take the fight to them?

[ashaman1324]

why dont we look at fascist organization's web sites and debate them there?
i wont name names because i got in trouble for such doing so a few days ago...
but if we were to show the flaws and loopholes in fascism at the groups site the worst they can do is not show our posts right? we cant lose.
what are your thoughts?

[Melbourne Lefty]

I dont think its such a good idea.

They see the world in totally different ways to us, aside from getting practise in debating skills I doubt it would have much benefits.

[Plagueround]

It isn't worth our time. We've had waves of anti-communist crusades on revleft. Can you recall anyone who "switched" sides after hearing the same arguments over and over? As much as I don't like the views of people on such sites, they've heard it all before and aren't likely to yield to our arguments. Do you think someone who's come to the conclusion that fascism is the right thing to do is thinking logically in the first place? ;)

[Holden Caulfield]

i agree this these two guys, its pretty futile, im not going to tell you not to bother, if you're bored you can do whatever you want to fill the time (a few comrades post on the neutral forum UK Debate).

but i think we should engage the workers and the people who are not yet swayed but either ideology rather than try to 'convert' people from openly fascist websites

[Melbourne Lefty]

Do you think someone who's come to the conclusion that fascism is the right thing to do is thinking logically in the first place?


This is actually quite funny because I can just imagine them saying the same thing with positions reversed.

Lifes a trip hey?:lol:

[Sasha]

damn, dont use these kind of easily misinterpreted topic title's.
i thougt someone was proposing smashing up nazi bars and going round the leaders their houses and have good non verbal discussion with them, but its just about posting on strontfront.:(
never mind then...

[RaiseYourVoice]

Well i think its not always bad to debate with fascists. Especially if you are confronted with onces new to their shit. Their Internet forums / sites are all the wrong place though:

- They can end the debate any time they want
- They can delete posts to take your comments out of context
- If they feel uncomfortable they can just switch of the website instead of confronting themselves with arguments
- They get your IP
- There is gonna be way more of them that through all different kinds of arguments at you which you cannot possibly respond to

Yes its a waste of time.

[ashaman1324]

ok.
just curious of your thoughts.
im not having a whole lot of success on the one im trying.
mostly for the problems raiseyourvoice stated.
i think ill be banned in a few days anyway, then ill probably be done.

[rednordman]

Like others on here, i wouldnt worry about it. After all their hearts are tainted anyhow. What i mean is that the only way for these people to 'see the light' is via their own experience and probably not persuasion. After a while (hopefully) they will wake up to the fact that thier hatred of virtually everything, is only going to do permanent damage to their esteme and conscience. After all you wouldnt let, for example, a neo-conservative convert you, would you? Fair play for trying though, but its in vain.

[Melbourne Lefty]

After all their hearts are tainted anyhow


thats sounds scarily religious.

These people are wrong, products of their enviroment. They are not 'lost souls'.

[Holden Caulfield]

These people are wrong, products of their enviroment. They are not 'lost souls'.
true but the ones who are too dilluded to save are usually found on Stromfront, engaging people who support fascist parties like the BNP at community level is the best idea to win over support

[eio]

Only my second posting, got no replies off first, just finding my feet so go easy on me, a fascist is a fascist , nobody else matters all they breed is hate, a futile thought process that in no way gives any positivity, so i say no debate, but if people who are starting to dabble in it and you are aware of it, try your best to steer them away, not in any particular political direction, just away from it. RACIST LIFE =WASTED LIFE

[Frost]

I think it takes a really good set of solid arguments along with a lot of time spent to make it. I've seen both really good and really bad posters on sites like Stormfront.

Some come on with stupid posts full of rhetoric and the same crappy arguments heard a million times. It's just like people that come on RevLeft. You got the "OMGZ y can u lyk communism it killed 100 millon ppl!" just like the far-right get posters that say "yoo Nazis are raceists and stoopid inbreds! WE'r all the same! Cant you see THAT?"

If you really want to 'take it to them', then learn a few lessons off of other posters first. A forum will already have experience dealing with redundant arguments and have all forms of documentation to back themselves up. You just gotta do the same, but better.

[rednordman]

thats sounds scarily religious.

These people are wrong, products of their enviroment. They are not 'lost souls'.
Sorry I could have used a better phrase:D It was just a play on words. What I really meant is that they are very very set in their ways and they see their beliefs as something positive in their lives. I could imagine that it almost is like a faith to some of them. Most of these people obviously have a week resolve, so beliefs like nazism, empower them. Thus, even if you totally hammered them in an arguement, they would still forget it and not abandom them. In fact that could solidify their beliefs even more so. I'd like to offer some impressive solution, but i cannot at this moment.

[Melbourne Lefty]

engaging people who support fascist parties like the BNP at community level is the best idea to win over support

Yup, is there any left group anywhere in the west who is actually looking at what the BNP is doing and saying 'shite, we should be doing that'?

Cos I see them going into the community like the radical groups used to, knocking on doors and canvassing people at election time, building up a network of activists and then publicising the work they do so that others get the impression of unstoppable momentum [when the truth is far more sombre].

so why is there no party or group in my country or in the UK that is doing what they are?:confused:

[redSHARP]

well, it would be more practical to crash the site but we had this thread multiple times!

[EssexRed]

Ok chaps, lets debate! I'm not some thick twat or outcast from society. I'm 40, manager of a dept store and a nazi. I don't hate you people. I don't hate anyone, neither do i consider i'm talking to antis or reds. I'm one man talking others.

Despite our different political views, we have more in common than differences. We both have concerns for the state of our country, we both share the same enemies and each side is prepared to fight for their beliefs. Indeed, our only difference is that we disagree on who our enemies are.

You see, i grew up in a very pleasant country. This was a country with community values, a country where you looked after your own and a country where family values, morality and principles were held in high esteem. This is now a completely different world from the one i grew up in. These values have been replaced by greed and selfishness. Nowhere i go, do i see basic values of honour, loyalty and duty; national socialist values.

The main problem today is that because we're taught to concentrate on greed and the self, hate comes as a natural follower. The young are indoctrinated from the moment they're old enough to understand that national socialism is evil, that national socialists are evil and thus, honour, duty and loyalty are bad things. If people really bothered to find out what national socialism is all about, you'd find that what you've been led to believe is complete rubbish.

Yes, i'll debate with you and i'll do it in a civilised manner. If anyone is offended by honest debate then no doubt i'll be banned. I'm open minded and prepared to listen to arguments but educated argument only.

[Holden Caulfield]

we do not tolerate prejudice here, even if it comes from an educated and civil tounge, so you cannot respond but here is a reply.



These values have been replaced by greed and selfishness.
when have opressive systems not bred such things? there have not been any good old days, we have always been opressed. As long as we are unequal and we are slaves to the bourgeois its makes sense to alot of people to accumilate wealth to protect themselves from the system, they inturn become a part of it.


where you looked after your ownbaseless nostalgia, are you saying that Britian looks after our people are more than it has to in order to stop us from rebelling against the state? Did it look after the Irish under the union? Did it look after the working classes when we lived in slums? Did it look after us when it got us involved in Imperialist Wars and killed our sons? Did it look after us when they killed our industry and smashed the unions?
No

The capitalist system means that if we have too highly inflated standards of living they will simply move to find a cheaper work force somewhere else, so as much as you blame immigrants for our society why not instead blame the companies who in search of profit, kill our industry, hollow out our economy and leave millions on the dole. It is not immigrants, there are enough jobs to go around and then even more to spare, it is the capitalists system. By defending your race, land, blood you are playing into their hands, they have and always will seek divide and 'conquer' us, the working classes.


honourhonour of what, of people or of state? honour of history? Honour is not a virtue, honour is abstract. In my eyes honour is dignity, which the working classes can only have if we seek to be equal and see ourselves as the force in history to make the change. Honour is respect, i respect all people who are respectful, respectful of people and not prejudices, respectful of our culture a culture built on diversity and working class solidarity. Honour is integrity, instead of making scapegoats i have the integrity to face the system which opresses me and say to them i am your equal. I do not hate the bourgeois as a people, they are products of a corrupt system, they can be my equal if willing to be so.



loyalty
loyalty to what, to the state, to the flag, to the queen, to 'our land'? The state opresses us, the flag is a symbol of our division as a class and nothing but the banner they lay over our coffins when then send to to our deaths. The monarchy, and the parliment have for years opressed us, massacred us and sent us to our deaths in their name and it defence of their interests. Our land? Who are 'we' and why is this land ours? Are we Saxons? Normans? Britons? Celts? Aryans? or are we the product of immigration and 'race mixing'! All who are willing to work and to be equal should be welcomed, those who flee opression have always benafitted this land culturally and economically, those who have came here to work built our infrastructure and continue to contribute to our economy.



duty
Duty to what to our race? What has my race given me? It was members of my race who have kept me opressed, who have governened for years and have used my class as faceless labour for their own profit! Duty to defend the country? Were we defending the country in the first or second world war, or in the Iraq War etc? Duty to uphold democratic process? We do not have democracy, we do not have equality and I do not have any duty or sense of duty to work, live or die for the interests of my pay masters and overlords.



hate comes as a natural follower
this is why communists are not the same as nazis, we think all can be equal, the heights of the bourgeois, if willing to have a fair and equal society could be a part of it with no penalty. You think that your race is better or that it needs kept pure and so hate comes as a natural follower, you discriminate against fellow humans on the colour of skin or genetics. We say we are brothers with all those who will call themselves our brothers.

[PostAnarchy]

Well i think its not always bad to debate with fascists. Especially if you are confronted with onces new to their shit. Their Internet forums / sites are all the wrong place though:

- They can end the debate any time they want
- They can delete posts to take your comments out of context
- If they feel uncomfortable they can just switch of the website instead of confronting themselves with arguments
- They get your IP
- There is gonna be way more of them that through all different kinds of arguments at you which you cannot possibly respond to

Yes its a waste of time.


All good reasons that I concur with. Fascists are simply more trouble than their worth!

[Melbourne Lefty]

The more I hear fash talk the more I disagree that they are tools of capitalism.

They are on a whole different track than the capitalists and ourselves, capitalists may have used them in the past but they dont have the same goals.

Fash do not see the world in terms of class. The only class they see is white upper classes screwing over white working classes [a term they use a lot] by importing 'coloured' working class people to undercut them.

Other than the above examples class for them is almost non existant, they see things in terms of RACE.

And if you ignore class completely, if you ignore economics and base your worldview on tribal loyalties, then their position becomes logical.

The whole Jew hating crap that some neo-nazis get into is another deal

[Operator]

I've posted on right wing forums before and generally found that they debate fairly and well, and respect my views.
I do not agree that such actions are futile, to know the oppositions inside out strengthens my own. If anything I've had folk message me saying that it's a breath of fresh air not to read posts from "ignorant left wing nutters" but rather "fairly considered ideas from someone who has thought their ideology through clearly."

In fact, I've introduced folk from all sorts of forums to my own way of thinking by simply putting my views forward politely, respectfully and intelligently.

My two cents.

[Melbourne Lefty]

I've posted on right wing forums before and generally found that they debate fairly and well, and respect my views.
I do not agree that such actions are futile, to know the oppositions inside out strengthens my own. If anything I've had folk message me saying that it's a breath of fresh air not to read posts from "ignorant left wing nutters" but rather "fairly considered ideas from someone who has thought their ideology through clearly."

In fact, I've introduced folk from all sorts of forums to my own way of thinking by simply putting my views forward politely, respectfully and intelligently.

My two cents.

Yeah I have done the same, there are many onservative and even racist forums out there that do respect a good arguement.

But this is Stormfront we are talking about... biggest nuthouse on the planet.

[Operator]

Yeah I have done the same, there are many onservative and even racist forums out there that do respect a good arguement.

But this is Stormfront we are talking about... biggest nuthouse on the planet.

Haha, I don't disagree with you on that. With Stormfront you have to know which posters to take seriously and which to laugh at. The 'sustaining members' are generally fair, and the people with the fewest posts are usually the nutjobs, as are the vocal ones. The quieter ones are the more 'normal', if you will.

[jaffe]

I'm not discussing with neo-nazis, that's because I don't want that their ideas (racism and 'revisionism' etc.) are legitimate topics to discuss. For me such things are not just an opposite opinion.

[Melbourne Lefty]

I'm not discussing with neo-nazis, that's because I don't want that their ideas (racism and 'revisionism' etc.) are legitimate topics to discuss. For me such things are not just an opposite opinion.


Yeah I wouldnt be too keen on talking about Bullshit like holocaust denial.

But an average BNP member wouldnt be talking about that, cos the average BNP member is a racist with fash tendencies, not a full blown fascist.

If the thread was kept to immigration it could be OK. There could even be some common ground, for instance its pretty blindingly obvious that the capitalist class IS supporting mass immigration to the hilt cos it gives them cheap labour.

I have had good luck with that talking to friends with racistish opinions in the past. You give them that and then explain that the answer is not to get rid of the immigrants, but to get rid of the capitalists.

I have commented on BNP blogs before and that sort of approach works wonders. No converts from the BNP ranks but it gets them thinking and sharpens the debating skills.