There's GOT to be an Onion Headline In This Story

[Elway]

cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/11/national/main4591564.shtml?tag=topHome;topStories (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/11/national/main4591564.shtml?tag=topHome;topStories)

I have a friend who's LDS. There are plenty here in Colorado; we're next door to Utah.

Now, I have nothing but respect for the memory of people killed by Nazi Germany, but this story is SO dumb, on both ends.

What's wacky, is that if a Jew believes that a post-death ceremony CAN effect their loved one, that's the same as believing the other faith has power over the soul of those who, in life, were in your faith.

And all of that is saying, "You're right, about God and everything.

I realize it's a "respect" issue, but I also believe it's based on popularity. If 4 people got together, and did a "Pagan" ceremony "affecting" the souls of departed Jews, would the Jews angry in this case, be angry in the other? Of course not.

Religion is such horse shit!

[LordMortis]

Now, I have nothing but respect for the memory of people killed by Nazi Germany, but this story is SO dumb, on both ends.

How so? Mormons think they're doing something right, and Jews are pissed that the religion of the dead is being messed with.


What's wacky, is that if a Jew believes that a post-death ceremony CAN effect their loved one, that's the same as believing the other faith has power over the soul of those who, in life, were in your faith.

And all of that is saying, "You're right, about God and everything.

Uhhhh..... No. It's saying that the dead (with their immortal souls and their awareness of what's going on on earth) are kinda pissed at this. And the Mormons are showing no respect for their religion.


I realize it's a "respect" issue, but I also believe it's based on popularity. If 4 people got together, and did a "Pagan" ceremony "affecting" the souls of departed Jews, would the Jews angry in this case, be angry in the other? Of course not.How on earth do you come to that conclusion?


Religion is such horse shit!Lovely blanket statement, way to perpetuate the myth that the far left is completely intolerant of religion.

[Elway]

I wrote it in a clumsy manner, but here it is:

Removing the aspect of "respecting others", and I DO understand wha, Jews are getting at when they're upset at Mormons for doing what they're doing, here's my point:

If you believe that a person or persons can perform a rite, or even care they're doing it, where you are affected by it, you are somehow admitting the rite has importance.

If a man's father dies, and I make a voodoo doll as an effigy of that departed father, the man can get angry at me for doing such a rude act, BUT to believe it's affecting the dead father's soul, that's crazy.

Hope I said it better this time around.

[Random Precision]

I think it's pretty obvious why they're offended. The very reason those Holocaust victims died was their Jewish identity, and probably for most of them that included adherence to the Jewish religion. By "baptizing" these victims, the LDS seem to be negating a very important part of why the Holocaust was such a significant event in human history. It has nothing to do with believing that the Mormon rite actually affects the spiritual status of Holocaust victims. It has to do with not respecting the Holocaust as such a terrible event, and not respecting the people who died in it.

[Hit The North]

Those Mormons are wacko.

[ernie]

I think it's pretty obvious why they're offended. The very reason those Holocaust victims died was their Jewish identity, and probably for most of them that included adherence to the Jewish religion.
You're right. It is obvious. That doesn't mean it's not bullshit.


By "baptizing" these victims, the LDS seem to be negating a very important part of why the Holocaust was such a significant event in human history.
So the fact that most of the people that died in the Holocaust were adherents to Judaism is important? Not to me! 12 million people were killed by the Nazis, and their religion is the least important thing of all.


It has nothing to do with believing that the Mormon rite actually affects the spiritual status of Holocaust victims. It has to do with not respecting the Holocaust as such a terrible event, and not respecting the people who died in it.
How is what the CoLDS is doing disrespectful to the victims of the Holocaust? Their problem is that this organization wants the Holocaust to be remembered as an attack on Judaism (he said it in the article) and they're afraid that it will be associated with Mormonism, instead. Fuck all that! The Holocaust was an attack on humanity.

[Killfacer]

Its irrelevant how important it is to you. Its important how relevant it was to them.

[Random Precision]

So the fact that most of the people that died in the Holocaust were adherents to Judaism is important? Not to me! 12 million people were killed by the Nazis, and their religion is the least important thing of all.

It was important to the perpetrators of the Holocaust that their victims were Jewish. And I'm guessing the victims saw the cause of their suffering as somewhat important, even if they weren't religious.


How is what the CoLDS is doing disrespectful to the victims of the Holocaust? Their problem is that this organization wants the Holocaust to be remembered as an attack on Judaism (he said it in the article) and they're afraid that it will be associated with Mormonism, instead. Fuck all that! The Holocaust was an attack on humanity.

Cut the liberal bullshit. the Holocaust was an attack on Jews, along with other ethnic and religious minorities.

[ernie]

It was important to the perpetrators of the Holocaust that their victims were Jewish. And I'm guessing the victims saw the cause of their suffering as somewhat important, even if they weren't religious.
We shouldn't talk about the Jewish ethnicity and the Jewish religion as if they were the same thing. As far as I know, the Nazis were more about the race than the religion.


Cut the liberal bullshit. the Holocaust was an attack on Jews, along with other ethnic and religious minorities.
What about socialists and communists? Were those ethnic and religious minorities?

The only point I was making is that the Holocaust shouldn't be seen as an attack on religion. The Nazis sent all kinds of different people to the camps, and those who were Jewish (religion-wise) were no more special than the Muslim ones or the atheists.

[redguard2009]

So wait a minute...

Are you telling me that Mormons spend a large amount of time and effort baptizing (re: converting) dead people?

Well hell, the Jehovah's Witnesses need to learn about this. Think of all the trouble they could avoid by knocking on tombstones and preaching the word of God to graves?

[Plagueround]

So wait a minute...

Are you telling me that Mormons spend a large amount of time and effort baptizing (re: converting) dead people?


Not just baptizing them, but going through huge genealogy projects and then baptizing those people by "representing them" and physically baptizing themselves in that person's name. One of my exes used to do this...the whole thing is a bit unsettling.

[Demogorgon]

I can't believe people here sometimes. You honestly think it is silly to be offended by this? Think of the utter horror of the holocaust. n almost unparalleled act of cruelty and think of all the people subjected to it because of their religion.

Now a bunch of idiots are doing posthumous conversions, effectively saying that something about the religion of those who were murdered was wrong, that they should have belonged to a different religious group. They might as well throw pig's blood over a holocaust memorial.

[apathy maybe]

"We ask you to leave our six million Jews, all victims of the Holocaust, alone, they suffered enough."

Oh, and I think that religion is bullshit. All of it.

[ernie]

I can't believe people here sometimes. You honestly think it is silly to be offended by this? Think of the utter horror of the holocaust. n almost unparalleled act of cruelty and think of all the people subjected to it because of their religion.
No, they weren't! They were murdered because the Hitler was insane. The Nazis killed all kinds of different people for all kinds of different irrational reasons.


Now a bunch of idiots are doing posthumous conversions, effectively saying that something about the religion of those who were murdered was wrong, that they should have belonged to a different religious group. They might as well throw pig's blood over a holocaust memorial.
Yes, they are a bunch of idiots, but not because they are "disrespecting the memory" of the Holocaust victims. The chairman of the AGHS is also an idiot for complaining about this. That raises the question: why are we even talking about this crap?:tt2:

[Elway]

Not just baptizing them, but going through huge genealogy projects and then baptizing those people by "representing them" and physically baptizing themselves in that person's name. One of my exes used to do this...the whole thing is a bit unsettling.

And if 4 kids next door to you used a ouji board and "determined" your soul was "going to Hell", would you be unsettled by it? How? Why? What would anyone care?

I actually didn't bring this up for the "disrespect issue", which all of us can get into; I brought it up because FROM A "RELIGIOUS POINT OF VIEW", if you BELIEVE in your faith, what do you care what other people do to your souls in "ceremonies"?

Being one who believes the construct of a religion is bullshit (whether one's soul goes to heaven or hell.) But if I DID believe in a religion, I'd laugh at any other religions ceremonies to have an affect on my life. That's all.

[Demogorgon]

No, they weren't! They were murdered because the Hitler was insane. The Nazis killed all kinds of different people for all kinds of different irrational reasons.


Yes, they are a bunch of idiots, but not because they are "disrespecting the memory" of the Holocaust victims. The chairman of the AGHS is also an idiot for complaining about this. That raises the question: why are we even talking about this crap?:tt2:

The Nazis killed a lot of people that is true, but what they did to the Jewish people is without parallel. And they were indeed targeted based on their religion, race and culture. To make out that there was indeed something wrong with their religious background is an act of enormous disrespect.

[Phalanx]

No, they weren't! They were murdered because the Hitler was insane. The Nazis killed all kinds of different people for all kinds of different irrational reasons.


Yes, they are a bunch of idiots, but not because they are "disrespecting the memory" of the Holocaust victims. The chairman of the AGHS is also an idiot for complaining about this. That raises the question: why are we even talking about this crap?:tt2:

Can you get more disrespectful? It doesn't matter what you think, it's horribly offensive to the victims' families and the survivors of the Holocaust. You've got absolutely no idea what it's like to be a victim of such a crime, in fact, none of us here do, so we've got absolutely no right to judge their opinion on the matter.

And the Holocaust didn't happen simply because "Hitler was insane". The Holocaust involved many, many murderers and many of them were educated, Ph.Ds and others.

[ernie]

FROM A "RELIGIOUS POINT OF VIEW", if you BELIEVE in your faith, what do you care what other people do to your souls in "ceremonies"?
Indeed. Even more: isn't it better for them that the Mormons are doing this? After all, what if the Mormons have the correct faith? They've just saved a bunch of victims from the chasms of hell for free! Talk about covering your bases. :D


But if I DID believe in a religion, I'd laugh at any other religions ceremonies to have an affect on my life. That's all.
Makes you wonder about the real reason behind them making such a big fuss about this...