In response to "Communism has not killed a 100 million"..

[Drace]

Rapid industrialization and Collectivization of agriculture in the USSR and PRC cost most of the lives in those accurate figures. Are you aware the Stalin told Churchill at the Potsdam Conference that Collectivization was more "stressful" than World War II? It is a well known fact that between 6 -10 million Ukranians alone died in that effort. Stalin, during the Great Terror, executed 1,000 prisoners a week. The Tsar, God Save Him, had executed 3,000 prisoners from the 1905 revolution to the 1917 revolution. A Russian Peasant had more property rights before the 1865 freeing of the Serfs than he did in 1935 under Stalin. He at least owned his crops and his livestock. Stalin was so good at what he did that a Russian Peasant had an income 10 times greater in 1913 then he did in 1935.

The facts come from a long reading of modern European History specializing in Russia. You will find that most Russians, if they are at all nostalgic about the USSR will remember it only because they were a great power. Not because of anything that the Communist Party did.

China I can not even start on. Suffice to say that if you are unaware of the body count in the Great Leap Forward where peasants were forced into cannibalism and the Cultural Revolution where, like the Great Terror except worse, literally thousands were murdered weekly for years.

Also, Cambodia...do you deny the horror of that Communist countries murder of 25% of its own nation?

I would love to poll the millions of dead and ask them if it was worth the West having an 8 hour work day or the weekend off. Because neither of those occurred in Communist countries.

It is sad that people like you can even contemplate wanting to give these monsters any honor.

Would there be a reasonable reply?

[Plagueround]

I personally have no desire to honor any of these men, however it appears this person is getting their numbers from a rather biased source. Certainly the "God save him" remark about the Tsar reveals most of what they're presenting is anti-communist propaganda, as they completely ignore the Tsar's well known brutality. If they're relying on the Black Book, they should know that even some of the authors now consider their numbers impossible.

There are plenty of resources around to combat this kind of broad attack on communism, but I'm of the opinion that a complete perversion of communist ideals (which some would argue Mao and Stalin were guilty of, almost all would agree Pol Pot certainly was) doesn't invalidate today's struggle. Out of curiousity, where is this quote from?

[Sasha]

all excelent points, but are any of them an excuse for mass murder and in the case of pol pot and stalin even genocide?
i like highways... not realy an exuse for the holocaust though.

[Sasha]

Main Entry: geno·cide
Pronunciation: 'jen-&-"sId
Function: noun
: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or culturalgroup

the deportation of every single member of an racial, political or cultural group to siberia without enough food or shelter and leaving them their to die by the millions is IMO an deliberate and systematic destruction of that group i.e. genocidal in my dictionary.

and you have no idea how many time i usualy spend atacking "the bosses", like i said in the DPRK tread, i'm at home with the flu so i cant do much else than post on fora on this moment. And atacking communism? didn't i already explain i that i don't even consider stalinsim communism?
and i find it quite important to batle authoritaritarism in the leftist movement because a. its the most important aspect of my political believes and b. i rather not get shot in the back when the revolution comes.

and even here on revleft the mayority of my time i spend in the dutch, discrimnation and anti-fascism sections, not places with an lot of atacking on stalinist going on there because they don't post there, it just happend someone pulled my bells in these two threads. don't believe me? check my almost 400 posts, conterary to what you seem to believe, 99.9% is not about you...

and yeah, i do find all stalinists dangerous idiots but that is nothing personal ;)

[redguard2009]

All of these points have been refuted so many times, it's not really worth the effort to do it again for some pompous idiot.

[Sasha]

A revolutionary faces repression from the capitalist state in the here and now. It's probably a better idea to "battle" that.

[sarcasm mode] yeah i know, but i found out that that teargas is a bummer to get out of your clothes, not to speak of what those bruises of the police batons and scars of fights with nazi's where doing to my modeling career. so i decided i rather sit on an internet forum and pick on the stalinsit all day [sarcasm mode]

don't wory, as soon as i'm over the flu i'll go back baiting cops and ministers and post here far less.....

[ashaman1324]

makes me wonder... how many have the enemies of communism killed?
imperialism, fascism, capitalism.
without any trace of a doubt, more than 100million.

[Sasha]

like i asked before, is that an excuse? :confused:

[Hiero]

Yeah, that's the definition. It's not what happened in the USSR though.

Actually I don't think it is. Political groups are usually excluded. I know class is excluded because the USSR, alongside the UK and the USA was a major force in defining genocide in the UN. If it is included then the destruction of the Nazi Party is genocide. Why would the allies create a definition of a crime that could later on have them charged for that same crime.

When we are talking about genocide we are talking about the destruction of physical (race) and cultural similarities that link people together.

If your going to claim genocide we really need the UN definition, not some internet dictionary. It is not just something you can throw around.

[politics student]

like i asked before, is that an excuse? :confused:

Its all just history we should learn from past mistakes and move on.

[Valeofruin]

Prove it.

[jake williams]

Actually I don't think it is. Political groups are usually excluded. I know class is excluded because the USSR, alongside the UK and the USA was a major force in defining genocide in the UN. If it is included then the destruction of the Nazi Party is genocide. Why would the allies create a definition of a crime that could later on have them charged for that same crime.

When we are talking about genocide we are talking about the destruction of physical (race) and cultural similarities that link people together.

If your going to claim genocide we really need the UN definition, not some internet dictionary. It is not just something you can throw around.
Actually there's some history to the debate over the term. Originally political groups were set to be included, but I think it was actually Stalin who nixed that. Some academics and others however still used the definition which includes political groups.

The UN definition though, as well as a number of others, are seriously fraught. I don't know if anyone heard about the story where some religious sect in Texas was abusing their children effectively because of their religion, I think it was an early marriage thing, and the state wanted to take the children away, and the sect argued that taking children away from a group because of religious affiliation is genocide - which under the definition, a literalist reading at very least, it is.

[Sasha]

maybe not completly on topic but what about the katyn-massacres?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

ok, its not yet 100 milion but coldly and systametic executing 20.000 poles is a serious start.

[chegitz guevara]

They were Army officers. Cry me a river.

[chegitz guevara]

Would there be a reasonable reply?

First off, the facts are wrong. According to the information available from the Soviet archives, in all of the USSR, there were only 3.3 million deaths above the average during the years of 1932-34. Of those, the vast majority of death in Ukraine were in Eastern Ukraine, an area that was largely settled by Russians under Catherine the Great (the former inhabitants were Turks and Mongols). While most deaths were in the Ukraine, almost half were in the Don basin, east of the Ukraine, which is also a largely Russian region. So, most of those who died in the Holodomor were, in fact, Russian. Which in no way excuses the ham handed and bureaucratic response (or rather, lack of response).

However, the real argument isn't to dispute numbers, but to point out that in the capitalist world, more people people die from capitalism in a single decade than all of the people who died before their time in the "Communist" world over the whole period that the USSR existed. The number of children alone who die in the capitalist world under the age of five exceeds eleven million people a year. These are easily preventable deaths, and if there were a profit to be made saving them, they'd be saved. Since there isn't, they are allowed to perish. That doesn't begin to include all the other myriad ways capitalism kills. We're just talking about children under the age of five, 110 million in a decade, more than all the human beings claimed to have been killed in the Black Book of Communism.

Can there be any greater indictment of capitalism?

[politics student]

First off, the facts are wrong. According to the information available from the Soviet archives, in all of the USSR, there were only 3.3 million deaths above the average during the years of 1932-34. Of those, the vast majority of death in Ukraine were in Eastern Ukraine, an area that was largely settled by Russians under Catherine the Great (the former inhabitants were Turks and Mongols). While most deaths were in the Ukraine, almost half were in the Don basin, east of the Ukraine, which is also a largely Russian region. So, most of those who died in the Holodomor were, in fact, Russian. Which in no way excuses the ham handed and bureaucratic response (or rather, lack of response).

However, the real argument isn't to dispute numbers, but to point out that in the capitalist world, more people people die from capitalism in a single decade than all of the people who died before their time in the "Communist" world over the whole period that the USSR existed. The number of children alone who die in the capitalist world under the age of five exceeds eleven million people a year. These are easily preventable deaths, and if there were a profit to be made saving them, they'd be saved. Since there isn't, they are allowed to perish. That doesn't begin to include all the other myriad ways capitalism kills. We're just talking about children under the age of five, 110 million in a decade, more than all the human beings claimed to have been killed in the Black Book of Communism.

Can there be any greater indictment of capitalism?

According to UNICEF, 26,500-30,000 children die each day due to poverty

If that statistic is close to accurate then with in 10 years capitalism would kill 100 million children. What a great thing global capitalism is... :rolleyes:

[Sasha]

They were Army officers. Cry me a river.

and? massmurder is massmurder or do you think its o.k. to excecute 20.000 prisoners from an country you invaded and illegaly occupied ?

oh wait, they were offcourse "liberators spreading socialism"...
now please replace socialism from freedom and democracy and poland for iraq and go fuck yourself.

we are suposed to be the good guys (M/F) remember? we shoot people in batle if forced too, not in the back, 400 a night for weeks on end and bury them secretly in massgraves in the woods, thats not good guy material that is just wrong.

i gues its good that there were not more polish officers prisonar of war, that amount of bullits would have been to costly for the glorious homeland and not to mention inefficient and they would have had to find a more (cost)effective way of methodicly killing masses of people, well i guess stalins friends that occupied the other half of poland had some good ideas about how to do that....

cry me a river? go hide yourself in shame for condononing this you mean....

[el_chavista]

"The one hundred million deads" is a world wide propagandistic campaign to wash the face and bloody hands of imperial aggressions, to justify the murdering, torture and repression of communists in the "free world".

For instance, Luis Posada Carriles, a terrorist bound to Bush family, tortured even a 2 months old baby to oblige her mother to betray her guerrilla husband when Posada was at charge of the political police in Venezuela.

In some countries that propaganda comes together with an addendum about the violations of German women by the Soviet soldiers in 1945.

[chegitz guevara]

and? massmurder is massmurder or do you think its o.k. to excecute 20.000 prisoners from an country you invaded and illegaly occupied ?

oh wait, they were offcourse "liberators spreading socialism"...
now please replace socialism from freedom and democracy and poland for iraq and go fuck yourself.

we are suposed to be the good guys (M/F) remember? we shoot people in batle if forced too, not in the back, 400 a night for weeks on end and bury them secretly in massgraves in the woods, thats not good guy material that is just wrong.

i gues its good that there were not more polish officers prisonar of war, that amount of bullits would have been to costly for the glorious homeland and not to mention inefficient and they would have had to find a more (cost)effective way of methodicly killing masses of people, well i guess stalins friends that occupied the other half of poland had some good ideas about how to do that....

cry me a river? go hide yourself in shame for condononing this you mean....

Wah, wah, wah, the poor pigs.

[PRC-UTE]

and? massmurder is massmurder or do you think its o.k. to excecute 20.000 prisoners from an country you invaded and illegaly occupied ?

cry me a river? go hide yourself in shame for condononing this you mean....

Not that I'm attempting to justify this act, but I find your response odd. Do you imagine that these 20,000 were vegan pacifists?

[Sasha]

no, and niether am i.
like i have said, offcourse people die in batle, and i can understand that in war situations atroceties happen (like in spanish revolution where also on the left side stuff hapend what we moraly should'nt condone but understand in the light of the situation) but coldly and systematicly killing of 1000's of prisoners, so people who only pose an hypothetical and not an direct threat, places you firmly in the wrong section for me.
allthough i am an abolishment supporter (i dont believe in punnishment as present in the capatalist prisson system) and i'm an fierce oponent of the death penalty as an penalty i do believe that you have to protect (a revolutionary) society even if it means excecuting certain individuals (uncurable psychopaths)
and while i think its not an efficient tactic most of the thime i do believe in the so called "propaganda of the deed"
but massmurdering bougois prissonars of war is just simply wrong IMO.

let alone the fact that the whole invasion of poland and the molotov-ribbentrop pact where it was part of was already sommething despicibale to begin with.

[Gleb]

They were Army officers. Cry me a river.

http://heninen.net/sandarmoh/english.htm
http://heninen.net/punakangas/english.htm

I guess they all were fascists and plotters against the Mighty Motherland, too.

[chegitz guevara]

http://heninen.net/sandarmoh/english.htm
http://heninen.net/punakangas/english.htm

I guess they all were fascists and plotters against the Mighty Motherland, too.

That has what to do with military officers of the Polish dictatorship? Oh, right nothing. You're just trying a strawman.

[Gleb]

That has what to do with military officers of the Polish dictatorship? Oh, right nothing. You're just trying a strawman.

Nothing to do with military officers of the Polish dictatorship, that's wasn't even my point to begin with. But something to do with the very nature of Stalinist dictatorship and a fine example among the great many atrocities committed by the regime.

And I for one really care if they were military officers or not, that doesn't make them any less human beings. We are talking about Pilsudski's Poland, sure, I'm sure there was lots of criminals among the executed ones but to say that they all or even most of them deserved that - that's ridiculous.
No matter what they were and what kind of values these officers represented - organized massacre like this is a crime of unacceptable nature.
It's one of the most disgusting things of the Stalinist regime and even the contemporary "anti-revisionist" movement; they value peoples' right to life according to their political opinions. Most of them really don't give a shit about Stalin's purging operations directed towards left and right wing opposition during the 1930's - why should they, they were evil child-eating revisionists, prostituting the Marxist gospel!

[chegitz guevara]

Nothing to do with military officers of the Polish dictatorship, that's wasn't even my point to begin with. But something to do with the very nature of Stalinist dictatorship and a fine example among the great many atrocities committed by the regime.

So what the hell does that have to do with me or anything I've written? In other words, it's just a strawman. I don't condemn the Kaytin massacres, so suddenly I'm a defender of Stalinism and the gulags? Sorry, but the fate of twenty thousand officer pigs of a military dictatorship is very low on my gives-a-shit list. Instead of trying to smear me with something I haven't done, i.e., supporting Stalinism, why not try and deal with the issue.

[Agathon]

Don't believe Chegitz!!! He's a faker! He owns a plantation and beats his workers... to death!!

Howdy Che, I should have known you would post here. ;)

[chegitz guevara]

Get back to work or I'll beat you some more.

[JacobVardy]

On the crimes of capitalism, Chomsky's words on Amartay Sen cab be found here spectrezine.org/global/chomsky


Amartay Sen himself is interesting. He won the Nobel prize for economics but don't hold that against him. In Poverty and Famines; An Essay on Entitlement and Deprivation (1981) he argued that modern famines are not a result of food scarcity but of the inability of the poor to buy food. He also did some simple calculations that suggest that, in the post war period, deaths from hunger were greater in capitalist India than communist China.


Cambodia is also interesting. In A Problem from Hell by Samatha Power, although otherwise very favourable to the US, she does point out that the Khomer Rouge we're back by the US and that it was the US bombing of Cambodian farm lands that made the evacuation of the cities necessary.


On the Katyn massacrre, whilst there were civilians included, it was the liquidation of the polish aristocratic class. Bad as that is, I find it hard to mourn them.