Fascism or Communim - What would you choose?

[Loknar]

If you had a choice to live under either of the 2 which one would you choose? I think I would choose Fascism due to the security. Communism to me just has too much a history of purges and famine.

[Pete]

And obviously you know niether system by the content of your post.

Communism, of course, I would select.

[Loknar]

What did I say that was wrong?

[Felicia]

hehehe..... everytihng was wrong :biggrin:

A communist utopia would be musch preferable to a fascist system...... granted, that utopia will never exist....... you wouldn't happen to remember a historical figure by the name of hitler do you? THAT was a fascist system......

[Loknar]

But Communism while a good idea on paper doesnt work to well. Fascism I also hate but I dont remember people in Italy or Germany starving, I do remember this in China and Russia.

Hitler was a racist though. But if you want to examine his regime he did give people jobs.

[Cassius Clay]

Fascism is Capitalism. So the choice should be 'Capitalism' and 'Socialism' since 'Communism' was never established. If your a Capitalist then sure you'll probably want to live under 'Fascism' just like the Capitalists put Hitler into power, Pinochet into power, Pol Pot into power and generally every guy who wasn't nice into power. Now I'm not sure what 'famines' your talking about. Could it be the Famine in America in 1932 when it was only the USSR who offered aid to help? Oh you probably mean the 'famine' which the Nazi press said was going on in the 'Ukraine' while every single journalist who was there said there was no famine in fact the complete opposite. Could you be talking about the Irish Potato famine when Queen Victoria thought it better to donate twice the amount of money to a dogs home (a sum of 10 pounds) than to the help the victims (five pounds)? Or how about the famines which plague Africa every year? Capitalism wins hands down in 'Famines'. And if your really picky let's look at 'Fascism' Jews starving in ghetto's so German manufactoring companys and arms manufactorers can make a quick buck. Yes indeed let's talk about 'Purges'. As far as I know no one ever sent the FBI to shoot 17 year old kids because of there colour in any 'Communist' country. Ever heard of McCarthy?

[Loknar]

Look at Mao's great leap foreward, possible the greatest man made famine in history. I am speaking of Famine caused by mis-management.

There was a famine in the Ukraine, I know someone who lived there at the time and I've read allot about genocide , mass murder, and man made famine. From what I've read I dont see any reason to doubt it, if you have some info I would like to see it.

In terms of famine Communism wins by a long shot in terms of total number dead. Last century over 90 Million people does under Communist regimes.

(Edited by Loknar at 8:41 pm on June 4, 2003)

[Loknar]

AH yes the purges, Stalin had 3 to 7 million people purged. Mao did it but to a lesser extent.

[Loknar]

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm

[Bianconero]

"Fascism is Capitalism."

I think that you are somehow right. Millions of people die in fascism just as they die in what we know as "capitalism". But then, I don't know how people in "capitalism" are murdered because of the fact they are jewish (whatever ...) in gas - chambers. After all, the nationalsocialist fight against jews was lead, so most Nationalsocialists believed, because of their race. Of course, they too wanted to get money out of it, but racism was the most important factor for them, no?

People are of course killed too in capitalism, but there's still this slight difference of gas - chambering someone and, on the other hand, exploiting the working class or, as we see it today, the so - called "third" world.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Umoja]

Loknar, even considering these so called "Communist" countries failing, they didn't export misery like Facism. Hitler was responsible for more deaths (but lets not argue numbers), but they were mostly outside of the country.

[Ghost Writer]

Since I see no real difference between the two, I would choose to fight to the death, if given the choice of facism or communism.

[Bianconero]

"Since I see no real difference between the two, I would choose to fight to the death, if given the choice of facism or communism."

That would definitly be the smartest thing to do.

[Felicia]

Quote: from Loknar on 4:33 pm on June 4, 2003
But Communism while a good idea on paper doesnt work to well. Fascism I also hate but I dont remember people in Italy or Germany starving, I do remember this in China and Russia.

Hitler was a racist though. But if you want to examine his regime he did give people jobs.

oh, that's right, hitler didn't starve anyone..... just 6 million jews and then threw their frail boddies into mass graves......

loknar.... you're in for a real tough time on this board.....

[Ghost Writer]

I most definitely would. Why do you think so many people died in the battlefields of Europe during WWII? Why do you think so many resisted the susequent Soviet Military expansion into Eastern Europe. They understood the choice, and decided their lives were worth the sacrifice. I suppoe someone like yourself would allow themselves to be enslaved. I have no desire for bondage, and would rather die.

[Bianconero]

So what would you fight for? Capitalism?

[Cassius Clay]

Bianconero.

The death camp system was not run by the need for some sought of Ideology dictating a master race. It was ran and able to keep running because it ensured a healthy profit for Capitalist manufactoring companys. Who put Hitler in power? The Capitalists.

Ghost Writer. Lets talk about who fought for what against whom in WW2. Lets look at Greece where thousands of Communists, Socialists and Democrats were massacred. In Italy the CIA and Pope threatened to declare a 'holy war' against anyone who even thought of voting for anything Socialist. In the Phillpines the ruling classes in the U$A planned on massacring thousands of Phillipine 'Commies' who had greatly aided the anti-Fascist (=Japanese Capitalism) struggle. Luckily the U$ workers who were in uniform refused to go along with their bosses plans and wanted no part of it.

Now look at the Socialist regimes in Eastern Europe. Albania liberated itself (only to be invaded again in the 50's gey what happened to having a 'choice'), in Poland two whole armies of Poles fought against the Fascists with the Red Army and the main resistance in Poland was Communist and based in Poland throughout the war and they got over 80% of the vote, in Czechslovakia the Communists got 38% of the vote, in Bulgaria the leader of the Comintern Georgie Dmitrov was elected.

Loknar. Where to begin. The U$A has three million more people in prison as of 1998 than the USSR ever did and your just as likely to die in todays U$ prisons than you were in the USSR's in the 40's. Given the advances in medicine since then this speaks volumes for the USSR's prison system and sadly rubbishes the U$'s system. You 'know someone' so do I and plenty of comrades from the Ukraine who speak to people who grew up then. There was no 'famine'. As for the PRC, the Great Leap Forward was ultra-leftism not helped by a bad drought and harvest and the withdrawal of Soviet advisers and technology. Still there's plenty of famines in China throughout it's history which were far worse. And it was because of a Socialist system that the population was able to grow from 400 million to over a Billion. Once again Capitalism loses.

'90 Million' sorry this is rubbish even if I accept what is a Nazi lie that there was a 'famine' in the Ukraine and accept the highest estimates of the GLF. How many die every year in Africa, because the IMF forces governments to slash wages and increase taxes on the poor? There were famines in America in the twentieth century, in India. Now sometimes circumstances and natural diasters play there part and neither 'Capitalism' or 'Socialism' is responsible.

But lets talk about 'famine' and 'hunger terror' under Capitalism. Look no further than Russia today where 11 million have died as a direct result of Capitalism.

[Bianconero]

"capitalist manufactoring companys"

How exactly did they take profit from gas - chambering jews? Of course, they took the jew's money, their houses, shops, whatever, but how did they take profit from actually murdering the whole "race"?

Concerning the war as such it is quite clear. Companies produced weapons etc.

But concerning the gas - chamber thing I don't know where they should take profit from. Building these chambers? Building the ovens or what? I fail to see how building some ovens for Hitler was such a great deal for them.

[James]

Fascism I also hate but I dont remember people in Italy or Germany starving, I do remember this in China and Russia.


LMFAO!

This guy does this alot... makes up history etc.

[Loknar]

James

How have I made up history? You are making such claime then by all means explain.

[Loknar]

felicia

I wasnt taking the holocaust victims into account.

[Loknar]

Cassius Clay

I would like you to take a look at this site

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#Stalin

[Nick Yves]

Loknar, go find out what communism really is and what it really hopes to achieve. Your saying you would rather live in an oppressive brutal country, rather than one where no one is being exploited by the upper class, and the working class rules?

You are a fool, to put it simply. Seriously. Go read a book.

[Loknar]

I know what Communism is, and I like the idea. but it never seems to work, this is why I fear communism more than fascism.

[IHP]

As you obviously don't understand either, I suggest you obstain from making any decisions about what you'd prefer.

--IHP

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Gimme my Communist utopia you damn dirty apes!

[Cassius Clay]

''The Holocaust casts a long shadow. This human calamity continues to exert an impact on the lives of individuals as well as groups of people. Issues surrounding enormous losses have raised questions concerning the liability of the perpetrators. Clearly, the need to settle debts for all that was stolen and lost is an issue that has become a major concern today. Still, one must never lose sight of the fact that Jewish -- and other -- victims of Nazi persecution can never be truly compensated for what they endured.

Many of the articles in this issue (and past issues) of Dimensions deal with the moral responsibility of those who facilitated the machinery of mass murder. Within the realm of perpetrators, the SS did not stand alone: German industry and business also helped make the Holocaust a reality.

Systematic mass murder was, on one level, a highly complicated and profitable corporate venture. The individuals who worked for the businesses that sustained the Holocaust were not uniformed thugs or hoodlums; they were highly trained, efficient and professional people. Our articles look at what German businessmen did 50 and 60 years ago and what a new generation of business leaders is doing now to confront their companies' histories. After decades of attempting to deflect attention from corporate complicity with the Nazi government and the SS, German companies are finally beginning to acknowledge past misconduct. Some businesses have even taken it upon themselves to hire scholars to investigate their prewar and wartime history.

Many of the facts that are now being disclosed are shocking. For example, of the 35,000 slave laborers who worked for I.G. Farben (pharmaceuticals and chemicals) at Auschwitz, over 25,000 died there. The life expectancy of the average slave laborer was estimated to be three-and-a-half months.

Although many leaders of German industry and business supported Nazi racial and military policies, their behavior during the Nazi era was largely governed by greed and opportunism. After the war, a number of German industrialists became defendants in court when the Allies prosecuted them for such crimes as exploiting forced and slave labor, the expropriation of Jewish property, and financially supporting the SS. A number of the defendants were convicted of various charges, but in 1951 those still in prison were released, and many reentered the German corporate world.

In recent years, class action lawsuits seeking monetary damages have been filed by former forced and slave laborers against the companies that abused them during the war. Forced laborers included hundreds of thousands of Slavs and Poles who were compelled to work for German companies under deplorable conditions. Slave laborers, who were mostly Jews, were brutally abused in concentration and death camps.''

There you go Bianconero. I provided a list of the names of companies who profited from the camps a few months ago in this forum. If you search the archive you should find it.

Loknar. I looked at the site and would you like to tell me why I should take that stuff seriesly? I've responded to claims like that a million times before and I'm not going to do it again. Even Conquest admited in the 'Great Terror a reasessment' that most of his work and findings was based on emigre's in North America after the war and their accounts. I'm sure your not a Nazi so why do you belief what are Nazi sources?

[Sandanista]

Actually, socialism has never been implemented, the famines in the Ukraine were caused by stalintryin to drive the Ukranians out, the Communist Utopia (reality) can and will happen

[Felicia]

Quote: from Loknar on 11:09 pm on June 4, 2003
felicia

I wasnt taking the holocaust victims into account.

well you can't just leave out important parts of history because they don't corespond to the way you're thinking :)

[Loknar]

Cassius Clay

Didnt you see all the different sources used?


felicia

Well, look at Italy then.

[Cassius Clay]

Yes I did and that's why it can be dismissed. Robert Conquest, Alexander Soljenistyn, Robert Service. Is there any evidence what so ever for 20, 30, or 50 million people being murdered by 'Communism'? The West tried their best to blame Katryn on the 'Evil Stalin' and that was just a few thousands bodies and all the time it turns out it was the Nazis. Is there any data available from the archives which back up that website, no since they were all written during the Cold War and the archives weren't open till 1991. Is there any photoghaphic or film evidence?

Most of these accounts and books rely on exile accounts, not only are the vast majority of these exiles Nazi collobarators picked up by the CIA at the end of the war but they were paid to spread as much lies as possible. Alexander Zionoviev a former exile who has become a Soviet since returning to his homeland and seeing what Capitalism has done to his homeland (11 million dead and counting) now reveals the truth behind the 'dissident bussiness' in his words 'it was very profitable' and 'the more outrageous the claim the more they paid you and the more they hailed you as a genius'.

[Loknar]

Well Gorbechov admitted to 27 Million desths under Stalin. Will you take his word?

Read this

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat8.htm#TotalEst

Debunk the numbers then, show me some links.

[atlanticche]

this is an incredoubly dificult question to answer and it especially depends an who you are and what you do
to be under fascist youve got to be in some way apart of fascism no matter what you do you will still one day be a fascist under fascist rule
you can never survive as a capitalist or communist under fascist rule you could for a limited time though but you would be in prison a lot if you said anything anti-fascist
though under communist rule it would but of coourse be very different but no matter what youve always got to be perfect to the ideals of its leader as in a communist country there must always be a secret servise a like the KGB though if you became a part of the system you could get more protection from being arrested but you would have to be apart of a system and would eventually be warped you would no longer have your own true thoughts

i cant really say who i would prefer

[James]

"well you can't just leave out important parts of history because they don't corespond to the way you're thinking "

Thats what he's like though.

[Pete]

Quote: from Loknar on 12:54 pm on June 5, 2003
Well Gorbechov admitted to 27 Million desths under Stalin. Will you take his word?

Read this

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat8.htm#TotalEst

Debunk the numbers then, show me some links.


Gorbachev eh? Regan's friend? The man who made the people of the CCCP so angry that they voted to dissolve it? And you expect us to take his word? If anything he should take our bullets.

[James]

Loknar; just avoid all history

[RedRevolutionary87]

Quote: from Loknar on 2:33 pm on June 4, 2003
But Communism while a good idea on paper doesnt work to well. Fascism I also hate but I dont remember people in Italy or Germany starving, I do remember this in China and Russia.

Hitler was a racist though. But if you want to examine his regime he did give people jobs.


hey i seem to recal a buddy of mine back in ww2 he was german his name was *insert stereotypical jewish name here* here is a pic of him http://www.hofesh.org.il/freeclass/history/holocaust.jpg

he sure doesnt look starved...no way...people never starve under fascism it just couldnt happen


you fucking idiot go and bury yourself somewhere and die....ugh

[the SovieT]

Hitler was a racist though. But if you want to examine his regime he did give people jobs.

pardon?

The ony "jobs" hitler gave to the german people was soldier...

FUCKING MURDER SOLDIER!

that or you would have the nice job of burning jew bodys... YAY!!!!

fucking ignorant...

[Loknar]

RedRevolutionary87

That was forced starvation. They didnt starve because there wasnt enough food they starved because of Hitlers racist policy's. So with that in mind, the Germans didnt have to worry about where their next meal came from. The usual russian at times did. In fact forced famine killed many as well.
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/USSR.CHAP.1.HTM

[RedRevolutionary87]

omfg....there wasnt enough food? most starvations in stalinist russia came from stalin being a dick to certain people...and people in germany infact did have to worry about their meals, and secondly stalinism isnt even communism its just fascism in discise, and the only other starvations were in pre stalinist russia, but thats because the country was fresh out of fucking revolution and was caught in a civil war and then later a western invasion....hey i got an idea...maybe communist countries have problems like this because capitalist dicks try to make it that way, and not because the "theory is flawed"

[Loknar]

What about Stalins 5 year plans?

Are you saying Stalins government wasnt a Communist government?

I can use the same logic with every government on this planet because every government isnt %100 based on the orgional form or what it was on paper.

(Edited by Loknar at 4:01 am on June 6, 2003)

[RedRevolutionary87]

yeah...well stalins was nowhere near communist....infact i could make an argument that the entire russian revolution was not a communist one since it happened in a country with a weak proleteriat that was ready for revolution both mentaly and economicly by firstly being a primarily agricultural, and secondly the revolution was sprouted from a monarchy, and was not led by the proleteriat but instead by the army and the farmers. stalins regime was very much not internationalist more imperial in the sense that instead of exporting the revolution he simply exported some t class tanks and took over...everything was done for the good of the state(begining to sound like fascism yet?) working conditions sucked...and he ruled through fear....so yeah...you couldnt make the same argument for any government in the world

[Nick Yves]

Loknar, you are fucking stupid.

No communists today support the ideals of Stalin. If one does, fellow comrades dont even acknowledge him as a communist. Thus, a stalinist. He wasnt left wing. He wasnt liberal. He ran the economy 'communistically', but he had no veiws of rule of the working class through the government. He was anti equality. Thats not communist.

[commie kg]

I just read a great book about the rise of Stalin in the CCCP. Problems in European History: The Stalin Revolution. It's a collection of articles by communists and capitalists alike, thouroughly explaining that Stalinism was NOT the logical course of Leninism, not even one of the primary paths.
But Leninism had it's problems too.

oh ,well, like Shakespeare said: "What is past is prologue."
We can only learn from history.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Jetgind. Your statement is ludicrous.

I am so tired of the same tired old rhetoric from you anti-Stalinists.

What really annoys my about all of you anti-Stalinists is you simply make another thread bashing Stalin once you lose a debate. My comrades and I consistantly win by providing facts over your fiction and when I ask for you to provide evidence...You simply open a new thread ands start over. Forcing me to transpose my posts to another thread. I despise having to do this. You people are so juvenile. All of you anti-Stalinists are like school on Saturday.....No class

[Loknar]

RedRevolutionary87

I appreciate what you are saying. There are some Stalinists around though.

jetgrind

How am I 'fucking stupid'?

COMRADE RAF

What are your views on Stalin? I am new here I just want to hear your thoughts.

[Kapitan Andrey]

I hate stalin, so I choose post-stalin socialism...

[James]

How am I 'fucking stupid'?


LMAO

[Cassius Clay]

Gorbachev, LOL. One of his collegues Yakolev said that he has seen the archives proving that '40 million' died 'at the hands of evil Stalin'. He's now asked in the street by working people who grew up at that time 'Haven't they put you in prison yet?'.

Oh yes and tthere was no 'famine' in the Ukraine or anywhere else. I for one am not going to believe the same people who said the 'Jewish-Bolshevik conspiracy is out to get us and harm Free Germany'. Especially when all the evidence is contray to what some in the west say. Collectivisation tripled the amount of food a peasant got to eat for cyring out loud. While in America and British ran India there were actually famines that same year.

As for Stalin not being a Communist. Obviously none of you have read any of his works and are all to willing to believe whatever CNN or the BBC tell you. I've had to argue against these lies enough times to be bothered to do it again.

Oh yeah and somebody said 'no one is a Stalinist'. Without us evil 'Stalinists' there would be no struggles going on today. From Ecaudor where the PCMLE are taking part in the fight agains tthe IMF, to Nepal and the Phillipines and the former USSR. Let us know when you Trots and Anarchists actually do anything.

[Vinny Rafarino]

COMRADE RAF

What are your views on Stalin? I am new here I just want to hear your thoughts.

Please review all of the other "stalinist" threads...It's simply too much information to place in one post.

Here we go again...I will now post a (again) a logical reason why Stalin could not have committed 40 million murders as you children always love to rant about. PLEASE READ IT!

this is LOGICAL proof Stalin's "mass murders" are right-wing propaganda. DO THE MATH COMRADES

One of the most maligned periods of history in the Soviet Union is the so-called Great Terror from 1935 to 1941. This period is also marked by the so-called Purge Trials of the mid-1930s. According to Anton Antonov-Ovseyenko(1), Stalin's "terror" in that period resulted in 19 million dead.

Of course, by this time, World War II was already on in Asia and Africa with Japan and Italy on the move. Stalin was preparing for World War II and historians argue whether Stalinism represented a general high level of repressiveness all the time or just "Great Terror" at some times. MIM does not discuss this here.

As it turns out, there is no need to discuss history with Antonov-Ovseyenko and many other critics of Stalin. No it is not necessary to discuss the deaths in Siberia fighting Japan or in Finland thanks to the war that was going on in those years. Academic sources show that Stalin's "Great Terror" couldn't have killed 19 million.

Fewer than 25 million died from all causes from 1935 to 1941. That's using concrete numbers for 1935 to 1941 and the highest number from that period to estimate 1941, which according to historians was well past the peak of the "Great Terror" anyway. (2)

So to arrive at 19 million deaths to blame on Stalin, there had to be fewer than 6 million deaths from normal causes between 1935 and 1941. Again to round off in our critics' favor, let's assume that to be 900,000 deaths a year for seven years as the deaths from normal causes. So for example, in 1936, that would mean a crude death rate from normal causes of less than 5 per 1000 a year, based on a population of 180.2 million people in the Soviet Union.

That's impossible and the death rate has never been that low in the Soviet Union, Stalin or no Stalin, not even in 1982, when the crude death rate was 10.1. (3) In fact, the crude death rate has never been below 5 per 1000 a year in U.S. history either. A more realistic death rate from natural causes would be around 20. It was 20.3 in 1926, which according to almost all historians, was before Stalin started his repression, since he had only just assumed leadership in 1924

Please.....try and disprove this.

[CubanFox]

Quote: from Loknar on 4:00 am on June 6, 2003
Are you saying Stalins government wasnt a Communist government?


Replace the word 'communist' with 'paranoid fascist totalitarian' and you're on track.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I just asked my mum, 'fascism or Communism' and she said communism because their is an element of co-operation involved.

[Loknar]

Well Stalin may have not been a Commie but like it or not he saved Russia from the Germans. But at the same time I find him in the same category with Pol Pot.

[CubanFox]

Both are murdering psychos who were anything but communist?

[Loknar]

No, by industralizeing the shit out of Russia (Tankograd alone produced more tanks in 1 day than the entire German warmachine) and useing the NKVD to shoot anyone who ran from the front. Like it or not these tactics worked.

[Pete]

The tatics worked. And every other army of the time had similar tatics in play. You retreat with out order you are a deserter you are shot. It makes sense.

Pol Pot and Stalin are opposites. Pol Pot tried to create and argicultural nation, killing all who resisted, and Stalin tried to advance a nation 100 years in 10 and saved, in directly, France, the low countries, Italy, ect ect from Nazi rule because of this.

[Loknar]

I think the Russians did it more seriously though. Even if they were going through a mine field they couldnt run (Zukov said to Esienhower that the best way to clear a mine field is to attack as if it isnt there).

Stalin had his paranoid side. In many ways he stop the Nazi's from building their 'thousand year Reich' so history does owe him credit for it but at the same time he was crazy.

[atlanticche]

Quote: from Loknar on 8:33 pm on June 4, 2003
Hitler was a racist though.

you cant exactly call Hitler a rascist he was an idealist who saw the only way to turn his ideas to reality was to do what he did or this is just bollocks

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Quote: from felicia on 8:25 pm on June 4, 2003
hehehe..... everytihng was wrong :biggrin:

A communist utopia would be musch preferable to a fascist system...... granted, that utopia will never exist....... you wouldn't happen to remember a historical figure by the name of hitler do you? THAT was a fascist system......


I'm new to this post and this may have been said before, but anyway...

Hitler's was NOT a Fascist regime. It was a Nazi regime. Thin line, MASSIVE difference.

Mussolini's (pre-1937) was a Fascist regime.

And whoever said "Facism is capitalism"....

I think it is best described, as Lenin put it, as "Fascism is capitalism in decay"

(Edited by Socialsmo o Muerte at 5:25 pm on June 6, 2003)

[James]

Loknar my friend, as stated Russia was 100 years behind Europe.

Do you know how the allied comanders made their soliders attack?

[Loknar]

Quote: from James on 11:37 pm on June 6, 2003
Loknar my friend, as stated Russia was 100 years behind Europe.

Do you know how the allied comanders made their soliders attack?

Hey I never said that the Russians were wrong for making their troops fight in the manner they used. The Greeks used Homosexuality (The sacred band), the Carthegenians at Zama were killing their younger, less experienced troops because they were trying to run, and the Russians used NKVD soliders to make their stand and fight under the most aphalling conditions.

[James]

Same shit happened everywhere.