The only crime of a communist state: - comments plz

[Unrelenting Steve]

The only crime of a communist state:
It would be necessary to close the border to stop a brain drain, because although a communist society is very utopian, greed is very powerful and would perhaps be more conducive to some that would not feel indebted and be supporting of a system that insured their education and well being (basically the persons hedonistic nature would be predominant in their physci). Although this might not be a great trend, it might be significant enough to bring a systems balance into disorder and death. I think of communism as not being filled with propaganda and control from the state, just everybody having the realization that any other economic system would be amoral. I find the only thing that gets in the way of this is the seemingly quiet harsh and totaleristic act of sealing a border, this however would not be necessary if the whole world was communist, so perhaps this is not a flaw in a single state communist system but another sin caused through the existance of capitalism.

I dont really know what im asking here, but please tell me if you think ive assessed the situation correctly or tell me where I have screwed up.



(Edited by Unrelenting Steve at 4:10 pm on June 8, 2003)

[Anonymous]

People leaving a communist state for "greener pastures" is just one component of why people would "jump the wall". How about freedom:

"The West Berlin side of the wall is covered with graffiti and drawings showing how residents feel about their divided city. One might say freedom of speech can look messy and out of control. Now look at the unmarked side of the wall, which faced East Berlin. East Berliners were not allowed near the wall, for fear that they might escape. They certainly could not express their views on their side of the wall. "

http://www.newseum.org/cybernewseum/exhibi...in_wall/two.htm (http://www.newseum.org/cybernewseum/exhibits/berlin_wall/two.htm)



Ofcourse the economic component is very strong, especially when consumer products in a communist system are very scarce.

"The largest department store in Leningrad -- some two square city blocks wide and two stories high --was virtually empty. "
http://www.cato.org/special/berlinwall/crane1982.html

Why would you want to stop someone who is trying to control thier own destiny? Leaving a communist system to persue your destiny elsewhere? What is so wrong with that?

Forcing people to stay somewhere for the purpose of keeping thier labor is medieval serfdom. The Romanoffs in Russia got rid of it 1861. The Soviets brought it right back by building walls and using "bumagi" limit movement.

Freedom to control your own destiny was lacking in the old Soviet Union. It was lacking in China, but they are getting better.

[mentalbunny]

This is the reason why we need as worldwide revolution, one country cannot survive very well on its own, it's true. So we need the world to co-operate.

[Unrelenting Steve]

i believe communism is a correct and just form of government, that said it is obvious i would want to see it being put into practice. and because i think it wont work during another countrys enjoyment of capitalism doesnt mean we should abandon the whole matter, so i am making a moral cession to allow for good to prevail in the end, at least what im suggesting doesnt include "gross" human rights violation. I also am pretty sure communism can be run with freedom of speech ect. I dont see anything embued in communism to prevent the two from getting along.



(Edited by Unrelenting Steve at 5:04 pm on June 8, 2003)

[Sandanista]

Agreed Bunny, however i do believe that the revolution has to kick off somewhere.

[Anonymous]

Quote: from mentalbunny on 5:45 pm on June 8, 2003
This is the reason why we need as worldwide revolution, one country cannot survive very well on its own, it's true. So we need the world to co-operate.


That then would be world wide serdom.

[Anonymous]

Quote: from Unrelenting Steve on 5:50 pm on June 8, 2003
i believe communism is a correct and just form of government, that said it is obvious i would want to see it being put into practice. and because i think it wont work during another countrys enjoyment of capitalism doesnt mean we should abandon the whole matter, so i am making a moral cession to allow for good to prevail in the end, at least what im suggesting doesnt include "gross" human rights violation. I also am pretty sure communism can be run with freedom of speech ect. I dont see anything embued in communism to prevent the two from getting along.

(Edited by Unrelenting Steve at 5:04 pm on June 8, 2003)


You pose an interesting intellectual construct. I simply have to point to history in what is the real world application of communism. The theory and the application are two different things. So far history has shown freedom and communism not "getting along".

[Unrelenting Steve]

what does serdom mean? My dictionary doesnt have it.

[Anonymous]

Here is a primer:

http://www.ku.edu/kansas/medieval/108/lect...es/serfdom.html (http://www.ku.edu/kansas/medieval/108/lectures/serfdom.html)

Or my short version:

Serfs are freemen, but they are legally or economically bound to land. When land owners or nobility sell land, the serfs are also transfered allong with the land. Serfs can not simply move away or walk away.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Kelvin, it will not be 'serfdom', becasue the revolution will be carried out by the people. If the people don't want it, then it won't happen. If the people want it, why would they leave?

[Unrelenting Steve]

I have always heard of communsit propaganda, but I have never truely see it. Where is it, and are we sure its propganda and not just the highlights of what communism offers. Facism and capitalism needs brain washing because its just so ammoral, thats obvious and self evident, but even if some communist states have endulged in propaganda and hermerage of free speech/press, it really isnt needed. all thats needed is "everybody having the realization that any other economic system would be amoral".

And screw what hisory says about communism, I can tell you all about what capitalism does in the in the today

(Edited by Unrelenting Steve at 5:43 pm on June 8, 2003)

[Anonymous]

Your getting off your own thread. We were talking about limiting the movement of people out of communist states. Preventing "brain drain".

[Anonymous]

Quote: from Victorcommie on 6:34 pm on June 8, 2003
Kelvin, it will not be 'serfdom', becasue the revolution will be carried out by the people. If the people don't want it, then it won't happen. If the people want it, why would they leave?




I stand corrected.

Premise: everyone wants world wide wants communism, thus no one wants to leave.

Granted.

Then there are communist who think:

"The workers will not unite. Why? Because they do not care. Andy why should they? It's much easire to tell the homeless man "fuck off, go get a job" than it is to make homlessness and hunger obsolete. The answer is clear. give the workers no option force their hand so to speak." - RAF

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...c=2438&start=10 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=2438&start=10)

[Unrelenting Steve]

Theres nothing wrong with killing two incorrect assesments with one thread.

So you think communism=surfdom??? read redstars thoughts on what communism should(/might) produce; http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...m=22&topic=2460 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=2460)

which is ten times better than what cappitalism does produce and is ok with.

[Unrelenting Steve]

plz read my post, however simplistic it is it illistrates why people cant always get a job: http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...m=22&topic=2405 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=2405)

I dont fully understand your exchange with victorcommie, so if im off mark then just ignore this post.

[Anonymous]

Quote: from Unrelenting Steve on 6:55 pm on June 8, 2003
Theres nothing wrong with killing two incorrect assesments with one thread.

So you think communism=surfdom??? read redstars thoughts on what communism should(/might) produce; http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...m=22&topic=2460 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=2460)

which is ten times better than what cappitalism does produce and is ok with.


Communism = Serdom. Yes

Again I only have to point to history.

Communism = Serdom. Maybe not in the future.

Lets count the communist states in he last 100 years.

Soviets
North Koreans
Poland
East Germany
Cambodia
Cuba
China

All of them human rights violators or with closed borders or both. I am sure I missed a few. Can you add to the list? When we are done counting well do the math together. What are the chances that the next communist state will have closed borders.

[Anonymous]

Quote: from Unrelenting Steve on 7:02 pm on June 8, 2003
plz read my post, however simplistic it is it illistrates why people cant always get a job: http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...m=22&topic=2405 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=2405)

I dont fully understand your exchange with victorcommie, so if im off mark then just ignore this post.


I quickly scaned the thread. When I think of wealthy people in the USA I see workaholics.

Bill Gates
Trump
Wal-Marties

All of them workaholics. Yes there is idle rich, I don't know their names nor do I care to.

[Unrelenting Steve]

Lets not count up evils done by who, because capitalism always looses, and if my communist state has closed borders, at least it isnt the cause of millions of starving africans. And this would eventual be rectified when/if the world becomes communist. And as I have said before this is of no fault of communism other than it occupying the same time frame that capitalism exists in.


(Edited by Unrelenting Steve at 6:38 pm on June 8, 2003)

[Unrelenting Steve]

That link was provided so you could have a contradiction to communism=serdom.

and another thing to add to my argument, is it that wrong to limit a persons "universe" to inside a state who supported him, in the same way space is denied to us by out technological undevelopment (realitivley). then cannot also people be denied the luxery of freedom to where they where not supported (and it be wrong and grossley extravagent to let them venture where they have no natural allouance being). I havent thought of any flaws in that argument, but i only just came up with it, it will be interesting to see what flaws you can find with it.

(Edited by Unrelenting Steve at 6:33 pm on June 8, 2003)

[Anonymous]

Quote: from Unrelenting Steve on 7:29 pm on June 8, 2003
That link was provided so you could have a contradiction to communism=serdom.

and another thing to add to my argument, is it that wrong to limit a persons "universe" to inside a state who supported him, in the same way space is denied to us by out technological undevelopment (realitivley). then cannot also people be denied the luxery of freedom to where they where not supported (and it be wrong and grossley extravagent to let them venture where they have no natural allouance being). I havent thought of any flaws in that argument, but i only just came up with it, it will be interesting to see what flaws you can find with it.

(Edited by Unrelenting Steve at 6:33 pm on June 8, 2003)


Then we agree that there should be no walls. There should be no restriction in movement.

[Unrelenting Steve]

yes it is wrong, but its justified because the world is not a place with universal governance.

[Anonymous]

It is wrong period. In the USA I can leave any time I please. All I need to do is pay a one time processing fee for a passport and permission to enter at my forgein destination.

Your justification is economic not moral. You wish to confine people within borders for economic reasons not moral reasons, serdom. Confine people to prevent a "brain drain" that communist systems can not afford. Those are economic reasons, serfdom.

[Vinny Rafarino]

I'm simply touched that you quoted me Kelvin90210.

I'm also sure that Steve understands that their are communists that fall farther to the left than others. Compare it to the difference between you and Rush limbaugh. I believe the majority of your posts are inane however you are definitely closer to the middle than Limbaugh is 'cos I'm very certain that when no one is home Rush dust's off his old Klan uniform and wanks off in front of a mirror fantasizing about human ovens.

Everyone already knows I'm very far to the left, so I doubt you're going to shock anyone here by quoting me.
Lest you forget son, I don't give out cookies and milk to subversionists.

I also agree with Steve that yes, it is necessary to limit travel to friendly countries only, as Capitalists feel it's their mission in life to try to convert socialists into pigs. (much like the church)

They take every opportunity to plant their putrid seed everywhere they can in hopes that the rotten tendrils of capitalism will eventually choke the life and the freedom from our comrades. You capitalists are simply dealers of dispair and misery, so if closing the borders to your backwards capitalist societies keeps your filthy hands
out of our pockets, then it's absolutely necessary.

-jules

[kylie]

People leaving a communist state for "greener pastures" is just one component of why people would "jump the wall".
For there to be communist there must be no capitalist states left, so where is it these people would leave to?

Freedom to control your own destiny was lacking in the old Soviet Union. It was lacking in China, but they are getting better.
The freedom which was taken was the freedom to exploit others, and the ability to go back to capitalism(counter-revolution), where this exploitation would not be fought of at all. On the contrary, it would be encouraged.

The Berlin wall was as much to do with preventing capitalists entering, as it was for preventing others leaving. But this was all after Lenin had died, and in my opinion, with the rise of Stalin the revolution and move towards socialism ended, so the criticisms you have used are not relevent to communism or socialism.

but even if some communist states have endulged in propaganda and hermerage of free speech/press, it really isnt needed
Under socialism one of the reasons for it is to get people used to not being under capitalism, to help them out of their old way of thinking. This makes it neccessary to produce a lot of properganda, to speed the process up, and make sure all realise the flaws of capitalism.
If a certain section of the press is encouraging the overthrow of the dictatorship, and the re-instating of capitalist rule, they need to be stopped. No freedom is created by allowing them to continue, only reduced freedom, as counter-revolution is more likely.

Then we agree that there should be no walls. There should be no restriction in movement.
Yes there should be. If the population of a post-revolution, or socialist country or leaving in large numbers, i assume due to misconceptions about the country, and the country they are leaving to, them it is neccessary to stop them, not only in the interest of socialism, but in the individuals interest too.

. In the USA I can leave any time I please
Assuming you have the money to travel, are not wanted by the police, and a passport. The ability to move from country to country is very biased towards the bourgeoisie.




(Edited by feoric at 12:42 pm on June 9, 2003)

[notyetacommie]

You COULD leave the USSR, kelvin, if:
1. You were a Jew or were married to a Jew.
2. You were a talented performer and asked for a political asylum (ever heard of Rudolf Nuriev?).
3. You were going to a friendly country- such as Bulgaria, Romania, Poland, Yugoslavia, Hungary, Czeckoslovakia, Cuba, Mongolia, North Korea, Vietnam.

What did capitalism do to all these countries? There are FAR MORE BORDERS NOW- starting with the 15 different republics of the USSR, going on to Czeckia and Slovakia, and to Yugoslavia. What right have you to talk about the freedom of movement when your country assisted A LOT in creating all these borders?