benhur here. Overt nation bashing is pretty counter productive. Whenever I talk to people about leftism, I avoid America-bashing completely. It just automatically turns people off who would otherwise be receptive to these ideas.

[jake williams]

This is another problem with us leftists.

Instead of relating the atrocities to capitalism, we relate them to 'countries,' in this case the United States. This is counterproductive. Before US, British Empire was doing terrible things, Spain, France, Japan, and many imperial powers were doing the same thing that US is doing now. So it's not as if US has a monopoly over these things, they're not doing anything that hasn't been done by the imperialists before.:(

So it's quite silly to restrict these things to a specific country, and lose sight of the real issue, which is how capitalism leads to war, poverty, terrorism, etc. etc. By bashing nations, we're only antagonizing the people from those nations. I'll give an instance. If someone from UK tries to expose US' atrocities, people can always turn around and point to the British Empire:blink:, and conclude that they simply don't have the moral right to talk about American atrocities, when their country has skeletons in their closet.

Naturally, the whole thing turns into a 'my country' vs 'your country' fight, when it should've been 'cappie' vs 'communist,':) meaning our battle is ideological, and has nothing to do with nations.
America happens to be the major manifestation of the historical imperialist phenomenon. Yes, it's something of an oversimplification, but your analysis oversimplifies some important distinctions and nationalist tendencies, ie. in some ways America really is different, albeit slightly.

[ernie]

This is another problem with us leftists.
It may be a problem with some leftists, but not with all of us. Most people here are well aware that US capitalism is no better than British capitalism. However, imperial atrocities is a good starting topic when trying to approach somebody apolitical. I've found that it is a good way to plant the seeds of doubt on the faith a lot of Americans have on this system of government.


Instead of relating the atrocities to capitalism, we relate them to 'countries,' in this case the United States.
I don't think informed leftists do this, at least not systematically.


This is counterproductive. Before US, British Empire was doing terrible things, Spain, France, Japan, and many imperial powers were doing the same thing that US is doing now. So it's not as if US has a monopoly over these things, they're not doing anything that hasn't been done by the imperialists before.:(
That's not entirely true. American imperialism is different than all previous forms of imperialism in many important ways. It's certainly more brutal and dishonest than other empires have been.


Naturally, the whole thing turns into a 'my country' vs 'your country' fight, when it should've been 'cappie' vs 'communist,':) meaning our battle is ideological, and has nothing to do with nations.
Agreed. :)

[ernie]

America's establishment as a nation was an atrocity of genocide without historical precedent, murder on a scale difficult to conceive of. The whole of its society was built on a singularly dehumanizing vast enterprise of the cruelest slavery known to human history, where generations were born and, in fact bred, as live stock, treated as sub human animals from birth to death without even the minimal dignities of personal security or socially recognized humanity afforded to slaves in prior centuries. Its borders, economy and relationship with the rest of the world were established by near continuous war of conquest in North, South, and Central America and across the Pacific and Atlantic, out of the solipsistic belief in its own destiny to rule. When all other empires finally collapsed in the 20th century, its posture towards the rest of the world that it kept in relationship of subservience was that it would rather destroy it than allow any society to escape from its system of domination into freedom and equality. Today having bled dry all major societies outside its control, it continues to feed off the world it dominates with self-entitled brutality regarding all others of no value but instrumental. This is a country that still justifies vaporizing two cities to fill the surviving civilians with such terror that they could be conquered without risking American soldiers, now applies same logic in the the razing of Fallujah, as it did at Wounded Knee, as it did for centuries of slavery. The handful of nations that approach America in the severity of their atrocities do not approach it in scale, and those that approached it in scale did not come close to its severity.

America's birth as a nation was an atrocity, it grew itself in an atrocity and it has ever since lived from by and for atrocity.

If there is real evil in the world the American nation defined and reliant on its ambition of conquest and domination is it, the 'great Satan' is not hyperbole its an understatement.
Who are you talking about here? I hope it's the American ruling class. If so, then saying that they are especially evil is silly. They simply happened to have lived during a time that allowed them to be more brutal and to plunder more. If the Spanish ruling class had had that same chance, they would have delightfully taken advantage of it. They're all motherfuckers! Period.