Getting angry!

[thinkerOFthoughts]

I posted the article about Stalin trying to foil facism thing, on a different board and instead of a reply to the article all I get is the anti Communist crap! gaaah.


China only recently became more capitalistic (the government was failing economically until they realized they could put make their people indentured servants and sell their cheap goods to the United States). Russia remained extremely communist until the end. And you still haven't addressed Vietnam or North Korea.

And communism is violent because communist leaders are extremely paranoid, and have to use power and force in order to gain and maintain their status.

Besides, isn't your position that Fascism is better?
(I dont know where he got the idea I was Fascist?)

how the hell do I address this crap?

[Plagueround]

I'd recommend this thread (http://www.revleft.com/vb/response-communism-has-t94071/index.html), as it's very similar. In particular, NHIA's post is excellent.

[thinkerOFthoughts]

[quote]Hundreds of thousands of dissenters died in the Cultural Revolution in China.[/quotes]

what should I say to this?

[Plagueround]

Hundreds of thousands of dissenters died in the Cultural Revolution in China.[/quotes]

what should I say to this?Personally, I don't wish to "defend" the history behind the attempts at socialist states, but I do ask that people at least look at the historical context behind them and not hold them to a special light while excusing other nations because they were not communist. Millions were killed in the expansion of America; they nearly wiped out the indigenous people. Hundreds of thousands more were killed when America began expanding it's territories (either through actual establishment of new territory or support/establishment of puppet governments).

Even today, millions of Iraqis that have no association with terrorism or the old regime have been killed or displaced because they were in the way of American interest in the area. 30,000 people a day starve in a world where we produce enough food to feed 12 billion. If capitalism truly represented a benevolent and "good" force against the "evils" of other ideologies or political systems, none of what I've just said would be the case. If people insist on painting communism as inherently violent, they must realize that this is A. Not something exclusive to past communist regimes. B. Not indicative of an inherent flaw in communist ideology. What we hope to accomplish today cannot automatically be hamstrung by what happened in the past.

[ZeroNowhere]

Russia remained extremely communist until the end. And you still haven't addressed Vietnam or North Korea.
Couldn't you just point out that none of them were socialist/communist?

[politics student]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=SkMe669Hqlo

You may find this usefull.

[thinkerOFthoughts]

Couldn't you just point out that none of them were socialist/communist?
ha! lol that thing I posted that you quoted was their response to my saying that they where never truly Communist.

[ZeroNowhere]

Truly communist? They were never anywhere near communism, full stop. For that matter, they were (and are) state capitalist. :D
Also, the USSR haven't been better off after changing from state capitalism to less regulated capitalism either.

[thinkerOFthoughts]

oh man they are agitating me! all I did was mention an article now they are just mocking me! saying stuff like "oh and I was thinking he was going to say next he is an alien or a muslim and america are the true terrorists man its...degrading plus I dont know enough about history and communism to defend myself! all I wanted to do was discuss the article.:crying:

[JimmyJazz]

Differentiate between Communism and communism. That should be the end of it.

[gorillafuck]

I'd suggest not mentioning Stalin.

[JimmyJazz]

You may find this usefull.

While historical knowledge of imperialism is useful, comparing wrongs is a bad route to go as a defense of socialism. What this argument really boils down to is that "Communism has been less bad than Western capitalism". Not exactly the kind of argument that rallies people to your cause (and rightfully not).

[politics student]

While historical knowledge of imperialism is useful, comparing wrongs is a bad route to go as a defense of socialism. What this argument really boils down to is that "Communism has been less bad than Western capitalism". Not exactly the kind of argument that rallies people to your cause (and rightfully not).

I agree but you need to know the history of imperialism to attack after you defend. To shift the argument into your control.

I normally go well communism has had its dark side but its helped many people, then the life expectancy statistics are listed and explaining Cubas system + statistics.

If the 100 million dead come up I normally defend with what source did you get that from and then retort with the stat below.
According to UNICEF, 26,500-30,000 children die each day due to poverty. 10 years and capitalism would have killed 100 million children..... Then explain the mass poverty.

But these debates are never easy as they are often started by people who have no interest in learning any thing about poverty or imperialist history and call it BS propaganda... Best not to debate them really...

[JimmyJazz]

I agree but you need to know the history of imperialism to attack after you defend. To shift the argument into your control.

I normally go well communism has had its dark side but its helped many people, then the life expectancy statistics are listed and explaining Cubas system + statistics.

If the 100 million dead come up I normally defend with what source did you get that from and then retort with the stat below.
According to UNICEF, 26,500-30,000 children die each day due to poverty. 10 years and capitalism would have killed 100 million children..... Then explain the mass poverty.

But these debates are never easy as they are often started by people who have no interest in learning any thing about poverty or imperialist history and call it BS propaganda... Best not to debate them really...



Yeah.

Like I said, being armed with a knowledge of the brutal history of imperialism (which has virtually always been driven by either state intervention to help private economic interests, anticommunism, or both) is extremely useful.

What I usually use it for is to simply force the other person to take a more nuanced view of things. Is every person ever killed by America a "capitalist death"? No, not really. But if you maintain that not every death by a capitalist country is a death attributable to capitalism, then you cannot consistently hold that every person ever killed in/by a so-called Communist country is a death attributable to socialism/communism.

Basically, it just gets all the historical nonsense off the table and clears the way for a straightforward discussion of comparative economic systemms and the injustice of a class-based economy.

And quite effectively, too, since many more people have been killed by capitalist-imperialist countries than so-called socialist/communist ones. See this book (http://www.amazon.com/Late-Victorian-Holocausts-Famines-Making/dp/1859843824/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1226891479&sr=1-1)for one shocking example that -- big surprise -- they don't teach you in school books.