a discussion on anti-fascism itself

[Holden Caulfield]

split from BPP thread


The NF had their rememberance day march day as well there is a Youtube vid of it somewhere.

They got 200 people to that.

Perhaps it is time to start looking at the NF again? The BPP is not really worth the while, protesting against them just justifies their existance and makes them feel important.

the NF rememberance day marche is their annual event of all events, and the 80 or so (i herd it was 80 but i could be wrong) that turned up is well down on what it used to be. The NF held a National March in London a while back and all 17 were made to "march" on the pavement. They lack, unlike the BPP who seem good at doing things badly, to do anything at all, on a recent Anti-Rascism march in Newcastle the NF turned up which was a suprise but their demo was caught between trying to be big and scary as they do, and trying to be civil like the BNP, and they failed on both counts, only to shuffle off after about a hour to go and watch the football.

Sam B was right the major threat to the British Working Classes atm are the BNP and in the near future i will try to get some more discussion going on these set of bastards.

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The BFF (British Freedom Fighters) and the RVF (Racial Voulenteer Force) are groups which are even more pathetic than the BPP, they exist in shitty Pubs where toy-town storm troopers talk up ther actions and dream about what schemes to do next, then go home and ***** about each other on Stormfront. "Wigan Mike" posted on an internet forum that he had gathered intelligence from the "HQ" of Leeds Antifa, whereas in reality he had pulled a leaflet off the door of a cafe which was A) given out on the streets to members of the public and B) available on the website to print off from a PDF file. He could have saved himself on the train fair had he any sense, but i suppose anybody who wears an "anti-antifa" t-shirt has got to be pretty fucking dense.

[Junius]

So, one on hand you are making claims that the working class is 'drifting to fascist parties in noticeable numbers' and 'swelling their ranks' yet when it comes to reality, the 'fascist' parties are actually...small. So, are they a big threat or not?

[Holden Caulfield]

So, one on hand you are making claims that the working class is 'drifting to fascist parties in noticeable numbers' and 'swelling their ranks' yet when it comes to reality, the 'fascist' parties are actually...small. So, are they a big threat or not?
what i am saying is that the BPP although they should be stopped are not much of a danger to society short of maybe attacking a few minorities, where as the NF are slightly more of a danger, but they are receding and have lost alot of ideological identity with the rise of other parties.

And as Sam B correctly pointed out, it is the BNP that pose a major and real threat to the unity of the British Working Classes, they have good organisation, an (opportunist and veiled fascist, yet seemingly effective) party ideology, and they have 'prestige' if you will call it that, as they have members on councils, something that the Union of Fascist, and the NF never managed to achieve.

anymore inane questions?

[Junius]

HC
And as Sam B correctly pointed out, it is the BNP that pose a major and real threat to the unity of the British Working Classes
Wikipedia
In the 2005 UK general election (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election,_2005), the BNP received 0.7% of the popular vote, giving it the eighth largest share of the vote, although it was fifth overall among English seats. In the 2007 Welsh Assembly Election (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Assembly_Election_2007), it came fifth in terms of votes for the regional lists with 4.3% of the vote, winning no seats, also finishing fifth in the 2008 London mayoral election (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_mayoral_election,_2008) with 5.23% of the popular vote, as well as electing Mayoral candidate Richard Barnbrook (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Barnbrook) to the Greater London Assembly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_London_Assembly).This doesn't sound like a 'major and real' threat to the working class; more like a fringe group. This hasn't prevented various anti-fascist groups from supporting the vote for Labour, however.


Fascist Threat? (http://www.ukwatch.net/article/fascist_threat%3F)
The anti-fascist group and magazine Searchlight persuaded Labour MPs from constituencies targeted by the BNP to form “Labour Friends of Searchlight,” and there was a drive to build on the ideas of Labour Chancellor Gordon Brown for reclaiming the national flag, the Union Jack, from the fascists and portraying Labour as the true patriotic party.

The Rowntree Trust reports, which were published in the run-up to the May 4 election, stated that 18 percent of the population nationally and 24 percent in London “would consider” voting for the BNP. At the time of their publication, Barking MP and Employment Minister Margaret Hodge announced in the right-wing Sunday Telegraph that as many as 8 out of 10 people she had spoken to in her east London constituency were “tempted” to vote for the BNP. Cruddas also declared the BNP was on the “verge of a major political breakthrough” and threatened to become a mainstream party.

This became the basis for a campaign by the media and Labour politicians to blame the growth of racism and support for the BNP on the supposedly legitimate grievances of white workers aroused by illegal immigration and false asylum claims, together with welfare policies that supposedly discriminate against the “white working class” and the political correctness brought about by “multiculturalism.” The essential message was that the rise of the BNP could only be halted by adopting its policies.

In reality, despite the huge publicity it was given during the local election campaigns, the BNP remains a small, fringe organisation only able to field 350 candidates in the 4,400 wards that were up for election and winning just 20 new seats. I find it telling that an anti-fascist organization is set up and supported by Labour MPs. More votes for them, after all. For example, a man called Martin Salter, a Labour MP was a founding member of Labour Friends of Searchlight. He has also voted for various legislation which allows for suspects to be detained for 42 days without being charged with anything, voted for the introduction of National ID Cards. And of course, he is a member of an organization which invaded another country...


Fascist Threat? (http://www.ukwatch.net/article/fascist_threat%3F)
London Mayor Ken Livingstone’s Unite Against Fascism organisation, which is supported by Labour, the Tories and Liberal Democrats, the Trades Unions Congress and the Socialist Workers Party, also urged people to “turn out and vote for anyone but the BNP.”
In working class areas, this was little more than an ultimatum to vote Labour. Its impact was to demobilise the vast majority of workers who are rightly hostile to Labour but have nothing but contempt for the BNP, leaving only the minority of more politically backward workers with the possibility of registering a protest vote for the far right.
Fascist Threat? (http://www.ukwatch.net/article/fascist_threat%3F)
The real role of the BNP is as a stalking horse for the introduction of anti-immigrant and anti-democratic measures by the official parties. This is indicated by the statements of Ann Cryer, Labour MP for Keighley, West Yorkshire, where the BNP has also been active. Initially, Cryer had described Hodge’s comments as “very misguided” and a morale booster for the BNP. But after the election, she claimed that BNP voters “have genuine grievances and frustrations.” Asian gangs “are corrupting our society, flouting our laws and give ammunition to extremist organisations like the BNP,” Cryer said, and were seen by some people to be “getting away” with it.Funny how the strongest advocates against the BNP turn out to be nothing but racists themselves. Unsurprising.


HC
they have members on councils, something that the Union of Fascist, and the NF never managed to achieve.I don't think it makes a difference when they gain several seats on some council (I'm not sure how the UK system of government is organized, but I would imagine a council seat is a local-government seat, and hence has little power - especially when they form a minority). Further, when right-wingers enter parliament they normally just...act like any other member of parliament - vote for this or that war, attack working conditions, attack immigrants and so forth. This isn't particular to 'fascists' it is particular to social-democrats.

[Holden Caulfield]

if you had any idea about what you are talking about you would know that Antifa UK says in its Founding Statement that we catagorically WILL NOT work with or share information with Seachlight or anyother state run or affiliated organisations. The Founding Statement says that we do not advocate voting for Bourgeois parties or even lobbying them for our own means, as they are the cause, fascism is often the product. You also bring in another example of the UAF and show how a great movement (in concept) was ruined by Popular Frontism, and opportunism, i dont support them either but you dont seem to care about such matters.

Its like saying your a Communist, dont you know how bad Stalin is, and you seem intelligent, dont drag yourself down to that level.

I think it makes a differance when the disillusioned workers are being steadily collected by fascist parties instead of moveing towards socialism. In my home town the BNP got 20% of the popular vote in local elections, and soon Nick Griffin will most likely be elected to the European Parliment, yet i do not see such sucesses from the left, therefore we must stop the fascists from dividing, weakening and manipulating our class, while we fight the bourgeois governments as well, these to things go hand in hand.

[Junius]

HC
if you had any idea about what you are talking about you would know that Antifa UK says in its Founding Statement that we catagorically WILL NOT work with or share information with Seachlight or anyother state run or affiliated organisations.

Did I say anything about Antifa...?


HC
The Founding Statement says that we do not advocate voting for Bourgeois parties or even lobbying them for our own means, as they are the cause, fascism is often the product...

Do you think it is possible to separate strong attacks on the BNP from indirect support for social-democrat parties? I don't think that is possible, because I think the parties are not substantially different - especially when in power. Ask Devrim and Leo about the fascists in the Turkish parliament. To myself, it is rather like a (socialist) group being set up solely to campaign against the Republicans. Whether you like it or not, that leads to indirect support for Democrats. And I'm sure social-democrats would love to see the BNP 'defeated.'


HC
In my home town the BNP got 20% of the popular vote in local elections, and soon Nick Griffin will most likely be elected to the European Parliment, yet i do not see such sucesses from the left,

I don't think it should be a communist goal to be elected to the European Parliament or local councils. Obviously you do, so when 'fascists' are elected to them you see it as some sort of 'defeat.' To myself, it is just another bourgeoisie election.


HC
therefore we must stop the fascists from dividing, weakening and manipulating our class, while we fight the bourgeois governments as well, these to things go hand in hand.

I think the bourgeoisie are manipulating our class - by giving you the 'choice' between a far right party and a right party, between a false dichotomy of 'fascism' and 'democracy.' The fact that you buy into this rhetoric is funny.

[Holden Caulfield]

Did I say anything about Antifa...?
Did i say anything about UAF? did i say anything about Searchlight?

i am defending my concept of antifascism, which is roughly the same as Antifa UK's i cannot defend anybody else's, if you want somebody to defend UAF ask Sam B or another SWPer, and good luck trying to find somebody to defend Searchlight.


Do you think it is possible to separate strong attacks on the BNP from indirect support for social-democrat parties?yes obviously. This is typical of Left Communists, criticise everything and do nothing, surely attacking the democracts and republicans plays into the hands on Nader who is still a capitalist. This is your logic, and it is nonesense. I think that antifascism is a movement, not a party or a pressure group. Its sole purpose is to combat fascism, fascism being a threat to working class cohesion and the class struggle itself. To combat bourgeois government i am a member of the Socialist Party and have worked wit (some) trade unions. But then again the Left Communists will think i am a 'social-democrat- myself and that unions cannot be used. You have no positive actions, you all might as well go live in a commune somewhere and wait for the rest of the ever so ignorant working classes to reach the lofty heights you inhabit.



I don't think it should be a communist goal to be elected to the European Parliament or local councils. Obviously you do, so when 'fascists' are elected to them you see it as some sort of 'defeat.' To myself, it is just another bourgeoisie election.
i do not support the European Parliment for obvious reasons, neither to i support local or national bourgeois government. However if socialists can improve the lives of people through the tools of the enemy then i do not see it as a bad thing, all revolutionaries are reformists as we care about the living stadards of the opressed in society. Look at Militant in Liverpool, they were eventually screwed by the government but they provided affordable homes and got an extra 60 million quid of out Thatcher (in what was a U-turn for her).
If fascists gain any power they spread division and weaken the workers socialist movement, look at Italy for a prime example, large fascist grouping allowing bourgeois government to act how it wants.

i do not buy into 'their' rethoric, i am aware of the spectrum of capitalist governments and why the differnt types are utilized, it is exactly because of this i fight fascism as part of my politics as well as fighting bourgeois 'democracy', pricisely so thet cannot use both of their hands to strangle the workers movement as the historically have done.

[Junius]

Your post is nothing but a really big childish rant.

1. Left Communists are involved in positive actions. If you include positive actions as strikes and other worker's struggles. Yes we are critical of leftist approaches. Deal with it.

2. On the one hand we have the anti-fascism of the types of Searchlight and the anti-fascism of the type of antifa. One focuses on fighting fascism via elections, the other through beating people up. In either case, they don't serve any purpose in class struggle; one gives specific support to bourgeoisie governments. The other suits the inane macho fantasies of teenage boys. Capitalism will continuously use racism to divide workers, hence only struggle against capital is a real struggle against the use of ethnic tensions. The strongest area for real solidarity is the workplace because it unites workers in opposition to bosses, their real enemies, rather than campaigns against racism or campaigns for multiculturalism which divert attention from the real enemy. Campaigns against bogey-man fascists don't worry the ruling class. Struggles which hurt their capital do.

3. Your concept of fascism is flawed. It isn't something that is elected via parliament. It emerges after a collapse in class struggle. Democracy serves the ruling class perfectly in the UK. There is no threat of a fascist state emerging, despite what you say; there is simply no threat to the status quo, hence no use of fascism to protect it. Fascism is a form of capital, hence capital is the real enemy.

4. You see the bourgeoisie state as the struggle to protect the standards of the working class. We see the workplace as the area to defend the standards of the working class, and to lead an offensive of class struggle. The unions form the main defenders of the state since they have become a part of it and implicit in its survival. Hence, any worker's action must invariable come into conflict with the unions and not be deadlocked to it.

[Sam_b]

The BNP that pose a major and real threat to the unity of the British Working Classes, they have good organisation, an (opportunist and veiled fascist, yet seemingly effective) party ideology, and they have 'prestige' if you will call it that, as they have members on councils, something that the Union of Fascist, and the NF never managed to achieve.

To be blunt, i'm going to ignore the left-communists and their crazy ideas of ignoring fascism in this thread.

But Holden raises some important points. The BNP ove rthe past three or four years has gone on a revival and an image change to say the least. Yes, there still is a very big Nazi overt presence in there - but this wing is now in the minority. Under Nick Griffin, the party has been able successfully to engineer itself into what has been seen as a 'respectable' electoral force which more often than not actually downplays a lot of its racial issues. This is especially true of local candidates for the BNP who amass votes by campaigning on local issues, and they've been most effective doing this on housing.

They also play a role in being the 'other' party, an alternative to the mainstream parties which they label as corrupt. So yes, Holden is definitely on the ball when he calls them opportunist.

This is a new stage for British fascism, one that has turned away from overt fascist tactics because they have failed. The task for us now is to break the BNP and its ilk to show them up as what they really are - a party in the traditions of the Nazis and the BUF.

[Junius]

To be blunt, i'm going to ignore the left-communists and their crazy ideas of ignoring fascism in this thread.

A bit like you SWPers ignore the concept of class struggle.

[Sam_b]

A bit like you SWPers ignore the concept of class struggle.

Nice. Does that quote come in 'relevant' as well?

[Holden Caulfield]

i was gonna come back to this, but i think myself and Sam B have really adressed all of your 'points', and i cba going round in the circular argument again,

i think the majority of sane people will agree with me and Sam. but im more than willing to carry it on if you have an new points that arent personal attacks to bring to the discussion

[Junius]

i was gonna come back to this, but i think myself and Sam B have really adressed all of your 'points',

Not really. I am still waiting to see how fascism is a big threat in the UK when (1) the members of the organizations are small (2) they form a very small minority of those voted for (3) their policies aren't much different, in practice, to the likes of Labour.


HC
i think the majority of sane people will agree with me and Sam.

Appeal to majority (and a slur) :rolleyes:


but im more than willing to carry it on if you have an new points that arent personal attacks to bring to the discussion

Funny, coming from you:


HC
anymore inane questions?


HC
This is typical of Left Communists, criticise everything and do nothing


HC
You have no positive actions, you all might as well go live in a commune somewhere and wait for the rest of the ever so ignorant working classes to reach the lofty heights you inhabit.

My 'personal attack' on the SWPer wasn't personal. The SWP and class politics don't go hand in hand.

[Holden Caulfield]

Not really. I am still waiting to see how fascism is a big threat in the UK when (1) the members of the organizations are small (2) they form a very small minority of those voted for (3) their policies aren't much different, in practice, to the likes of Labour.
look at Italy... Look at the UK in the 70's large right wing support was a tool for the convervative bourgeois parties to use to smash the workers movements, both unions and political parties. Fascism as a tool of the bourgeois weakens, divides and helps the bourgeois opress the working classes, as part of fighting the opressors we must also fight their tools.

I (perhaps Sam does as well) think Left Communism and reality don't go hand in hand. Its not a personal attack.

[Junius]

look at Italy... Look at the UK in the 70's large right wing support was a tool for the convervative bourgeois parties to use to smash the workers movements, both unions and political parties.

And look at anti-fascism in WW2, when it was used to smash workers' movements also!

Even so, UK today isn't Italy in the 70s (which I have no history of anyway).


I (perhaps Sam does as well) think Left Communism and reality don't go hand in hand. Its not a personal attack.

This would be a fair criticism if you gave an actual argument; but all you say is that Left Communists sit above in ivory towers criticizing everyone and doing nothing. No. Whether you like or not, we are workers and we are part of workers movements. Actually criticizing something that the tendency holds is perfectly fine. Setting up silly a strawman with which you hope to burn isn't.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

I think the think about fascism is that although short of something akin to the enabling act or whatever its very unlikely to come into power (in britain at least) although it certainly does have a negative impact on working class culture
by encouraging racism sexism etc. Although the media already does this the fascist groups actions get people involved in shit.

And your going to be in support of reaction if your involved in it rather then if you about it on the bus.

[Sasha]

something that everybody seem to forget to mention is that antifawork is selfprotection.
Long before the fasict are in any way a serious threat to take over power, they will be blowing up union members and leftist journalists (like it happend in sweden and germany), killing leftists/punks at concerts (russia but also recently in holland) or just stabing them on the subway (the 16 year old kid in spain) murdering imigrants, LBGT's and anyone they disaprove of.
They percieve themselfs to be in a war with us and we are on the frontline of their assaults, and then you better fight back
so IMO this whole anti-fascism is bourgiose and anti-revolutionary discussion is a. rediculous and quite discusting and b. arm chair keyboardwarrior ivory tower pretentious crap.

i went yesterday to a ska/skinhead-reggea show and the fact i could finaly go to take a piss without fear of being beaten in to hospital by nazi's is mostly made possible thanx to antifa-work in amsterdam, that makes it worth it for me.
and yes, if you dont have any reason to fight (back at) fascism there is a small change you just have been lucky so far but i would say the change is a lot bigger that you sit comfertly in an ivory tower of white (midle class) privelidge.