Anarchists arrested in France for "TGV sabotage"

[Herman]

Train sabotage: eight leftwing anarchists arrested: minister

Eight members of an ultra-left anarchist group have been arrested in connection with a string of attacks on France's rail network, French Interior Minister Michele Alliot-Marie announced Tuesday.
In a communique transmitted to AFP the minister congratulated police and gendarmes "on their diligence, which enabled the eight people belonging to the far-left anarchist movement to be identified and arrested in connection with the sabotage of SNCF (state-run railways) overhead power cables in the past few days."
She said the successful operation, carried out at several points in France, had been made made possible thanks to months of investigation into the movement by France's intelligence and anti-terrorist services.
Thousands of passengers suffered long delays or cancellations on TGV high-speed trains to London, Brussels and across France Saturday after attackers jammed iron bars into overhead power cables at four points near Paris.
In a separate incident late on Sunday in the southwest of the country, a high-speed train rammed into a pair of concrete blocks placed on a line. No-one was injured and the train was only slightly damaged.
Although not certain whether Sunday's incident was connected, SNCF officials said Saturday's attacks appeared to be part of a well-organised campaign.
Five out of six recent attacks on the rail network have involved iron bars being placed on overhead cables, SNCF chairman Guillaume Pepy said.
Officials said the sophistication of the attacks showed the saboteurs were technically very competent, since neutralising 25,000-volt power lines required expert knowledge.



http://www.france24.com/en/20081111-train-sabotage-eight-leftwing-anarchists-arrested-minister-0

[Bilan]

Why were they doing that?

[bcbm]

Can anybody who knows French better than I do try to find out the names of those arrested?

[Charles Xavier]

Stupid anarchists bastards, people could have been killed over this meaningless action.

[which doctor]

Stupid anarchists bastards, people could have been killed over this meaningless action.
All they did was interrupt the power in the cables, therefore not allowing the trains to run. I don't think anyone's ever been killed by a stopped train.

[bcbm]

Why were they doing that?

There's been an anti-TGV campaign for a while with demos and such. Not sure on the specifics and having trouble finding any English resources on it.

[Herman]

It most likely has to do with either:

a) The financial crisis (e.g. firing workers)

b) Privatization


I don't think anyone's ever been killed by a stopped train.

Of course there has been! What about those people who accidentally hit their heads against a stopped wagon?

You've got to check your sources man, check your sources!

[Comrade B]

Of course there has been! What about those people who accidentally hit their heads against a stopped wagon?

You've got to check your sources man, check your sources!I think someone has died by tripping over a rock thrown earlier at a Nazi rally.
We'd best not throw rocks at Nazis... [sarcasm]

[thejambo1]

Stupid anarchists bastards, people could have been killed over this meaningless action.
whether you agree with what they did or not, and wheter you agree with anarchism or not, this has to be one of the most stupid comments i have ever seen on revleft!! you sir are a prize twat!!:mad:

[Annie K.]

As far as I know, their names have not been cited by the police. They probably won't do that before their trial. But there have been twenty arrests and at least 10 have been freed, so some information should appear in the next days.

And i'm sceptic about motiveless terrorism.

[Devrim]

Before people start throwing insults at anarchists, maybe they should find out who actually did it. The article mentions no organisations name at all.

To me when the state starts accusing 'anarchists' or 'communists' for actions, I am at least a little suspicious.

Devrim

[bcbm]

And i'm sceptic about motiveless terrorism.

I'm skeptical of terrorism that involves no act of violence or terror whatsoever.


Before people start throwing insults at anarchists, maybe they should find out who actually did it. The article mentions no organisations name at all.

To me when the state starts accusing 'anarchists' or 'communists' for actions, I am at least a little suspicious.

They've been infiltrating them for some time from the sounds of it and were pretty specific about their ideological labeling- "autonome-anarchists." I would guess there is no organization involved here, per se.

[bcbm]

Here's a more detailed article:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5132089.ece

Check out the comparisons to the various armed gangs in the 70's. Because now putting an iron bar on a cable and hurting no one is equivalent to setting bombs and shooting people.

[Junius]

Originally posted by bcbm
Because now putting an iron bar on a cable and hurting no one is equivalent to setting bombs and shooting people.

Certainly different in scope. Little different in effect.

[Devrim]

Here's a more detailed article:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5132089.ece


Looks even dodgier. There is still no name to this group.

Devrim

[bcbm]

Certainly different in scope. Little different in effect.Delaying trains is the same in effect as blowing off people's limbs or murdering them?


Looks even dodgier. There is still no name to this group. Why do you think a group doing this must have a name?

[Junius]

Originally posted by bcbm
Delaying trains is the same in effect as blowing off people's limbs or murdering them?In terms of promoting class consciousness? No. I both seem them as inane.

[bcbm]

In terms of promoting class consciousness? No. I both seem them as inane.

It doesn't seem like that would've been the goal here, but who knows I suppose.

[Catbus]

Stupid anarchists bastards, people could have been killed over this meaningless action.



Officials said the sophistication of the attacks showed the saboteurs were technically very competent, since neutralising 25,000-volt power lines required expert knowledge.


Of course since they're anarchists they didn't know what they were doing. :)

[Annie K.]

the SNCF, the state railway network whose high speed trains are a source of national pride. As bakunin once said : lol.
For information for non-french readers, the railway network property has been transfered from the SNCF to the RFF (reseau ferre de france, railroads network of france) in 1997 by a "socialist" government, in order to allow the future development of private companies using this network and the privatization of the SNCF.


I'm skeptical of terrorism that involves no act of violence or terror whatsoever.You're right, but the french Interior Minister doesn't seem to share your point of view. They are charged of "criminal conspiracy with a terrorist goal" ("association de malfaiteurs à visée terroriste", i'm not sure of the translation i made). As such they have less rights than a common suspect.

[Devrim]

Why do you think a group doing this must have a name?

Because I think it is being used as a propaganda attack against anarchists. When I think of anarchism in France, I think of the CNTs, the FA, OCL, and AL. I don't think that this would have been done by members of any of these groups.

Therefore, I would imagine that the people doing it were some sort of eco-lonies or whatever, and it is being used to smear anarchism.

Devrim

[Pogue]

Its not terrorism. Its not even that bad an act, it didn't danger anyone but it clearly had a purpose.

However I don't think they should have done it. It gives our movement a bad name, it doesnt acheive anything towards the class struggle, etc. It just means people get arrested and everyone thinks anarchists are ****s. Such perceptions are what the anarchist movement has to move against.

[nuisance]

The action believed to have been protesting the use of the trains to transport nuclear waste.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7722019.stm

[Annie K.]

Many anarchists in france aren't part of these organizations, and prefer to organize themselves in groups of friends.
I think this type of organization has become more important in the last periods of student protests.

But i'm really not sure that it was done by one of these groups, or even by leftists.

[F9]

I am with Devrim in this.Probably government had thrown the fault to the "bad anarchists", who want to stop "people transport" etc.By not putting in a groups name it means,in my eyes, that they have no clue who did it, and they decided to throw it to "Anarchists".

Fuserg9:star:

[Annie K.]

REUTERS | 12.11.2008 | 12:48 | Gardes à vue prolongées dans l’affaire des sabotages à la SNCF

"Les policiers du renseignement intérieur et de la sous-direction antiterroriste ne disposent pas pour l’instant de preuves. "

"Il n’y a pas d’élément matériel qui permette de les rattacher directement aux actes de malveillance, dit-on de source policière."

"Par coïncidence, les policiers de la sous-direction antiterroriste surveillaient depuis avril certains des suspects, ce qui leur a permis de voir certains d’entre eux s’approcher, dans la nuit de vendredi à samedi, d’une voie ferrée en Seine-et-Marne.
Les policiers n’ont cependant pas constaté de visu qu’ils avaient mis en place un dispositif de sabotage et n’ont rien remarqué d’anormal sur le coup."

"La police ne dispose pas encore, par ailleurs, des résultats des comparaisons entre les empreintes digitales et génétiques des suspects et les traces relevées sur les mécanismes utilisés pour les sabotages. La ministre de l’Intérieur Michèle Alliot-Marie avait évoqué des éléments comme preuves possibles."

"La police n’a retrouvé ni horaires de train, ni carte détaillée du réseau SNCF, ni explosifs, a déclaré cette source policière, démentant des informations de presse."

"Aurait en revanche été découvert, selon plusieurs médias, un manuel décrivant la conduite à tenir en cas de garde à vue, mais ce type de document circule largement parmi les activistes habitués aux interpellations après des manifestations."

Michèle Alliot-Marie avait pourtant déclaré à la sortie du conseil des ministres. "Les perquisitions ont permis de recueillir beaucoup de documents très intéressants".The police announced that, contrary to what was declared by the Interior Minister, there is no material evidence that links the individuals arrested to the acts of vandalism. Their domiciles have been searched, but no relevant documents have been found.
As the ADN traces found have not yet been comparated with those of the suspects, the fact that some of the members of the group watched by the police approached one of the places where the acts were committed seems to be the only incriminating element, but the police did not see them commit it.

[Devrim]

There is a thread on this on Libcom:
http://libcom.org/forums/news/french-anarchists-arrested-sabotage-12112008#new
Devrim

[bcbm]

The action believed to have been protesting the use of the trains to transport nuclear waste.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7722019.stm

They're only asserting this based on a similarity to some actions that happened in Germany, except that was actually against the specific trains. There's no real evidence. If anything, this bears more resemblance to things that have happened in Canada as solidarity actions with indigenous struggles.


Many anarchists in france aren't part of these organizations, and prefer to organize themselves in groups of friends.
I think this type of organization has become more important in the last periods of student protests.

This.

[Devrim]

Many anarchists in france aren't part of these organizations, and prefer to organize themselves in groups of friends.
I think this type of organization has become more important in the last periods of student protests.

I don't really consider these people to be anarchists. They are just individualists of some sort.

Devrim

[Small Geezer]

This is a truly glorious action. They must be situationists to have this principled grasp of the kind of actions it takes to bring down the leviathan of 'efficient' capitalism.

[The Feral Underclass]

8 left wing anarchists?

[The Feral Underclass]

Here's a more detailed article:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5132089.ece

Check out the comparisons to the various armed gangs in the 70's. Because now putting an iron bar on a cable and hurting no one is equivalent to setting bombs and shooting people.

...Michele Alliot-Marie, the Interior Minister, said: "These individuals are characterised by a total rejection of any democratic expression of political opinion and an extremely violent tone."

What a fucking idiot! That's just absurd. The problem with this is that no one knows why they did it. At least not internationally. This is the issue with actions like this; the propaganda war is always won by the state because we neglect it. It's just as essential as the action, otherwise pricks like this minister get to make things up about the motives. I mean, anyone with a slight interest in political thought will know what utter bollocks that statement is, but working class people who have had no interest in political thought are likely not to question it.

[The Feral Underclass]

It doesn't seem like that would've been the goal here, but who knows I suppose.


Why do you think a group doing this must have a name?Because essentially a group of militants have done something without telling anyone why and are now likely to spend years in prison. Not only has the movement now lost eight militants, it's going to have to use resources to support them when they could be used for something else, they've given us the worse publicity anyone could conceive and for seemingly no reason. For them, perhaps there was a reason, by no one here or anywhere else seems to have the faintest idea what it is?

I'm not opposed to these kinds of actions in principle, but there has to be some political follow through otherwise it's meaningless. Unless it's a personal victory, but I could find many ways to have personal victories that didn't involve me spending decades in jail and using up the movements resources unnecessarily.

[The Feral Underclass]

Many anarchists in france aren't part of these organizations, and prefer to organize themselves in groups of friends.
I think this type of organization has become more important in the last periods of student protests.

Important for who? And for what?

[Devrim]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/3451962/French-anarchists-linked-to-New-York-bombing.html

The anti-anarchist campaign widens.

Devrim

[Annie K.]

I meant that the people gathered in this type of informal groups are more numerous than before. But it's a guess.
Important to who ? themselves and all of us. For what ? the social revolution, of course.


The problem with this is that no one knows why they did it.Wait, it's not even sure they did it. It seems to me that they had just the bad luck to have some of their friends at the wrong place and the wrong time, and with the wrong kind of persons keeping watch on them.
And the wrong time, it's also the time when the interior minister has political problems on her own. The governement will probably be reshuffled soon, and she's not on the best terms with nicolas sarkozy. He hold her responsible for a scandal some months ago, when she decreeted the formalization and gathering of police files "endangering the civil rights" (they were meant to contain informations about the private life of all individuals who detain an even minor influence on politic, economic, social, or religious matter, or who may present a threat to law and order... they called that EDVIGE, now they think to change the name to EDVIRSP, but nothing was done).
She probably jumped on the opportunity to regain some credit in the party and in the court of the president. Putting some antidemocrat, violent anarchist terrorists in jail is always sure to please the french right. An old atavism.
There is a propaganda war. But this time, I think the other side shot first.

Anyway, even if these men and women did something stupid, it's no reason to call them militants, that's rude.


I don't really consider these people to be anarchists.Just because they aren't members of these organizations ?

[Devrim]

I don't really consider these people to be anarchists. Just because they aren't members of these organizations ?

I am not an expert on French anarchist organisations. There may well be others that I didn't mention. However, I don't really think you can take people seriously as militants who aren't members or sympathisers of political organisations.

From the Libcom thread:

christophe Bourseiller a journalist who wrote some books about the extreme left (as people says in France) said on the radio that there is some informations indicating that the people arrested are linked with primitivist / anti-civ groupings, that they are against technology and so on.

Devrim

[Annie K.]

Others national organisations exist, but their situation is not very different : their principal use, as you put it, is to qualify their members as serious militants. The exceptions are some of the local unions of the CNT, which can devellop a real syndicalist action.

But that's not very appealing. Everything is political, and our modes of organisation too : that's why the autonomist movement appeared. We don't want to be militants, we want to be free.


Oh, and cristophe bourseiller is hard to believe. Primitivism don't draw much sympathy here. Maybe they had contacts with primitivist groups, but they were probably not one.

[Sasha]

However, I don't really think you can take people seriously as militants who aren't members or sympathisers of political organisations.


i'm no member or suporter of any political organisation either, yet i have a more than a decade long involment in housing/squating, refugee, anti-fascist and other struggles, would you claim that i and my fellow activists should not be taken serious as militants?
acording to the anual report on threats to the nation of my local secret service most radical leftist activists are an part of what they call "fluïde netwerken" (don't know how to translate that).
i would say you clearly have no idea how the west european automist movement is organised.

[offtopic] intresting fact to mention is that for the last decade or so no domestic M-L groups or partys have been deemed threathing enough to the status quo to be under investigation by the secret service, goes to show how usseless those idiot anarchist are compared to our heroic vanguard [\offtopic]

[Devrim]

But that's not very appealing. Everything is political, and our modes of organisation too : that's why the autonomist movement appeared. We don't want to be militants, we want to be free.

To me this comes across as individualism, pure and simple. I am not an anarchist, but there are anarchists that I have respect for, and many of them get very tired of some of the rubbish which paints itself as anarchism.


i'm no member or suporter of any political organisation either, yet i have a more than a decade long involment in housing/squating, refugee, anti-fascist and other struggles, would you claim that i and my fellow activists should not be taken serious as militants?

I don't think your perspective has much to offer to workers in struggle. Sorry, but that is my opinion. It seems to be running around being involved in various things, some of which may be positive, some of them no more than militant liberalism, or lifestylism.


acording to the anual report on threats to the nation of my local secret service most radical leftist activists are an part of what they call "fluïde netwerken" (don't know how to translate that).
i would say you clearly have no idea how the west european automist movement is organised.

I think that most of the left has very little to offer.

I have a good idea of how the western European autonomist movement is organised.


"fluïde netwerken" (don't know how to translate that).

'Fluid networks'?


intresting fact to mention is that for the last decade or so no domestic M-L groups or partys have been deemed threathing enough to the status quo to be under investigation by the secret service, goes to show how usseless those idiot anarchist are compared to our heroic vanguard

I'm not actually a Marxist Leninist, nor do I think all anarchists are idiots. I just think that the autonomist perspective is a rejection of organisation.

One can see the reasons for it, a healthy rejection of the way that the leftist parties organised, but I think that it throws the baby out with the bath water.

Devrim

[Annie K.]

It is individualism, if you mean by that that the motives of the activists are their own desires. It's not, if you mean by that that the only change they want is on an individual level.

A revolutionnary don't act because he believes it as his historical role.

[Devrim]

It is individualism, if you mean by that that the motives of the activists are their own desires.

To me this comes across as the same old meaningless nonsense as it did the first time round. Second hand situationist phraseology certainly hasn't improved with age.

Devrim

[bcbm]

If the people they've arrested are connected with the group I think they are, I wouldn't really call them individualists and many of them don't even use the anarchist label. I'm having trouble getting in touch with my friends in France or I'd be able to say more concretely.

[Annie K.]

Well, first time it was individualism, now it's meaningless nonsense. I don't understand your point.

[Devrim]

Well, first time it was individualism, now it's meaningless nonsense. I don't understand your point.

I think that a rejection of the need for political organisation is rooted in petit-bourgeois individualism. That is not to say that the individuals putting it forward are from the petit-bourgeois themselves, but within class society, the working class is always under pressure from the ideologies of other classes. One of the things that typifies the working class in struggle is its collectivity, its efforts to unify itself as a class. I think that the whole affinity group thing, what we could call the circle spirt, is completly opposed to this.

The quasi-situationist phrases are, in my opinion, pseudo-radical slogans with little substance, or even meaning. What does it mean to say that 'that the motives of the activists are their own desires'?

Devrim

[bcbm]

Based on this article (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://mobile.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2008/11/12/les-autonomes-de-petits-groupes-sous-surveillance-particuliere_1117644_3224.html&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DJulien%2BCoupat%2Bcomite%2Binvisible% 26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DG) it seems that the arrested were "members" of the Comité Invisible, which is kind of what I had suspected all along. They're authors of a couple texts, only two of which have been translated to English (as far as I know) "The Insurrection to Come (http://deletetheborder.org/node/2216)" and "Call (http://anti-politics.net/archive/viewtopic.php?p=21702#p21702)."

They don't reject political organization, they just reject the traditional forms of political organizations such as unions. This group in particular has talked about the "party," though they envision it differently than most communists I think. They also seem to be associated more with the label "insurrectionary communism" or than anarchism, for what its worth.

[Annie K.]

That means basically that the consciousness of one's alienation in a class society is depending on the positive development of one's own refusal of the exploitation (and of others constraints). That's the most effective way to fight against ideology. "Those who talk about revolution and class struggle..."

There is no rejection of political organisations, it is on the contrary a politicizing of all human relations, and the subsequent organisation of a broad and open network.
I don't think this form of organisation incompatible with the unifying of the working class. Why should it be ?
But honnestly, I don't think either that the working class in european countries is still able to lead a revolution.

Edit : bcbm, nothing in this article tells us that they were members of it. It just tells that "the insurrection to come", written after the student protests movement of 2006, advocate the sabotage of infratructures important for the economic activity, as the electricity network or the railway network. But that idea has been largely diffused during the period, and not only by this invisible comitee. Why did you suspect this particular group for this particular action ?

[The Feral Underclass]

Important to who ? themselves and all of us.

How is the arrest and imprisonment of 8 anarchists important to "all of us"? And do you honestly think that these eight activists are going to keel that their action was work the amount of time they will now spend in jail? If they do, then they're mad.


For what ? the social revolution, of course.In what way has this facilitated or precipitated social revolution? The answer is that it hasn't on any level. In fact, it's probably done more damage to the movement in France than it has anything else.

I want to make it clear that I suppose these comrades and that I have no issue with these kinds of actions in principle, but they must either be followed up with political propagation or have some key objective that will effect the outcome of something specific.

What has happened here is that 8 anarchists get sent to jail for decades and the movement now has to support them, having lost 8 committed militants for seemingly nothing.

If it were meant as a propaganda of the deed then it has failed. If it were to inspire resistance then it has failed. If it were to piss off the rail bosses then it probably succeeded for a few days. Now they will be punished and everyone will go about their business.

It's a tragedy.

[bcbm]

Edit : bcbm, nothing in this article tells us that they were members of it. It just tells that "the insurrection to come", written after the student protests movement of 2006, advocate the sabotage of infratructures important for the economic activity, as the electricity network or the railway network. But that idea has been largely diffused during the period, and not only by this invisible comitee. Why did you suspect this particular group for this particular action ?The only named of those arrested, Julien C, is connected with this group. Also the mention of the farm, the arrests in Rouen and the other activities the group was supposed to have been involved in led me to this conclusion before finding that name out confirmed it.


but they must either be followed up with political propagation or have some key objective that will effect the outcome of something specific.

The arrests happened very quickly after the incident. Perhaps they didn't have enough time to get their message out?


What has happened here is that 8 anarchists get sent to jail for decades

They haven't been convicted yet and it sounds like they may not have sufficient evidence.


having lost 8 committed militants for seemingly nothing.

Lots of us getting thrown away for seemingly nothing these days. I think comrades both here and there have vastly underestimated the state forces and how seriously they take us, myself included.

[Devrim]

But honnestly, I don't think either that the working class in european countries is still able to lead a revolution.

This is the bottom line with modernism though, isn't it? For all of its verbal radicalism it ends up rejecting class politics. It is very typical of autonomism. For the autonomists, the working class ceases to be the revolutionary subject. The 'proletariat' becomes some vague amorphous mass including all of the 'oppressed', Negri's multitudes.

It never understood what was revolutionary about the working class in the first place, and because of this jumps between extreme verbal radicalism, and pessimism and rejection of class struggle.


"Those who talk about revolution and class struggle..."

Those who quote Ratgeb,... such people are generally repeating empty phrases.

Devrim

[black magick hustla]

Devrim, ahahahaha I did not know you really disliked modernists.

[Devrim]

Devrim, ahahahaha I did not know you really disliked modernists.

Actually, I dislike situationistism. I met Debord once, and he was very rude to my mother. I have always got on well with modernists on a personal level. I think that it is a matter of understanding what it is on a political level though.

Devrim

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

All they did was interrupt the power in the cables, therefore not allowing the trains to run. I don't think anyone's ever been killed by a stopped train.

It did mention that bricks were placed on the train tracks...

[Annie K.]

It is not the arrest that is important to us... Or the action itself, for that matter. I was talking about the existence of these groups and these individuals.
You say you are not opposed to this type of practice, so you probably know that they are able to make a difference. If the people arrested commited it, then this action have been a failure. But that happens, and that does not imply that there will be no political propagation. Maybe that will decide others groups to act, and to avoid the errors of this one.

In fact, it has surely done no damage (except for the detention of these activists) to the movement.
One of the key elements of the anti-CPE movement in 2006 have been the blockades of universities. We interrupted our normal daily life and took the places and time we needed to talk, to gather, to dream, to party, etc. It was a very polemical thing to do, as the decision was taken initially by the militants and activists, and not by the majority of the students. It was very effective to extent the movement at first. A student which attends its classes can agree with our revendications, and then return to its normal occupations. But a student who can't attend his classes, if he agree with our revendications, join our movement and become something more than a student.
Then daily life took over.
But we all remember that, and now I think that's what they tried to do. Stop the economic time. That was not enough, but it was probably meant as an example. Time will tell if it worked. It's been only four days.

And I've still hope the comrades are not lost. No proof has been discovered yet.
And one day in jail is one too much, I know. But even if they are convicted, they are not likely to spend decades of years in jail, as they made only material damages and didn't endangered any human being.
The night of sarkozy's election, in a town near Lyon, two "anarcho-autonomists" threw two cocktails molotov in a local UMP premise, at the first floor of an housing building. They were caught, and in the end sentenced to 9 months in jail. That's a tragedy, but they are now relatively free.

[Annie K.]

For the autonomists, the working class ceases to be the revolutionary subject.And they're right about it, concerning the working classes in advanced capitalist societies.
The working class was the revolutionnary class because it was exploited and was conscious of it. It is still exploited, but most of it is no longer conscious about it.
Class struggle is a valid theory. But revolution is not always at stake.
(On a side point, negri's work has been widely criticised in the autonomist movement.)

I met Debord once, and he was very rude to my mother.That's a joke ?


It did mention that bricks were placed on the train tracks...The police said it was not done by the same group.

[Devrim]

And they're right about it, concerning the working classes in advanced capitalist societies.
The working class was the revolutionnary class because it was exploited and was conscious of it. It is still exploited, but most of it is no longer conscious about it.
Class struggle is a valid theory. But revolution is not always at stake.

Was the working class conscious of itself in 1914 when it was volunteering for the war? within the next five years they tried to storm heaven across the world. Consciousness is a changing thing. Their can be development of it, but also regression.


(On a side point, negri's work has been widely criticised in the autonomist movement.)

I think that Negri is just an example. The ideas are more widespread than his particular packaging of them.


That's a joke ?

No, I was replying to Marmot about disliking these people. Situationism had some interesting insights about the sphere of consumption, and art, but basically politically it was a reheating of Castoriadis' ideas. Debord was in SouB for a while. By the way they were another current which ultimately rejected class struggle.

Basically situationism is the rehashed politics of somebody breaking from Trotskyism, but unable to transcend it. I wouldn't buy a sedond hand political ideology off someone like that.

On Debord personally, he was an unpleasant egotistical man who was very rude to my mother for the sole crime of not knowing that he was the 'famous' Guy Debord. I didn't like him.

Devrim

[Annie K.]

Consciousness is a changing thing. Their can be development of it, but also regression.Sure thing. Cousciousness is dependent of the conditions of existence of the class. A war could change them, and expand it.
But there's no war coming in a near future for europeans. So we must change our conditions of existence on our own, without generals to guide us.

That's definitely not a reject of class struggle. Just an acknowledgement that the struggle part is to be applied.


Basically situationism is the rehashed politics of somebody breaking from Trotskyism, but unable to transcend it.Castoriadis was breaking with trotskyism, but not debord. And he didn't last so long in SoB.
That said, i never tried to appreciate debord on a personnal level. When did you meet him ?

[Devrim]

Sure thing. Cousciousness is dependent of the conditions of existence of the class. A war could change them, and expand it.
But there's no war coming in a near future for europeans. So we must change our conditions of existence on our own, without generals to guide us.

No, I don't think that generalised war is coming, but then it wasn't coming in the 1970s.

There was a re-emergence of class struggle on a world level in the late sixties, and early seventies culminating in the mass strike in Poland in 1980. In 1981 the working class suffered a terrible defeat in Poland, which was the opening of a period of retreat. The 80s saw large struggles, but in the vast majority of them the workers were isolated and defeated. The nineties were terrible years for both the working class and revolutionaries, but since the early years of this decade we have started to see, on an international level, a return to class struggle.

All of this process happened without generalised war.


That's definitely not a reject of class struggle. Just an acknowledgement that the struggle part is to be applied.

So who today is the revolutionary subject, if you believe that revolution is even possible.


Castoriadis was breaking with trotskyism, but not debord. And he didn't last so long in SoB.

Yes, he was only there briefly, but he took a lot of his political ideas from there.


That said, i never tried to appreciate debord on a personnal level. When did you meet him ?

You are quite lucky:). I met him in 80s. Everyone I have ever spoke to who met him thinks that he was a very unpleasant person.

Devrim

[Annie K.]

No, I don't think that generalised war is coming, but then it wasn't coming in the 1970s.I never understood how a link could be made between the workers revolts in bureaucratic systems and the contestation movement initiated by the youth and the students in western countries. Except maybe in the fact that the parties of the communist international lost their legitimate monopol on social struggle.

The youth movements were caused by the stress put on an old contradiction of the capitalism by the period's economic organisation changes. The augmentation of non-working youth (in universities and in ghettos) made the usual means of control of these populations ineffective. The elitism of the students, their community with their professors, the links between this community and the political and economic elites, their social homogeneity, all these became nonsense after 65. And concerning the majority of the working-class youth who had not access to the universities, this evolution meant still the loss of the old automatism which consisted to follow one's father to the factory. With the diminution of the power of the police and the churches on the growing excluded youth, the situation became explosive.
Mostly, it was still the consequences of the war, but that would probably had happened without it, only later.
But that's not the point. These movements were not led by the working class. In europe, a strong link between a revolutionnary youth and the working class could appear in a pre-revolutionnary moment, like in mai 68, but it was only temporary. (Oh, by the way, what do you think of the calls of the sorbonne occupation comitee to the occupations of factories ?)
The working class had still at the time a revolutionnary tradition which helped the union of the two classes, but it had also an exclusive organisationnal tradition which, in the end, made it end.
In the US, where nor revolutionnary tradition, nor the revolutionnary youth had a significant influence, the union of the youth movement with the working class was not even approached.


The nineties were terrible years for both the working class and revolutionaries, but since the early years of this decade we have started to see, on an international level, a return to class struggle.Again, I don't deny the existence of class struggle. I just don't see any important revolutionnary tendancy in the struggles of the working class of advanced capitalist countries.
That may change. Maybe the economic crisis will allow this change. Maybe not, as the last ones did not.

And again, if ever the working class of these countries become suddenly a revolutionnary force, a network of interindividual groups seems to be a form of organisation far more apt to unify the revolutionnaries of this class and of others, and to spread political action, than the formal and national federations and parties.


So who today is the revolutionary subject, if you believe that revolution is even possible.I don't know if the revolution is possible. I just know that I want to get rid of all constraints, and that an individual change won't suffice. But I stick with the definition by the situationnists : if he is alienated and knows it, then he is a proletarian.


Everyone I have ever spoke to who met him thinks that he was a very unpleasant person.Hm. I asked this because In girum imus nocte always seemed to me far more seriously conceited than his more early films. Old age...

[Devrim]

I never understood how a link could be made between the workers revolts in bureaucratic systems and the contestation movement initiated by the youth and the students in western countries. Except maybe in the fact that the parties of the communist international lost their legitimate monopol on social struggle.

I think the link between France for example in 1968 and Poland in 1980-81 is the mass strike.


But that's not the point. These movements were not led by the working class. In europe, a strong link between a revolutionnary youth and the working class could appear in a pre-revolutionnary moment, like in mai 68, but it was only temporary.

I think that we are talking about fundamentally different movements here. I am talking about the strike movements across Europe in the 70s. You seem to be talking about the 'student revolt'. Yes, there are intersections particularly in France in 68, but they are different movements.


(Oh, by the way, what do you think of the calls of the sorbonne occupation comitee to the occupations of factories ?)

It is another issue, but in some ways the factory occupations were a trap that isolated workers.


The working class had still at the time a revolutionnary tradition which helped the union of the two classes,

Just out of interest when the the working class stop having a revolutionary tradition in your opinion?


Again, I don't deny the existence of class struggle. I just don't see any important revolutionnary tendancy in the struggles of the working class of advanced capitalist countries.
That may change. Maybe the economic crisis will allow this change. Maybe not, as the last ones did not.

What do you think are 'revolutionary tendencies' in struggles?


And again, if ever the working class of these countries become suddenly a revolutionnary force, a network of interindividual groups seems to be a form of organisation far more apt to unify the revolutionnaries of this class and of others, and to spread political action, than the formal and national federations and parties.

I would totally reject this sort of approach. To me it comes across as elitism. It is all about groups of friends, and cliques.


I don't know if the revolution is possible. I just know that I want to get rid of all constraints, and that an individual change won't suffice. But I stick with the definition by the situationnists : if he is alienated and knows it, then he is a proletarian.

Again this statement from the situationists is something that is quite common to modernism. For our current as for Marx, there is no difference between the proletariat, and the working class. It is an economic condition. It is not connected to whether one 'knows it'.

It is part of the modernist rejection of the working class as a revolutionary force. Either the definition is widen to become meaningless (as with Camette), or is narrowed even to the point when it represents nobody except the writers and their clique (as with Debord). They are opposite side of the same coin.

Devrim

[Annie K.]

I think the link between France for example in 1968 and Poland in 1980-81 is the mass strike.I was asking about a link that could allow you to tell the capacities of the workers struggle of one country while looking at the workers struggles in another one...

And that's right, I misunderstood your reference to the 70's. I supposed you were talking about the youth movements, as I don't know about any major evolution of the consciousness of the working class during that time, or at least not at the scale of the one that the first world war produced.
Revolutionnary tendancies in a movement are revealed, in my opinion, when the movement cannot be reproduced regularly without endangering seriously the continuity of the capitalist institutions. I don't recall any movement in the 70's which, while gathering only the working class of a western country, could fit in this definition.


Just out of interest when the the working class stop having a revolutionary tradition in your opinion?Between 1936 and 1995. Well, i could give some dates for this in france: the year when the socialist party abandonned the reference to the revolution, the year when the communist party abandonned the reference to the dictature of the proletariat or the year when it first got less than 10% in a presidential election... or maybe the day of the grenelle's agreements. Yet even today, this tradition is not completely lost, but it is no more an influential element of the working class mobilisations.
Now the only people (in france still (i should travel more)) that sing "the commune's not dead" or "beware the revenge", are these "anarcho-autonomists".


It is all about groups of friends, and cliques.No it's not. The IS was one thing and these groups are another. It is about a network of groups of friends, unlimited by for example, some particular interests like are the local unions of a confederation, or by a national discipline like are the cells of a party, or by the necessity to spend too much time and opportunities to organize and maintain the group like all the formal groups.


For our current as for Marx, there is no difference between the proletariat, and the working class.What is your current ?
And if you want my opinion, marx was not a prophet nor a manicheist, his analysis of the class struggle can be dated and surely is not as simplist as you say.

Of course, if you interpret any statement about the evolution of the working class during the last century as a "modernist rejection of class struggle", any further explanation is necessarily a part of it.
Nothing in what I read of the situationnists allow me to think that they limited their understanding of the proletariat to theirselves. I think that is why they called their group the situationnist international and not the proletarian international.
True, the definition of the proletariat has unclear frontiers and can be widened or narrowed, but that's not different for any definition of the working class.

[Devrim]

I was asking about a link that could allow you to tell the capacities of the workers struggle of one country while looking at the workers struggles in another one...

But the working class is surely an international class. You can't really look at its struggles on a purely national basis.


as I don't know about any major evolution of the consciousness of the working class during that time, or at least not at the scale of the one that the first world war produced.

Obviously not, but if you compare it to the long dark years of the counter revolution, there was a clear resurgence of workers struggles. It wasn't like after WW I but then it wasn't a revolutionary period.


Revolutionnary tendancies in a movement are revealed, in my opinion, when the movement cannot be reproduced regularly without endangering seriously the continuity of the capitalist institutions. I don't recall any movement in the 70's which, while gathering only the working class of a western country, could fit in this definition.

But do they just appear fully formed? The working class went through long periods of struggle before the revolutionary wave.


Between 1936 and 1995. Well, i could give some dates for this in france: the year when the socialist party abandonned the reference to the revolution, the year when the communist party abandonned the reference to the dictature of the proletariat or the year when it first got less than 10% in a presidential election... or maybe the day of the grenelle's agreements. Yet even today, this tradition is not completely lost, but it is no more an influential element of the working class mobilisations.

I think that the SP and CP were openly bourgeois parties long before 1995, in fact before 1936.


No it's not. The IS was one thing and these groups are another. It is about a network of groups of friends, unlimited by for example, some particular interests like are the local unions of a confederation, or by a national discipline like are the cells of a party, or by the necessity to spend too much time and opportunities to organize and maintain the group like all the formal groups.

I think that your way of looking at this is completely wrong.


What is your current ?

http://internationalism.org/500/

Devrim

[Annie K.]

The forms of the class-based society change over time and space. The forms of the class struggle change with it.
Marx wrote about the necessarily different expressions of the class struggle in the european feodal systems of the 18th century and the capitalist systems of the 19th century. As poland and belgium, for example, were separated in the 70's by their respective systems, and also by a political decision, the workers struggles in both are not of a same movement. In lack of a material connection, their simultaneity is a coincidence.


if you compare it to the long dark years of the counter revolution, there was a clear resurgence of workers struggles. Yes. Like I said, I never contested the existence of workers struggles, just the blind identification of the working class as the revolutionnary class, without analysing its conditions of existence. That's an ideological conception of the working class.
And of course, before a revolutionnary wave there's a period of limited struggles, but that don't mean much. As you pointed, the resurgence of the working class struggles in the 70's ended without making the eventuality revolution more close (except for poland, but again, different systems, different struggles). I don't say it has been in vain, just that it isn't sufficient.


I think that the SP and CP were openly bourgeois parties long before 1995, in fact before 1936.Maybe. But these parts of their programs were adressed to the working class. If they thought that it was no longer necessary to talk about revolution and class struggle (without...) to get their votes is revealing.


I think that your way of looking at this is completely wrong.Teach me the way, then.


http://internationalism.org/500/Hahaha, the CCI. Since the end of IMC paris i forgot about you, but I've always wondered if you guys laugh when you write your texts as much as i did when i read them.

[bcbm]

Perhaps the debate between Devrim and Annie could be split? There's more news today on this case, two people have been charged with four more to appear soon.


Two face charges over French rail sabotage


Associated Free Press

Published: Saturday, November 15, 2008
Two people in their 20s have been formally notified they face terrorism charges in connection with recent sabotage attacks on France's high speed rail network, their lawyer said Saturday.

Seven more alleged members of an "invisible cell with a project of armed struggle" are also to appear before an anti-terrorism investigating magistrate.

Thousands of passengers and more than 160 train services were delayed last weekend after a gang jammed steel rods across overhead power cables on three high-speed lines between Paris and London, Brussels and the French regions.

The attack halted trains and damaged several sections of 25,000-volt power lines, but no one was hurt.

The lawyer for Bertrand D., a 23-year-old sociology student, and Elsa H., 22, doing a master's degree in English, said they had been told they face charges of criminal conspiracy related to a terrorist enterprise.

The two are part of a group of four against whom the authorities do not have enough evidence to show they were directly involved in the attack on the overhead power cables.

There is, according to the lawyer Dominique Valles, a "complete lack of proportion between the description ... and what they can really be accused of."

"These are students who, to be sure, lived a life of commitment but there is no ban on having political opinions," she said, emphasising they did not have "the profile of worrying anarchists."

"It is shocking to stigmatize them to this degree on the basis of vague facts," she said.

A notification of possible prosecution means that a magistrate believes there are "serious and corroborating indications" of the implication of those being questioned in five attacks on the high speed network at the end of October and last weekend.

Nine people, four men and five women, aged between 22 and 34, most from confortable backgrounds, were under surveillence as part of an investigation opened in April.

The Paris prosecutor Jean-Claude Marin said they had taken part in violent demonstrations and had ties with similar groups in Germany, Greece, Italy and the United States.

Shortly after their arrests on Tuesday Interior Minister Michele Alliot-Marie said the nine belonged to an ultra-left, anarchist movment.

A farm in the central French department of Correze where several lived was searched and allegedly yielded railway network maps, material that might be used for sabotage, anarchist literature and documents on how to attack overhead cables.

Five members of the group, styling itself the "invisible cell", were seen on the night of November 7 to 8 close to places where sabotage occurred. The five are regarded as the hard core and include the presumed head of the gang, a man of 34.

The prosecution argues that he "led a structure with terrorist aims", a crime that carries a 20 year sentence.



edit: This article says seven people have been charged.



A French judge has slapped terrorism charges on seven people suspected of sabotaging France's rail network, including the 34-year-old alleged ringleader of the self-styled "invisible cell".
If found guilty of heading a terrorist organisation, Julien Coupat, a former sociology student, faces up to 20 years in jail.
He was also warned by magistrate Thierry Fragnoli that he faces charges connected with membership of a terrorist organisation and a refusal to submit to a DNA test.
Thousands of passengers and more than 160 train services were delayed last weekend after a gang jammed steel rods across overhead power cables on three high-speed lines between Paris and London, Brussels and the French regions.
The attack halted trains and damaged several sections of 25,000-volt power lines, but no one was hurt.
Nine people, four men and five women, aged between 22 and 34, most from comfortable backgrounds, were later detained and it emerged they had been under surveillance as part of an investigation opened in April.
More details about Coupat emerged on Saturday with investigators describing him as a brilliant student from a well-off background who had drifted into violent action.
His father was a doctor, his mother a senior executive and he had been to a top business school.
In the town in central France where he eventually established himself he took over the grocery store and was liked by the locals.
Coupat is one of five of those arrested suspected of having taken an active part in the sabotage operations. Investigators say they do not have evidence linking the other four directly to the sabotage.
All nine are alleged to have belonged to an anarchist movement styling itself the "invisible cell".
Seven had been taken before the magistrate on Saturday evening and been told they faced charges of various gravity in relation to the sabotage. The remaining two were expected to appear later.
A magistrate responsible for deciding on whether five of those facing serious charges should remain in custody, as requested by prosecutors, was due to rule on Saturday night.
Coupat's girlfriend, Yldun L, and another young woman, Gabrielle H, face charges of causing damage, criminal conspiracy and participation in a terrorist enterprise.
Benjamin R and his girlfriend Manon G are accused of criminal conspiracy in connection with a terrorist enterprise but the magistrate rejected prosecution claims that they had taken part in the attack on the overhead power cables.
The first two to appear before the magistrate were Elsa H and Bertrand D, whose involvement in the attack was not established. They face the same charges but were not kept in custody.

[Sasha]

LE COUP DE TARNAC

Dix personnes ont été interpellées mardi 11 novembre matin à Tarnac en Corrèze, à Paris, à Rouen et à Baccarat lors d’une opération baptisée « Taïga » qui a mobilisé 150 policiers. Neuf sont en garde à vue dans les locaux de la direction centrale du renseignement intérieur (DCRI) à Levallois, la dixième, mère d’une des gardées à vue, est en garde à vue à Nancy. Il leur est reproché d’appartenir à « l’ultra-gauche tendance anarcho-autonome » et d’être lié à une série de cinq sabotages de caténaires SNCF dans l’Oise, l’Yonne, la Seine-et-Marne et la Moselle. Un sixième cas de sabotage près de Narbonne a été évoqué puis écarté parce que de conception différente des premiers. Sous les coups de la législation anti-terroriste, cette garde à vue, a été reconduite quatre journées consécutives, durant 96 heures. Les suspects devront être ensuite, soit présentés à un magistrat anti-terroriste, soit remis en liberté sans charges.

D’après la ministre de l’intérieur Michèle Alliot-Marie et les services de police qui les espionnaient depuis des mois à la manière du KGB des films américains, les dix inculpés auraient été aperçus « a proximité des lieux » où les sabotages ont été commis « à des heures pouvant correspondre » mais les policiers n’ont cependant pas constaté qu’ils avaient mis en place un dispositif de sabotage et n’ont rien remarqué d’anormal sur le coup. En outre, la ministre affirme que « les perquisitions ont permis de recueillir beaucoup de documents très intéressants » et reproche à ces individus de se caractériser par « le rejet de toute expression politique démocratique et un discours extrêmement violent ». Ces maigres éléments, a priori tout à fait insuffisants pour engager de quelconques poursuites judiciaires, ont cependant suffit au ministère de l’intérieur pour prendre leurs fantasmes « d’une résurgence violente de l’extrémisme radical » pour une réalité et enclencher une vaste opération policière spectaculaire à grands retentissements médiatiques.

Alors que les policiers du renseignement intérieur et de la sous-direction anti-terroriste ne disposent pas pour l’instant de preuves, la présumée innocence des « présumés auteurs » a été piétinée en long, en large et en travers par le gouvernement, les médias mais aussi les syndicats et la LCR. Dès le début des opérations, le président Nicolas Sarkozy s’est aussitôt félicité des « progrès rapides et prometteurs obtenus dans le cadre de l’enquête » par cette « opération éclair » des services de police.

Les médias ont immédiatement emboîté le pas et relayé les théories fantasmagoriques du ministère de l’intérieur sans aucun travail d’enquête complémentaire ni émettre le moindre doute sur le bien fondé des accusations. Enfin, les syndicats des cheminots se sont publiquement et abondamment réjouis d’être si vite mis hors de cause parce qu’aucun employé de la SNCF n’a été arrêté. Le leader de la LCR, Olivier Besancenot, s’empresse de condamner des actes de sabotage qui ne « sont pas et ne seront jamais » ceux de la LCR. Pour Sud-Rail, il s’agit d’actes terroristes et le syndicat met en garde « ceux qui frisent la diffamation en voulant confondre terrorisme et action syndicale ». Bref, le bouc-émissaire que l’imaginaire douteux du ministère de l’intérieur a baptisé « ultra-gauche tendance anarcho-autonome » arrange tout le monde, excepté les quelques 350 habitants de Tarnac qui font bloc pour soutenir leurs épiciers et leur président du comité des fêtes.

Quand le spectre du terrorisme et son effet de vent glacial sera passé et apparaîtra pour ce qu’il est, une manipulation médiatique, il sera intéressant de mettre tous ces sbires hypocrites des syndicats soi disant radicaux et des partis soi disant révolutionnaires face à leurs discours parfois plus accusateurs encore que celui de la police, où ils se réjouissent sans détours de l’arrestation d’innocents, seulement coupables de ne pas avoir acheter la carte de leurs sectes, accusés de sabotages sans aucun éléments à charge et de terrorisme pour des actes qui n’ont pas encore été commis mais qui auraient pu l’être selon ces paranoïaques. Ils se sont tous empressés de condamner de façon définitive les 10 individus, se montrant ainsi encore plus expéditif que la justice de Sarkozy qui n’a pas encore rendu son verdict. A écouter tous ces charlatans professionnels du syndicalisme, il faudrait croire que le sabotage n’a jamais appartenu à leur histoire !

Pourtant, le secrétaire adjoint de la CGT de 1901 à 1908, un certain Émile Pouget, loin de condamner les saboteurs de la machine, n’avait pas peur, lui, de saluer leurs actes et de les préconiser comme outil pour les luttes syndicales. A cette époque, où le droit de grève était piétiné par les patrons et les gouvernements, où les manifestations des travailleurs étaient réprimées dans le sang comme à Chicago ou à Fourmies, le sabotage apparaissait alors comme la solution, le moyen de lutte le plus efficace pour protester contre des conditions de travail inacceptables et revendiquer la journée de huit heures sans se faire fusiller. (on pourra télécharger une réédition de sa brochure ici : http://www.indymedia.nl/images/extlink.gif http://www.cntaittoulouse.lautre.ne (http://www.cntaittoulouse.lautre.ne/)...)

Aujourd’hui encore, le droit de grève est attaqué de tout côté : il y a la pression de l’état avec le service minimum, la pression de l’employeur avec la précarisation de l’emploi et le chantage au licenciement, il y a aussi tous les chômeurs qui n’ont pas la possibilité de faire grève. On ne peut pas compter sur les syndicats pour le défendre, trop préoccupés qu’ils sont à négocier leur part du gâteau avec le Pouvoir.

Dans de telles circonstances, une résurgence et une prolifération des actes de sabotage est plus que prévisible, c’est une certitude logique et ce ne sont pas les discours complètement à côté de la plaque des syndicats, partis et autres imposteurs qui y changeront quoi que ce soit.

Le sabotage reste un outil à la disposition des travailleurs pour mettre en œuvre leur imagination combative dans le dessein de justes revendications.

L’état et le patronat ont réduit à la portion congrue le droit de grève et les possibilités des travailleurs d’y recourir mais ce n’est pas là une invention moderne. Dans le passé, face à cette situation, les travailleurs se sont fait saboteurs et ce n’est pas en les traitant de terroristes qu’on arrêtera leur œuvre.

Pour la Révolution sociale,

Vers le Communisme Libertaire !

CNT AIT (Syndicat Interco Paris Nord)

http://www.indymedia.nl/images/extlink.gif http://cnt-ait.info (http://cnt-ait.info/)

translation of the statement in dutch:
http://www.indymedia.nl/nl/2008/11/55857.shtml

[Sasha]

[update] France: Seven charged ov TGV rail sabotage
nn - 19.11.2008 03:43

A French judge has slapped terrorism charges on seven people suspected of sabotaging France's rail network, including the 34-year-old alleged ringleader of the self-styled "invisible cell".

For what exactly happened see:
http://www.indymedia.nl/images/extlink.gif http://www.indymedia.nl/nl/2008/11/55755.shtml

from various sources, updated 18 November 2008:

The judge found guilty of heading a terrorist organisation, Julien Coupat, a former sociology student, faces up to 20 years in jail.

He was also warned by magistrate Thierry Fragnoli that he faces charges connected with membership of a terrorist organisation and a refusal to submit to a DNA test.

Thousands of passengers and more than 160 train services were delayed last weekend after a gang jammed steel rods across overhead power cables on three high-speed lines between Paris and London, Brussels and the French regions.

The attack halted trains and damaged several sections of 25,000-volt power lines, but no one was hurt.

Nine people, four men and five women, aged between 22 and 34, most from comfortable backgrounds, were later detained and it emerged they had been under surveillance as part of an investigation opened in April.

More details about Coupat emerged on Saturday with investigators describing him as a brilliant student from a well-off background who had drifted into violent action.

His father was a doctor, his mother a senior executive and he had been to a top business school.

In the town in central France where he eventually established himself he took over the grocery store and was liked by the locals.

Coupat is one of five of those arrested suspected of having taken an active part in the sabotage operations. Investigators say they do not have evidence linking the other four directly to the sabotage.

All nine are alleged to have belonged to an anarchist movement styling itself the "invisible cell".

Seven had been taken before the magistrate on Saturday evening and been told they faced charges of various gravity in relation to the sabotage. The remaining two were expected to appear later.

A magistrate responsible for deciding on whether five of those facing serious charges should remain in custody, as requested by prosecutors, was due to rule on Saturday night.

Coupat's girlfriend, Yldun L, and another young woman, Gabrielle H, face charges of causing damage, criminal conspiracy and participation in a terrorist enterprise.

Benjamin R and his girlfriend Manon G are accused of criminal conspiracy in connection with a terrorist enterprise but the magistrate rejected prosecution claims that they had taken part in the attack on the overhead power cables.

The first two to appear before the magistrate were Elsa H and Bertrand D, whose involvement in the attack was not established. They face the same charges but were not kept in custody.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++
Support from the small town of Tarnac:

A committee has been set up by the ex-mayor of the small town of Tarnac, as well as the present mayor of a nearby town:

http://www.indymedia.nl/images/extlink.gif http://www.france-info.com/spip.php?article212336&theme=69&sous_theme=69

The gist is, that these people are peaceful and respected by the local peasantry, they're considered a boon to this small, isolated area, and their "commune" has helped to keep the local economy solvent in the face of rural emigration.

-------------------------------

up to one-hundred people attended the meeting which created the support committee for the arrested, and one of the co-founders of the committee noted, contrary to press reports, that the arrested youths were living 'out in the open' and were 'well integrated' into the community.

http://www.indymedia.nl/images/extlink.gif http://www.france-info.com/spip.php?article212336&theme=69&sous_theme=69

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++
Support from CNT AIT Union:

Dear Friends,

Here a text in french regarding this story. Sorry we didn't translmated it and if someone has the ability and time to do so ...

The state said that some sabotage have been perpetrated against TGV (may be). The sabotage's devices where placed to short out of run the TGV but certainly not to derail it. No risk of killing accident at all.

The group arrested is not stricly anarchist (as they reject any kind of "label") even if they are clearly inspired by anarchism, insurrectionnalism, situationnism, autonomy, primitivism (anti technology ?) and consillisme. But this is too restrictive : they are their own theory.

But what is sure is that they are not involved in this State bluff ...

> even bourgeois law gives benefit of the doubt to the accused until proven beyond reasonable doubtThat is where the problem lies : it is quite "normal" that State and Medias do not respect that.
But the unions also said immediately the young guys where guilty and should be jailed !!! No surprise, the communist CGT told it. But also the so called "radical" or "rank and fill" or "alternative" union of SUD railways ... (in which Alternative Libertaire claim to have some influence ...)

Regarding the alleged links with "CNT", it is true that during the last strike in november 2007, CNT-AIT gave its support to some sabotages actions that occured during the strike (http://www.indymedia.nl/images/extlink.gif http://www.cnt-ait.info/ecrire/articles.php3?id_article=1469)

Below a communiqué issued by the CNT AIT Paris group. Since it has been written, the 9 has been convicted of terrorism while the Judge said he has not any evidence against them ... expect the fact that they refuse to say one word while interrogating by anti terrorist section. Their silence is the evidence ...

SOLIDARITY

================================

more info for now:

Du sabotage considere comme un des Beaux Arts (flyer/poster)
http://www.indymedia.nl/images/extlink.gif http://nantes.indymedia.org/article/15291
http://www.indymedia.nl/images/extlink.gif http://nantes.indymedia.org/attachments/nov2008/sabotage.pdf

translation of this text see:
http://www.indymedia.nl/images/extlink.gif http://situationist.gq.nu/nantes.html

Le coup de Tarnac
http://www.indymedia.nl/images/extlink.gif http://anarced.over-blog.org/article-24723406.html

Sur les sabotages de voies de chemin de fer
http://www.indymedia.nl/images/extlink.gif http://nantes.indymedia.org/article/15296

about the precedent stories, one of the prisoners wrote this text in october: (anybody wants to translate please feel free and post)
http://www.indymedia.nl/images/extlink.gif http://nantes.indymedia.org/article/15296

[Sasha]

Open letter of the parents of the "Tarnac 5"
nn - 28.11.2008 02:21

an open letter to all, from some of the parents of the Tarnac 5:

When all the media come together in a cacophony of lies to slander a
handful of young people currently languishing in jail it is very difficult
to find the right tone with which to call an end to this racket and make
room for a little truth.

Many journalists bent over backwards to confirm the statements of the
Minister of the Interior, even while the raids were still taking place.
Those arrested were assumed to be guilty from the outset.

No one could miss the sensationalist reality cop show that our children
have been forced to star in throughout the last week. The anguish, fear,
and tears have submerged us and continue to do so. But probably what has
hurt us the most, destroyed us the most, is the flood of lies that have
been let loose. Today it was our children, tomorrow it could be yours. We
are still stunned, but we are no longer paralyzed. The various facts which
follow are an attempt to reestablish the truth and to silence the public
condemnation.

Our children have evidently benefitted from special treatment, enclosed in
shadows for 108 hours, for some without any charges, and to justify this
we are told that they must be very special people, the kind that one
doesn't find on any street corner. But at the same time we are reminded
that they are actually very normal, for everyday they become more
numerous, and take up positions at every one of your street corners.

The police reproach our children for being too organized, for attempting
to provide locally for their basic needs, for reopening a village grocery
store which had closed down, for cultivating abandoned lands, for
organizing the distribution of food for old people in their area. Is it an
evil to self-organize for basic needs? Here, when we have heard wind of
crisis? Our children have been categorized as radicals. Radical, in the
dictionary, means: taking up the problem at its root. In Tarnac our
children planted carrots without bosses or leaders. Because they naively
think that life, intelligence and decisions are more joyous when they are
collective.

We are concerned to learn from the Minster of the Interior that simply
reading the book The Coming Insurrection by the Invisible Committee can
make someone a terrorist. As a result of the free publicity the Minister
has given the book through speaking of it in the media she risks soon
counting 25,000 of them on her territory. For those who take the time to
read it, this book is not a terrorist catechism, but a political essay
which attempts to open new perspectives, and one of last year's best
selling social science books according to the Nouvel Observateur and
Libération.

Our children are accused of going to a demonstration at Vichy on November
3rd. Some among us are the children, the grand children, of those deported
by the Vichy regime. That our own children have taken the decision to go
and physically oppose the functioning of a summit on immigration in this
city of such symbolic significance, this fills us with pride, but also
with hope and courage.

Let us return to the suspicions leveled against our children. Contrary to
what has been said, and what we might think, the sabotage of railway lines
did not terrorize the population or put anyone in danger. It simply caused
the population to lose or kill time. What did terrorize the government was
not the fact that it had to reimburse a thousand or so train tickets, but
that an idea of politics, which was also an idea of action, ceaselessly
reproduced itself. Sabotage, whether one employs it or rejects it, has
never been an arm of terror, but always an arm of social change. There was
a time when the CGT [France’s main trade union] called for it.

Bankers are responsible for the biggest economic crisis of the last 80
years. This will not fail to cause millions of people to starve. And we
continue to cordially greet our bankers in the street. Our children are
only suspected of causing the delay of a few trains, and for that they
face 20 years in prison.

The most impressive police operation in the last week was not bursting
open doors in balaclavas on a sleeping nine-month-old baby, but rather
convincing people that the desire to change such a perfect world could
only emanate from the heads of the mentally deranged, of powerful
assassins.

When doors slam we feel fear that it is the balaclavas returning.
When they open we dream of seeing our children return.

the parents of Bertrand, Mathieu, Elsa, Aria and Yldune

PS : we salute and offer our thanks to the inhabitants of Tarnac who
prefer to believe what they live than what they see on TV.

DROP THE CHARGE OF CRIMINAL ASSOCIATION FOR THE PURPOSES OF TERRORIST
ACTIVITY AND IMMEDIATELY RELEASE ALL THE INDICTED

[Sasha]

suport comite: http://www.soutien11novembre.org/

[Sasha]

Communique concerning this morning's arrest.

This morning at 6:30 am,[1] the Anti-Terrorist Police (SDAT) allowed themselves to undertake a new arrest among those "close" to the indicted. Judge Fragnoli almost brought us to tears last week when he boasted in the pages of Liberation that he would proceed in this case with all the "humanity" of which he is capable. This morning he again once showed the finesse that we have come to recognize in him: 15 wise-asses from the SDAT to break down the door and aim their weapons at two children, 4 and 6 years old, in their beds. All that just to question someone who had already been arrested on 11 November 2008, based upon the most fantastic elements of the case, which they have had in their possession from the very first day.

Obviously we understand what is at work here. While the two central elements in their accusations, namely the fabrications concerning Julien and Yildune and the witness "X," have largely been sewpt away by recent revelations, the sad clowns continue their flight ahead, using pretexts that are always more laughable to create a diversion. One notes that it was in fact Judge Fragnoli himself who declared to the journalists that he would not make a reconstruction of the so-called night of sabotage. Thus, he definitively seems to what to cover up what each day a little more seems to have been fakes created by the SDAT. We wish him good luck; he'll need it.


In this pathetic attempt at diversion we once more see what anti-terrorism permits and permits itself. As when, during the last two waves of arrests, friends of the indicted were arrested in broad daylight on the street and forced to submit to 96 hours of observation and this pressure and humiliation. This democracy maintains itself any way it can.

We interpret this new attempt at intimidation as the only response that Mr Ragnoli could find to the collapse of his case. We bet that the weeks to come will permit us to definitively have done with this farce, and his career.

Soutiens au inculpes du 11 November
24 November 2009

[1] Translator's note: The day before several lawyers for the suspects and various Left legislators were to speak in front of the National Assembly. In a communique, they protested against the use of anti-terrorist laws that have been "diverted against political activists."

(Translated by NOT BORED! 24 November 2009.)