Policing

[wigsa]

Just wondering what role people believe policing should play in a communist economy?I know the ultimate idea behind communism is that society would,in essence,govern itself,i.e. there would be no need for a police force as,without capitalism,there would be no desire to commit evil acts against other human beings.

However,I simply don't buy into that.There are evil people,all over the world,who will continue to harm others for absolutely no reason,regardless of what kind of society they live in.

Therefore,in a communist society,I would like to see very tough policing indeed.I think that there would be less need for police,but that the certain crimes police would be needed to fight against should be punished severely.Therefore,for example,if one individual were to unprovokedly assault another individual,a mandatory 5 year prison term would be in place.The idea would be to stop violence among the population completely.

With the knowledge that there are quite a number of lefties who despise the police,I'd like to know what people would think of my ideology on this particular issue.

[Bud Struggle]

Just wondering what role people believe policing should play in a communist economy?I know the ultimate idea behind communism is that society would,in essence,govern itself,i.e. there would be no need for a police force as,without capitalism,there would be no desire to commit evil acts against other human beings. There will always be people commiting acts of violence against other human beings--granted money is a main motive, but with the abolution of money and property there will still be lots of other motives to hurt or kill--and then again there still will ber crazy people.


However,I simply don't buy into that.There are evil people,all over the world,who will continue to harm others for absolutely no reason,regardless of what kind of society they live in. And there will be Capitalists who will be busy on RevRight.com plotting the Counter Revolution--so you had better have some kind of KGB or Stazi around.


Therefore,in a communist society,I would like to see very tough policing indeed.I think that there would be less need for police,but that the certain crimes police would be needed to fight against should be punished severely.Therefore,for example,if one individual were to unprovokedly assault another individual,a mandatory 5 year prison term would be in place.The idea would be to stop violence among the population completely. They already have "tough" policing--it doesn't always work. And what about court systems? Judges and juries? An entire legal infrastructer will be needed.

And who's going to run the police? Maybe after the Revolution the "old" police can be the "new" police--they will need jobs and they already know how to do the work.


With the knowledge that there are quite a number of lefties who despise the police,I'd like to know what people would think of my ideology on this particular issue. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. :)

[Dr Mindbender]

Just wondering what role people believe policing should play in a communist economy?I know the ultimate idea behind communism is that society would,in essence,govern itself,i.e. there would be no need for a police force as,without capitalism,there would be no desire to commit evil acts against other human beings.

However,I simply don't buy into that.There are evil people,all over the world,who will continue to harm others for absolutely no reason,regardless of what kind of society they live in.

Therefore,in a communist society,I would like to see very tough policing indeed.I think that there would be less need for police,but that the certain crimes police would be needed to fight against should be punished severely.Therefore,for example,if one individual were to unprovokedly assault another individual,a mandatory 5 year prison term would be in place.The idea would be to stop violence among the population completely.

With the knowledge that there are quite a number of lefties who despise the police,I'd like to know what people would think of my ideology on this particular issue.


Simply, the argument is that under communism the need for a police would be diminished because for the most part, 'criminality' is economically motivated and is therefore a symptom of scarcity planning.

Under a non-scarcity economy such as communism, there would be no need to steal therefore the need for a police force would decline with it.

For other grey areas, like 'crimes of passion' the anarchist argument is at least, that they could be dealt with at a local communal level where the immediate community can suggest the best reprimand for the guilty party.

Personally i think there needs to be a 'worker's police' that can be set up to monitor things but it wouldnt need to be anywhere near the size of pro-beourgiose police forces.

[Demogorgon]

The idea would be to stop violence among the population completely.

Or more likely increase it. Draconian law and order positions tend to have the effect of toughening society and raising crime rates.

criminal Justice, whether it be in a capitalist or communist society, should always focus on rehabilitation.

[Dr Mindbender]

And there will be Capitalists who will be busy on RevRight.com plotting the Counter Revolution--

Holy pig-fuck! I thought you were being light hearted with that, but that forum actually exists!

http://revright.com/index.php :scared:

[wigsa]

Personally i think there needs to be a 'worker's police' that can be set up to monitor things but it wouldnt need to be anywhere near the size of pro-beourgiose police forces.

In fairness,I think that's a statement that comes more from a distaste for everything in management rather than from genuine logic.As I've said previously,I'm a middle class person,therefore,don't have the hatred towards 'The Boss' World' that many people on this forum seem to have.There doesn't need to be a workers' police,because workers would be just as likely to commit crime as middle or upper class individuals alike.Working people are not perfect.No group of people is perfect.

Therefore,I'd argue that a state police force would still be needed,and needed to police things on a far more stricter level than we have here in Ireland anyway,as to be honest,conviction rates for murders is a shambles,something like 16%.Tougher policing is needed to disencourage violence and crime.That's what I believe anyway.

[danyboy27]

i think so far the polices forces are a good exemple of what do to, going over that would be extremely authoritarian.

lets suppose everything goes communist overnight, most of the things policeman used to do will remain, with some variation of course.

they will still chase rapist, they will stil chase people who steal stuff, still give warning to people passing over the red light, still warning people driving drunk,
they will still chase after people destroying the public property.

you can argues on certain stufff they are currently doing like arresting people smoking pot, arresting people making grow their own weed, protect private property, wehatever, i think that the current way the police make people respect the laws is working. Nowi know it work better in certain places, i know, there is some police abuse, it may be better BUT going more extreme on the policing level would be like thwe gestapo or saddam fedayeen killing political dissents.

some kind of george orwell nightmare.

[Bud Struggle]

Holy pig-fuck! I thought you were being light hearted with that, but that forum actually exists!

http://revright.com/index.php :scared:

I was kidding--I'm as suprised as you are that it actually exists. :ohmy:

[Dr Mindbender]

workers would be just as likely to commit crime as middle or upper class individuals alike.Working people are not perfect.No group of people is perfct

Don't give me this condenscending patronising horse-shit.

Poverty drives workers to commit crime. Upper and middle class individuals have no need to commit (economically motivated) crime because they're already materially stable. Wether or not you care to admit it, the big motive of crime across the board is money and goods.

You have to be pretty fucking desperate to commit an act which would potentially land you in jail. No toff in their right mind would do this, they have too much to lose.

[wigsa]

Don't give me this condenscending patronising horse-shit.

Poverty drives workers to commit crime. Upper and middle class individuals have no need to commit (economically motivated) crime because they're already materially stable. Wether or not you care to admit it, the big motive of crime across the board is money and goods.

You have to be pretty fucking desperate to commit an act which would potentially land you in jail. No toff in their right mind would do this, they have too much to lose.


You cannot attribute all crimes to poverty.Poverty is not the only thing that motivates working class people to commit crime,and money is not the only thing that motivates wealthy people to commit crime.

Rape,murder,assault,drink-driving,bestiality even for fuck sake,these are crimes that have nothing to do with the class system,nothing to do with the wealth of an individual.These are crimes committed due to flaws in oness character,and working class people are just as likely to rape or murder as middle or upper class.

So fuck you,I wasn't being condescending,I was stating a fucking fact.And it is a fact.

[Bud Struggle]

So fuck you,I wasn't being condescending,I was stating a fucking fact.And it is a fact.

Welcome to RevLeft! :lol:

Anyway, I do some prison minstry (in state prisons--I have no idea about the Federal System) and I would say that 85-90% of the people that are in prison are in for some sort of robbery (lots of it being violent) or drug possession. But for that matter a large amount of robbery is committed for the purposes of obtaining drugs.

There is hardly any crime for the purposes of food or paying the rent.

After the Revolution there should be free drugs for everyone or no drugs at all.

[Dr Mindbender]

You cannot attribute all crimes to poverty.
I didnt, i said MOST crimes are motivated by poverty.



Poverty is not the only thing that motivates working class people to commit crime,and money is not the only thing that motivates wealthy people to commit crime.
I've already conceded that several times. I realise that rape, child porn, and crimes of passion have little to do with money (although if you disect the semantics a little further its arguable that poor men for the most part are generally less sexually appealing due to their class status therefore more likely to rape). My point was that they pale into comparison in terms of incidences with the number of crimes that are financially motivated.




Rape,murder,assault,drink-driving,bestiality even for fuck sake,these are crimes that have nothing to do with the class system,nothing to do with the wealth of an individual.
YES I KNOW!!!!!!!


These are crimes committed due to flaws in oness character,and working class people are just as likely to rape or murder as middle or upper class.
Bullshit!

You're honestly telling me there would still be shoplifters, pickpockets, bank robbers or muggers if there was no poverty?

People rob banks and shops because they need money, not for the fun of it.



So fuck you,I wasn't being condescending,I was stating a fucking fact.And it is a fact.
You were being condenscending, its not my fault if you're too pig ignorant to see the obvious that poor people are more likely to steal.

[RGacky3]

It can generally be said that non-economic related crimes, i.e. crimes of passion, or crimes caused by mental health, will not be detered by prison sentances, because they arn't rational.

First we should stop giving people a rational reason to comit crime (Capitalism gives many), then we have to do our best to stop crimes of passion, and prison sentances are not only morally wrong, they don't work.

One thing in the United States that everyone loves to ignore, but is abhorent, is the prison system, our prison system, picks up people for minor crimes (selling drugs IS a minor crime), and wearhouses them for many many years, it takes people that have violent tendancies and makes them more violent. For most of those people crime is the most rational way out, and society keeps it that way. The phychological tourture that solitary confeinment inflicts on people is horrid, the American prison system is a horrid violation of human rights.

Now back to the question at hand, I think everyone should look at the Zapatista justice system, which is working much better than the Mexican state, I'll give you a hint, no prisons.

[Demogorgon]

Poverty can drive people to drug use though.

Personally I think America's appalling drug laws are almost the entire reason that its levels of incarceration are so horrifically high. A more sensible drug policy and better treatments for addiction are essential.

[#FF0000]

You cannot attribute all crimes to poverty.Poverty is not the only thing that motivates working class people to commit crime,and money is not the only thing that motivates wealthy people to commit crime.

Poverty can't be directly attributed to all crime, but there's definitely a connections. Absolutely.


Rape,murder,assault,drink-driving,bestiality even for fuck sake,these are crimes that have nothing to do with the class system,nothing to do with the wealth of an individual.These are crimes committed due to flaws in oness character,and working class people are just as likely to rape or murder as middle or upper class.

Not true. Crime rates all around are higher for the lower class. Also, those crimes can be linked to class system, though of course it's not the only factor.

Murder and assault are certainly more likely to be committed by people living in places where such crimes are common. These places also just happen to be very poor, very crowded neighborhoods. That isn't just a coincidence. That sort of environment breeds more of that behavior.

Drink-driving's an easy one. Alcoholism is common among the lower classes. Drink-driving's more likely among those who drink more. Therefore drink-driving is more likely among the lower classes, provided they have a car.

As for rape, the mentality of rapists, though not based in economic class system, is based in hierarchy and gender-roles. Men have to do certain things to be men, and women have their natural place in society. This mentality, oftentimes along with psychological issues stemming from past abuse (another product of hierarchy) is what leads to rape.

This isn't to say that the class system is the root cause of 100% of crime, but to say that there's no connection is just not true.

[Dr Mindbender]

I'd also argue that rape has socio-economic causes. A rich man is going to get consensual sex on a more regular basis than a poor man.

It doesnt matter how you cut it, that is a fact.

[bcbm]

I'd also argue that rape has socio-economic causes. A rich man is going to get consensual sex on a more regular basis than a poor man.

It doesnt matter how you cut it, that is a fact.

Are you suggesting rape is related to how much sex one gets?

[Dr Mindbender]

Are you suggesting rape is related to how much sex one gets?

i'm not saying its the only factor, but it's certainly an exacerbating one.

Take the example of prisoners or priests, for instance. Both sexually deprived, both with a tendency to be sexually aggressive.

[wigsa]

You're honestly telling me there would still be shoplifters, pickpockets, bank robbers or muggers if there was no poverty?



I never said that to begin with.Obviously there would be a far lesser amount.However,there is no way that the non existence of poverty would wipe that out completely.I have many friends who shoplift casually on a regular basis,because it's CHEAPER,not because they can't physically afford to buy whatever item is in question.I would say the same about muggers.It's not that they cannot afford to buy,say,mobile phones,it's the fact that they don't have a moral objection to threatening someone with physical violence in exchange for a material thing.Net cost for the mugger?Zero.Guilt of conscience for mugger?Zero.

People will continue to shoplift and pickpocket,of course they will.It will be a far less frequent occurrence,but the fact of the matter is that it will continue.If you can't see that then you have a very ignorant view of the world around you.

[#FF0000]

People will continue to shoplift and pickpocket,of course they will.It will be a far less frequent occurrence,but the fact of the matter is that it will continue.If you can't see that then you have a very ignorant view of the world around you.

And you have a really narrow view of the way people work. You don't see why people would shoplift as a recreational activity in a society based on commodity and scarcity?

[wigsa]

And you have a really narrow view of the way people work. You don't see why people would shoplift as a recreational activity in a society based on commodity and scarcity?


Listen.

I know people who shoplift every time they set foot in a convenience store.They don't do it for the buzz,they don't do it to make a stab at the establishment,they do it because it saves them a couple of euro.

That's the fact of the matter.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Listen.

I know people who shoplift every time they set foot in a convenience store.They don't do it for the buzz,they don't do it to make a stab at the establishment,they do it because it saves them a couple of euro.

That's the fact of the matter.

That's the fucking point, you cretin. When every penny is precious, why not shoplift if you think you can get away with it?

[#FF0000]

Listen.

I know people who shoplift every time they set foot in a convenience store.They don't do it for the buzz,they don't do it to make a stab at the establishment,they do it because it saves them a couple of euro.

That's the fact of the matter.

Oh.

Well.

Yeah.

What's the controversy here?

[Bud Struggle]

Listen.

I know people who shoplift every time they set foot in a convenience store.They don't do it for the buzz,they don't do it to make a stab at the establishment,they do it because it saves them a couple of euro.

That's the fact of the matter.

Hey wigsa,

Don't take these RevLeft Communist purists guys too seriously, your Communist "ideology" may need a bit of tweeking, but I think you heart's in the right place. Take it easy, listen a lot before you post, don't be too dogmatic--I think you might turn out to be a good Commie.

And if not OI is always looking for a few more good members of Marx's Loyal Opposition. ;):lol:

[wigsa]

That's the fucking point, you cretin. When every penny is precious, why not shoplift if you think you can get away with it?


But the thing is,these shoplifters are upper middle class people who attend a private school.Every penny is not precious to them.They are the type of people who fuel materialism and consumerism more than anyone else,as they love buying things they don't need.

They don't need to steal,it doesn't really make a difference to them whether they pay for the items or not,they just do it for the sake of it.That's why I'm saying even in a society where people don't need to steal,they will anyway,just for the hell of it,and because they can.

[#FF0000]

But the thing is,these shoplifters are upper middle class people who attend a private school.Every penny is not precious to them.They are the type of people who fuel materialism and consumerism more than anyone else,as they love buying things they don't need.

They don't need to steal,it doesn't really make a difference to them whether they pay for the items or not,they just do it for the sake of it.That's why I'm saying even in a society where people don't need to steal,they will anyway,just for the hell of it,and because they can.

They buy things they don't need for the same reason they steal when they don't need to. It's the packrat mentality, the impulse to grab up every shiny thing one can see even if they can pay for it or don't need it. People are conditioned with this through capitalist society.

[Bud Struggle]

They buy things they don't need for the same reason they steal when they don't need to. It's the packrat mentality, the impulse to grab up every shiny thing one can see even if they can pay for it or don't need it. People are conditioned with this through capitalist society.

And post-Revolutionary Communists won't be pack rats? It's a psychological trait not a Capitalists conditioned trait of humanity.

[#FF0000]

And post-Revolutionary Communists won't be pack rats? It's a psychological trait not a Capitalists conditioned trait of humanity.

Okay, saying that capitalist society is exclusively to blame for pack-rat mentality isn't correct. Throughout all of human history, food and shelter and luxuries haven't been guaranteed to people. In a communist society, all of this should be virtually guaranteed, if running industry with the intention of fulfilling need, rather than making profit, is as effective as we think it will be.

[bcbm]

i'm not saying its the only factor, but it's certainly an exacerbating one.

It may be a factor, but most research suggests it isn't a major one.


Take the example of prisoners or priests, for instance. Both sexually deprived, both with a tendency to be sexually aggressive.

Rape in prison is typically about power, not sex. There is plenty of consensual sex to be had. Priests are another issue, if you're referring to pedophilia, so it doesn't really work for an example.

[Bud Struggle]

Priests are another issue, if you're referring to pedophilia, so it doesn't really work for an example.

It think it pretty much proven that most priest/boy sex was with boys past puberty--that would be considered homosexuality, not pedophilia.

[revolution inaction]

People will continue to shoplift and pickpocket,of course they will.It will be a far less frequent occurrence,but the fact of the matter is that it will continue.If you can't see that then you have a very ignorant view of the world around you.

Why the fuck would people steal things which are free?

[revolution inaction]

Holy pig-fuck! I thought you were being light hearted with that, but that forum actually exists!

http://revright.com/index.php :scared:

yes and it has 67 posts total

[Bud Struggle]

yes and it has 67 posts total

Well somebody had to steal the idea eventually. :)

[danyboy27]

Why the fuck would people steal things which are free?

beccause...some stuff woudl be rare beccause of the quality and quantity.

or beccause you have restriction of obtaining it due to your age.

or just beccause you are suffering fromn a disease called cleptomania.

[Bud Struggle]

beccause...some stuff woudl be rare beccause of the quality and quantity.

or beccause you have restriction of obtaining it due to your age.

or just beccause you are suffering fromn a disease called cleptomania.

I just went into a guitar store today and Fender had a "knock off" Stevie Ray Vaughn Strat on sale for $17,000. (Freakin' REALLY.) Now that piece of shit (probably a REALLY good guitar--but $17,000!) is prices at that amount--woudn't you pay a bit extra for the origional?

There's a value added something to the price. Every Commie that want's it isn't going to get Stevie Ray Vaughn's old guitar.

[RGacky3]

If your using the idea that some people might be pack-rats in communism, i.e. pack-rat an irrational obsession, to justify a type of justice system, then your being silly.

[Ele'ill]

I'd also argue that rape has socio-economic causes. A rich man is going to get consensual sex on a more regular basis than a poor man.

It doesnt matter how you cut it, that is a fact.

Maybe rich broads are looser.

[wigsa]

Why the fuck would people steal things which are free?


Are you serious?Just because something is free,doesn't mean an individual can get as much of it as he/she wants.If the individual wants more of a certain item than they are personally entitled to,they will steal it to gain this extra amount.I'm not saying everyone will do this,obviously they won't,but there will still be people who want it.

This brings me back to the original point of this thread.Even in a communist society,there will be a need for a police force and I feel the law should be more effectively and punishingly enforced on the general population to prevent the continuity of crimes such as the ones mentioned in this thread.

[Mr. Conservative]

This whole 'argument' is distracting us from the real point.

Will a communist society have people in place to enforce some kind of law? If someone breaks the law will they be tried in some kind of court? If the answer is yes to the preceding two questions then how do you figure a communist society will have no state?

[wigsa]

This whole 'argument' is distracting us from the real point.

Will a communist society have people in place to enforce some kind of law? If someone breaks the law will they be tried in some kind of court? If the answer is yes to the preceding two questions then how do you figure a communist society will have no state?


I believe in communism without the disintegration of the state.I believe in equal distribution of the state's resources to every individual and the entitlement of every individual to the same rights and resources,regardless of race,gender,or any other differentiating factors.

I believe there will always be a need for a police force to prevent crime,and I believe in a communist society,policing should be stricter and less tolerant of crime than in the capitalist societies we see today.Here in Ireland,we are crying out for a clampdown,and nothing is being done.For fuck sake,we can't even walk down any of the main streets of any of our major cities at night anymore for fear of getting a bottle to the back of the head for absolutely no reason whatsoever.The scum need to be cleaned up.Big time.

[Mr. Conservative]

I believe in communism without the disintegration of the state.I believe in equal distribution of the state's resources to every individual and the entitlement of every individual to the same rights and resources,regardless of race,gender,or any other differentiating factors.

So you don't believe in communism, you believe in socialism.

Communism entails a stateless, classless society where the means of production are owned by everyone.

[wigsa]

So you don't believe in communism, you believe in socialism.

Communism entails a stateless, classless society where the means of production are owned by everyone.


No.I believe in a leninist type of communist society,differing with his ideology with regard to his ultimate goal-a stateless society where there would be no need for police as the motivation to commit crime would no longer exist.That's a load of bollocks in my eyes.However,I don't belive in a system whereby workers all own the means of production,as I don't think everyone is or could be informed enough to make educated decisions on the issues.What I believe in is that everyone is entitled to their fair share of resources and an equal opportunities in their lives.I don't believe we should have a system by which everyone has a say in the running of everything.I just think it cannot work.

[Mr. Conservative]

No.I believe in a leninist type of communist society,differing with his ideology with regard to his ultimate goal-a stateless society where there would be no need for police as the motivation to commit crime would no longer exist.That's a load of bollocks in my eyes.However,I don't belive in a system whereby workers all own the means of production,as I don't think everyone is or could be informed enough to make educated decisions on the issues.What I believe in is that everyone is entitled to their fair share of resources and an equal opportunities in their lives.I don't believe we should have a system by which everyone has a say in the running of everything.I just think it cannot work.

It seems like you believe in the Soviet system. Most leftists on this site will tell you that the Soviet Union operated under a state-capitalist system and had little to do with socialism or communism.

[Dr Mindbender]

Rape in prison is typically about power, not sex. There is plenty of consensual sex to be had. Priests are another issue, if you're referring to pedophilia, so it doesn't really work for an example.

I don't accept that priests are generally paedophiles or that they start off as paedophiles looking to get access to young boys. I think its something that happens over a period of time, and indeed most of the guilty parties are ones who start with (albeit misguided from a materialist perspective) honourable intentions. In much the same way that prison rapists aren't 'gay', homosexual rape is their only source of accessible sexual relief in much the same way that priests only have access to choir boys.
People don't go into prison ardent, homosexual rapists (unless that is what they were convicted of but common speculation would suggest incidence and conviction rate for this particular offence are equally low).

[Dr Mindbender]

Maybe rich broads are looser.

...but 'rich broads' as you put them are scarce which brings the argument back full circle. Theres not enough of em to go round all those poor prole gents.

:)