50 Irish republicans still in prison

[PRC-UTE]

50 republicans still in prison
The Irish News 17/11/08

History was made in 1998 when the gates of the Maze prison opened and
republican and loyalist inmates were freed under the terms of the Good
Friday Agreement.

But 10 years on from their early release – agreed as part of efforts to
consign the Troubles to history – there are around 50 republican prisoners
in jails north and south of the border.

Maghaberry jail has 31 inmates housed in its republican ‘separated’ unit.

The only one to have had his early release licence revoked is John Brady
from Strabane.

Released from the Maze in 1998 after serving seven years for the murder of
RUC reservist David Black in 1989, he was arrested in 2004 and charged
with allegedly attempting to kill a part-time RIR soldier two years
earlier.

The charge was later dropped by the Public Prosecution Service, which had
been due to rely on controversial ‘low copy number’ DNA evidence but he
remains in jail for the previous life sentence.

The majority of republican prisoners in Maghaberry are affiliated with
Continuity IRA, with a handful of Real IRA prisoners also held on the
wing.

Also in Maghaberry are two of the four men convicted of the Provisional
IRA kidnapping of veteran republican Bobby Tohill in 2004.

Tommy Tolan and Gerard McCrory, both from west Belfast, handed themselves
in to police in January 2007 after a period of being unlawfully at large.

In Portlaoise prison in Co Laois, the vast majority of republican inmates
are affiliated to the Real IRA.

The most high-profile of these is Michael McKevitt, serving a 20-year jail
term for directing terrorism. One of the founding members of the Real IRA,
the veteran republican has since turned his back on his former associates.

There are eight alleged INLA prisoners in Portlaoise, the majority on
remand awaiting trial for charges ranging from membership of the
organisation to possession of weapons.

Armagh man Declan Duffy is among them, having been arrested earlier this
year and charged with membership.

West Belfast man Gerard Mackin has also been in Portlaoise and is now on
trial in Dublin’s Special Criminal Court charged with the murder of Eddie
Burns in the city in March last year.

Two other republican prisoners are being held in jails outside of Ireland.

Dundalk man Michael Campbell (36) is being detained in Lithuania on
suspicion of buying firearms and explosives for the Real IRA.

The last republican prisoner in England, Noel Maguire, was convicted along
with four other men for a Real IRA bombing campaign and is serving 22
years in a prison in Cambridgeshire.

Earlier this month the Republic’s justice minister Dermot Ahern turned
down a request by Maguire for transfer to Portlaoise, saying he had failed
to prove he has family links in the jurisdiction.

[skki]

Why exactly, am I supposed to give a fuck about this scum?

[PRC-UTE]

Why exactly, am I supposed to give a fuck about this scum?

What scum?

[skki]

What scum?
IRA members

[Herman]

IRA members

Yes, because they're all "terrorists", right?

[skki]

Yes, because they're all "terrorists", right?
They are members of a party that murdered innocent people simply because of the country they were living in. And they were too cowardly and too dense to go after anyone of any particular significance.

[Dóchas]

They are members of a party that murdered innocent people simply because of the country they were living in. And they were too cowardly and too dense to go after anyone of any particular significance.

wow i thought i was ignorent but thats sad at least learn about them before you condone their actions :crying:

just a thought, do you support british imperialism in ireland?

[PRC-UTE]

They are members of a party that murdered innocent people simply because of the country they were living in. And they were too cowardly and too dense to go after anyone of any particular significance.

I don't think anyone familiar with the history would swallow that. The PIRA and INLA were known for seeking out 'prestige' targets like Lord Mountbatten and Airey Neave.

Anyway, these are the kind of attitudes Karl Marx struggled against when he was in Britain. he tried to push the English Communists to back Irish republicans rather than line up behind the imperialists and repeat their lies.

[Dóchas]

I don't think anyone familiar with the history would swallow that. The PIRA and INLA were known for seeking out 'prestige' targets like Lord Mountbatten and Airey Neave.

my grandad was there when mountbattens boat was blown up he didnt do it before you get any ideas!!

[skki]

wow i thought i was ignorent but thats sad at least learn about them before you condone their actions :crying:

just a thought, do you support british imperialism in ireland?
No. And I do not support massacring innocent British people who played no part in it. They rarely went after a political target. They just blew up nightclubs and other public places in order to injure tourism. Try blaming the people of Northern Ireland. They were the ones who kept voting to stay in the UK.

[Dóchas]

Try blaming the people of Northern Ireland. They were the ones who kept voting to stay in the UK.

actually it was due to rigging of votes by a unionist minority (gerrymandering) the average joe wanted to be independant of british rule

[PRC-UTE]

maybe a mod or admin can split the OT comments. I started this thread to raise awareness of Irish political prisoners/POW and a discussion on that topic. many are incarcerated on purely circumstantial evidence, or convicted of membership in an illegal organisation solely on the word of a garda detective and their families suffer a lot of hardship as a result.

some like Noel Maguire haven't seen their family in nine years and have been attacked in prison :scared: :crying: you don't have to agree with their politics to see that it's fucked up.

[Dóchas]

sorry, i probably didnt help

[PRC-UTE]

sorry, i probably didnt help

I didn't either lol :blushing:

[Dóchas]

anyway back to what this thread is about...

how many people are detained and charged with membership of any parts of the IRA at this present moment?
btw are you a member of éirgí?

[Saorsa]

I doubt there's any members of the IRA (I assume you mean the Provoisional IRA) detained atm, they got released in the GFA. The detainees will be from various other armed groups.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

maybe a mod or admin can split the OT comments.

Done.

The new thread is here: http://www.revleft.com/vb/struggle-ireland-t95042/index.html

[Dóchas]

I doubt there's any members of the IRA (I assume you mean the Provoisional IRA) detained atm, they got released in the GFA. The detainees will be from various other armed groups.

oh ye...shit sorry about that i wasnt thinking :blushing:

[reddevil]

given that my mother narrowly missed being killed by an IRA bomb herself i am quite disgusted by the support many on here have for these gangsters. whatever the historic injustices perpetrated against ireland, there is no justification for directing murder against a civilian population.
i also think you'll find it interesting that sinn fein gave open support to the nazis during world war 2. they are nationalists first and foremost, not socialists.

[skki]

Yesterday someone tried to justify Stalin, today the IRA. I can really see why the administration hates the userbase so....

This forum reeks of the ignorance and stupidity of Stormfront.

[Wanted Man]

Why exactly, am I supposed to give a fuck about this scum?
No idea, but I'm sure they won't grieve for a second that "anarcho-communist" "skki" doesn't "give a fuck". Regardless of the IRA's politics, these people are political prisoners of British imperialism, you mouth-breathing cretin. Anyone who has any idea of progressive causes would support the struggle to free such prisoners. What kind of shitty anarchist supports Republicans being held by the state, anyway?


Try blaming the people of Northern Ireland. They were the ones who kept voting to stay in the UK.
Pure gerrymandering, as someone said before. In any country, you can find a particular region where the majority wants something different. So hey, let's just split it off, or annex it into another country, it's "what the people want", right? Maybe if some shitty village demands the right to be independent so they can hold a regular "running of the Jew", it's all fine too.

[skki]

I think its so adorable that everyone in this discussion has been ignoring the elephant in the room and debating the trivialities. The IRA KILLED INNOCENT CIVILIANS. THIS WAS IRA POLICY. Stick to the subject eh?

[skki]

No idea, but I'm sure they won't grieve for a second that "anarcho-communist" "skki" doesn't "give a fuck". Regardless of the IRA's politics, these people are political prisoners of British imperialism, you mouth-breathing cretin. Anyone who has any idea of progressive causes would support the struggle to free such prisoners. What kind of shitty anarchist supports Republicans being held by the state, anyway?

Pure gerrymandering, as someone said before. In any country, you can find a particular region where the majority wants something different. So hey, let's just split it off, or annex it into another country, it's "what the people want", right? Maybe if some shitty village demands the right to be independent so they can hold a regular "running of the Jew", it's all fine too.

So because I couldnt give two shits about a bunch of delusional murderers being held in some prison, I automatically support the states decision? I just don't care. Take them outside and shoot them, I really couldn't care less.

lol @ nerd rage

[Connolly]

I think its so adorable that everyone in this discussion has been ignoring the elephant in the room and debating the trivialities. The IRA KILLED INNOCENT CIVILIANS. THIS WAS IRA POLICY. Stick to the subject eh?

And who started the murdering?

Also, who created the conditions for which the modern IRA'(s) emerged?

Your anger is directed at the symptom, not the cause.


So because I couldnt give two shits about a bunch of delusional murderers being held in some prison, I automatically support the states decision? I just don't care. Take them outside and shoot them, I really couldn't care less.

Delusional, how so?

[Seven Stars]

Why exactly, am I supposed to give a fuck about this scum?

It was never IRA policy to harm civilians, it happend, but that is the ugly side of war. I find it funny when ever trendy middle class lefties come on here and bad mouth Irish Republicans, those who are actually fighting against imperialism instead of just typing about it. You should turn off your computer and go read a few books or even better go out and do something productive for your community instead of making an ass of yourself on here.

[skki]

For the record; I hate imperialism and the IRA equally. And Connolly, did the random people hanging around at clubs start the conflict? You people are talking like fucking nationalists. The British government started the conflict hundreds of years ago, so British people deserve to die for it today? And Irish_republican: when the IRA detonated bombs in the middle of Manchester and London, they werent trying to harm civilians? Call it the ugly side of war, tell me I'm ignorant, whatever. This is mass murder and I do not approve.

[Seven Stars]

Stupid ****, they gave warnings. And didn't I tell you to fuck off and go read a book? You should take my advice. Oh and maybe getting off the computer and actually doing something revolutionary instead of complaining like a little ***** would help too.

[Connolly]

For the record; I hate imperialism and the IRA equally. And Connolly, did the random people hanging around at clubs start the conflict? You people are talking like fucking nationalists. The British government started the conflict hundreds of years ago, so British people deserve to die for it today?


Your 'argument' sounds totally emotive. Those people "hanging around the clubs" were victims of the troubles. The IRA did not start the conflict, they emerged from the conditions present at the time, with most of its members being victims also. They are a symptom, infact the IRA were almost a spent force before the troubles errupted (with something like 3 guns in the entire city of Belfast).

Its not about killing civilians, or whether the IRA were right or wrong - its about recognising and understanding that they emerged from the oppression and near apartheid type system which was in place.

As I say, your anger is misplaced. You are attacking the symptom as opposed to that which causes sectarianism, division and the problems, which is partition and the British occupation. - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibhnhqB02A8

Also, I dont consider myself a nationalist (infact I hate that term). But Irish republican socialism is not necessarilly nationalist, rather, it seeks to create the conditions for working class unity and the creation of socialism on the island. What you are saying is like calling anti-racist campaigners racist by virtue of trying to eliminate it, or work for unity.

Not that 'nationalism' is necessarilly bad either. Nations exist, cultures, languages, music and traditions are real. Not just are they real, but I would hope that any communist world would be full of diversity, full of nations, and atempts to promote it.

After all, we dont want one big grey slab of Britney Spears and 50cent now do we.

[ComradeOm]

The majority of republican prisoners in Maghaberry are affiliated with Continuity IRA, with a handful of Real IRA prisoners also held on the wingWhat exactly is the problem with this? These organisations did not sign up to the GFA and therefore have no reason to be released under its terms. Highlighting their continued imprisonment is one thing but suggesting that they have any legal grounds for release under the GFA is pure hypocrisy

[Jorge Miguel]

THIS WAS IRA POLICY. Stick to the subject eh?Source? Evidence?

Infact, the only organisation who had a deliberate policy of murdering civilians was the Loyalist murder gangs who are part of the state apparatus and defended, funded, directed and trained by both your army and government.

[Madvillainy]

Source? Evidence?

Infact, the only organisation who had a deliberate policy of murdering civilians was the Loyalist murder gangs who are part of the state apparatus and defended, funded, directed and trained by both your army and government.

What about Kingsmill? Did they shoot those 10 protestant workers dead by accident?

[Dóchas]

For the record; I hate imperialism and the IRA equally. And Connolly, did the random people hanging around at clubs start the conflict? You people are talking like fucking nationalists.

why do you hate the IRA so much they were really just a bunch of farmers that had the balls to stand up to the british as they took away their rights and land before their eyes?

oh and how are we nationalists we are relly just a bunch of angry farmers that want our land back

[S.O.I]

fuck the british! free scotland and ireland.

there are three kinds of people: bullies, the one that complain and cry about bullies bullying them, only to be laughed at by the bully, and the people who punch the bullies three times is the face for beeing a stupid mean bully. and if he tries to fight back because of that, punches him another three times, until the bully becomes nice to people and stops beeing a bully. and then they can become friends!:)

[Dóchas]

fuck the british! free scotland and ireland.

there are three kinds of people: bullies, the one that complain and cry about bullies bullying them, only to be laughed at by the bully, and the people who punch the bullies three times is the face for beeing a stupid mean bully. and if he tries to fight back because of that, punches him another three times, until the bully becomes nice to people and stops beeing a bully. and then they can become friends!:)

i like you, amen to that!! :D

[PRC-UTE]

I think its so adorable that everyone in this discussion has been ignoring the elephant in the room and debating the trivialities. The IRA KILLED INNOCENT CIVILIANS. THIS WAS IRA POLICY. Stick to the subject eh?

the vast majority of attacks carried out by the republican armies were directed at the security forces. no, it wasn't regular IRA policy to target kill innocent civilians. the fact that warnings were so often issued is evidence of that.

if the republicans had wanted to murder lots of civilians, they could've easily done a whole lot more, as gruesome as that sounds. even Tony Blair said the same thing, that the IRA wasn't out to massacre civilians. same holds true for the INLA who carried out some sophisticated attacks.

events like Kingsmill, while completely inexcusable and sickening (and counter productive to the republican cause) were aberrations.

see the book Bandit Country, it even has quotes from British Army personnel and Protestant clergy backing this up. And the author was not a republican sympathiser, not at all.

I'm not an IRA supporter btw, I'm in the IRSP, and I have many criticisms of the republican movement.

[skki]

(not a response to PRC_UTE)
You people make me sick. You are using nationalism to justify murder. I suppose you approve of the 9/11 attacks too? I mean the US army was in foreign lands; overturning governments and installing dictatorships. Surely this means that the US citizens deserved to die, right? They were just defending themselves from the imperialistic Americans by killing those people.

There are plenty of living relatives of the victims of the IRA. How about you go explain to them why their loved ones deserved to die.

I hate British imperialism. I hate the British government. I hate everything the British Army has ever done, and I especially hate what they did in Ireland. But picture this scenario: Suppose you mug me. Suppose you come into my house, beat me half to death, kill my family, take all of my possessions and money, then leave. And then, I go over to your house and murder your sister in the name of self defense. Is this justifiable behavior?

Also, lol @ that dipshit telling me to "read something" :laugh:. Simple people entertain me to no end.

[PRC-UTE]

What exactly is the problem with this? These organisations did not sign up to the GFA and therefore have no reason to be released under its terms. Highlighting their continued imprisonment is one thing but suggesting that they have any legal grounds for release under the GFA is pure hypocrisy

I didn't get that argument from a reading of it.

[Connolly]

(not a response to PRC_UTE)
You people make me sick. You are using nationalism to justify murder.

Wrong


I suppose you approve of the 9/11 attacks too?

Irrelevent


I mean the US army was in foreign lands; overturning governments and installing dictatorships. Surely this means that the US citizens deserved to die, right?

Stupid comparison



They were just defending themselves from the imperialistic Americans by killing those people.


Stupid comment


There are plenty of living relatives of the victims of the IRA. How about you go explain to them why their loved ones deserved to die.

Getting all emotional.


I hate British imperialism. I hate the British government. I hate everything the British Army has ever done, and I especially hate what they did in Ireland.

Who'd believe it.


But picture this scenario: Suppose you mug me. Suppose you come into my house, beat me half to death, kill my family, take all of my possessions and money, then leave. And then, I go over to your house and murder your sister in the name of self defense. Is this justifiable behavior?

Who says what is and what is not justifiable? - are you God?

-------------

Wow your entire post was just, well, a waste of time.

[Pogue]

What about Kingsmill? Did they shoot those 10 protestant workers dead by accident?

Someone respond to this please, because i have read upon on this incident and I don't see how it was any different from fascist death squads excecuting someone based on their colour or ethnicity. It was cold hearted murder of innocents based upon their background.

[BobKKKindle$]

I don't see how it was any different from fascist death squads excecuting someone based on their colour or ethnicity

You don't recognize the difference because you don't understand what fascism is, and you refuse to acknowledge the conditions in which IRA militants were forced to operate by the actions of the British state. Fascism is what emerges when the bourgeoisie is faced with the threat of social revolution, and involves the use of violence (which can be exercised by the state, or independent bodies such as the Blackshirts in Italy) to destroy workers organizations and break up the institutions of bourgeois democracy as a means to restore profitability and prevent capitalism from being overthrown - nothing of the sort existed in Northern Ireland during "The Troubles" and so it makes absolutely no sense to characterize the IRA as being some kind of fascist movement, unless you insist on completely distorting the meaning of fascism and rejecting the Marxist analysis. As for the actual massacre itself, we can assume that all communists regret the deaths of innocent civilians, but at the same time we should acknowledge that the massacre occurred in response to sectarian murders committed by the UVF the previous day, and unlike the violence of the UVF, all actions conducted by the IRA and other organizations which shared the same political viewpoint were designed to remove an oppressive occupation which denied and continues to deny the Irish people their basic rights.

[Dóchas]

(not a response to PRC_UTE)
You people make me sick. You are using nationalism to justify murder. I suppose you approve of the 9/11 attacks too? I mean the US army was in foreign lands; overturning governments and installing dictatorships. Surely this means that the US citizens deserved to die, right? They were just defending themselves from the imperialistic Americans by killing those people.

There are plenty of living relatives of the victims of the IRA. How about you go explain to them why their loved ones deserved to die.

I hate British imperialism. I hate the British government. I hate everything the British Army has ever done, and I especially hate what they did in Ireland. But picture this scenario: Suppose you mug me. Suppose you come into my house, beat me half to death, kill my family, take all of my possessions and money, then leave. And then, I go over to your house and murder your sister in the name of self defense. Is this justifiable behavior?

Also, lol @ that dipshit telling me to "read something" :laugh:. Simple people entertain me to no end.

to the firat part wtf i dont giv a shit about america they were the ones that screwed over the other countries, i know it sounds harsh but they had it coming they could hardley expect to invade another country and get away scot free especially against a group like al queda. (i apologise if this sounds harsh and i share the pain that america felt when the towers came down but its the truth)

to the second part i cant really say because im not in the IRA but i admit that they didnt deserve to die they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

to the third part thats just a really bad example and you made it way to personal, country is one thing but family is completely different

to the fourth part why are you laughing at him why dont you read a book form the irish perspective instead of the shit they spoonfeed you at school

would you mind replying to my previous post so i can actually understand why you hate the IRA so much?

[Pogue]

No, lets get it right. I'm a communist, and communists oppose the murder of innocent civilians just because they happen to be protestant.

There is absoultely no defence for excecuting innocent people based on their background, so don't justify it with all that "The conditions were this...the conditions were that...imperialism...." bollocks, because at the end of the day they chose to execute innocent workers just because they were protestant, just like how racists have attacked and killed black workers for being black, etc etc. It is murder of workers based on their background.

Being of Irish descent and well read, I don't need your condescending remarks about not understanding this or that. I didn't say the IRA or other militant Republicans were fascist, I just compared the murder of innocents base don the background as similar to the innocent murdering of anyone based on their background, ethnicity etc.

If the UVF, with its link to neo-nazi groups and its awful atrocities, is killing Irish Catholic workers for no reason, killing innocents, why would the Republicans and its 'left' respond in the same way by killing innocent Protestant workers? Because killing people for being Protestants is just as bad.

And before I get more of the bullshit about not understanding the situation, I'm a republican, I just don't fetishise criminal murdeorus gangs in the name of "fighting Imperialism". This was a dirty war and both sides did fucked up things. Based on ideology and goals, the Republicans are in the right, but they commited atrocities, just as the UVF did, and these are inexcusable and as a communist I will never support the barbaric murder of workers who were killed for being Protestant. Never.

Because as an Anarchist I will always side with the innocent people, innocent workers, against any threats or intimidation regardless of who it comes from. Fuck sectarianism and arogant and blind unrealistic arugments against imperialism which support the innocent murder of workers.

[Random Precision]

"Skki", you can consider yourself verbally warned for flaming. Thanks and I look forward to serving you again.

[BobKKKindle$]

Because killing people for being Protestants is just as badIt has never been suggested by me or anyone else who has posted in this thread that the killing of Protestants was a "good thing" or that it was a necessary part of the liberation struggle, but your error lies in the fact that you see the violent actions of the IRA and the actions of the UVF (or any other fascist gang) as morally equivalent, and so you have adopted an abstract system of morality which judges actions solely on the basis of the immediate outcome without considering the political position of the actors involved. In reality, both sides were guilty of killing civilians, but the actions of the IRA were intended to strike a blow against the oppression of the British state to protect the rights of the Irish people, whereas the UVF aimed to maintain a system of oppression, and so communists should have given their support to the IRA, as fighters for the rights of the oppressed and exploited majority. A parallel can be drawn with the Israel-Palestinian conflict, as although the violent sections of the Palestinian movement have committed acts of barbarity such as attacking buses full of civilians, the Palestinians occupy the position of the oppressed, and that is what makes their struggle legitimate, regardless of which tactics they use.

[PRC-UTE]

Someone respond to this please, because i have read upon on this incident and I don't see how it was any different from fascist death squads excecuting someone based on their colour or ethnicity. It was cold hearted murder of innocents based upon their background.

who tries to justify it? I don't. The IRSM has and had many Protestant members.

we don't try to excuse it or justify it at all. it was flat out wrong, most republicans held their heads in shame over it, found it demoralising. And it did a lot of damage to the republican project.

however the fact remains that Kingsmill was an aberration, which I've already addressed, did you not see this.

[Pogue]

I'd challenge the legitimacy of the national liberation struggle in the end generally, which as most guerilla groups have, seems to have become detached from its goals and the people it supports. And I think the means have a big influence on the ends. You're a hypocrite if you claim to fight for freedom of the Irish people and, as the IRA and the INLA have in their founding delcarations and aims, claim to be working towards socialism via bombing innocent people and shooting Protestant workers.
Both sides went to peace because they realised an isolated violent conflict wouldn't solve anything and was making things worse, because it just gets bitter, back and forth killings.

Of course I'd say the UDA and UVF were worse than the IRA, anyday, but as an Anarchist I'd find it hard to support national liberation movements which terrorise and kill innocent people. Nothing complex in there.

Claiming you're out to free the people from oppresion is not a justification for your acts. Its jsut something to hide behind. I'm an Anarchist, and I'd never set off a bomb on or kill anyone who is innocent, because it goes against what I am fighting for, which is freedom, peace and equality for everyone. If you're executing Protestant workers, thats not freedom for them, its not peace for them, and although in comparison to brutal and cold blooded murder its appears almost a minor point, it's discrimination. It's the same as race killings, in the sense that its killing someone based upon an identity which they have which hurts no one and they dont want to change, or maybe cant. These guys and many others were singled out on both sides based on their backgrounds. Unjustifiable, and barbaric, and a betrayal of any cause of freedom. I think alot of people here need to realise that sectarian murder of workers or anyone innocent is not a vlaid tactic for any communist to support.

I've supported a free and united socialist Ireland all my life, but thats not the same as supporting people who set off bombs against innocent British people and execute my fellow workers.

Oncemore, I don't support the murder of workers based on their backgorund because I'm a communist and I don't appreciate predjudice based on whether someones a protestant, a catholic, black or white, etc. The guys who shot those Kingsmill workers deserve to rot in hell, just like the UVF, the UDA, Paisley and Thatcher do. Fuck everyone who murders and attacks the innocents, fuck anyone who attacks and murders the working class.

[Saorsa]

Do you listen? War is never pretty and it's inevitable that unfortunate incidents like these are going to occur. Both the IRA and the INLA made mistakes and carried out attacks that they never should have, but that in no way invalidates the entire struggle they carried out for national liberation and socialism.

[Comrade_Red]

It was never IRA policy to harm civilians, it happend, but that is the ugly side of war. I find it funny when ever trendy middle class lefties come on here and bad mouth Irish Republicans, those who are actually fighting against imperialism instead of just typing about it. You should turn off your computer and go read a few books or even better go out and do something productive for your community instead of making an ass of yourself on here.


Yeahhhh. Well said, man. :thumbup1:

[Pogue]

Do you listen? War is never pretty and it's inevitable that unfortunate incidents like these are going to occur. Both the IRA and the INLA made mistakes and carried out attacks that they never should have, but that in no way invalidates the entire struggle they carried out for national liberation and socialism.

I'd question the true motives of a group who take it upon themselves to bomb civilians and execute workers for being protestants. Anyway, towards the end of ther struggle they became effectively armed criminal gangs in the end anyway, carrying out drugs deals and robberies to fund themselves when the struggle dried up. Just a fact. They shamed the republican socialist cause, to be honest.

[Pogue]

It was never IRA policy to harm civilians, it happend, but that is the ugly side of war. I find it funny when ever trendy middle class lefties come on here and bad mouth Irish Republicans, those who are actually fighting against imperialism instead of just typing about it. You should turn off your computer and go read a few books or even better go out and do something productive for your community instead of making an ass of yourself on here.

I find it funny when so called communists support organisations who killed innocent workers just because of their background. But hey ho.

I also find it funny how you'd call a self proclaimed Anarcho-Communist of whom you know nothing about in real life middle class, when its pretty safe to assume that being an Anarchist, he's working class.

I find it funny you'd criticise people for typing on a forum rather than doing something productive for their community when you're on a forum debating Irish Republicans too.

I am active in fighting 'Imperialism', in the sense that I'm involved in anti-War campaigns, but I'm critical of the IRA in its most modern forms. Am I middle class and useless? Clearly not, because I sell my labour for just above the minimum wage and I am as active as anyone, in Anarchist groups and the syndicalist movement.

War is ugly, but executing innocent workers when you claim to be fighting for freedom and to some extent, socialism, thats more than an ugly war. Thats a betrayal of your supposed ideology and morals, and any serious socialist would never do it.

[Andropov]

I'd question the true motives of a group who take it upon themselves to bomb civilians and execute workers for being protestants. Anyway, towards the end of ther struggle they became effectively armed criminal gangs in the end anyway, carrying out drugs deals and robberies to fund themselves when the struggle dried up. Just a fact. They shamed the republican socialist cause, to be honest.
Im a Republican Socialist and reading your comments I would agree with the vast amjority of what you say.
There is no excuse for Sectarian killings on either side and any Republican Socialist who does commit such crimes not only spits on the beliefs of Republican Socialists but also becomes part of the state sponsered terrorism.
The only one Sectarianism benefits is British Imperialism.
The likes of those who committed Kings Mill should be treated no different to the murdering Loyalist Death Squads.

But as for your comment which I have quoted. :(
Very poor comrade.
The Republican movement is not involved in drug dealing nor has ever been involved in drug dealing.
It is pure black propaganda.
Ask a working class Nationalist from Belfast, Derry etc and they will all verify this.
In fact alot of Republicans take a very reactionary stance with regards drug delaing, knee capping dealers and the like.
So please dont buy into the black propaganda of drug dealing.
As for bank robberies, I see no problem with that.
An army needs to buy guns ya know?

[Pogue]

Who does 'black' refer to in black propoganda? The Brits or the Unionists or both?

I thought it was a widespread fact that some of the IRA groups, especially the smaller splinter ones later to disarm, had carried out drug dealing, kidnappings etc after the peace process was agreed upon to fund themselves. Just like how the FARC leadership has become focused on making moeny from drugs and kidnappings, its what often happens with armed groups in long and uniwinnable struggles.

[Andropov]

Who does 'black' refer to in black propoganda? The Brits or the Unionists or both?

I thought it was a widespread fact that some of the IRA groups, especially the smaller splinter ones later to disarm, had carried out drug dealing, kidnappings etc after the peace process was agreed upon to fund themselves. Just like how the FARC leadership has become focused on making moeny from drugs and kidnappings, its what often happens with armed groups in long and uniwinnable struggles.
Black propaganda refers to both the British Imperialists and their colonial mouth pieces in the North, eg the Unionists.
Even in the Free State there is widespread black propaganda about Drug Dealing and Republicanism, especially from the Sunday World tabloid.
Not only is their a sinister propaganda element but it also makes for sensationalist articles which unfortunately sells papers.
The INLA gets a particularly bad rep from the rags, its all to discredit the movement.
When all one has to do is research the topic and see that not on INLA man in its history was ever convicted of dealing.
Sure even the likes of Patsy O'Hara (died on hunger strike) was called a hood and a dealer.
These allegations have been floating about for decades but yet no evidence has ever been produced.
The sad fact is that now PSF partake in spewing out such lies as they are now firmly part of the establishment.
Dont believe what you read, the papers and their sources all have agendas.

[Comrade_Red]

For the person who said the IRA killed workers, who the heck is to say they're workers?

Whatever your say, Ian Stuart.:P

[Pogue]

So theres no proof of the criminal activities?

[Pogue]

For the person who said the IRA killed workers, who the heck is to say they're workers?

Whatever your say, Ian Stuart.:P

Because they were killed in a bus which was transporting them for their workplace towards home.

[Pogue]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingsmill_massacre

[Pogue]

For the person who said the IRA killed workers, who the heck is to say they're workers?

Whatever your say, Ian Stuart.:P

What the fuck is with the Ian Stuart reference? Who was that directed at and why?

[Andropov]

So theres no proof of the criminal activities?

Define criminal activities?
There are certainly bank robberies and the like.
But certainly not drug dealing.
I actually read there recently a new article alleging the Contos run brothels.
Its absolutely absurd.
If the Republican struggle was just a front for pimps and pushers I would have no assosciation with it what so ever.

Its ironic though because the Loyalists are self confessed pushers.
The UDA just became a drug gang.

[Devrim]

events like Kingsmill, while completely inexcusable and sickening (and counter productive to the republican cause) were aberrations.


however the fact remains that Kingsmill was an aberration, which I've already addressed, did you not see this.


Do you listen? War is never pretty and it's inevitable that unfortunate incidents like these are going to occur.

These people talk like those do who are justifying murders by the imperialists in the Middle East. "It was an aberration". I have heard that before when civilians have been massacred. The same as "unfortunate incidents like these are going to occur".

Of course it is a well known fact that the Provisional IRA killed more civilains in its war that it did British soldiers.

In fact, in the worst years of the war (1974-76), the IRA killed 91 protestant civilians. Were they all aberrations, or was a definite policy of sectarian murders being implemented.

A good example of this type of murders would be the machine gunning of five people in Newtonhamilton in 1975.

No I know very well that Protestant paramilitaries killed more Catholics than this over the same period, and expect those who would support sectarian murders to use this as a justification.

It is only a useful justification though for those who would argue for national, or ethnic politics, not to socialists who would argue for class unity.


In reality, both sides were guilty of killing civilians, but the actions of the IRA were intended to strike a blow against the oppression of the British state to protect the rights of the Irish people, whereas the UVF aimed to maintain a system of oppression, and so communists should have given their support to the IRA, as fighters for the rights of the oppressed and exploited majority.

What is intended isn't really the point. The point is that the sectarian murders committed by both sides objectively acted to destroy any prospect of class unity. It is hard to argue for class unity across sectarian divides, even harder when people are murdering each other, and in no way helped by one of those sides doing it in the name of socialism.


we can assume that all communists regret the deaths of innocent civilians, but at the same time we should acknowledge that the massacre occurred in response to sectarian murders committed by the UVF the previous day,

This is the argument of those who would always stoke the fair of ethnic conflict; "they started it".


There is no excuse for Sectarian killings on either side and any Republican Socialist who does commit such crimes not only spits on the beliefs of Republican Socialists but also becomes part of the state sponsered terrorism.
The only one Sectarianism benefits is British Imperialism.
The likes of those who committed Kings Mill should be treated no different to the murdering Loyalist Death Squads.

This poster at least has some class feeling. One would have to ask why he is a supporter of an organisation that perpetuates these type of actions.

Devrim

[Andropov]

This poster at least has some class feeling. One would have to ask why he is a supporter of an organisation that perpetuates these type of actions.


Firstly let me just state that I am no fan of the provos but they did not have a policy of sectarian killing.
There were sectarian elements within their ranks but it was not their policy.
I am not excusing the disgusting actions of their minority just I do realise that the policy was not inherently sectarian.

The RSM does not perpetuate sectarian killings.
If they did I would not be part of this movement.

[Devrim]

True the INLA had less time for sectarian killings as it was too busy with its gangsterism, and murderous internal fueds. I don't see what kidnapping a dentist and sending his wife bits of his body in the post, or murdering the nine year old sisters of the people you have internal political disagrements with has to do with socialism. It is more like something out of the Godfarther.

However, the INLA was involved in the Mountain Lodge Pentecostal Church murders, even though theywere later condemed, and the Balleykelly disco bombing was deemed possible as "there were enough soldiers to justify the possibility of civilian killings".

Devrim

[Andropov]

True the INLA had less time for sectarian killings as it was too busy with its gangsterism, and murderous internal fueds. I don't see what kidnapping a dentist and sending his wife bits of his body in the post, or murdering the nine year old sisters of the people you have internal political disagrements with has to do with socialism. It is more like something out of the Godfarther.

However, the INLA was involved in the Mountain Lodge Pentecostal Church murders, even though theywere later condemed, and the Balleykelly disco bombing was deemed possible as "there were enough soldiers to justify the possibility of civilian killings".

Devrim

Spoken like a true Imperial mouthpiece.
Im glad you posted this because now people can actually see your lies.

Firstly the poor girl you mentioned was a horrific accident.
The shot fired through the window of her house was ment to be a warning shot.
It was a terrible terrible accident but it was not intentional.
It is a lie that she was murdered for being the sister of a scumbag, it was just a something that went very very wrong.
So get your facts straight.

The INLA were not involved in the Pentecostal massacre.
Thats a lie and one that is well known.
I am beginning to see a pattern emerging.

As for the kidnappings.
A necessity for raising money.
An army needs money to buy guns.
So kidnapping and robberies are a necessity.
He lost a finger, boo fukcing hoo, it was a war.
Some things are done out of necessity, not desirable, but a necessity.

You mention the feuds?
You are clueless.
If you actually knew your information you would know it was a feud instigated by the provos.
But then your not interested in the truth, are you?

As for the gangsterism remark?
Ive heard it all before and really, some evidence would be nice?
Or even some honesty in your reply and not some second rate lies.

[Madvillainy]

It doesn't really matter if these allegations are true 'RedRevolutionary'.

The fact is Republicans lack any strategy for winning over protestant workers beyond hoping they will see beyond their so called 'false consiousness'.

This would be a weak strategy in any case but coming from organisations such as yours (Irsm) which promote authoritarian socialist politics and are seen by most working class people as deeply infested with sectarian, criminal and thuggish behaviour it is no strategy at all.

[Pogue]

Once more, you can't fall back on accusing people of supporting Imperialism because they oppose the thuggish behaviour of your armed murderers. Face the music, you're lot sold out and messed up.

Imperialism seems to be the word people on this forum use to justify support for all manner of right wing authoritarian dictatorship or armed thug group.

[PRC-UTE]

True the INLA had less time for sectarian killings as it was too busy with its gangsterism, and murderous internal fueds.

Interestingly enough, although this is the usual line taken that the INLA were all about feuds there were less people killed in INLA 'feuds' then in the PIRA's feuds (which were sometimes completely one sided, such as unarmed IRSP members gunned down by the provos, sticks and IPLO)



I don't see what kidnapping a dentist and sending his wife bits of his body in the post, or murdering the nine year old sisters of the people you have internal political disagrements with has to do with socialism. It is more like something out of the Godfarther.

the man was the second richest in Ireland. basically it's okay when working class people get killed in war, but not when we take the war to the bourgeoisie?
I know the men who did this and they didn't do any of it out of a motivation to enrich themselves, or anything like the Godfather.
anyway, this was the INLA departing from traditionalist republican practice and adopting the methods of leftist and communist insurgents



However, the INLA was involved in the Mountain Lodge Pentecostal Church murders, even though theywere later condemed, and the Balleykelly disco bombing was deemed possible as "there were enough soldiers to justify the possibility of civilian killings".

It was carried out by two men who requested the arms to defend themselves from loyalists (one man's brother had just been murdered). There was also an INLA member along, but he was later dealt with by the leadership. Obviously the man was deranged and should not have been given the weapon.
but this is completely different from the INLA having an intentional policy of slaughtering Protestants- and your argument that this resulted from being too busy with gangsterism is undermined by your own example of Ballykelly, since the INLA obviously had enough time to take the war to the Brits (but not Protestants?).

[PRC-UTE]

These people talk like those do who are justifying murders by the imperialists in the Middle East. "It was an aberration". I have heard that before when civilians have been massacred. The same as "unfortunate incidents like these are going to occur".

Except of course the context and number of civilians involved are radically different.
You can't show me a liberation force of any kind which didn't make mistakes in a protracted conflict. they only exist in the imaginations of people never involved in revolutionary struggle.



Of course it is a well known fact that the Provisional IRA killed more civilains in its war that it did British soldiers.

they count part time constables, reservists as civilians, too.
it was also inevitable that there would be a lower ratio of soldiers to 'civilians' killed because of the ulsterisation of the war, shifting the burden to local forces.



What is intended isn't really the point. The point is that the sectarian murders committed by both sides objectively acted to destroy any prospect of class unity. It is hard to argue for class unity across sectarian divides, even harder when people are murdering each other, and in no way helped by one of those sides doing it in the name of socialism.

This is just rewriting history. There wasn't much chance of class unity happening when catholics are driven from their work because they ask for equal rights. asking for the smallest reforms in the six county state led to violence, because to loyalist minds its the same thing as destroying their state- something no critic of republican socialism has come up with a convincing answer to.
ending the six county state's sectarian makeup woudl therefore be a huge step forward for workers unity.



This is the argument of those who would always stoke the fair of ethnic conflict; "they started it".

the brits and loyalists tried to make it an ethnic conflict, it never was one for the IRSM.



This poster at least has some class feeling. One would have to ask why he is a supporter of an organisation that perpetuates these type of actions.


Perpetuates? Em, what we're discussing took place decades ago, mate.

[Pogue]

Not realy decades ago. The groups still exist and allegedly are still involved in crimes.

[Seven Stars]

I find it funny when so called communists support organisations who killed innocent workers just because of their background. But hey ho.

I also find it funny how you'd call a self proclaimed Anarcho-Communist of whom you know nothing about in real life middle class, when its pretty safe to assume that being an Anarchist, he's working class.

I find it funny you'd criticise people for typing on a forum rather than doing something productive for their community when you're on a forum debating Irish Republicans too.

I am active in fighting 'Imperialism', in the sense that I'm involved in anti-War campaigns, but I'm critical of the IRA in its most modern forms. Am I middle class and useless? Clearly not, because I sell my labour for just above the minimum wage and I am as active as anyone, in Anarchist groups and the syndicalist movement.

War is ugly, but executing innocent workers when you claim to be fighting for freedom and to some extent, socialism, thats more than an ugly war. Thats a betrayal of your supposed ideology and morals, and any serious socialist would never do it.

He is spouting the same trendy lefty shit and had has yet to say anything to prove that he is anything but some middle class wanker on his laptop.

The Anti-War Movement, please? That's nothing but a bunch of reformist liberals.

[PRC-UTE]

Not realy decades ago. The groups still exist and allegedly are still involved in crimes.

Only if you agree with the bosses that armed working class men and women defending their community from attack constitutes a crime.

[Andropov]

It doesn't really matter if these allegations are true 'RedRevolutionary'.

The fact is Republicans lack any strategy for winning over protestant workers beyond hoping they will see beyond their so called 'false consiousness'.

This would be a weak strategy in any case but coming from organisations such as yours (Irsm) which promote authoritarian socialist politics and are seen by most working class people as deeply infested with sectarian, criminal and thuggish behaviour it is no strategy at all.

Yes it does matter if these allegations are true, it matters alot.
Such allegations are a slur which are utilised for black propaganda purposes.

If you expect the RSM to change principles for some sort of appeasment of a reactionary minority in ireland your wrong. We will not become as Connolly put it "gas and water socialists". We are not sectarian, are open to all but that does not mean we will accomodate Reactionary opinions within the party.

Yes, nice stereotype for the RSM. Well we can all resort to stereotypes in a debate, sure what do you think the majority of the Irsh working class think of the WSM? New age hippys who are more concerned with "bringing down the man" and lighting up a spliff. But then thats a stereotype, I would hope that posters wouldnt resort to such stereotypes.

[Andropov]

Once more, you can't fall back on accusing people of supporting Imperialism because they oppose the thuggish behaviour of your armed murderers. Face the music, you're lot sold out and messed up.

Imperialism seems to be the word people on this forum use to justify support for all manner of right wing authoritarian dictatorship or armed thug group.

Thuggish behaviour?
A war was being fought, do you expect them to maintain gentlemans rules?
Face the music?
What an idiotic comment, sold out!
Spoken like someone who truley has only read a book about the RSM.
If you have an issue with anything I wrote, address it, instead of just throwing out all encompassing generalisations.
Its just common courtesy.

[Devrim]

the man was the second richest in Ireland. basically it's okay when working class people get killed in war, but not when we take the war to the bourgeoisie?

Untrue, he was a dentist. His father-in-law, Austin Darragh, was a rich business man. I don't think that you seriously expect people to believe that a dentist was the second richest man in Ireland.

Just let's remind people of what O'Hare said about this:


[The delay]just cost John his two fingers. Now I'm going to chop him into bits and pieces and send fresh lumps of him every fucking day if I don't get my money fast


Firstly the poor girl you mentioned was a horrific accident.
The shot fired through the window of her house was ment to be a warning shot.
It was a terrible terrible accident but it was not intentional.

OK, it just happened to be reported a little differently. Obviously the bourgeois press were lying again:


Barbara McAlorum was watching television in the front living room of her family home in north Belfast when an INLA man, standing in full view of the child feet away in the front garden, shot her with a pump-action shotgun. The murderers' faction later taunted the family that it was their fault the child had been killed.


The INLA were not involved in the Pentecostal massacre.
Thats a lie and one that is well known.

Your comrade thinks differently:


It was carried out by two men who requested the arms to defend themselves from loyalists (one man's brother had just been murdered). There was also an INLA member along, but he was later dealt with by the leadership. Obviously the man was deranged and should not have been given the weapon.

It sounds like a classic sectarian attack to me.


Interestingly enough, although this is the usual line taken that the INLA were all about feuds there were less people killed in INLA 'feuds' then in the PIRA's feuds (which were sometimes completely one sided, such as unarmed IRSP members gunned down by the provos, sticks and IPLO)

So what you are saying here is that you weren't the most gangster like faction of the republic movement. I never claimed that though.


You can't show me a liberation force of any kind which didn't make mistakes in a protracted conflict.

Yes, I don't claim that this is something that is endemic to Ireland. It is something that is endemic to national liberation movements. The PKK in this country for example had a policy of shooting school teachers for example.


]
Of course it is a well known fact that the Provisional IRA killed more civilains in its war that it did British soldiers. they count part time constables, reservists as civilians, too.

No, they don't. If you look at the figures from the two studies mentioned below you can see that reservists and Police officers are counted separately. The total of British soldiers, reservists and policemen does exceed the civilian deaths (not by much though). However, the fact remains that the IRA killed more civilians than British soldiers.

According to the CAIN research project at the University of Ulster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Ulster), [90] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_IRA_campaign_1969-1997#cite_note-89) the Provisional IRA was responsible for the deaths of 1,821 people during the Troubles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles) up to 2001. This figure represents 48.4 percent of the total fatalities in the conflict.


621 of these casualties were civilians.
A total of 655 were British armed forces; 465 from the British Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Army), 190 were from the Ulster Defence Regiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Defence_Regiment) (a part time local British Army reserve unit).
272 were members of the Royal Ulster Constabulary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Ulster_Constabulary), 14 were former Royal Ulster Constabulary members, six were British Police (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Police), 20 were Northern Ireland Prison Service (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_Prison_Service) officers, two were former prison officers.
A further 35 were loyalist paramilitaries (21 Ulster Defence Association (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Defence_Association) (UDA), three former UDA, 11 Ulster Volunteer Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Volunteer_Force)).
Six were Gardaí and one was Irish Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Army).
About 180 were republican paramilitaries, including 12 Official IRA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_IRA) members, one Irish People's Liberation Organisation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_People%27s_Liberation_Organisation) member, 63 alleged informers and 103 accidental deaths of Provisional IRA members due to premature explosions.

Another detailed study,[91] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_IRA_campaign_1969-1997#cite_note-90) gives the following figures for people killed by the Provisional IRA up to 2004:


644 civilians,
456 British military (including British Army, RAF, Royal Navy, and Territorial Army), 273 Royal Ulster Constabulary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Ulster_Constabulary) (including RUC reserve), 182 Ulster Defence Regiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Defence_Regiment),
163 Republican paramilitary members (including from the IRA),
28 loyalist paramilitary members, 23 Northern Ireland Prison Service officers, 7 Gardaí or Irish Army, and five British police officers (Lost Lives, page 1536).



The INLA can also boast of the same 'proud' statistic:


According to the Sutton database of deaths at the University of Ulster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Ulster)'s CAIN project,[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INLA#cite_note-15) the INLA was responsible for 113 deaths during the Troubles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles). Among its victims were 46* members of the British security forces, 42 civilians, 2 members of the Garda Síochána (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garda_S%C3%ADoch%C3%A1na), 7 loyalist paramilitaries and 16 republican paramilitaries (including 10 of its own members).

*18 of which were British soldiers.


This is just rewriting history. There wasn't much chance of class unity happening when catholics are driven from their work because they ask for equal rights. asking for the smallest reforms in the six county state led to violence, because to loyalist minds its the same thing as destroying their state- something no critic of republican socialism has come up with a convincing answer to.

I think that it is quite clear here that you see class unity as an impossibility, and the protestant working class as part of the enemy.


and your argument that this resulted from being too busy with gangsterism is undermined by your own example of Ballykelly, since the INLA obviously had enough time to take the war to the Brits (but not Protestants?).

And this is the stuff they are proud of:


The disco was targeted because it was a routine location for British Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Army) soldiers from the nearby Shackleton Barracks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shackleton_Barracks) to unwind at a weekend and meet some local girls, who were predominantly Protestant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism) (although at least one Roman Catholic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic) was killed in the explosion). Following the blast, it took many hours to pull survivors from the rubble, as the club had been overfull with an estimated 150 patrons at the time of the blast. Ultimately, 17 people were found to have died, or died in hospital from their injuries, and over thirty seriously injured, some permanently.

Of the seventeen dead, 11 were soldiers, and six were civilians. Is that an acceptable ratio? Were there "enough soldiers to justify the possibility of civilian killings"?

Devrim

[black magick hustla]

I just want to say that generally this type of substitutionalist armed bands foster a kind of hardened warrior internal culture. They start thinking in terms of gangs rather than any sort of communist. This phenomena happened with latin american guerrillas, and I am sure it prolly happened in the middle east and ireland too.

[Pogue]

He is spouting the same trendy lefty shit and had has yet to say anything to prove that he is anything but some middle class wanker on his laptop.

The Anti-War Movement, please? That's nothing but a bunch of reformist liberals.

What makes you any different from me? Trendy lefty shit? Yeh mate, its called libertarian communism, its where we don't like people murdering innocent people in the name of anti-imperialism or socialism.

Nice one at a useless post. What is the middle class anyway? As I mentioned earlier, I'm Anglo-Irish and I sell my labour over here for just above the minimum wage. I earn less than £5 an hour. I'm as working class as you can get, and I know a thing or two about the IRA and The Troubles. As a genuine socialist, that is to say, an Anarchist, I'm opposed to bullshit like armed groups killing civilians and sectarianism. Sorry if that offends you.

Learn you're facts, stop hurling abuse around instead of arguments and wake up. I'm active in Stop The War because I, erm, oppose the British and Americans invading another coutnry for oil, screwing it up and murdering innocent civilians. Isn't that the sort of thing you're opposed to?

Its not unlikely I'm more active than you, actualy, so okease, don't be so stupid!

[Saorsa]

I'd question the true motives of a group who take it upon themselves to bomb civilians and execute workers for being protestants. Anyway, towards the end of ther struggle they became effectively armed criminal gangs in the end anyway, carrying out drugs deals and robberies to fund themselves when the struggle dried up. Just a fact. They shamed the republican socialist cause, to be honest.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with carrying out bank robberies to fund your struggle, and your moralistic horror at this reflects how liberal your politics still are. And as to the charge that the PRM and the IRSM were pushing drugs to fund their cause... that's complete bullshit, unsubstantiated slanders put out to discredit the movement, and you should be ashamed of yourself repeating them as if they have some validity. The INLA kneecap fucking drug dealers! And good on them for doing it.


So theres no proof of the criminal activities?

Depends on your definition of "criminal activities". The entire armed struggle could be viewed as a "criminal activity"! Why are such a fan of bourgeois legality anyway? The laws of the capitalist class are there to oppress us and allow them to continue exploiting us, we shouldn't give a shit about the law! If we have the strength to break it, we should, and I would have thought this was a pretty elementary revolutionary principle.


These people talk like those do who are justifying murders by the imperialists in the Middle East. "It was an aberration". I have heard that before when civilians have been massacred. The same as "unfortunate incidents like these are going to occur".

Oh come on, that's a pathetically weak argument. There's an ever so slight difference between the imperialist warmongers in the Middle East and the IRA and INLA - they represent a different set of class interests, and they are fighting for different things in a different way. There's no relation between the two so stop dragging things offtopic. Revolutionary struggles never come without a price, and innocent people will get hurt - the end we're struggling towards justifies our means and the unfortunate consequences these means will sometimes have.



Of course it is a well known fact that the Provisional IRA killed more civilains in its war that it did British soldiers.

The majority of those would have been convinced unionists, reactionaries, spies, traitors and so on, and deserved everything they got. And as for the minority that were truly innocent people caught in the crossfire, their deaths are a tragedy that should be deeply regretted, but that happens in every armed struggle.


What is intended isn't really the point. The point is that the sectarian murders committed by both sides objectively acted to destroy any prospect of class unity. It is hard to argue for class unity across sectarian divides, even harder when people are murdering each other, and in no way helped by one of those sides doing it in the name of socialism.

When peaceful protest marchers are shot down like dogs and there is no space to advance your cause legally, the situation demands armed struggle. That's why People's Democracy ended up getting largely sidelined, because they didn't set up an armed wing when the situation demanded it. The IRA were the expression of working-class, nationalist anger in the 6 Counties, and when British imperialism has a military occupation going on and unarmed protesters are being shot it is inexcusable to not begin an armed struggle!


Not realy decades ago. The groups still exist and allegedly are still involved in crimes.



I laughed out loud when I read this. Oh wow, you mean these groups are "allegedly are still involved in crimes"? My god, thats... that's illegal! What a nasty bunch these republicans must be, to "allegedly" still be "involved in crimes", somebody call the constabulary!


OK, it just happened to be reported a little differently. Obviously the bourgeois press were lying again:

Um, would you really be that surprised if they were?



Quote:
Originally Posted by PRC-UTE
It was carried out by two men who requested the arms to defend themselves from loyalists (one man's brother had just been murdered). There was also an INLA member along, but he was later dealt with by the leadership. Obviously the man was deranged and should not have been given the weapon.

It sounds like a classic sectarian attack to me.

Perhaps. To me it sounds more like a badly thought out attack on British troops with a callous disregard for the civilian lives present. But that's not really all that important - PRC-UTE clearly stated that the INLA member present was deal with later. This was not an INLA attack, this was an attack by a couple of loose cannons, one of whom happened to be an INLA member acting without any orders from his leadership. Stop twisting things!

For all his twisting of the facts and his bad position, at least Devrim is coming at this from a consistent political position as a left-communist - he's coming at this on the basis of revolutionary politics. The other people slandering the Republican movement in this thread are just reformist liberals scared of violence and the negative consequences it sometimes has. You'll find it kinda hard to make revolution wherever you live with that attitude.

[PRC-UTE]

It sounds like a classic sectarian attack to me.

Darkley wasn't a representative example of the INLA though. You yourself admitted they didn't fight a sectarian war earlier, you said:



True the INLA had less time for sectarian killings as it was too busy with its gangsterism, and murderous internal fueds.

It would've been pretty odd if the IRSM's Protestant leaders (there were several) were committing sectarian atrocities against other prods.



So what you are saying here is that you weren't the most gangster like faction of the republic movement. I never claimed that though.

:lol:



I think that it is quite clear here that you see class unity as an impossibility, and the protestant working class as part of the enemy.


Yeah, I see members of my own Party who happen to be Protestants as 'the enemy'.

I didn't say any such thing. I said partition divides the working class and the removal of the six county state would be helpful. I actually have Protestant comrades and Protestant relatives, and your cheap attacks are just sad.

[PRC-UTE]

I just want to say that generally this type of substitutionalist armed bands foster a kind of hardened warrior internal culture. They start thinking in terms of gangs rather than any sort of communist. This phenomena happened with latin american guerrillas, and I am sure it prolly happened in the middle east and ireland too.

As a critique of focoism and traditional conspiratorial Irish republicanism I'd basically agree. however the IRSM pushed for and was involved in mass struggle alongside armed struggle.

[Devrim]

Of course it is a well known fact that the Provisional IRA killed more civilains in its war that it did British soldiers. The majority of those would have been convinced unionists, reactionaries, spies, traitors and so on, and deserved everything they got. And as for the minority that were truly innocent people caught in the crossfire, their deaths are a tragedy that should be deeply regretted, but that happens in every armed struggle.

The majority of 'convinced unionists' were/are workers. This is the pseudo-leftists logic, which justifies these anti-working class campaigns. The strategy of armed nationalism in Ireland offers no perspectives for building class unity. It plays an active role in dividing the working class to the extent that Northern Ireland has the lowest wages in the UK.



These people talk like those do who are justifying murders by the imperialists in the Middle East. "It was an aberration". I have heard that before when civilians have been massacred. The same as "unfortunate incidents like these are going to occur". Oh come on, that's a pathetically weak argument. There's an ever so slight difference between the imperialist warmongers in the Middle East and the IRA and INLA - they represent a different set of class interests, and they are fighting for different things in a different way. There's no relation between the two so stop dragging things offtopic. Revolutionary struggles never come without a price, and innocent people will get hurt - the end we're struggling towards justifies our means and the unfortunate consequences these means will sometimes have.

It is not my argument. It is just an observation. Other good examples can be seen in both of the quotes from you above. I don't think they represent different class interests, but the same ones, the interests of bourgeois nationalism.



It was carried out by two men who requested the arms to defend themselves from loyalists (one man's brother had just been murdered). There was also an INLA member along, but he was later dealt with by the leadership. Obviously the man was deranged and should not have been given the weapon.


It sounds like a classic sectarian attack to me. Perhaps. To me it sounds more like a badly thought out attack on British troops with a callous disregard for the civilian lives present. But that's not really all that important - PRC-UTE clearly stated that the INLA member present was deal with later. This was not an INLA attack, this was an attack by a couple of loose cannons, one of whom happened to be an INLA member acting without any orders from his leadership. Stop twisting things!

I would suggest you actually find out what you are talking about before you start to attempt to make excuses for these type of actions. The attack in question was not on the British army. Rather they walked into a church, and shot three protestants at random. And you tell me to "stop twisting things".

Devrim

[Pogue]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with carrying out bank robberies to fund your struggle, and your moralistic horror at this reflects how liberal your politics still are. And as to the charge that the PRM and the IRSM were pushing drugs to fund their cause... that's complete bullshit, unsubstantiated slanders put out to discredit the movement, and you should be ashamed of yourself repeating them as if they have some validity. The INLA kneecap fucking drug dealers! And good on them for doing it.



If you could ever prove to me I believe in liberalism, I promise you I will request personally to be sent to the opposing ideologies section of the forum. Until then, stop throwing it around like an insult.
I find it funny how you don't comment, in quoting this post, on me saying you can't justify executing workers and innocent people generally. Because you cannot justify it. But you're narrow-minded, because you believe the sun shines out of any 'Anti-Imperialist struggle' armed group's arse.

If its liberal to oppose the bombing and shooting of civilians simply because they are Protestant, I'll contact Nick Clegg ASAP and ask him to send me my membership direct.

And when I say they're involved in crimes, I ask, is there proof, which there is, because there are documented cases of them murdering, stealing and dealing, proof of them basically being transformed to a criminal gang, it shows they've reached that stage of developement in armed thug groups, and thats the stage when they maintain the pretext of revolutionary struggle as a front for the fact they're out to make money illegally.

Moralistic horror, lol. Yeh, I'm genuinely morally opposed to sectarian murder of innocents. I think its disgusting and a betrayal of the workers cause.

It helps to use your own mind occasionaly rather than slavishly following the teachings of an authortiarian dictator, it helps you to come to conclusions such as "Shooting workers in the head because they are Protestant is bad".

[Andropov]

Untrue, he was a dentist. His father-in-law, Austin Darragh, was a rich business man. I don't think that you seriously expect people to believe that a dentist was the second richest man in Ireland.

Just let's remind people of what O'Hare said about this:





OK, it just happened to be reported a little differently. Obviously the bourgeois press were lying again:





Your comrade thinks differently:



It sounds like a classic sectarian attack to me.



Oh god no, O'Hare threatened his family that he would die if they didnt provide the money. Shocking altogethor, ive never heard the like of it. Is there any lent to which these baby eating terrorists wont stoop.:crying:
It was a war, cry me a fukcing river.

Yes indeed they were.
You need to get some actually reliable sources.
No wonder you have such a contorted view of the INLA if you use the Irish press as a source, merely the mouthpiece of the special branch.
It really does boggle the mind that someone thousands of miles away seems to know better than the childs parents.
It is slightly sickening.
The father of child accepted the official appology by the INLA for her killing.
Research that why dont ya?

My comrade said there was an INLA man in the operation.
But the INLA had nothing to do with the operation.
The INLA did not sanction nor condone the gruesome murders.
It proves nothing, only that there were sectarian elements every where in the north.
But the INLA did attempt to weed them out as much as possible and certainly did not condone any such actions.

[Andropov]

For all his twisting of the facts and his bad position, at least Devrim is coming at this from a consistent political position as a left-communist - he's coming at this on the basis of revolutionary politics. The other people slandering the Republican movement in this thread are just reformist liberals scared of violence and the negative consequences it sometimes has. You'll find it kinda hard to make revolution wherever you live with that attitude.

I cannot appreciate what he says when he uses lies and fabrications to justify his slander.
I have no problem with people having misconceptions, but the fact that he preachs to people invovled in the movement as if he knows better is really shockingly arrogant.

[Andropov]

And when I say they're involved in crimes, I ask, is there proof, which there is, because there are documented cases of them murdering, stealing and dealing, proof of them basically being transformed to a criminal gang, it shows they've reached that stage of developement in armed thug groups, and thats the stage when they maintain the pretext of revolutionary struggle as a front for the fact they're out to make money illegally.


No there isnt, your a fukcing lier.
Give me one piece of evidence that the INLA was ever involved in dealing.
The lies being spewed out here are scandalous.

[Andropov]

If its liberal to oppose the bombing and shooting of civilians simply because they are Protestant, I'll contact Nick Clegg ASAP and ask him to send me my membership direct.


When did the INLA ever sanction an attack on innocent Portestant workers?
I yet again eagerly await evidence for your lies.

[black magick hustla]

btw Dev is irish and has republican parents. so its not "thousands of miles away".

[Andropov]

btw Dev is irish and has republican parents. so its not "thousands of miles away".

Explains alot.

[Devrim]

Yes, actually from Northern Ireland, and I lived there at the worst points of the troubles, so yes, I do know what these people are actually like.

Devrim

[Andropov]

Yes, actually from Northern Ireland, and I lived there at the worst points of the troubles, so yes, I do know what these people are actually like.

Devrim

Can you actually provide evidence for your allegations?
Or is this just going to be a thread for personel opinions?

You said they were drug dealers, etc.
I ask for evidence of drug dealing, convictions etc, not fabricated news articles.

You said that the INLA targeted a young girl because of her brother.
I asked for evidence of them actually targeting her, or was it an accident?
I even mentioned the fact that her father accpeted the INLA's apology.

You mentioned the Pentecostal massacre, saying it was an INLA sectarian attack.
Just because one member of the INLA took part proves nothing.
This member was later dealt with by the INLA for dragging its name through the dirt.
Can you proivde evidence that it was sanctioned by the INLA?

Can you provide evidence for any of these allegations or will this continue to go around in circles?

[black magick hustla]

I dont think his point is whether the INLA sanctioned something as an organization or not. But the fact that this kind of stuff is frequent due to the way this organizations work and the atmospheres they perpetuate. its a phenomenon that generally happens with armed groups that take the struggle by themselves.

[Andropov]

I dont think his point is whether the INLA sanctioned something as an organization or not. But the fact that this kind of stuff is frequent due to the way this organizations work and the atmospheres they perpetuate. its a phenomenon that generally happens with armed groups that take the struggle by themselves.

Well now this is a whole new issue, a question that is quite expansive.
We could start a new thread on it but I would prefer to address the allegations thrown at the INLA in this thread.

[Devrim]

Can you actually provide evidence for your allegations?
Or is this just going to be a thread for personel opinions?

It is quite amusing that you would say that as I have tried to doccument things, and you have just abused people.


You said they were drug dealers, etc.
I ask for evidence of drug dealing, convictions etc, not fabricated news articles.

Actually, I didn't. Go back and check.


You said that the INLA targeted a young girl because of her brother.
I asked for evidence of them actually targeting her, or was it an accident?
I even mentioned the fact that her father accpeted the INLA's apology.

Well yes, I provided a piece from a newspaper article describing the events, and you...just denied it, well proven.


You mentioned the Pentecostal massacre, saying it was an INLA sectarian attack.
Just because one member of the INLA took part proves nothing.

And they provided the guns too actually.


This member was later dealt with by the INLA for dragging its name through the dirt.
Can you proivde evidence that it was sanctioned by the INLA?

No, but then I never claimed it was. In fact I mentioned that it had been condemned when I brought it up:


However, the INLA was involved in the Mountain Lodge Pentecostal Church murders, even though they were later condemned,

But involved, well yes, a member was one of the killers and you the INLA provided the guns. I would say that that counts as involved.


Can you proivde evidence that it was sanctioned by the INLA?

No, but then I didn't claim it had been.


Can you provide evidence for any of these allegations or will this continue to go around in circles?

I don't think it is going round in circles. I think the nature of the INLA is clear to most readers.

Devrim

[Andropov]

It is quite amusing that you would say that as I have tried to doccument things, and you have just abused people.



Actually, I didn't. Go back and check.



Well yes, I provided a piece from a newspaper article describing the events, and you...just denied it, well proven.



And they provided the guns too actually.



No, but then I never claimed it was. In fact I mentioned that it had been condemned when I brought it up:



But involved, well yes, a member was one of the killers and you the INLA provided the guns. I would say that that counts as involved.



No, but then I didn't claim it had been.



I don't think it is going round in circles. I think the nature of the INLA is clear to most readers.

Devrim

You count newspaper articles as evidence?
That is shocking really.
Theres a reason why in places like Coolock the Sunday World is refered to as "the sunday spoof".
Give me some factual evidence, not some second rate propagandist journalism.

They provided the guns to the member for self defence.
Not for the purpose of carrying out a sectarian massacre.
A big difference.

It is going round in circles.
You use isolated incidents in its near 40 year history to try and claim that the INLA has some form of sectarian nature to it.
Incidents which have been discredited.

[Saorsa]

The majority of 'convinced unionists' were/are workers. This is the pseudo-leftists logic, which justifies these anti-working class campaigns. The strategy of armed nationalism in Ireland offers no perspectives for building class unity. It plays an active role in dividing the working class to the extent that Northern Ireland has the lowest wages in the UK.

The majority of soldiers in imperialist armies were/are workers. The majority of Nazi Party members were workers. If you're involved in or actively support a far-right, reactionary and pro-imperialist organisation your class background is irrelevant - you are an enemy to be won over if possible, and eliminated if necessary.

The Republican movement had and still has many protestants and otherwise non-Catholics in it's ranks, and the only reason it drew most of it's support base from Catholic workers was because Catholics were discriminated against and oppressed by the British colonial state. A state like that one, which was shooting down protesters and murdering republican and/or socialist activists, needs to be destroyed. Your apparent belief that the Republicans should have instead been putting all their energies into trade union work or whatever to raise wages is economism at it's worst.


It is not my argument. It is just an observation.

The observation formed a part of and led onto your argument, that Republican Socialists are no different to American imperialism.


I would suggest you actually find out what you are talking about before you start to attempt to make excuses for these type of actions. The attack in question was not on the British army. Rather they walked into a church, and shot three protestants at random. And you tell me to "stop twisting things".

I thought you were referring to the attack on the disco, my mistake. However, my main point stands - this was not an attack planned, ordered or carried out by the INLA. It was an unrelated attack in which an INLA member took part of his own volition using a weapon supplied on the assumption it would be used for self-defence, not murdering civilians. Anyone with a brain can realise this, and you are deliberately distorting what happened to suit your anti-national liberation agenda.


If you could ever prove to me I believe in liberalism, I promise you I will request personally to be sent to the opposing ideologies section of the forum. Until then, stop throwing it around like an insult.

Almost every post you make confirms your liberalism, I can't quote that many. All people need to do is scroll up through this thread and it's plain to see. "The IRA and the INLA were criminals! That's totally barbaric!" *swoons in horror*


I find it funny how you don't comment, in quoting this post, on me saying you can't justify executing workers and innocent people generally. Because you cannot justify it. But you're narrow-minded, because you believe the sun shines out of any 'Anti-Imperialist struggle' armed group's arse.

I don't need to justify or comment on that because the PIRA and the INLA never took actions like those. The few cases where it happened were aberrations, and the IRA and the INLA made official apologies for civilian casualties that took place due to their actions.

And I don't belive the "sun shines out of any 'Anti-Imperialist struggle' armed group's arse" at all. I'm not that big a fan of groups like Islamic Jihad and Hamas, for example (although that does not in any way lessen my support for the Palestinian cause). The key difference here is that the PRM (to a large extent) and the IRSM were revolutionary socialist organisations, and even if you disagree with this you should still support the entirely just struggle of the Irish people for national liberation.


And when I say they're involved in crimes, I ask, is there proof, which there is, because there are documented cases of them murdering, stealing and dealing, proof of them basically being transformed to a criminal gang, it shows they've reached that stage of developement in armed thug groups, and thats the stage when they maintain the pretext of revolutionary struggle as a front for the fact they're out to make money illegally.

"I have here in my hand a list of 205 . . . a list of names that were made known to the Secretary of State as being members of the Communist Party and who nevertheless are still working and shaping policy in the State Department. ..."

You seem to have drawn your method of providing "proof" from this man.


Moralistic horror, lol. Yeh, I'm genuinely morally opposed to sectarian murder of innocents.

As are republican socialists.


I think its disgusting and a betrayal of the workers cause.

I feel the same way about your unsubstantiated slanders against the IRSM.


It helps to use your own mind occasionaly rather than slavishly following the teachings of an authortiarian dictator, it helps you to come to conclusions such as "Shooting workers in the head because they are Protestant is bad".

Lol, that must be it, when I disagree with you and point out how rubbish your arguments are it must have been beamed into my mind from beyond the grave by Stalin... nice try. :lol:


But involved, well yes, a member was one of the killers and you the INLA provided the guns. I would say that that counts as involved.

So if a member of your organisation was involved in an incident like this, I take it we should use it as a cheap card to condemn your entire organisation? Or if a member of yours visited a brothel, we should se it as evidence that your organisation is involved in the sex trade? Give me a break.

[Devrim]

If you're involved in or actively support a far-right, reactionary and pro-imperialist organisation your class background is irrelevant - you are an enemy to be won over if possible, and eliminated if necessary.

I really think that this statement shows the state of your thinking. As a communist I believe that working class revolution can not be made without support of the vast majority of that class. I believe that it is something made by the class itself, not little gangs acting on behalf of the class.

I also believe that there will be times when it is necessary to kill workers who take the wrong side. This, however, is not what you are saying. You are openly talking about the possibility of 'eliminating', which I presume is a code word for 'murdering' the majority of the working class in a particular area.

I really find this kind of talk quite frightening as in countries that I have lived in talk liked this has often been used as a prelude to sectarian massacre. Thankfully you are a schoolboy living in a country without a particularly high level of ethnic/sectarian/national tension.


I thought you were referring to the attack on the disco, my mistake.
Well yes, the attack on the disco was a bombing, not a shooting, but I don't think it really matters to you. You jumped to the defense of actions that took place probabely before you were born, on the other side of the world that you know almost nothing about because, it fits into your disturbed idea of socialism.


The Republican movement had and still has many protestants and otherwise non-Catholics in it's ranks,

It has 'many'? Are you using the word 'many' here in the way that other people use 'very few'?


However, my main point stands - this was not an attack planned, ordered or carried out by the INLA. It was an unrelated attack in which an INLA member took part of his own volition using a weapon supplied on the assumption it would be used for self-defence, not murdering civilians. Anyone with a brain can realise this, and you are deliberately distorting what happened to suit your anti-national liberation agenda.

So what you were saying is that an INLA member took part in an attack made with INLA guns, and that the INLA were in absolutely no way involved in this attack. I leave it to others to decide if this is in anyway believable.


I don't need to justify or comment on that because the PIRA and the INLA never took actions like those [executing workers].

But as has been shown they did. Kingsmill is the best example. The execution of 10 workers.


So if a member of your organisation was involved in an incident like this, I take it we should use it as a cheap card to condemn your entire organisation? Or if a member of yours visited a brothel, we should se it as evidence that your organisation is involved in the sex trade? Give me a break.

If a member of our organisation went to a brothel, I would say it was his own business. You are painting this as if it were something he did on his own time, like some people go fishing. It is not. It was a sectarian murder comitted by a member of this organisation with weapons provided by this organisation.

Devrim

[Devrim]

For all his twisting of the facts and his bad position, at least Devrim is coming at this from a consistent political position as a left-communist - he's coming at this on the basis of revolutionary politics. The other people slandering the Republican movement in this thread are just reformist liberals scared of violence and the negative consequences it sometimes has. You'll find it kinda hard to make revolution wherever you live with that attitude.

Slandering implies that the things being said are untrue. They are not. I don't think that the people's arguments in this thread express 'reformist liberalism'. Even though I think some of the posters arguing against the IRSM have very confused politics. I think that what they express here is the genuine revulsion within the working class for sectarian murders and random bombings.

Devrim

[Pogue]

Almost every post you make confirms your liberalism, I can't quote that many. All people need to do is scroll up through this thread and it's plain to see. "The IRA and the INLA were criminals! That's totally barbaric!" *swoons in horror*


You clearly don't understand what liberalism is. I'll open a debate thread with you in which you prove I am a liberal, which is, as the definition goes, someone who believes in the ideology of liberalism.

Right now I am requesting a debate on this. Do you agree to one?

[Andropov]

You clearly don't understand what liberalism is. I'll open a debate thread with you in which you prove I am a liberal, which is, as the definition goes, someone who believes in the ideology of liberalism.

Right now I am requesting a debate on this. Do you agree to one?


Can you address the accusations you made and provide factual evidence?
Do so, or retract your comments.

[Andropov]

Slandering implies that the things being said are untrue. They are not. I don't think that the people's arguments in this thread express 'reformist liberalism'. Even though I think some of the posters arguing against the IRSM have very confused politics. I think that what they express here is the genuine revulsion within the working class for sectarian murders and random bombings.

Devrim

You use a grain of truth in every slanderous accusation and then build a web of lies around it.
That is just the same as lieing.
You have yet to produce some factual evidence for your allegations other than some biased bourgoise journalism.
Saying that the INLA were responsible for the penetecostal massacre like.
It was an individual acting in isolation.
Something that the INLA was not responsible for.
Or the terrible accident with regards the young girl being shot.
It was not intentional and was a horrific accident.
Something her own father accepted.
So if he was capable of coming to terms with an apology from the INLA for it being an accident I think someone thousands of miles away should be able aswell.

[Pogue]

Can you address the accusations you made and provide factual evidence?
Do so, or retract your comments.

What, that the INLA killed innocent civilians? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/2554261.stm

Yeh, there were soldiers involved. But I don't think a genuine socialist group would be prepared to set off a bomb in an area where they would have full well known that innocents would be killed.

Small terroist acts by gangs like that don't work. This wasn't a guerilla war, it was a dirty war. And innocents died.

[Pogue]

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/inla-man-feigned-friendship-but-ordered-my-death-1056983.html

[Pogue]

And say what you want, theres no point because I wont be believed, the old bourgeoisie propoganda, but its well known that the INLA are involved in drug dealing and kill rival dealers. I'd post the report, but it's done by the British security forces so you wouldn't accept it as a valid source. You'd say the British lie, they'd say you lie. I'm sceptical of both sides seeing as they're both full of thuggish murderers.

[Killfacer]

It's heartening to see that alot more of the left than i once beleived do not support the IRA. Why would i care about these people? If they were still around today,they would think it was fine for me to die in one of their terrorist attacks. Why should i feel anything for someone who would happily kill me?

[Dóchas]

i dont think many people support the IRA because they dont know the history behind it. from when it was set up in 1913 (i think) to possibly the early seventies it was fighting for a 32 county ireland but since then i think its just developed into a bunch of thugs. in the beginning it was fighting for a country but it ended with people fighting for themselves. i know im gonna get bombarded with shit but i just thought id put that out there.

[Sam_b]

If they were still around today,they would think it was fine for me to die in one of their terrorist attacks. Why should i feel anything for someone who would happily kill me?

The ceasefire should be supported in my mind.

But I do not agree in the slightest with your sentiment. Do you not think that the Irish people have a right to defend themselves from occupation and annexation, and the crimes of the British? Does this mean you would not support the Iraqi people's right to resist either?

[Pogue]

That depends entirely on who they harm when they do it. The popular method for most of these liberation strugglist is bombings, which always seem to end up killing the people they claim to liberate. Thats wrong.

[Magdalen]

The ceasefire should be supported in my mind.

But I do not agree in the slightest with your sentiment. Do you not think that the Irish people have a right to defend themselves from occupation and annexation, and the crimes of the British? Does this mean you would not support the Iraqi people's right to resist either?

The SWP hasn't exactly had a progressive position on Ireland over the years. Back in 1969 Socialist Worker supported the deployment of British troops in the Six Counties claiming that "The presence of British troops will provide a vital breathing space", and that "To say that the immediate enemy in Ulster is the British troops is incorrect." Today Ireland - a nation which Marx and Lenin both said must be liberated in order to achieve a British revolution, doesn't even merit a mention in Socialist Worker's "Where We Stand" column.

In the week of Bobby Sands' death on hunger strike, Socialist Worker's headline was simply the word "Victory". But this headline was not in support of the hunger strikers struggle. It was "celebrating" the victory of social-democrat Francois Mitterand in the French Presidential election. In 1982, the SWP accused the IRA of "helping" Margaret Thatcher by relegating coverage of new unemployment statistics from the front pages. Chris Harman stated that the IRA "must move from talking merely of national unity and engage all workers, North or South, Catholic or Protestant, Irish or British - on issues of unemployment, working conditions, and welfare services." James Connolly once described this type of doctrine as "almost screamingly funny in its absurdity" for failing to recognise national oppression and British Imperialism's presence in Ireland.

By saying that the "ceasefire" should be supported, you fail to recognise the consequences of the 1998 Peace Agreement. The Agreement has enshrined the Unionist veto over the future of the Six Counties. Its three strands of government merely serve to consolidate and strengthen British Imperialism in Ireland. At a recent meeting in Derry, attended by 600 people, Tony McPhilips of Republican Sinn Fein stated that "The message here today is the same message that has come throughout the history the republican movement, and it is this - 'that we want an end to British rule in Ireland and we will never accept any half way houses'." This should be the demand of all principled socialists.

[Seven Stars]

And say what you want, theres no point because I wont be believed, the old bourgeoisie propoganda, but its well known that the INLA are involved in drug dealing and kill rival dealers. I'd post the report, but it's done by the British security forces so you wouldn't accept it as a valid source. You'd say the British lie, they'd say you lie. I'm sceptical of both sides seeing as they're both full of thuggish murderers.

If the INLA was involved in drugs, then members of the INLA would be in prison on drugs charges. There are none what so ever. One of the recent media reports where the RUC/PSNI claimed to have raided RSM member's houses for drugs was proven to be 100% false when the search warrent was produced which stated they were only looking for counterfeit cigarettes.

[PRC-UTE]

I dont think his point is whether the INLA sanctioned something as an organization or not. But the fact that this kind of stuff is frequent due to the way this organizations work and the atmospheres they perpetuate.

"Frequent"... what are you on about?

I only know of one sectarian attack that can be in any way attributed to the INLA. One attack - which was not sanctioned and primarily was made up of nonmembers using gear borrowed under false promises of using them for defence - in over two decades of being at war. That's not "frequent".

The criminal elements within the INLA came about because the British infiltrated the groups resisting them. This has been proven, and it happens in every revolutionary struggle.

your comrade Dev there already admitted that the INLA didn't spend much time in sectarian attacks (he of course managed to phrase it in an insulting way, it was cute).

[PRC-UTE]

You clearly don't understand what liberalism is. I'll open a debate thread with you in which you prove I am a liberal, which is, as the definition goes, someone who believes in the ideology of liberalism.

Right now I am requesting a debate on this. Do you agree to one?

Because your arguments spend a lot of time engaged in rhetoric like '...but they're criminals!!' which is clearly a liberal argument. Lenin despised this kind of reverence for legality.

So far the people here criticising republican socialism have yet to come up with one post that would advance a dialogue. not one suggestion for what working class socialists under an occupation should've done instead has been offered. But then this a logical outcome to be expected from political traditions that do not differentiate between the Third Reich and the Soviet Union; a political tradition that has never even played a leading role in a revolution, yet has all the answers.

[Devrim]

"Frequent"... what are you on about?

I think there is a grammar mistake in there*. It is a general statement, not specifically about the IRSM


I only know of one sectarian attack that can be in any way attributed to the INLA. One attack - which was not sanctioned and primarily was made up of nonmembers using gear borrowed under false promises of using them for defence - in over two decades of being at war. That's not "frequent".

I think that there are more. I think the disco bombing, for example, was a sectarian attack. It depends how you define 'sectarian attack'.


The criminal elements within the INLA came about because the British infiltrated the groups resisting them. This has been proven, and it happens in every revolutionary struggle.

This is a difficult statement to prove to prove or disprove. Certainly these type of organisations are riddled with infiltrators. Certainly gangsterism develops in these type of organisations. Whether the two things are connected in a different question. I would say not. I think that they are largely two separate phenomenon.


your comrade Dev there already admitted that the INLA didn't spend much time in sectarian attacks (he of course managed to phrase it in an insulting way, it was cute).

I don't think I admitted any such thing. It was a one line aside about how they were too busy feuding with each other to do much. The comment is here for people to read:


http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1294383#post1294383) True the INLA had less time for sectarian killings as it was too busy with its gangsterism, and murderous internal fueds.


I wanted to say something about these comments, but didn't have time before going to work and lost track:


Darkley wasn't a representative example of the INLA though. You yourself admitted they didn't fight a sectarian war earlier, you said:

It would've been pretty odd if the IRSM's Protestant leaders (there were several) were committing sectarian atrocities against other prods.

Yeah, I see members of my own Party who happen to be Protestants as 'the enemy'.

I didn't say any such thing. I said partition divides the working class and the removal of the six county state would be helpful. I actually have Protestant comrades and Protestant relatives, and your cheap attacks are just sad.

*"But the fact that this kind of stuff is frequent due to the way this organizations work and the atmospheres they perpetuate." I think it should read "those". Otherwise there would be three mistakes.

I don't believe that PRC-UTE is a sectarian. I don't believe that the majority of members of the RSM are actually sectarians. I believe that the actions of their organisations are part of the tendency towards developing sectarianism within society as a whole.


But then this a logical outcome to be expected from political traditions that do not differentiate between the Third Reich and the Soviet Union; a political tradition that has never even played a leading role in a revolution, yet has all the answers.

Your last post seemed to confuse things. You start by quoting HLVS, and then talk about what I presume is our tradition. He isn't a left communist and I wouldn't want people to be confused about that.

As for your comments:


do not differentiate between the Third Reich and the Soviet Union

I assume that we are talking about how in the Second World war, we said it was an imperialist war, and that workers shouldn't take sides. If so that is true.


a political tradition that has never even played a leading role in a revolution,

The left communists were a majority in the German party at the time of the revolution, and played a leading role in the revolution. The same was true during the 'two red years' in Italy. Certainly they played an important role in the Russian revolution, and one could argue that the entire party, including Lenin, was won to the positions of the left at the vital point.


So far the people here criticising republican socialism have yet to come up with one post that would advance a dialogue. not one suggestion for what working class socialists under an occupation should've done instead has been offered.

You repeat this again, and again. Of course it is untrue, and we have talked about these things lots of times if not on this thread. I think though that it is very difficult for us to have a constructive dialogue with people who are stuck within the 'republican socialist' tradition. The divergences are too large. I will give just one example;

As I stated above, we believe that you need the vast majority of the working class to make a revolution. This means that it can only be built on the back of class unity. It is impossible to make a revolution against the will of the majority of the working class. The RSM starts from a completly different point, and to be honest, you as well as I know we both have a very different idea of what a revolution is.

Devrim

[Andropov]

And say what you want, theres no point because I wont be believed, the old bourgeoisie propoganda, but its well known that the INLA are involved in drug dealing and kill rival dealers. I'd post the report, but it's done by the British security forces so you wouldn't accept it as a valid source. You'd say the British lie, they'd say you lie. I'm sceptical of both sides seeing as they're both full of thuggish murderers.

Yet again no evidence of INLA involvement of the drug trade.
Give me one conviction of an INLA man with regards Drugs?
All im asking one conviction with anything remotely to do with drugs in its near 40 year history?
If drug dealing is so widespread in the organisation as you state you would think that at least one INLA man was convicted with some drugs related offence?
If you cannot provide any evidence for your slanderous claims, I suggest you retract them.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0429/1209158570334.html

[Andropov]

What, that the INLA killed innocent civilians? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/2554261.stm

Yeh, there were soldiers involved. But I don't think a genuine socialist group would be prepared to set off a bomb in an area where they would have full well known that innocents would be killed.

Small terroist acts by gangs like that don't work. This wasn't a guerilla war, it was a dirty war. And innocents died.

Ugghh the droppin well.
Do you even know the story behind that?
The droppin well was a pub frequented by squaddies and was a popular spot for them.
The INLA warned the owners of the droppin well numerous times to rethink their policy on courting her majesties foot soldiers.
But they ignored the warnings along with those who chose to socialise with the squaddies.
Its regrettable that civilians died, but it was a war.
It had its collateral damage.
Get over it and dry your eyes.
War isnt nice, its dirty and full of regrettable actions.
Unfortunately at the time it was the only progressive course available.

[Killfacer]

But I do not agree in the slightest with your sentiment. Do you not think that the Irish people have a right to defend themselves from occupation and annexation, and the crimes of the British? Does this mean you would not support the Iraqi people's right to resist either?

I think that they are perfectly within rights to defend themselves from occupation. The problem i have with both of the examples you use is that they both use/d methods which cause/d an unjustifiable amount of innocent casualties.

I do not know who you are reffering to when you say "the iraqi people". Are you talking about the general population? Most of them don't want to defend themselves against anything, they just want to get on with their shattered lives. Or are you talking about religious fundementalists? In which case i have no sympathy for them because they are homophobic sexist scum who are happy to see children die in their "resistance".

[Saorsa]

I also believe that there will be times when it is necessary to kill workers who take the wrong side. This, however, is not what you are saying. You are openly talking about the possibility of 'eliminating', which I presume is a code word for 'murdering' the majority of the working class in a particular area.

When I said "eliminating" I was using it as a synonym for "killing". I thought it would be obvious, but there you go. Why on earth would I support "murdering the majority of the working class in a particular area"? That's totally inconsistent with every post I've made on this site!


Well yes, the attack on the disco was a bombing, not a shooting, but I don't think it really matters to you. You jumped to the defense of actions that took place probabely before you were born, on the other side of the world that you know almost nothing about because, it fits into your disturbed idea of socialism.

Ah, the old "You weren't there so you don't know anything about it!" argument, I heard it a lot at high school (which I'm no longer at btw). I don't have an indepth knowledge of every single act that took place in the Irish struggle, but I know more than "almost nothing", and it'd be nice if you responded to my actual arguments rather than making condescending personal attacks like that. Sadly I don't think we can expect much better of you...


It has 'many'? Are you using the word 'many' here in the way that other people use 'very few'?

No, I wasn't.


So what you were saying is that an INLA member took part in an attack made with INLA guns, and that the INLA were in absolutely no way involved in this attack. I leave it to others to decide if this is in anyway believable.

This is going round in circles. I and others have already responded to this, and I won't be going into it any further. Repeating the same thing over and over again does not make it any more convincing an argument.


But as has been shown they did. Kingsmill is the best example. The execution of 10 workers.

That was an aberration. It was not an official, previously planned attack ordered by the INLA high command. This has already been established. The Red Army commited similar acts during the Russian Civil War,and I'm not about to label them a bunch of counter-revolutionary thuggish gangsters.


If a member of our organisation went to a brothel, I would say it was his own business. You are painting this as if it were something he did on his own time, like some people go fishing. It is not. It was a sectarian murder comitted by a member of this organisation with weapons provided by this organisation.

But he did do it on his own time! That's the whole point! This man did not carry out that sectarian attack on the orders of the INLA leadership, he did it of his own accord and on his own time, yes. The weapons were not provided with the intention of them being used for sectarian killings, and I doubt even you are going to try and pretend otherwise, so that is entirely irrelevant.

It's interesting to note how much faith H-L-V-S puts in the bourgeois media's honesty, and in things that "everybody knows". I suppose it saves having to find and provide reputable evidence!

[Pogue]

That was an aberration. It was not an official, previously planned attack ordered by the INLA high command. This has already been established. The Red Army commited similar acts during the Russian Civil War,and I'm not about to label them a bunch of counter-revolutionary thuggish gangsters.



Yeh, and look how they ended up.

[Andropov]

Yet again no evidence of INLA involvement of the drug trade.
Give me one conviction of an INLA man with regards Drugs?
All im asking one conviction with anything remotely to do with drugs in its near 40 year history?
If drug dealing is so widespread in the organisation as you state you would think that at least one INLA man was convicted with some drugs related offence?
If you cannot provide any evidence for your slanderous claims, I suggest you retract them.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0429/1209158570334.html

HLVS please respond to this post with some actual evidence for your slanderous claims.

[Pogue]

Is it worth me posting a report by the commission which was created by the British government which states they know the INLA are involved in the drug trade, or is that just going to be denounced as bourgeoisie propoganda?

[Andropov]

Is it worth me posting a report by the commission which was created by the British government which states they know the INLA are involved in the drug trade, or is that just going to be denounced as bourgeoisie propoganda?

You count that as evidence?
A puppet of the British State, the very same British state which started this mud throwing.
Give me convictions and names of INLA men who have been caught red handed with involvment with drugs.

[Pogue]

So you wont accept the supposed evidence? To be honest, I doubt you'd accept any, so why should I evern bother? You've clearly desided to blindly support the INLA, you'll just renounce any evidence I have. If I found a conviction, you'd say the judge and jury were bias, the evidence was fixed, etc.

[Andropov]

So you wont accept the supposed evidence? To be honest, I doubt you'd accept any, so why should I evern bother? You've clearly desided to blindly support the INLA, you'll just renounce any evidence I have. If I found a conviction, you'd say the judge and jury were bias, the evidence was fixed, etc.

No I wouldnt as it is factual evidence.
Hear say from journalists or commissions without evidence is not a reliable source.
Think of it as a court case.
Some actual factual evidence.

[Pogue]

Factual evidence comes from sources and you're going to deny any of my sources because its unlikely any of them will come from Irish Republican Socialist's isn't it?

[Andropov]

Factual evidence comes from sources and you're going to deny any of my sources because its unlikely any of them will come from Irish Republican Socialist's isn't it?

Just give me convictions, you need a certain amount of evidence for a conviction.
And if drug dealing as endemic as you say surely those convictions will be easy to come by.

[Devrim]

But as has been shown they did. Kingsmill is the best example. The execution of 10 workers.
That was an aberration. It was not an official, previously planned attack ordered by the INLA high command. This has already been established.

I think this is a good examle of how you have absolutley no idea of what you are talking about. Nobody, and please take the time to look back at the thread, has claimed that the INLA were responsible for the Kingsmill attack. It was an IRA attack. Please pay attention to the thread.


Ah, the old "You weren't there so you don't know anything about it!" argument, I heard it a lot at high school (which I'm no longer at btw). I don't have an indepth knowledge of every single act that took place in the Irish struggle, but I know more than "almost nothing", and it'd be nice if you responded to my actual arguments rather than making condescending personal attacks like that.

Well, yes, if you knew what others were talking about it would be possible to answer. As it is there is a huge factual error in every post. What should we think you are talking about.



It has 'many'? Are you using the word 'many' here in the way that other people use 'very few'? No, I wasn't.

So there are many people from protestant backgrounds in the IRSM? Really you have no idea what you are talking about. A few, maybe, but many? Absurd.

Then again you have no idea what you are talking about. It comes through more with every post.


I also believe that there will be times when it is necessary to kill workers who take the wrong side. This, however, is not what you are saying. You are openly talking about the possibility of 'eliminating', which I presume is a code word for 'murdering' the majority of the working class in a particular area.
When I said "eliminating" I was using it as a synonym for "killing". I thought it would be obvious, but there you go. Why on earth would I support "murdering the majority of the working class in a particular area"? That's totally inconsistent with every post I've made on this site!

This is shocking.


But he did do it on his own time! That's the whole point! This man did not carry out that sectarian attack on the orders of the INLA leadership, he did it of his own accord and on his own time, yes. The weapons were not provided with the intention of them being used for sectarian killings, and I doubt even you are going to try and pretend otherwise, so that is entirely irrelevant.


So what you are saying is that if so called socialists commit sectarian murders on their own time with weapons provided by the 'non sectarian' organisation, then it is OK.

Devrim

[ComradeOm]

Yeh, and look how they ended up.They won...?

[Jorge Miguel]

What about Kingsmill? Did they shoot those 10 protestant workers dead by accident?Read what I said :

The only organisation who had a deliberate policy of murdering civilians was the Loyalist murder gangs who are part of the state apparatus and defended, funded, directed and trained by both your army and government.

The fact is that the IRA never embarked on a campaign of sectarian murder. Regarding the statistics that people are posting, who exactly are these murdered civilians?

Joy riders?
Drug dealers?
Informers?
People working with the British army / RUC?

The list goes on.

[Jorge Miguel]

So you wont accept the supposed evidence? To be honest, I doubt you'd accept any, so why should I evern bother? You've clearly desided to blindly support the INLA, you'll just renounce any evidence I have. If I found a conviction, you'd say the judge and jury were bias, the evidence was fixed, etc.Go ahead and find one. You'd have more of a chance of finding a needle in a haystack.�

[Andropov]

Im still waiting HLVS?

[Pogue]

They won...?

Did they 'win' in Prague, Kronstadt and Hungary?

[Pogue]

Im still waiting HLVS?

Have you justfied the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droppin_Well_bombing

and the innocents it killed yet?

Because me proving drug dealing would seem to come secondary to you justifying the murder of civilians.

Theres police reports ont he drug dealing, but you wont accept that. Why would I waste my time finding criminal convictions if you're forcing me to find evidence you'll accept? Thats stupid. You'll just poo poo the evidence I give.

[Jorge Miguel]

Theres police reports ont he drug dealingYes, because British state apparatus does not have a vested interest in discrediting those opposed to them. :rolleyes:

Of course the armed defenders of the British presense here in Ireland are going to discredit those who oppose them, particularly armed organisations. The 'police reports' are actually IMC reports and one of those who sits on the IMC was involved in smuggling drugs and counter-insurgency operations in Nicaragua. Credible indeed!

For all the failures of the IRSP (and there are many...), they have more credibility within working class areas than any of the left groups in Ireland - despite the mudslinging and whatever else.

To be honest, you're just a dogmatic fool. There's no point debating with you.

[Jorge Miguel]

So let's see it once and for all -

Where is the evidence of INLA drug dealing?

[Pogue]

Its openly been admitted that if I post evidence form the British security forces it wont be accepted so how can I respond fairly?

[Dóchas]

why do you insist on taking evidence from the british security forces there has got to be some other sources?

[Jorge Miguel]

Its openly been admitted that if I post evidence form the British security forces it wont be accepted so how can I respond fairly?Perhaps this -

The INLA aren't involved in drug dealing.

[Pogue]

I posted a journalists account from an Irish newspaper, but it was renounced because it came from a journalist.

[Wanted Man]

Wow, this reminds me of why H-L-V-S is on my ignore list. A few weeks ago, he sent me some PMs to call me "racist", because I insinuated that he had tendencies towards British imperial arrogance.

Looking from the quotes here, however, I can see that I was wrong. He is clearly a master debater: "The INLA are a bunch of drug dealers. I don't need to show names and convictions. I do have a British security frame-up, but I don't want to post it, because you'll recognise that it's a British security frame-up. No evidence of INLA links to drug trade (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0429/1209158570334.html)? Lalalalala, I can't heaaaar youuuu..."

[Pogue]

Oh shut up. You said because I'm British I have Imperial arogance. Thats racist.

[Killfacer]

H-L-V-S is right. I do not know much about the supposed drug dealing involved, but it is impossible for him to give a source which will not be immediatly be called british imperialist propaganda.

[Jorge Miguel]

H-L-V-S is right. I do not know much about the supposed drug dealing involved, but it is impossible for him to give a source which will not be immediatly be called british imperialist propaganda.
If he can find one that isn't propaganda, then its merits may be discussed. But he won't - because there is no evidence. Saying the police are credible sources and hack journalists that make a living out professional lying is really scraping the barrel. He wont admit he's wrong, despite the fact his statement has no grounding in reality.

Theres an entire industry of this in Ireland and those journalists are directly related to the intelligence services - where else would they get their information?

A local community group in Strabane, Co. Tyrone called Strabane Community Drugs and Alcohol Project believe the INLA are not involved in drugs. This is the main anti-drugs group in the area. The local IRSP work with the project and their anti-drugs work is widely known and regarded.

You can contact the project yourself and ask them about INLA drug dealing, their details can be found on Google.

However, drug dealing aside. The other actions of the INLA and IRSP hardly evoke credibility.

[PRC-UTE]

That was an aberration. It was not an official, previously planned attack ordered by the INLA high command. This has already been established. The Red Army commited similar acts during the Russian Civil War,and I'm not about to label them a bunch of counter-revolutionary thuggish gangsters.


Just to correct something here. Alastair was responding to HLVS here re the atrocity of a busload of protestant workers at Kingsmill. This was not the action of the INLA, it was elements of the PIRA's South Armagh Brigade, which isn't disputed by anyone. It was definitely an aberration for the PIRA South Armagh Brigade, which fought overall a very clean war and took on the British Army's most elite units without being defeated.
There isn't a Kingsmill in the INLA's history that I've heard of where they set out to murder protestant workers. The closest is Darkly, which we've gone over before, and to label it an INLA action is dubious.




really though this is just a big distraction. the INLA hasn't believed there were conditions for war in a decade now. they've changed tactics and there is no evidence that they are gangsters, in fact this is just a bourgeois line to justify arresting party members when they attend meetings (the free state claims that the IRSP's central committe is in fact the army council of the INLA :rolleyes:)

this thread was about Irish republican prisoners. many of them aren't prisoners of war at all, all it takes to get a conviction is the word of a gardaa superintendent. they are thrown in prison for their politics, end of. it's disgusting to me that we can't have one thread about this subject without people derailing it to score cheap points by parroting the capitalist lies about events that happened years ago when different people were in the ranks of the RSM.

[Hessian Peel]

This forum reeks of the ignorance and stupidity of Stormfront.

No you do actually.

You have no idea what you're talking about and even when you were corrected by a Republican poster who clearly has more knowledge of the Irish national liberation struggle and the context in which these men find themselves in prison you continue to spout garbage.

[Pogue]

So any evidence I have given wont be accepted. So its pointless for me to continue in my argument. Too many people here are clearly set on the fact that the sun shines and always has shined out of the arses of the paramilitary groups in the North of Ireland.

I guess its expected though. The British authorities did invent things in the north, they did frame people in Britain and in Ireland (such as the Birmingham Six, Guildford Four) so they cannot be trusted. And yes, the loyalists were, both ideologically, morally, politically and militarily much much much worse than the republicans. That does not deny the fact the republicans, both simple republicans and socialist republicans, did commit atrocities which contradict their general ideology. This is what happens when a small group of angry and armed men decide to start fighting against an army in a highly built up area. They should have thought about what they were doing when people were shot and blown up. The blood is on their hands.

Alot more blood is on the hands of the loyalists, and the British Army and intelligence services, whom in their little imperialist adventure in Ireland which was the contiuniation of 400 years of brutality gained ample experience in crushing freedom movements across the world. We all know the war they fought in the North of Ireland was in a form training for dealing with any domestic disputes.

In the light of a hostile and seemingly pointless argument I'd like to reiterate my Republican beliefs, as someone of Irish heritage who loves the nation and looks in disgust at the atrocities commited there by the British Army and Loylalists over the years. I just regret some of the acts of paramilitary groups on the republican side were questionable. And I cannot wholeheartedly support organisations which kill innocents and members of the working class whose freedom I strive for and desire for as a socialist.

Full respect and fraternity to my socialist comrades, Irish comrades and republican comrades who share the goals of a free humanity and working class in Ireland and everywhere else, and my apologies for any hostility caused in an argument which quite simply isn't going anywhere.

[Hessian Peel]

Of course it is a well known fact that the Provisional IRA killed more civilains in its war that it did British soldiers.

The Republican armies are believed to have killed 738 civilians and over 1,000 members of the British 'security services', not including Loyalist death squads. Get your facts straight.

You may now continue with your liberal cack.

[PRC-UTE]

I think there is a grammar mistake in there*. It is a general statement, not specifically about the IRSM

We agree for once. His statement doesn't apply to the INLA.



I don't think I admitted any such thing. It was a one line aside about how they were too busy feuding with each other to do much. The comment is here for people to read:

I acknowledged that you made a snide comment already, no need to repeat yourself. however you admitted the INLA weren't fighting a sectarian war.

Then you contradict yourself:



I think that there are more. I think the disco bombing, for example, was a sectarian attack. It depends how you define 'sectarian attack'.

Yes, indeed, and your view of it overlaps neatly with the British imperialists. the republicans weren't fighting a sectarian war, unless you selectively examine the evidence.



I don't believe that PRC-UTE is a sectarian. I don't believe that the majority of members of the RSM are actually sectarians.

you said I see the protestant working class as the enemy. yet I'm not sectarian? :lol:

make up your mind a chara.



Certainly they played an important role in the Russian revolution, and one could argue that the entire party, including Lenin, was won to the positions of the left at the vital point.

sure you could also argue a lot of things that are rubbish.

[Devrim]

The Republicans armies are believed to have killed 738 civilians and over 1,000 members of the British 'security services', not including Loyalist death squads. Get your facts straight.

You may now continue with your liberal cack.

Please show one statistic that says the IRA killed over 1,000 British soldiers. It is not true.

Devrim

[Devrim]

however you admitted the INLA weren't fighting a sectarian war.

No, I didn't. You just made that up.


Yes, indeed, and your view of it overlaps neatly with the British imperialists. the republicans weren't fighting a sectarian war, unless you selectively examine the evidence.

I don't think you need to selectively analyse the evidence at all. Sure, we concentrate on the big events, but then so do people there living on the ground. That is how perceptions develop. I think that it has been well demonstrated on this thread that the IRSP was involved in sectarian attacks. I also think that it is quite clear that bombing discos does nothing to build class unity, and in fact plays a part in dividing the class.


you said I see the protestant working class as the enemy. yet I'm not sectarian? :lol:

I don't think that you are a sectarian. I don't think that you see protestant's as the enemy in themselves as individuals. I do think that you hold to an ideology that see the mass of protestant workers as the enemy, and has nothing to offer them as workers.


sure you could also argue a lot of things that are rubbish.

The April Theses is the adoption of the left's positions. Before the April Theses Lenin argued a position very simple to that of the Mensheviks that Russia wasn't ready for a socialist revolution. The Bolshevism of October is very much a product of the left.

Devrim

[Hessian Peel]

Please show one statistic that says the IRA killed over 1,000 British soldiers. It is not true.

Devrim

The (P)IRA and INLA killed over 700 British military personnel and over 300 police-paramilitaries.

[Hessian Peel]

I think that it has been well demonstrated on this thread that the IRSP was involved in sectarian attacks.

I doubt that very much as the IRSP has never killed or injured anyone. If you mean the INLA you're still wrong.


I also think that it is quite clear that bombing discos does nothing to build class unity, and in fact plays a part in dividing the class.

Ballykelly was a successful operation. Any civilians who were killed shouldn't have been associating with members of the occupation forces.


I do think that you hold to an ideology that see the mass of protestant workers as the enemy, and has nothing to offer them as workers.

'Working class unity' is an ultra-leftist myth. How can you have unity with a reactionary pro-imperialist bulwark? Of course there's nothing wrong with individual Protestants but there can be no unity unless they drop Loyalism like a hot potato.

[Devrim]

The (P)IRA and INLA killed over 700 British military personnel and over 300 police-paramilitaries.

So by your own statistics they they killed 'over 700 British military personnel', and '738 civilians'. I didn't claim members of the security forces. I claimed more civilians than British soldiers. Look back at the thread. I actually clarified this earlier and was very clear about what I actually meant. So actually my facts are straight on this one.


I doubt that very much as the IRSP has never killed or injured anyone. If you mean the INLA you're still wrong.

It's a typo. You are of course right about the IRSP. I would say that Ballykelly was a sectarian attack though.


Ballykelly was a successful operation. Any civilians who were killed shouldn't have been associating with members of the occupation forces.

I think that this shows perfectly well the difference between what I am arguing, and what the RSM supporters are arguing.


'Working class unity' is an ultra-leftist myth.

At least they are being honest now. They don't believe that class unity is possible.


How can you have unity with a reactionary pro-imperialist bulwark? Of course there's nothing wrong with individual Protestants but there can be no unity unless they drop Loyalism like a hot potato.

I agree, the protestant working class has to break from Loyalism before there can be class unity. How are you going to get them to do that? Are you going to bomb them into it?

Just as their can't be class unity until the protestant working class breaks with loyalism, neither can there be class unity until the catholic working class breaks with Republicanism.

Northern Ireland is a place where the working class is terribly weak, and yes, the idea of class unity can sometimes 'seem like a myth'. The question is whether socialists act in ways that work towards in, or in ways that make it even more improbable.

Devrim

[Madvillainy]

'Working class unity' is an ultra-leftist myth.

This is shocking.

[Andropov]

The only time that there will be widespread working clss unity, or even the possibility of it is when British Imperialism is removed from Ireland.
It was these very British Institutions that imported Sectarianism into Ireland, the old British Imperialist mantra of "Divide and conquer".
A shining example of this theory is in the free state where Protestant and Catholics exist in absolute harmony, with little Sectarianism.
Connolly, Marx and Lenin all believed in this theory.

[black magick hustla]

i like how atheists take a sectarian stance and tag along a side in the whole protestant vs catholic thing

[Pogue]

The thing I hate about socialism with nationalist or republican tinges is that by its very nature it will sacrifice its commitment to socialism in order to pursue its nationalist goals. Hence why the PIRA and all the other paramilitaries murdered innocents, and called for nationalism whilst suporting a internationalist ideology. If you taint socialism it will screw up. This much happened in Ireland.

[Jorge Miguel]

H-L-V-S


So any evidence I have given wont be accepted.You haven't given any evidence in the first place. If you have, please re-post.


The blood is on their hands.
Typical ultra-leftist bullshit. The blood is on the hands of British imperialism - no one else. This entire conflict is their creation.


And I cannot wholeheartedly support organisations which kill innocents and members of the working class whose freedom I strive for and desire for as a socialist.
What about your idol, Lev Bronstein?

:scared::scared::scared::scared::scared:

[Jorge Miguel]

this thread was about Irish republican prisoners. many of them aren't prisoners of war at all, all it takes to get a conviction is the word of a gardaa superintendent. they are thrown in prison for their politics, end of. it's disgusting to me that we can't have one thread about this subject without people derailing it to score cheap points by parroting the capitalist lies about events that happened years ago when different people were in the ranks of the RSM.Yet if it was Palestine, Latin America or somewhere far away, exotic and sexy they'd be all over it.

[Killfacer]

Yet if it was Palestine, Latin America or somewhere far away, exotic and sexy they'd be all over it.

Thats just ridiculous. Comparing fucking Palestine to northern ireland. Don't even bother with that one.

[Pogue]

H-L-V-S

You haven't given any evidence in the first place. If you have, please re-post.


Typical ultra-leftist bullshit. The blood is on the hands of British imperialism - no one else. This entire conflict is their creation.

What about your idol, Lev Bronstein?

:scared::scared::scared::scared::scared:

Since when was Trotsky my idol?

[Jorge Miguel]

Since when was Trotsky my idol?Well, what about the POUM? They killed members of the working class but sure, don't let that corrupt your concept of being ideologically pure and having a moral highground above Irish Republicanism on subjective bullshit like 'theyve killed people'.

[Jorge Miguel]

Thats just ridiculous. Comparing fucking Palestine to northern ireland. Don't even bother with that one.I wasn't comparing Palestine to northern Ireland - read what I said, I was saying the British left are all over similar issues when it's politically expedient, i.e. issues of repression in far-off lands. Because it's that just - far-off. It's easy to build up a concept of romantic struggle in distance places, yet the concrete reality was on these peoples own doorsteps.

[Devrim]

He is not the only person arguing against them. I certainly don't consider myself part of the 'British left', and Palestine is nearer to home for me than Ireland.

Devrim

[Hessian Peel]

This is shocking.

Why?

[Hessian Peel]

So by your own statistics they they killed 'over 700 British military personnel', and '738 civilians'. I didn't claim members of the security forces. I claimed more civilians than British soldiers. Look back at the thread. I actually clarified this earlier and was very clear about what I actually meant. So actually my facts are straight on this one.

And the difference between the RUC-PSNI and the British military is....?


It's a typo. You are of course right about the IRSP. I would say that Ballykelly was a sectarian attack though.The aim was to kill and/or injure British soldiers, which happened, so where's the sectarianism?


I think that this shows perfectly well the difference between what I am arguing, and what the RSM supporters are arguing.You can say that again, and I only support the RSM in a broad sense as they're part of the Irish national liberation movement.


At least they are being honest now. They don't believe that class unity is possible.Well honesty (or lack there of as the case may be) is what divides the "Left" into pathetic liberals on one side and genuine revolutionaries on the other. There is no chance of working class unity between Republican/Nationalist and Loyalist communities without a British withdrawal and the establishment of a 32 County Socialist Republic. The way things are going these days pigs are likely to fly first.


I agree, the protestant working class has to break from Loyalism before there can be class unity. How are you going to get them to do that? Are you going to bomb them into it?That's like asking any socialist "How are you going to win the majority or a sufficient number of people over to socialist ideas?" the truth is I have no easy answers but bombing and gunning people certainly wouldn't work.


Just as their can't be class unity until the protestant working class breaks with loyalism, neither can there be class unity until the catholic working class breaks with Republicanism.Bullshite. There are very few Republicans in Ireland. That's the problem.


Northern Ireland is a place where the working class is terribly weak, and yes, the idea of class unity can sometimes 'seem like a myth'. The question is whether socialists act in ways that work towards in, or in ways that make it even more improbable.So the national liberation struggle should be abandoned then, in favour of what exactly? :confused: To say the working class in any part of Ireland is weak is an understatement. To be blunt: there simply isn't one, at least not one worth mentioning.

[Hessian Peel]

Did they 'win' in Prague, Kronstadt and Hungary?

Yes.

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/5972/pwned2qo6.jpg

[Devrim]

And the difference between the RUC-PSNI and the British military is....?

It is not the point. What I claimed was that both the IRA and the INLA killed more civilians than they did British soldiers. It is true as you well know. I didn't claim that they killed more civilians than members of the security forces.


The aim was to kill and/or injure British soldiers, which happened, so where's the sectarianism?

Maybe you should ask yourself whether 11 soldiers is enough to " justify the possibility of (catholic) civilian killings".


That's like asking any socialist "How are you going to win the majority or a sufficient number of people over to socialist ideas?" the truth is I have no easy answers but bombing and gunning people certainly wouldn't work.

Yet this is exactly the strategy that the Republicans adopted.


To say the working class in any part of Ireland is weak is an understatement. To be blunt: there simply isn't one, at least not one worth mentioning.

Well, I think the opinions of these people about the working class are becoming more and more clear.

Devrim

[PRC-UTE]

i like how atheists take a sectarian stance and tag along a side in the whole protestant vs catholic thing

some strawman.

to point out that the British have divided the working class doesn't mean we are tagging along on any side. the British played the game of divide and conquer, we're just stating the reality of the situation. this is not the same thing as an endorsement of sectarianism.

the IRSP however has Protestant members, Protestant martyrs and has had Protestants in its leadership. I know many republican socialists outside the IRSM as well who are Protestant. the IRSP does work with Loyalists and Protestants on the ground, more so than most of the Left in Ireland.

obviously if we're saying the removal of British rule can lead to greater working class unity and is necessary to fight for socialism, we don't discount the unity of the working class, rather it's our goal (unfortunatley most the Left takes a very idealist and abstract approach- whereas our analysis takes into account the fact that British rule is tied to a system of sectarian privileges that is divisive to proletarian unity and has played a central role in defeating revolutionary opportunities. many on the Left don't want to hear that so they attack the messenger).

[Hessian Peel]

It is not the point. What I claimed was that both the IRA and the INLA killed more civilians than they did British soldiers. It is true as you well know. I didn't claim that they killed more civilians than members of the security forces.

So it was just an irrelevant comment then?


Maybe you should ask yourself whether 11 soldiers is enough to " justify the possibility of (catholic) civilian killings".

The loss of civilian life is deeply regrettable, but they were forewarned and what were they doing socialising with British soldiers who were occupying their country anyway?


Yet this is exactly the strategy that the Republicans adopted.

No it wasn't.

The Republican armies fought a war against the British state in Ireland.


Well, I think the opinions of these people about the working class are becoming more and more clear.

That's the general idea.

[Pogue]

Well, what about the POUM? They killed members of the working class but sure, don't let that corrupt your concept of being ideologically pure and having a moral highground above Irish Republicanism on subjective bullshit like 'theyve killed people'.

They killed fascists. Not innocent workers. Read what I've said first. And look at you, taking the ideological highground. Because you're detached from the Republican struggle, you don't suffer when innocent people are murdered. What a horrible and fake person you are.

[Pogue]

Yes.

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/5972/pwned2qo6.jpg

Were these victories for the working class, and the socialist movement?

Posting animal porn doesn't signify a victory by the way.

[Hessian Peel]

They killed fascists. Not innocent workers. Read what I've said first. And look at you, taking the ideological highground. Because you're detached from the Republican struggle, you don't suffer when innocent people are murdered. What a horrible and fake person you are.

I know Topulli personally and he is more of a Republican and Socialist than you will ever be ye pup.

[Hessian Peel]

Were these victories for the working class, and the socialist movement?

Posting animal porn doesn't signify a victory by the way.

That's not animal porn. It's an artistic representation of the relationship between the USSR and Eastern European states in the mid-20th century.

[PRC-UTE]

They killed fascists. Not innocent workers.

Much of the fascist army were conscripts. So the POUM probably killed more workers than the republicans did.

And mistakes definitely happen in any war. I'm really shocked that people expect wars of liberation and revolutions to go smoothly, and find reasons to reject them on the basis of how pure they are or not, rather than analyse what class interest they represent. I don't expect any revolution or war to go smoothly at all, I expect the opposite, and I don't know how it could be otherwise.

when you step out of reading about what happened in Spain in the 30s or what happened in Germany or Russia at the beginning of the last century, you find out that real world practice is a lot messier and sometimes you're not presented with good options.



What a horrible and fake person you are.

He's not at all. He's probably done far more than you have, in fact I know very few personally who've been more active in the working class struggle than this comrade.

[Pogue]

Were those three events victories for socialism and the working class?

[Hessian Peel]

Were those three events victories for socialism and the working class?

Two of them were.

[Pogue]

What ones?

[Hessian Peel]

What ones?

Kronstadt and Hungary.

[Pogue]

Oh good, at least now I know your analysis is generally shit, so I know not to take you seriously.

[PRC-UTE]

the story about political prisoners/POWs has been restarted here due to the thread being derailed completely.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/50-irish-political-t95841/index.html?p=1299018#post1299018

[Hessian Peel]

Oh good, at least now I know your analysis is generally shit, so I know not to take you seriously.

Likewise I know to avoid your anarcho-liberal dribble in future.

[Hessian Peel]

the story about political prisoners/POWs has been restarted here due to the thread being derailed completely.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/50-irish-political-t95841/index.html?p=1299018#post1299018

I apologise comrade for contributing to the derailment of the thread.

FREE ALL POLITICAL PRISONERS/POWs!

[Jorge Miguel]

They killed fascists. Not innocent workers. Read what I've said first. And look at you, taking the ideological highground. Because you're detached from the Republican struggle, you don't suffer when innocent people are murdered. What a horrible and fake person you are.Considering I live in Ireland and have had family members imprisoned, murdered by agents of imperialism and I've been subject to police harassment myself (along with Hessian, might I add). So yeah, keep lecturing me about 'the real struggle' because the people here actually lived through it. It was more than pushing a paper from a stall on a Saturday afternoon in a town center - long haired students who dress according to long gone youth subcultures have absolutely no prospect of gaining any sort of working class support. The IRSP members I know are well respected in my community and recognised as hard workers in the cause of national liberation and socialism. They are from this community, suffered the hardships and drawed serious conclusions for the road ahead. What they don't intend to do is provide prescriptions ala the argument that the armed struggle here was individual terrorism - it wasn't until the 80s. Even a curious read of Leon Trotsky's pamplet on armed struggle would suffice to resolve this question but no, ready made solutions, know it alls and those who believe they have the key are no better than members of a cult preaching. The SWP and SP have been using the same tactics for 30 odd years and still, their organisations are still tiny rumps compared to the IRSP, who to all intends seem to have a consistent membership. Why is that? Perhaps its the case that IRSP members don't get burned out by pretending to have simple ready-made solutons to complex issues.

Things don't progress in straight lines according to predefined ideological concepts, history does not proceed according to the wishes of individuals. We need to work with the best of what we have. Like it or not, the Provos and INLA were at the forefront of the struggle for national liberation. I'm just as critical of armed struggle as anyone else but that's the reality. The civil rights movement did not have the capability to defeat partition and capitalism, neither do anti-water charges campaigns. The rhetoric about 'working class unity' is just that. Broad-based economist campaigns have no prospect of developing into a force that will get rid of partition.

For all the faults of the IRSP, they are the only left-wing group in Ireland with any sort of credibility in woking class areas. That's the reality. No amount of lies about drug dealing will change this fact, no amount of English and D4 liberal eejits pushing the Socialist Worker in their posh accents and telling Irish people how to fight their own struggle will change that fact.

The IRSP are the political inheritors of the legacy of James Connolly and Frank Ryan. The trendy left can import all the ready-made solutions that they want but they'd be just as well looking at what's wrong with their own organisations before coming out with these lies regarding the IRSP. The IRSP is totally honest about it's history, parts of which are absolutely regrettable and deformations of the struggle for nat. lib. but they are open and honest about it and have engaged in rigourous self-criticism.

I'm not saying the IRSP is the solution or has the answers but unlike the Trotskyites who import ready-made solutions they don't pretend to. The IRSP are a valuable part of the Irish left that have to be recognised and worked with.

Your country was at war with mine. The 'crimes' committed in England during the bombing campaigns were regrettable, but absolutely nothing compared to the crimes committed againist Irish people over centuries of English exploitation. Successive British governments are to blame for murdered civilians, not Republicans.

If only Marx had the same approach towards the Fenians as the SWP's pro-imperialist policy againist Irish Republicans.... :lol:

[Pogue]

Seeing as the slur has been used again, I challenge anyone to prove I am an adovcate or follower of the ideology of liberalism.
If calling for an end to a bloody and corrupt conflict in which both sides kill innocent workers makes me liberal then I think alot of people here will be liberals. Funny how they have not been restricted. Maybe its because liberal is an insult used by authoritarian socialists who have no ability to diverge from their dogmatic ideology.

Also funny how the people arguing against sectarian murder and class treachery in Ireland from thugs with no interest but continuing a conflict which they're using to serve their own interests in an organisation which ironicly is probably about 50% British Intelligence anway would call us liberal and all this and as an insult, and say we're hippies in the SWP when Devrim isn't in the SWP and neither am I.

Stop being bitter about the fact anarchists and left communists have a genuine political outlook beyond supporting anyone who fires a bullet in the name of national liberation regardless of who the bullet hits. I highly doubt you're genuinely active, or if you are why your activism is more significant than mine or Devrim's or anyone in the SWP's.

[Hessian Peel]

Seeing as the slur has been used again, I challenge anyone to prove I am an adovcate or follower of the ideology of liberalism.

Revolution is an often bloody, dirty business and you're unwillingness to recognise that there is no such thing as a perfect social revolution would suggest you subscribe to a liberal, moralist and ultimately pacifist view of the world. Do you think the POUM and the Anarchist fighters in Spain were just perfect human beings who never made any mistakes?


If calling for an end to a bloody and corrupt conflict in which both sides kill innocent workers makes me liberal then I think alot of people here will be liberals.Indeed they are.


Maybe its because liberal is an insult used by authoritarian socialists who have no ability to diverge from their dogmatic ideology. Anarchists, Left Communists and some Trotskyites are usually the most dogmatic and sectarian people on the "Left". You're the one who's setting a certain standard that everything must live up to even though things never develop evenly in the real world.


Also funny how the people arguing against sectarian murder and class treachery in Ireland from thugs with no interest but continuing a conflict which they're using to serve their own interests in an organisation which ironicly is probably about 50% British Intelligence. Have the present-day Provisional Republican Movement been mentioned in this discussion?


and say we're hippies in the SWP when Devrim isn't in the SWP and neither am I. Who claimed you were a member of the SWP?


Stop being bitter about the fact anarchists and left communists have a genuine political outlook beyond supporting anyone who fires a bullet in the name of national liberation regardless of who the bullet hits. And what are Anarchists, Left Communists and pseudo-Marxist Trotskyite social-democrats like the SWP doing to end the occupations of Ireland, the Basque country, Chechnya, Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc etc etc? The national liberation movements are the only credible opposition to imperialism at present.

[Pogue]

And what are Anarchists, Left Communists and pseudo-Marxist Trotskyite social-democrats like the SWP doing to end the occupations of Ireland, the Basque country, Chechnya, Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc etc etc? The national liberation movements are the only credible opposition to imperialism at present.


These movements put nationalism ahead of class struggle. They always sell out. You want to get rid of Imperialism amd replace it with what? Irish capitalism? We know if socialism happened in Ireland alone it would fail. Thats socialism in one country. Look to the USSR. You dilute the workers movment and create false conciousness by mixing the struggle of the working class with nationalism. Your theory of imperialism seems to just be you justifying a bit of violent action in soem country or other no matter how fucked up the organisation initiating it is. Genuine resistance is working class resistance not nationalist resistance.


Indeed they are.

I hope you mean people in OI, otherwise I might have to listen to a load of bollocks about how anyone who does not support armed thug groups and authoritarian nutters are somehow 'liberal'.


Revolution is an often bloody, dirty business and you're unwillingness to recognise that there is no such thing as a perfect social revolution would suggest you subscribe to a liberal, moralist and ultimately pacifist view of the world. Do you think the POUM and the Anarchist fighters in Spain were just perfect human beings who never made any mistakes?


The last genuine revolutionary activity in Ireland ended in the early first half of the 20th century. I don't oppose revolutionary struggle and I know its violent because the bourgeoisie oppose it, but the PIRA, OIRA, INLA are not revolutionaries. They never were and never will be the genuine representatives of the working class and thus wont lead their struggles.
The anarchists and the POUM were fighting against fascism and defending the genuine working class led social revolution that happened in Spain which temporarily created a communist society. There is nothing wrong with killing aggressive fascists, especially when they started a war against a democratic nation and were murdering civilians and left wing soldiers alike. The INLA, PIRA etc were/are a far cry from the International Brigades, POUM and CNT. The leftists in Spain were actualy fighting as and for the people rather than blowing up the people.


Who claimed you were a member of the SWP?

It was inferred that those of us who argue against sectarian murder are hippies who sell SWP papers.

[Hessian Peel]

These movements put nationalism ahead of class struggle. They always sell out. You want to get rid of Imperialism amd replace it with what? Irish capitalism? We know if socialism happened in Ireland alone it would fail. Thats socialism in one country. Look to the USSR.

It is not necessarily about whether a particular organisation's politics are socialist or not but rather what class interests a movement, such as the national liberation one in Ireland, serves. Setting national liberation as a primary objective does not equate to 'putting nationalism first'. It is simply a matter of recognising what steps need to be taken in order for socialism to be constructed, and having an imperialist-occupation in one's country would certainly make that task a lot more difficult.

Irish capitalism already exists and flourishes because of the Southern state's close relationship with the United States, the UK and other imperialist powers in Europe. The Irish ruling class are only so favoured because they have long agreed to surrender any claim to sovereignty over the country's territory and are more than willing to be used as a launch pad for imperialist wars in the Middle East or a money launderer for multi-national vampyres. They are also never hesitant to assist the British in maintaining their occupation of the North-East of Ireland. Since the inception of the state Republicans and Socialists alike have been beaten, tortured, gaoled and murdered at the behest of the occupier. And you think I want this situation to persist?

I agree that socialism cannot exist in isolation, especially in today's truly globalised economy, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't attempt to create something similar and make the best of the situation until a world revolution occurs or imperialism is toppled once and for all. And that is exactly what happened in the USSR, which couldn't have developed any other way given the absence of social revolutions in Western Europe and North America. Are those who tried to make the best of the situation to blame for the shortcomings of the Soviet Union? No, capitalistic-imperialism is.


You dilute the workers movment and create false conciousness by mixing the struggle of the working class with nationalism. Is the nationalist sentiment we uphold not progressive? What is it Marx said about the Irish? 'They're at their most internationalist when at their most nationalist'? This applies to all oppressed nations and peoples.


Your theory of imperialism seems to just be you justifying a bit of violent action in soem country or other no matter how fucked up the organisation initiating it is.How exactly?


Genuine resistance is working class resistance not nationalist resistance.Are you seriously suggesting that it is anyone else but the working class and peasantry throughout the world that form the back-bone of the national liberation movements?


I hope you mean people in OI, otherwise I might have to listen to a load of bollocks about how anyone who does not support armed thug groups and authoritarian nutters are somehow 'liberal'. "Armed thug groups"? You should look into a career as a right-wing servile journalist hack.


The last genuine revolutionary activity in Ireland ended in the early first half of the 20th century.What was different about the 'Old' IRA's campaign and that of the (P)IRA and the INLA in the 1970s and early 1980s?


I don't oppose revolutionary struggle and I know its violent because the bourgeoisie oppose it, but the PIRA, OIRA, INLA are not revolutionaries. They never were and never will be the genuine representatives of the working class and thus wont lead their struggles. I think the working class communities who received and continue to receive protection from the INLA and other Republicans would beg to differ. How would you have dealt with giant mobs of crazed reactionaries burning people out of their homes or state forces and state-sponsored death squads butchering people left, right and centre?


The anarchists and the POUM were fighting against fascism and defending the genuine working class led social revolution that happened in Spain which temporarily created a communist society. It did not create a communist society. One minute you can't have socialism in isolation in a land-mass the size of the USSR but now you can have it in small backward rural villages and Anarchist military units in 1930s Spain. I'll admit there were impressive advances made in some areas by the Anarchists but the middle of a war with Hitlerite-fascism is not the time for social experimentation.


There is nothing wrong with killing aggressive fascists, especially when they started a war against a democratic nation and were murdering civilians and left wing soldiers alike. But it isn't okay to fight other types of reactionaries who are doing the very same?


The INLA, PIRA etc were/are a far cry from the International Brigades, POUM and CNT. The leftists in Spain were actualy fighting as and for the people rather than blowing up the people. So the Republican/Socialist side in the Spanish Revolution didn't kill any civilians, not even by accident? :confused:

[Madvillainy]

The national liberation movements are the only credible opposition to imperialism at present.

Class war not national liberation is the only real opposition to imperialism.

[Hessian Peel]

Class war not national liberation is the only real opposition to imperialism.

National liberation is class war.

[Andropov]

Considering I live in Ireland and have had family members imprisoned, murdered by agents of imperialism and I've been subject to police harassment myself (along with Hessian, might I add). So yeah, keep lecturing me about 'the real struggle' because the people here actually lived through it. It was more than pushing a paper from a stall on a Saturday afternoon in a town center - long haired students who dress according to long gone youth subcultures have absolutely no prospect of gaining any sort of working class support. The IRSP members I know are well respected in my community and recognised as hard workers in the cause of national liberation and socialism. They are from this community, suffered the hardships and drawed serious conclusions for the road ahead. What they don't intend to do is provide prescriptions ala the argument that the armed struggle here was individual terrorism - it wasn't until the 80s. Even a curious read of Leon Trotsky's pamplet on armed struggle would suffice to resolve this question but no, ready made solutions, know it alls and those who believe they have the key are no better than members of a cult preaching. The SWP and SP have been using the same tactics for 30 odd years and still, their organisations are still tiny rumps compared to the IRSP, who to all intends seem to have a consistent membership. Why is that? Perhaps its the case that IRSP members don't get burned out by pretending to have simple ready-made solutons to complex issues.

Things don't progress in straight lines according to predefined ideological concepts, history does not proceed according to the wishes of individuals. We need to work with the best of what we have. Like it or not, the Provos and INLA were at the forefront of the struggle for national liberation. I'm just as critical of armed struggle as anyone else but that's the reality. The civil rights movement did not have the capability to defeat partition and capitalism, neither do anti-water charges campaigns. The rhetoric about 'working class unity' is just that. Broad-based economist campaigns have no prospect of developing into a force that will get rid of partition.

For all the faults of the IRSP, they are the only left-wing group in Ireland with any sort of credibility in woking class areas. That's the reality. No amount of lies about drug dealing will change this fact, no amount of English and D4 liberal eejits pushing the Socialist Worker in their posh accents and telling Irish people how to fight their own struggle will change that fact.

The IRSP are the political inheritors of the legacy of James Connolly and Frank Ryan. The trendy left can import all the ready-made solutions that they want but they'd be just as well looking at what's wrong with their own organisations before coming out with these lies regarding the IRSP. The IRSP is totally honest about it's history, parts of which are absolutely regrettable and deformations of the struggle for nat. lib. but they are open and honest about it and have engaged in rigourous self-criticism.

I'm not saying the IRSP is the solution or has the answers but unlike the Trotskyites who import ready-made solutions they don't pretend to. The IRSP are a valuable part of the Irish left that have to be recognised and worked with.

Your country was at war with mine. The 'crimes' committed in England during the bombing campaigns were regrettable, but absolutely nothing compared to the crimes committed againist Irish people over centuries of English exploitation. Successive British governments are to blame for murdered civilians, not Republicans.

If only Marx had the same approach towards the Fenians as the SWP's pro-imperialist policy againist Irish Republicans.... :lol:

Brilliant post, says it all really.

[Leo]

National liberation is class war.

It obviously is not according to a marxist since marxist analysis starts from pointing out that every "nation" is made up of classes, and a national struggle necessarily refers to a struggle lead by the national bourgeoisie.

Claiming that national liberation is class war is very close to the proletarian nations theory.

[Hessian Peel]

It obviously is not according to a marxist since marxist analysis starts from pointing out that every "nation" is made up of classes, and a national struggle necessarily refers to a struggle lead by the national bourgeoisie.

While the national liberation struggle is part of the so-called 'democratic' or bourgeois revolution the bourgeoisie needn't necessarily lead it and it is the task of communists within the national liberation movement to make sure they don't.

[duffers]

It's been happening amongst the far left for a century or so now; too many know it alls just don't actually know what is going on in Ireland.

HLVS is the prime example. Only revolutionary action occurred in the early 20th century, did it? So we'll just forget the Trot group Saor Éire in the 60's and INLA's inception from Stalinist OIRA, with revolutionaries such as Seamus Costello, Ta Power, and Ronnie Bunting?

Like Topulli said, with a great post, things cannot go exactly as written. Yeah, the hypothetical argument is the prefable one, but we have to be realistic. Ireland has always been, and will always be split in numerous ways. Republicanism, and by that, I mean the truest sense, the egalitarian one as espoused by Tone, Connolly and O'Donnell (and by fuck I'm not going to argue about that after Libcom) admittedly has fallen on tough times. Our finest moment I believe was under O'Donnell's leadership; Saor Éire and Republican Congress of the 30's were fine achievements. In modern times, nationalism of the Provos, Contos and Reals has take over in importance. Agreeably, it's not the nationalism uber alles that others pertain to, but it's not a direction that benefits socialists.

James Connolly rightfully indentified the lack of a working class will, solitarily. For class liberation to come, we require national liberation simultaniously. Wishful thinking of "just a class war will do" has been the status quo of communist theorists for decades now, and it was already so out of touch then. We are dealing with materialist problems beyond the class restraint, and failure to understand that is folly. There is a reason since 1896, affirmative and poignent action has come from republican socialists; those who cannot seperate the will of a Worker's Republic, from the oppression of imperialism, sectarianism, and capitalism.

[Hessian Peel]

It's been happening amongst the far left for a century or so now; too many know it alls just don't actually know what is going on in Ireland.

HLVS is the prime example. Only revolutionary action occurred in the early 20th century, did it? So we'll just forget the Trot group Saor Éire in the 60's and INLA's inception from Stalinist OIRA, with revolutionaries such as Seamus Costello, Ta Power, and Ronnie Bunting?

Like Topulli said, with a great post, things cannot go exactly as written. Yeah, the hypothetical argument is the prefable one, but we have to be realistic. Ireland has always been, and will always be split in numerous ways. Republicanism, and by that, I mean the truest sense, the egalitarian one as espoused by Tone, Connolly and O'Donnell (and by fuck I'm not going to argue about that after Libcom) admittedly has fallen on tough times. Our finest moment I believe was under O'Donnell's leadership; Saor Éire and Republican Congress of the 30's were fine achievements. In modern times, nationalism of the Provos, Contos and Reals has take over in importance. Agreeably, it's not the nationalism uber alles that others pertain to, but it's not a direction that benefits socialists.

James Connolly rightfully indentified the lack of a working class will, solitarily. For class liberation to come, we require national liberation simultaniously. Wishful thinking of "just a class war will do" has been the status quo of communist theorists for decades now, and it was already so out of touch then. We are dealing with materialist problems beyond the class restraint, and failure to understand that is folly. There is a reason since 1896, affirmative and poignent action has come from republican socialists; those who cannot seperate the will of a Worker's Republic, from the oppression of imperialism, sectarianism, and capitalism.

Well said comrade. :)

[Pogue]

National liberation, fighting for the liberation of a nation. I don't think nations need liberating, I think the working class does. Nothing about the IRA groups was revolutionary. Simply fighting doesnt make you a revolutionary.


It did not create a communist society. One minute you can't have socialism in isolation in a land-mass the size of the USSR but now you can have it in small backward rural villages and Anarchist military units in 1930s Spain. I'll admit there were impressive advances made in some areas by the Anarchists but the middle of a war with Hitlerite-fascism is not the time for social experimentation.

The workers controlled the means of production, there was no heirachy or state etc. I suggest you read up on communism and anarchism in Spain, so you can make valid conclusions.

National liberation implies we're going to have some state stage, some stage with a nation, a national movement, implying a state. Thats when the workers movement is manipulated by the bourgeoisie.

The socialists in Spain fought a war against the fascists, at fascism was where their guns were pointed. The IRA groups seemed to plant bombs where they could regardless of who it killed. That includes the 'socialist' INLA.

In every case where there has been 'national liberation' we have wound up with capitalism. Capitalism without imperial control, but capitalism nontheless. Thats what you're calling for. As a communist I oppose that.

[Hessian Peel]

National liberation, fighting for the liberation of a nation. I don't think nations need liberating, I think the working class does. Nothing about the IRA groups was revolutionary. Simply fighting doesnt make you a revolutionary.

Revolutionary war or "fighting" is revolutionary. The Republican Movement (the PRM and the RSM) was probably the only truly revolutionary movement in Western Europe in the last 35 or 40 years and certainly the most effective in a military capacity. The Volunteers lived revolutionary lives and endured the kind of repression that would crack most of the Irish and British "Left" like a plate.


The workers controlled the means of production, there was no heirachy or state etc. I suggest you read up on communism and anarchism in Spain, so you can make valid conclusions. I have flirted with Anarchism/Council Communism/Left Communism myself and so I know the fairy tales. Workers control was limited and didn't last very long. There was a hierarchy and a state and a government which the CNT-FAI participated in. Everything should have been focussed on defeating the fascist scum. The enemies we are pitted against in the struggle for communism are ruthless and efficient and so we should be even more ruthless and efficient if it produces results.


National liberation implies we're going to have some state stage, some stage with a nation, a national movement, implying a state. Thats when the workers movement is manipulated by the bourgeoisie. No, that's when the workers movement seizes state power in order to smash the bourgeoisie and all the forces of reaction. As Cmde. Lenin said "Without state power, all is illusion".


The IRA groups seemed to plant bombs where they could regardless of who it killed. That includes the 'socialist' INLA.Where's your evidence for this claim?


As a communist I oppose that.As a liberal you oppose real socialism.

[Pogue]

I suppose you're as much of a coward and a poor debater as the rest of them, but I'll offer none the less. Prove to me I support and follow the ideolgoy of liberalism and I'll request to be moved to OI. Thats a promise. Give me a one on one debate in the debate thread where you prove I advocate liberalism. If you deny this debate I assume its because you know your wrong and I'm right, and you're a coward. Think about it.

[Hessian Peel]

I suppose you're as much of a coward and a poor debater as the rest of them, but I'll offer none the less. Prove to me I support and follow the ideolgoy of liberalism and I'll request to be moved to OI. Thats a promise. Give me a one on one debate in the debate thread where you prove I advocate liberalism. If you deny this debate I assume its because you know your wrong and I'm right, and you're a coward. Think about it.

Well I don't give a feck either way so feel free to label me a coward.

[Pogue]

So you can't do it. You're wrong, basicaly. Good one.

[Hessian Peel]

So you can't do it. You're wrong, basicaly. Good one.

And you're an arrogant Brit imperialist-apologist wanker.

[Pogue]

I'm willing to have a debate on that one too :rolleyes:

[Pogue]

Basically, criticising the blowing up of innocents and armed struggles does not equate to supporting the British in Ireland. Not that I'd expect you to be clever enough to pick up on that. Such is the case with idiots.

[Jorge Miguel]

Basically, criticising the blowing up of innocents and armed struggles does not equate to supporting the British in Ireland. Not that I'd expect you to be clever enough to pick up on that. Such is the case with idiots.We all agree on killing civilians and continued armed struggle - it's wrong.

What we do not agree on is the fact that some sections of the left feel the need to parrot the Tories with their criminalisation propaganda regarding accusations of drug dealing.

[Jorge Miguel]

National liberation, fighting for the liberation of a nation. I don't think nations need liberating, I think the working class does. Nothing about the IRA groups was revolutionary. Simply fighting doesnt make you a revolutionary.But on the other hand, standing on a street corner in a town center selling newspapers makes you the pinnacle of revolutionary struggle.

[Hessian Peel]

Basically, criticising the blowing up of innocents and armed struggles does not equate to supporting the British in Ireland. Not that I'd expect you to be clever enough to pick up on that. Such is the case with idiots.

Stop you're slabbering love. I am opposed to the blowing up of innocent people. What have I said to make you think differently? You cannot sit on the fence on issues like this and so by claiming to be neutral and deriding the Republican struggle you are in fact supporting the British position, whether that's your intention or not.

[Jorge Miguel]

H-L-V-S (http://www.revleft.com/vb/../member.php?u=14843)

The IRA groups seemed to plant bombs where they could regardless of who it killed. That includes the 'socialist' INLA.

Can we have evidence of this claim or it is another fairy tale of yours?

[Pogue]

Droppin Well? 7 civilians was it?

[Pogue]

And don't be dense Hessian. I oppose Israel, but I don't support Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. I oppose Ahmadinejad but I don't support the USA. I oppose the bombing of civilians, but I also oppose the British Armed Forces. Too deep for you?

What stupid logic. "You must support us regardless of who we blow up because if you don't you support the enemy who also murder innocent people!"

I support the working class >_>

[Jorge Miguel]

Droppin Well? 7 civilians was it?Only one example and at that, quite a weak one too? So where are all these other bombs planted to murder civilians?

Fact - the INLA had issued warnings, telling people to stay away from Droppin' Well and the owners had been warned to stop serving soldiers. They had been warned to stop fraternising and accomodating the enemy - they refused and paid the price. These things happen in war. The POUM murdered "innocent workers" too, remember.

But the POUM is sexy, it's an image - there's no real analysis involved. The left are all image and no content. Raped nuns and murdered priests galore. Fact is, these things happen in war - there is no avoiding them.

You're the sort of lads that I see around the trendy left groups in Belfast who end up in middle class jobs and people wonder 'how did that happen?' Well, it's quite obvious.

[Jorge Miguel]

I support the working class >_>

http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2007/0707/belfast_bayonet.jpg

http://www.flamesofwar.com/Portals/0/all_images/Historical/Stalingrad/Espana-Azul-01.jpg

Innocent working class lads, who didn't know what they were doing.

[duffers]

And you do know, you're using a terrible loss of civilian life as collateral from 20 odd years ago, when the organisation was struggling with sectarian elements?

Awful things happen, and I don't think anyone can disagree that was wrong, but to say that sums up INLA, is absolute bollocks. There are still the only relevant active Marxist republican group in Ireland, and mainly focusing their efforts in the north, where most think it's a lost cause.

[Madvillainy]

There are still the only relevant active Marxist republican group in Ireland, and mainly focusing their efforts in the north, where most think it's a lost cause.

How would you know?

From what I've seen the only place in Ireland where they have any real support or relevancy within working class communities is in Derry. They are non-existent pretty much anywhere else.

And from my experience most of their members don't give a toss about Marxism let alone understand what it is.

[Hessian Peel]

And don't be dense Hessian. I oppose Israel, but I don't support Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. I oppose Ahmadinejad but I don't support the USA. I oppose the bombing of civilians, but I also oppose the British Armed Forces.

In what sense do you oppose the US, UK and Israel? Your claim that Republicans deliberately murdered civilians and that this was standard policy is wearing thin now. Come up with a fresh batch of bullshit.


What stupid logic. "You must support us regardless of who we blow up because if you don't you support the enemy who also murder innocent people!"That's not what I said you plank.


I support the working class Not the Irish working class' right to defend itself though it would seem.

[duffers]

How would you know?

From what I've seen the only place in Ireland where they have any real support or relevancy within working class communities is in Derry. They are non-existent pretty much anywhere else.

And from my experience most of their members don't give a toss about Marxism let alone understand what it is.

From reading. Pray tell, what Marxist group is bigger than the INLA? When they're arguing amongst them and their dog of course.

Ireland being the whole island, not the Republic of Ireland, and I mentioned they were mainly active in the north. "Non-existent pretty much anywhere else" would be 'cause they're mainly active in the north. Quite obvious really, no?

So you've actually spotted INLA members and asked their Marxist credentials eh? "How would you know"?

[Pogue]

In what sense do you oppose the US, UK and Israel? Your claim that Republicans deliberately murdered civilians and that this was standard policy is wearing thin now. Come up with a fresh batch of bullshit.

That's not what I said you plank.

Not the Irish working class' right to defend itself though it would seem.

The INLA isn't the Irish working class defending itself. Its a group of arme dtrigger happy kids claiming to represent them but without actualy doing so.

[Pogue]

Only one example and at that, quite a weak one too? So where are all these other bombs planted to murder civilians?

Fact - the INLA had issued warnings, telling people to stay away from Droppin' Well and the owners had been warned to stop serving soldiers. They had been warned to stop fraternising and accomodating the enemy - they refused and paid the price. These things happen in war. The POUM murdered "innocent workers" too, remember.

But the POUM is sexy, it's an image - there's no real analysis involved. The left are all image and no content. Raped nuns and murdered priests galore. Fact is, these things happen in war - there is no avoiding them.

You're the sort of lads that I see around the trendy left groups in Belfast who end up in middle class jobs and people wonder 'how did that happen?' Well, it's quite obvious.

Read some history, get some facts, come back here and prove your empty claims.

And don't be so stupid as to pretend to yourself that your economic and social situation is any different from mine. What evidence is there that your not a 'trendy' leftist who'll end up in a middle class job? I love all this posturing over an internet forum. From your analysis and opinions its a safe bet you've never even seen someone from Northern Ireland, let alone participated in the workers movement there. Stop playing boy soldiers. Thats what the INLA do. Woops.

[Hessian Peel]

Its a group of arme dtrigger happy kids claiming to represent them but without actualy doing so.

I wouldn't say there are too many "kids" in the INLA.

[Hessian Peel]

Read some history, get some facts, come back here and prove your empty claims.

And don't be so stupid as to pretend to yourself that your economic and social situation is any different from mine. What evidence is there that your not a 'trendy' leftist who'll end up in a middle class job? I love all this posturing over an internet forum. From your analysis and opinions its a safe bet you've never even seen someone from Northern Ireland, let alone participated in the workers movement there. Stop playing boy soldiers. Thats what the INLA do. Woops.

Jesus tap-dancing Christ you're some ****.

[Jorge Miguel]

I love all this posturing over an internet forum. From your analysis and opinions its a safe bet you've never even seen someone from Northern Ireland, let alone participated in the workers movement there. Stop playing boy soldiers. Thats what the INLA do. Woops.You're just acting a fool at this stage by trying to force me to reveal my identity - other people here know me personally and have already attested to my record in previous pages of this thread. I won't reveal my identity but I will say that for a few years I held various leadership positions at different levels in the IRSP. Perhaps, just perhaps, I would be in a position to have a bit more knowledge than you on the history of the IRSP and INLA. Then again, the know it all tendency I spoke about previously strikes again.

Either address the points I made in my previous post or admit you're wrong and move on. The INLA have done some very bad things, Droppin' Well wasn't one of them. As far as I was and still am concerned, it was justified.

[Jorge Miguel]

arme dtrigger happy kids claiming to represent them but without actualy doing so.This is just trolling. The problem is that you're right but your language is not. Result is that you alienate potential supporters and push people further away from your argument, which is right in content but not in how its drafted. The Workers Party went down this road and alienated themselves from the nationalist people by calling the Provos 'green fascist spawn of Hitler'. There was no 'orange fascist spawn of Hitler', of course. There was in reality but the Workers Party and CWI in Ireland (SP) work alongside the PUP, the political representitives of Ulster fascism.

[Jorge Miguel]

Read some history, get some facts, come back here and prove your empty claims.

And don't be so stupid as to pretend to yourself that your economic and social situation is any different from mine. What evidence is there that your not a 'trendy' leftist who'll end up in a middle class job? I love all this posturing over an internet forum. From your analysis and opinions its a safe bet you've never even seen someone from Northern Ireland, let alone participated in the workers movement there. Stop playing boy soldiers. Thats what the INLA do. Woops.
So where are all these other bombs planted to murder civilians?

The INLA had issued warnings, telling people to stay away from Droppin' Well and the owners had been warned to stop serving soldiers. They had been warned to stop fraternising and accommodating the enemy - they refused and paid the price. That's war - The British army cannot expect to murder Irish children with plastic and live ammunition and not expect these things to happen. These things happen in war, no matter how gruesome or regrettable - these people were not civilians. They had been warned.

If Irish women want to whore themselves out to the occupation forces, they do so at a price. Just as in Europe after the defeat of Fascism, revenge was sought. The same happened during the war. Yes, it's awful, but it's their own fault. They had been warned.

Let's be clear though, successive British governments are to blame for the conflict in Ireland. If the Irish people were free of external influences no conflict would exist. There is no subjective or moralistic argument regarding individual actions because they took place in the context of a national liberation struggle which was broader than Droppin' Well.

If you want 'proof' regarding Droppin' Well I can get the files and documents of Jack Holland, author of Deadly Divisions, pm me for details and I will send you photocopies of all the documents you want.

The POUM murdered "innocent workers" too. The Republicans in Spain raped nuns. Why doesn't the same moralist and subjective argument apply to this?

[Coggeh]

So where are all these other bombs planted to murder civilians?

The INLA had issued warnings, telling people to stay away from Droppin' Well and the owners had been warned to stop serving soldiers. They had been warned to stop fraternising and accommodating the enemy - they refused and paid the price. That's war - The British army cannot expect to murder Irish children with plastic and live ammunition and not expect these things to happen. These things happen in war, no matter how gruesome or regrettable - these people were not civilians. They had been warned.
Are you serious ? terrorist tactics (which they are) firstly are sickening and secondly just don't work .
I have very few sympathies with the INLA & IRA's tactics.The IRA are not and hardly ever were a revolutionary organization(in the marxist sense).


If Irish women want to whore themselves out to the occupation forces, they do so at a price. Just as in Europe after the defeat of Fascism, revenge was sought. The same happened during the war. Yes, it's awful, but it's their own fault. They had been warned.:mellow:... I think your internet messed up when it directed you here and not to stormfront.


Let's be clear though, successive British governments are to blame for the conflict in Ireland. If the Irish people were free of external influences no conflict would exist..
Besides the obvious fact that capitalism would still exist ! that instead of a british whip in the north it would very simply be an Irish one .

Your nationalist tendencies have blinded you , I've lived in Ireland all my life .... and you know what .. its not all that great , we have a shit health system ,social partnership with the bosses , an education system in complete crisis. Where in the north they have the NHS ...and if not for the bullshit sinn fein and DUP govt women would have the right to choose , oh one should be so lucky that they live under the crown.

[PRC-UTE]

http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2007/0707/belfast_bayonet.jpg

http://www.flamesofwar.com/Portals/0/all_images/Historical/Stalingrad/Espana-Azul-01.jpg

Innocent working class lads, who didn't know what they were doing.

but this begs the question, are these "workers in uniform", or "state workers"? it's an important question.

I feel bad for these working class lads, so exploited when they smashed up my friends and family's homes. and the Germans were only after some good wine, they didn't intend to kill the Jews or starve the French and Belgian workers.

the working class paddies they shot or tortured were probably anti working class nationalist gangster stalinist terrorists anyway.

[duffers]

Are you serious ? terrorist tactics (which they are) firstly are sickening and secondly just don't work .

The IRA are not and hardly ever were a revolutionary organization(in the marxist sense).



For starters, "terrorist" is a state term.

And you know fuck all about the IRA, especially when sections within were promoting unity between "Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter to break the connection with capitalism", and fought the Blueshirts fascists off the streets of Dublin.

What hinders this argument that dogmatists have, is a lack of fucking knowledge. When someone who actually knows about the Irish republican, and nationalist movements comes forward, let them argue your case, because at the minute, it's quite the poor show.

[Devrim]

Duffers, I think to most readers the case was proven about six pages ago. What we have had mainly for the last six pages if a few republicans throwing insults and ad homins at one person.

On your comments about lack of knowledge, I would say I have a fair knowledge of the republican movement probably better than most posters on this thread. If you would lkike to look back to earlier in the thread, you can see where the facts are coming from and where the empty assertions are coming from.

Devrim

[duffers]

HLVS seems to be throwing a lot of personal attacks himself. People like him and Oliver Lang evidently don't know enough to be speaking about the topic.

My comment was directed at them, not you, having read the last few pages.

[Madvillainy]

So you've actually spotted INLA members and asked their Marxist credentials eh? "How would you know"?

Well from my own experience of the IRSP in Belfast and especially Dublin, I would say they are only a marxist organisation by name.

[Madvillainy]

Oliver Lang evidently don't know enough to be speaking about the topic.

My comment was directed at them, not you, having read the last few pages.

No offense but you get your information on the IRSP and other republicans/nationalists from books, I've dealt with them first hand. I'm sure I am more qualified to speak on the subject than you are.

[duffers]

Again, how exactly were they not "Marxist in name"; did they not know who Trotsky was, when you asked them? What the fuck does anything you've said mean, articulate further.

None taken, I don't get offended by going nowhere remarks.

[Jorge Miguel]

Are you serious ? terrorist tactics (which they are) firstly are sickening and secondly just don't work .
I have very few sympathies with the INLA & IRA's tactics.The IRA are not and hardly ever were a revolutionary organization(in the marxist sense).
:mellow:... I think your internet messed up when it directed you here and not to stormfront.

Besides the obvious fact that capitalism would still exist ! that instead of a british whip in the north it would very simply be an Irish one .

Your nationalist tendencies have blinded you , I've lived in Ireland all my life .... and you know what .. its not all that great , we have a shit health system ,social partnership with the bosses , an education system in complete crisis. Where in the north they have the NHS ...and if not for the bullshit sinn fein and DUP govt women would have the right to choose , oh one should be so lucky that they live under the crown.Read my previous posts. I don't support terrorism. The rest est of your post has already been dealt with also.

[Jorge Miguel]

the working class paddies they shot or tortured were probably anti working class nationalist gangster stalinist terrorists anyway.or individualist terrorists, revolutionary bonapartists or whatever all label your dogmato-volcabulary (hey, I can make up words too!) expends to. Ordinary people don't give a shit.

[Leo]

For starters, "terrorist" is a state term.

No it's not, it is a "tactic" which had been condemned by the workers movement more than a century ago.

[Hessian Peel]

No it's not, it is a "tactic" which had been condemned by the workers movement more than a century ago.

There is a difference, however, between the strategy and tactics of terrorism and that of armed struggle and it was the latter which was being utilised in Ireland from 1916-1923 and again from 1969-1987. Terrorism is now very much a loaded term and has been in Ireland since the British state began its criminalisation policy regarding native resistance to their presence here. Therefore even though those who misguidedly continue to carry out armed actions may indeed be "individual terrorists", there's no value in labelling them as such because then one is simply parroting the establishment's line.

[PRC-UTE]

Well from my own experience of the IRSP in Belfast and especially Dublin, I would say they are only a marxist organisation by name.

I'm betting you don't know too many irps tbh. this sounds more like middle class stereotypes of the irps I usually hear

the core and leading members of the party are very well educated in Marxist politics for the most part, but we have a lot of members that aren't adequately politically conscious which is a problem. but more so the problem is that we have a lot of people who identify with the party who show up to events and even call themselves members who aren't formally members but are more like active supporters. it's a problem that often embarrasses us.

most the left doesn't get it, cos we're bigger than a glorified study group which is all that most the Left actually is. they're unfamiliar with the attendant problems of a larger working class party.

however I've attended party education meetings in Belfast that were very good, also all the leading members I know in Dublin are politically sound people.

[PRC-UTE]

No it's not, it is a "tactic" which had been condemned by the workers movement more than a century ago.

the tactic of individual terrorism has been discredited that's for sure. isolated attacks on bourgeois targets in a time of peace will not provoke an uprising. but you're confusing the armed struggle with individual terrorism. I dont think that oversimplifying history really helps.

however armed struggle to defend a mass movement or pursue its goals in a time of existing conflict is another subject. some form of violence will surely be necessary to destroy the bourgeois state.

from an article by IRSP member Liam O Ruairc:


Woods reduces the republican armed struggle to acts of “individual terrorism” (pp117ff). Yet for all his opposition to the “individual terrorism” of the IRA, Woods should take note that Trotsky said that “under conditions of civil war, the assassination of individual oppressors ceases to be an act of individual terror” (L Trotsky Their morals and ours New York 1968, p46). The conditions in the Six Counties were those of open conflict. In that context, the armed struggle is qualitatively different from individual acts of terrorism. As Connolly put it, “We believe that in times of war we should act as in war.”

source (http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/596/Ireland.htm)

[Andropov]

Well from my own experience of the IRSP in Belfast and especially Dublin, I would say they are only a marxist organisation by name.

What a pointless sweeping statement.
There are some great individuals active in the IRSP in Dublin and Belfast.

[Comrade_Red]

What the fuck is with the Ian Stuart reference? Who was that directed at and why?

It was a reference to the Skrewdriver song, 'Smash the IRA." i was just kidding either way.


Fellas. We can debate over whether or not the Provisional IRA are criminals or not, but not all Irish Republicans are guilty of killing people. That's a stereotype.
Irish republicanism is a leftist issue, so this concerns us.

[Hessian Peel]

We can debate over whether or not the Provisional IRA are criminals
Not much of a debate is needed comrade. The "Provisional" IRA are counter-revolutionary criminals, just like the "Official" IRA. A Sinn Fein member of the Dublin parliament openly stated in said parliament that the only reason for the continued existence of the (P)IRA was so that the organisation could act as a "buffer" and keep dissenting Republicans in check by gathering intelligence on their activities and so forth.

[duffers]

Agreed.

The problem arises from the Irps' failure to act exactly as their favourite theorist desires, despite the fact republicanism couldn't work any other way, and we're now 60 odd years down the line when the far left is no longer as strong as it once was.