Healthcare

[Schrödinger's Cat]

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/1508/attachmentkj3.gif (http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/1508/attachmentkj3.gif)


http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/spend.php

[danyboy27]

still, canadian pay those services in taxes, and cubans too, the only difference is the avearge salary of the average cuban and canadian.

you cant use this argument to say that the cuban system is better than the canadian system, simply beccause there is a high disparity in the avearge salary.

i am not sure, but i think that even with a public healthcare system, the us healthcare would still cost a lot per capita, beccause there is simply more american than cuban, wich mean more infrastructure to maintain.
lets not forget that in many indistrualized countries hospital are equipped with many state of the art equipements.

dont get me wrong, i am 100% for the free healthcare, i just think that this graphic is not a valid argument.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

you cant use this argument to say that the cuban system is better than the canadian system, simply beccause there is a high disparity in the avearge salary.I don't think you're aware of a little thing called "currency conversion." I didn't post this for Cuba. Keep in mind the average Norwegian and Swiss is "wealthier" than the average American.


i am not sure, but i think that even with a public healthcare system, the us healthcare would still cost a lot per capita, beccause there is simply more american than cuban, wich mean more infrastructure to maintain.Costing more than Cuba isn't damning. Costing more than Europe, Japan, Singapore, and Canada - with less than spectacular results on life expectancy is damning.

[danyboy27]

I don't think you're aware of a little thing called "currency conversion." I didn't post this for Cuba. Keep in mind the average Norwegian and Swiss is "wealthier" than the average American.

yea and they got a definitively smaller territory and a smaller population, you cant compare.




Costing more than Cuba isn't damning. Costing more than Europe, Japan, Singapore, and Canada - with less than spectacular results on life expectancy is damning.

you dont seem to take in consideration many factor such has bad diet and lack of exercise. I am pretty sure the avearge Cuban eat less and do more manual Labor than the avearge american, combine that with a respectable healthcare system and Bingo.

[Patchd]

Wow, thats interesting. I thought the Scandinavian countries had the highest AL expectancy, guess I was wrong. Anyone got any insight into the Japanese healthcare system without linking to wiki?

[Schrödinger's Cat]

yea and they got a definitively smaller territory and a smaller population, you cant compare.Uh, yes you can. We're comparing national systems to private insurers. Theoretically these private organizations are not geographically restrained.


you dont seem to take in consideration many factor such has bad diet and lack of exercise. I am pretty sure the avearge Cuban eat less and do more manual Labor than the avearge american, combine that with a respectable healthcare system and Bingo.Or, reversely, the average European and Cuban smokes and drinks more.

[Rascolnikova]

you dont seem to take in consideration many factor such has bad diet and lack of exercise. I am pretty sure the avearge Cuban eat less and do more manual Labor than the avearge american, combine that with a respectable healthcare system and Bingo.

Actually, I suspect the reasons Cuba gets such a great cost-benefit on their health care is that

a) they focus on preventative programs. Not only do cubans do manual labor (which they might I don't know) but they are considered to have a right to physical exercise.

Such efficiency does not serve the GNP or the HMOs, so all the incentives run against it on a systemic level.

b) they've made medical training so available that they have one of the highest ratios of doctors to population of anywhere in the world, making up in information what they brutally lack in other resources. Despite the embargo and poverty, they loan doctors out to other countries in times of crisis.


Edit: also, are you implying that any country with a large population can't possibly do as well as a smaller one?

[danyboy27]

Uh, yes you can. We're comparing national systems to private insurers. Theoretically these private organizations are not geographically restrained.

but the facilities where the care are provided are.
anyway you dont need a graphic to show me that free healthcare do a better job and is cheaper for the majority of the population. If every americain would pay a little bit more taxes and no private insurer this would be a win win in their pocket.




Or, reversely, the average European and Cuban smokes and drinks more.
but they do more physical activities, and walk more, there is a culture in europe that favorise the us of buses and bycicle, america got a culture of car and trucks, hell some americans would take their car to go to the store at 3 street from their houses.
dont forget the stress factor, american are definitively more stressed than european or cubans.

healthcare is an important factor in the life expectency in europe and cuba, but that not the only factor to take in consideration, that what i am sayin
EDIT: i dont say that, but you have to admit that smaller countries have the big advantage to be able to take care of most of their people, less logistics required, less paperwork, etc.
there is a ig difference between having to take care of 4 million peoples and 45, definitively a big difference.

[Killfacer]

I'm just suprised by the fact that the UK's spending seems to be about average. I always thought we spent alot more than other countries.

[Dr Mindbender]

This thread makes me want to move to japan more than i already did.


Not to detract anything from the scientific point of the graphic, but perhaps the readilly available nature of guns in the us has as big a part to play in its life expectancy as much as healthcare spending? Just a thought.

Not to mention that for the most part, americans are fat idle bastards (no offence to american members).

[Dr Mindbender]

I'm just suprised by the fact that the UK's spending seems to be about average. I always thought we spent alot more than other countries.

Just goes to show how much room there is for improvement.

Can you imagine if the UK put as much love and spending into the NHS that it does into the MoD?

[Dr Mindbender]

Wow, thats interesting. I thought the Scandinavian countries had the highest AL expectancy, guess I was wrong. Anyone got any insight into the Japanese healthcare system without linking to wiki?

It probably has a lot to do with their fish based diet and regimental bodilly attention.

Prevention is better than cure, as they say.

[RGacky3]

It probably has a lot to do with their fish based diet and regimental bodilly attention.

Prevention is better than cure, as they say.

Thats true, keep in mind, Americans in general, are not known to be the helthiest bunch.

[pusher robot]

Not to detract anything from the scientific point of the graphic, but perhaps the readilly available nature of guns in the us has as big a part to play in its life expectancy as much as healthcare spending? Just a thought.

Probably not a lot. Most gun deaths are in fact suicides and there's scant evidence that many suicidal people give up on suicide for lack of a gun. Gun accidents account for just 0.8% of all accidental deaths.


Not to mention that for the most part, americans are fat idle bastards (no offence to american members).

Sort of.

The top things that Americans do that hurts their life expectencies:
1. Not getting enough exercise (this is different than being idle, though).
2. Eating too many empty calories.
3. Smoking.
4. Driving a lot.

There's also some question as to whether people of African ancestory are genetically predisposed to have smaller life expetencies, so the U.S., having more blacks than many other countries, would be statistically hurt by that as well if that were the case.

[RGacky3]

All of that being said, and it is true, the health care system in America, is deplorable for an industrialized country, we are the only industrialized country where health care is treated the same cut throat capitalistic way phone service and oil is treated. We are the last indsutrialized country that has'nt realized that health care is something a little more than a sellable comodity.

[Dr Mindbender]

There's also some question as to whether people of African ancestory are genetically predisposed to have smaller life expetencies, so the U.S., having more blacks than many other countries, would be statistically hurt by that as well if that were the case.

Most american blacks are descended from pre-capitalist africa. Are there any records that suggest pre-colonial africa had a shorter average life expectancy than europe of the same era?

My understanding was that they were mainly a warrior people, such as the zulu (therefore strong and healthy by lifestyle practice) who for the most part did not engage in the trivial vice that would be the bane of western health.

Thats not to say primitivism[sic] is a good thing, more that capitalism in the african context played a negative influence.

[Killfacer]

Just goes to show how much room there is for improvement.

Can you imagine if the UK put as much love and spending into the NHS that it does into the MoD?


Thats not really true. Our government underfunds the military aswell, remember those soldiers who died because they didn't have that anti fire foam shit? Plus all the troops who keep dying because the MOD doesn't have enough money to buy propererly protected APCs.

[Vendetta]

Pretty nifty graph.

*prepares to drop it on some Republican buddies*

[Anti Freedom]

Or, reversely, the average European and Cuban smokes and drinks more.
Actually, there was a study done on this by some researchers at the University of Iowa, if you adjust for a number of health issues external to the system, the person from the US lives longer than a number of countries.

h ttp://mjperry.blogspot.com/2007/11/beyond-those-health-care-numbers-us.html (combine the h and the ttp if you want to see the site I just want to back up, anything I say not cause problems)

Now, this study might be biased(the site certainly is), however, it is definitely true that it is hard to justify the much higher health care costs on the basis of life expectancy, and I think there is a significant amount of data that argues that US healthcare is wasteful.

[Rascolnikova]

Actually, there was a study done on this by some researchers at the University of Iowa, if you adjust for a number of health issues external to the system, the person from the US lives longer than a number of countries.

h ttp://mjperry.blogspot.com/2007/11/beyond-those-health-care-numbers-us.html (combine the h and the ttp if you want to see the site I just want to back up, anything I say not cause problems)

Now, this study might be biased(the site certainly is), however, it is definitely true that it is hard to justify the much higher health care costs on the basis of life expectancy, and I think there is a significant amount of data that argues that US healthcare is wasteful.


How can health care issues be external to a health care system?

[Anti Freedom]

How can health care issues be external to a health care system?
The system processes people, but people are an external factor. So, if we live in Murderistan, where stabbings are common, then a lower life expectancy is to be expected without regard for how good the doctors are, or anything like that.

In fact, I was explicitly referring to an argument in relation to that notion.

[Rascolnikova]

The system processes people, but people are an external factor. So, if we live in Murderistan, where stabbings are common, then a lower life expectancy is to be expected without regard for how good the doctors are, or anything like that.

In fact, I was explicitly referring to an argument in relation to that notion.

I suppose if a healthcare system needs to function in an environment where there are lots of stabbings (plagues, shootings, land-mine shrapnel, diabetes, whatever), it seems reasonable to me to count how well it is adapted to that environment as internal to the healthcare system.

[Anti Freedom]

I suppose if a healthcare system needs to function in an environment where there are lots of stabbings (plagues, shootings, land-mine shrapnel, diabetes, whatever), it seems reasonable to me to count how well it is adapted to that environment as internal to the healthcare system.
Somewhat. If somebody is pretty well-stabbed, no existing system will be able to save them. In any case, the adjustments made for the US are basically adjustments for fatal injuries, which would be a place where better health care cannot do a *lot* of good. I don't think adjustments were made to lifestyle factors such as obesity and other things, however, I do think it likely that Americans would likely do worse in terms of their health than other nations, thus meaning that we are doing better than the citation gives. However, your issue is a good reason why further analysis is hard to give, because better systems will adapt, and there is no means to measure how much adaptation good systems will give vs bad systems for each specific problem.