"What Should We Do?"

[Millennium]

Several of you, in response to comments I made on the race thread, have asked me what I thought we should do about all this.

When you Leftists talk about reducing class disparities, I'm with you 100%. OK; let's work towards achieving class equality. Let's reduce poverty levels, let's work towards a future with less crime and drug addiction, where CEOs and baseball stars make a reasonable wage rather than the absurd salaries they pull in today. So, how do we do it?

Not environmentally.

Social disparities grow out of biological realities. Culture is an extension of genetics. Entertainment, fine arts, technology, these things are like the flower petals growing off of a plant. You can shuffle the flower petals around, but the plant is what makes them; they are organic, not abstract.

Twin studies have shown pretty conclusively that you can't adopt a child into an upper class home and expect him to behave like an upper class adult when he grows up. For example, an adoptee is twice as likely to become a criminal when he grows up if his biological parents had a history of criminality than if his adoptive parents had a history of criminality. Environmental intervention doesn't solve genetic problems. If you want to solve genetic problems, you need to use eugenics.

No, eugenics doesn't mean genocide, it doesn't mean involuntary sterelization, and it doesn't mean rounding up all the minorities and telling them to stop having kids. All eugenics means is encouraging differential fertility. Thieves, welfare mothers, drug addicts, rapists, and murderers, are having more children than hardworking, law abiding, well educated people right now; we should try to reverse that trend.

I strongly encourage you to read my article at

www.childrenofmillennium.org (http://www.childrenofmillennium.org) --> Strategies

for some good ways of doing that. I have posted this thread specifically because many people have asked me "what do you propose we do?" If you want to know what I propose, it's all right there.

--Mark

[Pete]

Where, politically, do you stand?

[Millennium]

I am a eugenist.

--Mark

[Totalitarian]

I am in favour of voluntary eugenics. With an increasingly dysgenic society, the human race will return to savagery or extinction.

In the Soviet Union, dysgenic policies were employed whereby the most successful Russians (kulaks and suchlike) were murdered. This did not have a positive effect on the Russian gene pool.

[Pete]

So like the people at these places?

http://www.ac-grenoble.fr/heroult/rde/tl/g.../ghislaine7.htm (http://www.ac-grenoble.fr/heroult/rde/tl/ghislaine7.htm)

http://www.hirschfeld.in-berlin.de/institut/ in/reform/reform_04.html

http://www.pro-life.net/sanger/pivot_08.htm

http://www.unclenicks.net/drugs/Eugenics/b...dy_eugenics.htm (http://www.unclenicks.net/drugs/Eugenics/body_eugenics.htm)

[El Che]

I for one consider the type of crap your posting is totaly unacceptable. It`s surreal, like your taking a piss on us making outrageous and viciously racist claims in a very low key and dissimulated manner.

What in the hell is wrong with you?

The underprivileged owe their condition to genetical inferiority!?

Political intolerance in the USA is "40% genetic"!?

What are you a troll? A hatemonger?

Unless I get a satisfactory answer im going to make every effort to have you and your BS banned from this space.

[Millennium]

No, it didn't unfortunately. Nor did the French Revolution. Nor does modern day welfare, which encourages the unintelligent to have many children.

I do think that socialized eugenics have a role to play in solving problems, but I agree with you; voluntary eugenics is my favorite kind of eugenics. My IQ is over 160, I'm otherwise happy and healthy, and I plan on having several children rather than doing what most smart people do - marry late, reproduce little, make tons of money, and waste it all. The trouble is making other intelligent, healthy people realize the how important it is for them to do likewise.

--Mark

[Pete]

No sir, you are an idiot.

[Millennium]

You mean like these people

*Smile*

No, and those sources aren't very accurate.

"Between 1905 and 1972 , in the United States of America , many people were sterilized by force."

As I've already said on this thread, I don't support involuntary sterelization. I consider the practice cruel and inhumane.


"People like H.G. Wells or Churchill were in favour of this ideology , and men like Hitler , Mussolini , or Petain applied this idea during the second world war"

This is an urban legend.


"Ethnocentrism and racism are forms of Eugenism too"

This is pure fantasy; how does being racist improve the gene pool?

Your second link was broken and I was unable to visit it.

Your third link on Margaret Sanger I had little trouble disagreeing with. While most of her ideas were couched in outdated phraseology, and she, as an abortion activist, is more concerned with negative than positive eugenics, you could say I am like her. She was a feminist who felt that eugenics was a way to improve the lot of women, and she was correct about that.

As for the last page you listed, I don't really agree with it. While the things they spoke of there would work, I'm not really a fan of corporations getting involved and I am strongly opposed to forced eugenics.

I would also like you to note that you have found a series of enti-eugenics websites and asked me if they applied to me. I could find several anti-socialist websites and ask if they applied to you, but it wouldn't be very reasonable, would it? Go to www.childrenofmillennium.org . I'm like those people.


I for one consider the type of crap your posting is totaly unacceptable.

Oh? Do you feel that I should not be afforded the right to express my views? Where were you when the other socialists were rallying around free speech at http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...m=22&topic=2390 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=2390)?


It`s surreal, like your taking a piss on us making outrageous and viciously racist claims in a very low key and dissimulated manner.

I'm sure that Christians probably feel the same way about Atheists who politely give reasons for why they don't believe in God.


What in the hell is wrong with you?

I'm an open minded person. I don't believe in heresy, I don't believe in mindlessly following what you are programmed at birth or what everyone else believes just for the sake of fitting in. I think we should find the truth and believing in that. It's amusing to me that you would consider this "something wrong."


The underprivileged owe their condition to genetical inferiority!?

Since I never used that term, I'd appreciate it if you avoided using it yourself. It's inflammatory, and derogatory towards the underprivelaged.


Political intolerance in the USA is "40% genetic"!?

Openness to Experience is a heritable trait, about 40-50% genetic, yes. The higher your Openness rating, the more willing you are to listen to new and different ideas. I would guess that your Openness rating isn't very high, since you find alternative views so frightening.


What are you a troll? A hatemonger?

It's so cute how confused you are! "What is this creature? I've never met a eugenist before. Can I put it into my little 'fascist' box? Will it fit into my 'loudmouth' box? What is this thing??" You can't seem to understand that I am quite simply someone who wants to see a better future, but who isn't satisfied to promote quick fixes that won't work. I used to see things much like you did. Knowledge has changed me. I must seem like a horrible ogre to you, a demon from the abyss, a madman, a monster. They thought the same thing about people who believed the Pope wasn't the voice of God on Earth, and they often burned them to death. I can tolerate your right to your own views and to the expression of those views. Can you display similar tolerance towards me?


Unless I get a satisfactory answer im going to make every effort to have you and your BS banned from this space.

I hope you found this answer helpful.


--Mark

[Pete]

It`s surreal, like your taking a piss on us making outrageous and viciously racist claims in a very low key and dissimulated manner.

I'm sure that Christians probably feel the same way about Atheists who politely give reasons for why they don't believe in God.


Strangely I made a similar comparison about this topic about an hour ago.


So is our intolerance of bullshit genetic? Is your ability to be attracted to this also genetic? Right now I am picturing your friends at CotM laughing at this post.

[Lardlad95]

um...millenium.... two things

1. You say how does being racist support the gene pool? So you've never heard any of the WTOC, KKK< Aryan Nation people talking about white purity? Those groups advocate getting rid of different racists all the time. They obviously dont want other races to reproduce


2. If you say we need to create a better gene pool by getting rid of the less desireable in society then by your arguements that the smartest people are asians...and the most athletic people are black......


Then shouldn't we just get rid of all the other races and just keep interbreeding blacks and asians....

of course we wont use thosecriminal blacks....just the athletes.


Oh and I say this not because I advocate it...but because if we want the best humans possible then we really only need to keep black athletes and asians....


but I'm only going on what you've told me


So what happens is the asian intellegence and the black athleticism work together to make a smart athletic human.


Also to stop the criminals and so on I heard asians are genetically docile or atleast thats what the stereotype is

so that will quell the natural black agression and we will have smart, athletic, calm people


isn't life wonderful

(Edited by Lardlad95 at 4:01 am on June 2, 2003)

[CruelVerdad]

Yes, human have a lot of things we can´t change because they are our esence, maybe we can change some of them or at least try...
Let´s give credit to our IQ!

The world can be changed, for good!

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Millennium, your theory would be somewhat valid if your sources were reliable, now, I am not going to discuss taht with you, I'd rather discuss your theory. The crime-commiting members of society. Let's say that you choose to stereotype (blame the genetics of) black people as 'crime-commiters', so logicaly, in order to end crime, we'd get rid of blacks, is that what your saying? Some blacks in America are not criminals because of their genetics, some are criminals because tehy are undersprivileged and o do not care about themselves enough to obey the law and keep out of jail. Why are there more underprivileged blacks than whites in America? you ask. Because blacks were, from the beggining, rejected from the predominantly white culture that was established long before the blacks were given a chance to integrate into society. The blacks have created for themselves, their own culture and their own communities, set a part from the rest. Today, blacks, nor whites, are interested in integrating into each others' communities. And just because the bourgeois-cented capitalist government create a generation of young balcks that are underfunded by the white government and underpriveleged, you go and blame the whole fucking race. Is this just? No, it is not!

I can even consider far-fetched theories about how to reform our society, but I have no tolerance for racist scum! If I missed something about your crackpot theories, please fill me in, because right now, i am a furious, offended Communist! If I properly understood your idea, then i suggest you get the fuck out here before you rightfuly get the shit flamed out of you!

(Edited by Victorcommie at 11:40 pm on June 1, 2003)

[synthesis]

Millenium, your plan smells like a convoluted plea to give those with money even more of it. That's all it is, at its core - forking over more cash to those who already have it, at the expense of those who don't.

Do you expect socialists, or leftists of any stripe, to actually go along with this?

[Millennium]

Strangely I made a similar comparison about this topic about an hour ago.

That's neat! :)


So is our intolerance of bullshit genetic?

Undoubtedly. To what degree, I'm not sure. Gullibilty hasn't been well studied, although (surprise!) it does correlate negatively with intelligence, just like smoking, delinquency, or (you'll love this) conservatism of social views. Check out The g Factor if you think I'm making this up!


Is your ability to be attracted to this also genetic?

Absolutely! Since I am on the outer edge of the intelligence curve - Psychologists have repeatedly estimated me to be one out of ten thousand or a hundred thousand - I am rather isolated. I don't fall into the same pitfalls as other people. I don't have the same interests or drives. I'm pretty much of an outsider. (See www.childrenofmillennium.org/eugenics/essays/outsiders.htm for an article about what I mean by this.) I see all these errors in logical thinking and limititations in people around me and it's just frustrating. I don't want humans to be this dumb. If you think you're disturbed by the B/W IQ gap, how do you think I feel? It's traumatic enough having to cope with the fact that 100 is average for whites. I've spoken to 100 IQers. They act like they are mentally retarded. I don't like that. To know that the world average is 90 is creepy.

And, well, guess what, intelligence is about 70% hereditary, so my feeling this way is pretty much hereditary. My mother and father and sister and other relatives are all extremely smart. And all of us pretty much agree that IQ should be boosted, although I'm the most vociferous.


Right now I am picturing your friends at CotM laughing at this post.

Uh, I'm almost afraid to ask, but what's CotM? Oh - Church of the Millennium? There is no "church," we aren't much of an organization. My friends at e-l (eugenics labs, a non-religious site) probably would be laughing if I gave them a link to this, but I haven't. We're more interested in discussing the stupidity of Bush and the French language right now, actually.

--Mark

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

while trying to edit my previous post, I accidently seemed to have quoted it, sorry, the mods may delete this.

(Edited by Victorcommie at 11:41 pm on June 1, 2003)

[Pete]

Children of the Millenium. I used an acronym instead of typing it all out. I only realize now there is no 'the' in the title.

You remind me of one of my friends, except she is not racist like you. Only on the fringes of social thought, struggle to contain her mind. She has the same view point that normal people are stupid, and I am one of the few people she talks to.

Now the genetic part.

My mom and my dad both did like hell in school. My older brother had a high 70, my sis mid 80, me low 90 my bro high 70 and my other sis high 70. How is that genetic when my parents ahd low 60s and high 50s?

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from CrazyPete on 4:28 am on June 2, 2003
Children of the Millenium. I used an acronym instead of typing it all out. I only realize now there is no 'the' in the title.

You remind me of one of my friends, except she is not racist like you. Only on the fringes of social thought, struggle to contain her mind. She has the same view point that normal people are stupid, and I am one of the few people she talks to.

Now the genetic part.

My mom and my dad both did like hell in school. My older brother had a high 70, my sis mid 80, me low 90 my bro high 70 and my other sis high 70. How is that genetic when my parents ahd low 60s and high 50s?


what are you white or asian? Cuz that could explain it


If your black then that just goes against everything science has proven.....

by scientific research if your black you should be swining in a tree eating a banana trying to figure out whay that hot orange burning thing is

*sarcasm*

[Pete]

I am a skill ful mix of most of europe, with a large dosage of Scotland and Quebecois. Of course we must remember that Lord Durham said something like: "The canadiens are lower than the irish" so something must be wrong with me!!

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from CrazyPete on 4:39 am on June 2, 2003
I am a skill ful mix of most of europe, with a large dosage of Scotland and Quebecois. Of course we must remember that Lord Durham said something like: "The canadiens are lower than the irish" so something must be wrong with me!!


Well now I just don't know what to believe anymore

[Millennium]

1. You say how does being racist support the gene pool? So you've never heard any of the WTOC, KKK< Aryan Nation people talking about white purity? Those groups advocate getting rid of different racists all the time. They obviously dont want other races to reproduce

True, some groups like that would rather all minorities went to other countries or didn't reproduce. But how would that really help white people? Or black people? Or anybody? Right now, dysgenics is eroding the genetic component to IQ accross the board. Every race is losing ground when it comes to intelligence. The same story exists for "conscientiousness" (although I won't get into that yet) and probably also for health. Making all the black people magically disappear doesn't do much of anything to help anyone. If those racist white people want to avoid dysgenic decline to their own race, they better practice eugenics on themselves rather than worrying so much about the other races!

Then shouldn't we just get rid of all the other races and just keep interbreeding blacks and asians....

OK well, first, how would we do this? Just politely tell the other races to go away? And then breed the Asians and blacks together like thoroughbred horses in cages or something? Humans won't stand for it, which is why I don't promote those sorts of things - that's really not sensible eugenics. But even if we did do that, OK, you now have a race of olive skinned people with slight epicanthic eyefolds who are of middling intelligence, creativity, docility (creativity and docility are actually inverses of one another) athleticism, and so on. You'd basically just have white people who didn't look like white people. To actually improve anything, you'd have to find ways to make the most intelligent, athletic, attractive, etc. people reproduce the most. Doing that doesn't require getting jews and Hispanics and everybody else to go away while you breed the Asians and blacks together. Despite how much I've spoken about it in the "race" thread, race really isn't that much of a concern.

isn't life wonderful

I certainly think so, and I'm glad someone here is listening to me, even if he thinks I'm a nut. :)


Millenium, your plan smells like a convoluted plea to give those with money even more of it. That's all it is, at its core - forking over more cash to those who already have it, at the expense of those who don't.

Actually they have tried doing things like that in places like Singapore; it doesn't work. Think about it; financial incentives don't compell the rich to change their behavior. The truth is that eugenics benefits the underclass more than the upper class for a variety of reasons.

For example, most underclass families have more children than they want. Well, you are aware that kids cost money, right? So, by giving these people widespread access to free birth control, and letting them cut their own pregnancy rates as they desire (around 60% of pregnancies in the underclass are unwanted) they could have more time to devote to work and to relax, and also more money to pay off their bills or spend on recreation and whatnot. Likewise getting the smart people to have more children requires a greater investment of money on their part, so it would make them poorer. That's just one of many ways the class disparity would be decreased.


Let's say that you choose to stereotype (blame the genetics of)

Let's get our language straight. I don't think blacks are inferior as you have implied in the past, and stereotyping has nothing to do with blaming something on genetics.

black people as 'crime-commiters', so logicaly, in order to end crime, we'd get rid of blacks, is that what your saying?

Think about it; do all black people commit crimes? No; if they did, it would be pretty obvious. Crime is a much bigger problem in the African American community, granted, but most of the crime victims are themselves black. These are the people who actually stand to benefit most from eugenics; people living in poor, crime riddled areas. If we got rid of everybvody who is a criminal - and I'm not advocating this, only that we find a way to reduce their fertility - then you'd see fewer African Americans. But you'd also see fewer European Americans like me. Why target by race when it's easier, and far more just, to target by behavior?

And just because the black communities craete a generation taht is underfunded by the white government and underpriveleged, you go and blame the whole fucking race. Is this just? No, it is not!

Underfunded? You're telling me that black people aren't doing so well because white people haven't given them enough of their own money? Look, if you really think that, you can argue with me about it in the race thread, but you've got a terribly uphill battle waiting for you.

I can even consider far-fetched theories about how to reform our society, but I have no tolerance for racist scum!

Well, I'll pass that along to any racist scum I meet.

(By the way, I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I missed your last post; I try to reply to everybody and I also try to give it a little thought, so sometimes while I'm typing other people respond.)

--Mark

[El Che]

"The underprivileged owe their condition to genetical inferiority!?

Political intolerance in the USA is "40% genetic"!?"

You answer affirmatively to both questions. The paternalism you display answering the first question quoted above is sickening. The only thing "inflammatory, and derogatory" is your agenda.

You can try to masquerade your self in scientific, rational pose if you wish but you don`t fool anyone. Now and again you betray (like when you make claims as you`ve made in answering the two questions quoted above) the true nature of your thinking and beliefs. Stick to statistics on penis inches, Millennium.

What explains the poverty of some and wealth of others is Capitalism, Imperialism and everything inbetween. The political and socio-economic realities, the education populations have access to, thats what explains racial differences in wealth distribution.

Cultural and educational factors largely explain the head strong nationalism which I believe is prevalent in the US. The politics in the US are as superficial (just look at Bush) as they come and the population at large lacks a healthy dose of critical thinking.

I have zero tolerance for your particular type of ignorance, Mark. Your delusions wont stand here just as they don`t stand in the scientific community or in society.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Millennium on 4:51 am on June 2, 2003

1. You say how does being racist support the gene pool? So you've never heard any of the WTOC, KKK< Aryan Nation people talking about white purity? Those groups advocate getting rid of different racists all the time. They obviously dont want other races to reproduce

True, some groups like that would rather all minorities went to other countries or didn't reproduce. But how would that really help white people? Or black people? Or anybody? Right now, dysgenics is eroding the genetic component to IQ accross the board. Every race is losing ground when it comes to intelligence. The same story exists for "conscientiousness" (although I won't get into that yet) and probably also for health. Making all the black people magically disappear doesn't do much of anything to help anyone. If those racist white people want to avoid dysgenic decline to their own race, they better practice eugenics on themselves rather than worrying so much about the other races!

Then shouldn't we just get rid of all the other races and just keep interbreeding blacks and asians....

OK well, first, how would we do this? Just politely tell the other races to go away? And then breed the Asians and blacks together like thoroughbred horses in cages or something? Humans won't stand for it, which is why I don't promote those sorts of things - that's really not sensible eugenics. But even if we did do that, OK, you now have a race of olive skinned people with slight epicanthic eyefolds who are of middling intelligence, creativity, docility (creativity and docility are actually inverses of one another) athleticism, and so on. You'd basically just have white people who didn't look like white people. To actually improve anything, you'd have to find ways to make the most intelligent, athletic, attractive, etc. people reproduce the most. Doing that doesn't require getting jews and Hispanics and everybody else to go away while you breed the Asians and blacks together. Despite how much I've spoken about it in the "race" thread, race really isn't that much of a concern.

isn't life wonderful

I certainly think so, and I'm glad someone here is listening to me, even if he thinks I'm a nut. :)


Millenium, your plan smells like a convoluted plea to give those with money even more of it. That's all it is, at its core - forking over more cash to those who already have it, at the expense of those who don't.

Actually they have tried doing things like that in places like Singapore; it doesn't work. Think about it; financial incentives don't compell the rich to change their behavior. The truth is that eugenics benefits the underclass more than the upper class for a variety of reasons.

For example, most underclass families have more children than they want. Well, you are aware that kids cost money, right? So, by giving these people widespread access to free birth control, and letting them cut their own pregnancy rates as they desire (around 60% of pregnancies in the underclass are unwanted) they could have more time to devote to work and to relax, and also more money to pay off their bills or spend on recreation and whatnot. Likewise getting the smart people to have more children requires a greater investment of money on their part, so it would make them poorer. That's just one of many ways the class disparity would be decreased.


Let's say that you choose to stereotype (blame the genetics of)

Let's get our language straight. I don't think blacks are inferior as you have implied in the past, and stereotyping has nothing to do with blaming something on genetics.

black people as 'crime-commiters', so logicaly, in order to end crime, we'd get rid of blacks, is that what your saying?

Think about it; do all black people commit crimes? No; if they did, it would be pretty obvious. Crime is a much bigger problem in the African American community, granted, but most of the crime victims are themselves black. These are the people who actually stand to benefit most from eugenics; people living in poor, crime riddled areas. If we got rid of everybvody who is a criminal - and I'm not advocating this, only that we find a way to reduce their fertility - then you'd see fewer African Americans. But you'd also see fewer European Americans like me. Why target by race when it's easier, and far more just, to target by behavior?

And just because the black communities craete a generation taht is underfunded by the white government and underpriveleged, you go and blame the whole fucking race. Is this just? No, it is not!

Underfunded? You're telling me that black people aren't doing so well because white people haven't given them enough of their own money? Look, if you really think that, you can argue with me about it in the race thread, but you've got a terribly uphill battle waiting for you.

I can even consider far-fetched theories about how to reform our society, but I have no tolerance for racist scum!

Well, I'll pass that along to any racist scum I meet.

(By the way, I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I missed your last post; I try to reply to everybody and I also try to give it a little thought, so sometimes while I'm typing other people respond.)

--Mark



Actually millineum I was joking I was no where near serious...I'm content with our other disscussion.


The only thing I have a problem with is you saying that they would be midly creative.


Black people are very creative, they created jazz, blues, rock and roll, hip-hop, and country music stemmed from blues.

Blacks are also gifted writers Langston hughes, Walter mosley, maya Angelou, James Baldwin, etc.

Or just look at acient African Sculpture..I'm sure just searching on the internet you can fined some


so besides that I really could care less about this subject(no offense)

because honestly you can never get rid of "bad" people no matter what their race is

[Millennium]

You remind me of one of my friends, except she is not racist like you.

Well, that's neat, except for the fact that I'm really not a racist.

My mom and my dad both did like hell in school. My older brother had a high 70, my sis mid 80, me low 90 my bro high 70 and my other sis high 70. How is that genetic when my parents ahd low 60s and high 50s?

Do you want the short answer or the long answer? The short answer is that this is ordinary "regression to the mean." As a result of the way genes and environments get shuffled around, brilliant people tend to have kids who are just smart, and disabled people tend to have kids who are just unintelligent.

Without getting too deep into it, since IQ is 70% heritable, you can expect your parents to pass 70% of their IQ differential onto their children. Your parents' IQs are around 60, you say? That's 40 points away from 100. 70% of 40 is 28, so we'd expect you guys to have IQs around 28 points below the average for your ethnicity. 100 - 28 is 72, so that's what I'd expect your parent's children to be. *Scrolls up* Well in consideration for the way you and your siblings turned out, that was a pretty accurate calculation.

I hope that made sense to everybody; I can go over it in more detail if you're interested.

--Mark

[Millennium]

You answer affirmatively to both questions. The paternalism you display answering the first question quoted above is sickening.

How was this paternalistic? "Oh? Do you feel that I should not be afforded the right to express my views? Where were you when the other socialists were rallying around free speech at http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...pic=2390?" (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=2390?") Oh I'm sorry, you meant patronizing. Well, I certainly don't think very highly of you, no.


I have zero tolerance for your particular type of ignorance, Mark. Your delusions wont stand here just as they don`t stand in the scientific community or in society.

Hahaha! Well, you can try to argue with me and show how I'm wrong (good luck) or you can follow through with your initial threat and have me banned. What a wonderful message that will send to all of the other socialists on this board. "Freedom of speech? What's that? We only tolerate other socilists like ourselves. And boo for the evil Cappies for being intolerant and not listening to us!"

Your intolerance makes me laugh.


Black people are very creative

No, I agree with you; I'm sorry if I gave the impression to the contrary; blacks are probably the most creative ethnicity. But if Asians are the least, then by crossing them you'd get, well, average.

--Mark

(Edited by Millennium at 5:12 am on June 2, 2003)

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Millennium on 5:10 am on June 2, 2003
You answer affirmatively to both questions. The paternalism you display answering the first question quoted above is sickening.

How was this paternalistic? "Oh? Do you feel that I should not be afforded the right to express my views? Where were you when the other socialists were rallying around free speech at http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...pic=2390?" (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=2390?") Oh I'm sorry, you meant patronizing. Well, I certainly don't think very highly of you, no.


I have zero tolerance for your particular type of ignorance, Mark. Your delusions wont stand here just as they don`t stand in the scientific community or in society.

Hahaha! Well, you can try to argue with me and show how I'm wrong (good luck) or you can follow through with your initial threat and have me banned. What a wonderful message that will send to all of the other socialists on this board. "Freedom of speech? What's that? We only tolerate other socilists like ourselves. And boo for the evil Cappies for being intolerant and not listening to us!"

Your intolerance makes me laugh.


Black people are very creative

No, I agree with you; I'm sorry if I gave the impression to the contrary; blacks are probably the most creative ethnicity. But if Asians are the least, then by crossing them you'd get, well, average.

--Mark

(Edited by Millennium at 5:12 am on June 2, 2003)


Do you mean creative artistically or logically?

[Millennium]

I can't make the distinction. What exactly is logical creativity? Blacks are good at improvization (the end of MLK's "I have a Dream" was improvized, or so I heard) and expression (consider musical performance and so on). They are more likely to "think outside the box" and come up with new ways of thinking and doing things.

But are you sure you're even interested in discussing race? This isn't the race thread.

--Mark

[El Che]

The underprivileged owe their condition to genetical inferiority!?

Since I never used that term, I'd appreciate it if you avoided using it yourself. It's inflammatory, and derogatory towards the underprivelaged.

That is what I consider patronizing. They aren`t inferior they are merely different... Right?

You can go on about "freedom of speech" all you want, it doesn`t bother me in the least. Freedom of speech is not a right you possess here.

Instead what you should do is answer my points and show us how you are not a racist scumbag after all. That is your only line of defense. Good luck.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from Millennium on 5:21 am on June 2, 2003
I can't make the distinction. What exactly is logical creativity? Blacks are good at improvization (the end of MLK's "I have a Dream" was improvized, or so I heard) and expression (consider musical performance and so on). They are more likely to "think outside the box" and come up with new ways of thinking and doing things.

But are you sure you're even interested in discussing race? This isn't the race thread.

--Mark



logical ie, math and science, figuring out new ways to develop things


and you are right I don't want to disscuss race anymore.......I was just wondering

[Millennium]

Instead what you should do is answer my points and show us how you are not a racist scumbag after all.

I don't have to defend myself. Other people with more tolerance than you have already done so:

Originally posted by AK47:

Excuse me... but to all those who called him a racist he has not posted a racst remark yet. He has posted that the average IQ of an easetern asian is higher than a white persons, and a white persons is on average higher than a black persons. If he was a racist, he would have hardly stated that an eastern asian person has an average IQ which is higher than a white persons would he?

He also pointed ut that physically black people are on average more physically able than white people. If he was a racist he most certaily would not have said that.

I have been nothing but civilized throughout my brief stay on this board. I have been sensetive to people of all ethnicities and political persuasions, as my running dialouge with LardLad shows. Let me be frank with you: I do think blacks and Asians aren't superior or inferior, and are just different, because they excell at different things. Even towards posters like Drake I don't feel any real dislike; if anything Drake seems like an intelligent poster but I didn't want to have to deal with the way he was acting. Towards you, however, I feel nothing but contempt.

It is you who are as intolerant as any racist. You said it yourself in so many words! It is you who are narrow minded and lacking in understanding, since I have repeatedly demonstrated myself not to be a racist, and you persisted in your belief that I was. It is you who are everything the other socialists strive and struggle against, every day they try to make their ideas heard but are shouted down by hordes of intolerant conservatives.

I would love to see you get me banned. Strike a blow for narrow minded intolerance! Show us all how truly unreasonable you are!

Just remember:

When you do, it will be the symbolic death of everything your comrades here are fighting for, because if leftists aren't tolerant enough to consider opposing views, you have no chance of ever convincing the rightists to open their minds and listen to your ideas.

I'm going offline, now, but I'll be back tomorrow. I'm sure that everyone else is as interested as I am to see whether you will manage to get me banned.

--Mark

[Exploited Class]

Don't really care that you are going to play the victim on getting banned.

There is intolerance then there is just don't want it here.

This isn't a recruitment board for Eugenics.

[El Che]

Well first off, I dont know why this thread was locked but I`m unlocking it so I can reply and defend my self.
----

Millennium,

I don`t give a damn what you feel for me, I don`t give a damn how civilized and polite you are or have been.

You, as I see it, are making racist proclamations and therefore deserve nothing but my sharpest comments. That is the only issue here and we should stick to that.

When you say that the lower classes, the criminals, the rapists, etc, are as they are for primarily racial or genetic reasons you`re being a racist if I ever saw one. And whats more, you`re lying.

Such vile rhetoric. Such dangerous and utterly untrue conclusions you are trying to validate here. I can just picture the extreme right having a field day them. Why do black minorities commit so much crime? Because they are genetically predisposed towards crime! Thats brilliant, really.

I can not in the face of such ideas and rhetoric remain emotionally impassive and indifferent. Perhaps I am at fault here, for not being the stone cold rational debater, but so be it. Your way of explaining the world is, in addition to being false and dangerous, aint human in nature. It puts people into categories, though you desperately try to avoid giving this away.

As for your banning, issue which you now try to make central, I have little influence. Just my one vote, same as everybody else. Therefore, if you wish to oppose my wish of having you banned, all you have to do is convince the majority that you are right and I am wrong. What more could you possibly ask for?

(Edited by El Che at 8:55 am on June 2, 2003)

[Jarvis Cocker]

I concur!
Eugenics has, for obvious reasons, earned a gruesome stigma.
Millennium is not advocating the systematic extermination of the “Untermensch,”
Just as you Socialists are not advocating the equal dispersion of misery…
Don’t be so impulsive to send him to the gulags.
Stigmas aside,
Millennium’s intentions are decent...
his means, however, are flawed.


There are myriad scientific studies
that indicate neuropharmacological abnormalities in violent offenders.
Genetic influences are a reality and can be mediated…perhaps through eugenics.
The heritable tendency to behave in a particular way provides important implications for criminology, etc.
Though this correlation between genetics and behaviour is convincing,
It is not an end in itself.
Eating Patterns also affect behaviour.
Reference Ghost Writer’s thread on Pop music to see how classical music can help accelerate cognitive development, while too much television will retard it.
You are a fool to undermine the role social influences harvest over people’s behavioural patterns.
Genetics is one problem,
but it doesn’t nearly stop at that.
Personally, as an advocate of liberty more so then superhumans,
I feel no man, state, etc. should boast control over a women’s womb.

You give idiots the right to bare speech...
they will produce stupid things to say.
The right to reproduction is no different.

Intolorance is intolerance…
From the meekest example to the most outrageous.

If people are genetically predetermined to be criminals,
the judicial system is due for some major reforms…
Can one really be guilty of a crime, if they did not have free-will to act otherwise?









(Edited by Jarvis Cocker at 8:55 pm on June 2, 2003)

[Pete]

Nothing. Nothing at all needs to be said in this thread then what I am about to say.

Would a rose smell as sweet with anyother name?

You may be an educated racist and call your self a euginist, but Shakespeare's writing and lessons are immortal.

Quit your racist preaching.

[Anonymous]

Quote: from El Che on 3:52 am on June 2, 2003
Well first off, I dont know why this thread was locked but I`m unlocking it so I can reply and defend my self.
----

Millennium,

I don`t give a damn what you feel for me, I don`t give a damn how civilized and polite you are or have been.

You, as I see it, are making racist proclamations and therefore deserve nothing but my sharpest comments. That is the only issue here and we should stick to that.

When you say that the lower classes, the criminals, the rapists, etc, are as they are for primarily racial or genetic reasons you`re being a racist if I ever saw one. And whats more, you`re lying.

Such vile rhetoric. Such dangerous and utterly untrue conclusions you are trying to validate here. I can just picture the extreme right having a field day them. Why do black minorities commit so much crime? Because they are genetically predisposed towards crime! Thats brilliant, really.

I can not in the face of such ideas and rhetoric remain emotionally impassive and indifferent. Perhaps I am at fault here, for not being the stone cold rational debater, but so be it. Your way of explaining the world is, in addition to being false and dangerous, aint human in nature. It puts people into categories, though you desperately try to avoid giving this away.

As for your banning, issue which you now try to make central, I have little influence. Just my one vote, same as everybody else. Therefore, if you wish to oppose my wish of having you banned, all you have to do is convince the majority that you are right and I am wrong. What more could you possibly ask for?

(Edited by El Che at 8:55 am on June 2, 2003)



Why are you so afraid?

[El Che]

DC, you might be alot of things but all in all you`re not a bad guy. Misguided perhaps.

Me? I`m not afraid of many things. I`m certainly not afraid of this bullshit. I`m afraid of getting hurt, Mark couldn`t hurt me if he tried. As a general rule, only people that can hurt you are the ones you let come close to you. Don`t confuse a stern reaction with fear.

When it comes to politics I`m above all a humanist. Socialism is merely a social framework to achive humanist goals. If you look at it from my point of view I think you can understand my reaction. If not...

[Millennium]

When it comes to politics I`m above all a humanist. Socialism is merely a social framework to achive humanist goals. If you look at it from my point of view I think you can understand my reaction. If not...

When it comes to politics I'm above all a humanist. Eugenics is merely a social framework to achieve humanist goals. If you look at me from my point of view I think you can understand my behavior. If not... then you behave with unreasoning hysteria and sanctomonious hypocrisy.


Don't really care that you are going to play the victim on getting banned.

I'm not playing the victim; nothing anyone can say or do here can victimize me, only show your own immaturity and intolerance. The rest of the board is watching. They want to know - how do you deal with civilized dissenters? Do you patiently and rationally convince them of their error? Or do you call them names, censor them, and bann them?

Just to refresh everyone's memory, this is what socialists claim to believe on the subject:


This may sound like a stupid thread, but i was wondering why do people attack people and not the idea's. Like someone makes a point, and instead of someone trying to debate the point they'll focus on insulting the person personally.

...

It is a way of saying "i can't debate you like a normal human being so i will act like a 2 year old"? or is there another purpose behind it?

___________

Its peoples way of debating when they have noting to say! Its a very good point! You will get further if u attack the persons point of view on a non-personal level because then u r being the better person and they have to answer ur questions and then progress is made!

__________

this might sound hollow coming from me, but it is an indication of bad reasoning. a personal "ad hominen" attack ussually is perceived as an argument and is so used as such. bad reasoning can be attributed to two possibilities. a deficiency on the part of the arguer to defend his or her position or a deficiency of the position itself.


Those are simply the first three posts at http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...ic=2362&start=0 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=2362&start=0). I could just as easilly quote more posts from http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...m=22&topic=2390 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=2390) where leftist board members united in their complaints against censorship. Your behavior on this thread proves that, while it's all well and good to cry for fairness when you are the one being insulted and shouted down, you have no respect for fair play or open debate so long as the option of censorship and personal attack remains useful to you. If you thought you could defeat any of my arguments with reason, you would simply enter into open debate. It's very telling that you aren't doing this.

Since I have apparently not been banned (a wise decision on the part of the moderators), I will continue posting here for only long enough to answer questions directed at me. You will note, if you actually follow the threads on which I have posted, that I have largely contained myself to answering posts directed at me personally. If you think for just a moment, you'll remember that I was repeatedly asked "what should we do?" and that is the only reason I started this thread, to answer those who asked.

I will start one last thread, in which I will henceforth confine my posts, to allow those socialists here who are not afraid of honest debate a chance to direct questions and opinions towards me. When people stop posting into that thread, I will leave. At that point, you can feel free to embarrass yourselves with asinine accusations of "racism" against someone who quite clearly does not "hold the notion that one's own ethnic stock is superior." Of course, since I will no longer be around to defend myself or even acknowledge them, such attacks will serve no purpose other than to embarass those who make them, but I'm sure they will do worlds to advance the cause of humanism and global socialism.

Che would be so proud.

--Mark

[peaccenicked]

Eugenics sneaks in the racist agenda lets ban all eugenicists from this site.
Evidence:http://www.eugenics-watch.com/

[Bianconero]

Having read through this thread I find it rather disturbing that you, 'Millennium', seem to consider yourself superior to most of us, to all of us, to some of us - I don't know. Talking about censorship (which you don't seem to like really), wouldn't it be a natural result of your 'ideology' to censor oppinions of people you would consider 'genetically inferior' to yourself?

Now there are many arguments I would like to bring up for which I haven't got the time, sadly. Just one thing that was on my mind all the time.

You keep on babbling about 'IQ'. Now am I right when I say that you would use IQ - tests to find out about a person's IQ? If so, then it is, for me, not that hard to realize that IQ - tests are not objective.

Which would, of course, ridicule your 'theories'.



(Edited by Bianconero at 9:58 pm on June 3, 2003)

[Vinny Rafarino]

Once again comrades you are showing your ignorance.
I will re-post a previous remark simply because I'm too annoyed with the behaviour of my comrades to bother typing it out again...

I would not consider myself to be a eugenist however I am Intelligent enough to listen to Millennium without bias. Most of our comrades here are interpreting Millennium and his viewpoints as being unfounded or even facist. You cannot be more wrong. I could almost guarantee he is currently the most intelligent individual in this forum. Even more so than me. Socialism and Eugenics would never mix? How can that be when the overall goal for humanity is precisely the same? I myself understand Mr. Millennium entirely as I too usually feel "separated" from the masses due to extensive IQ gaps between them and I. ( I too have tested over 160 Mark...The average of many being approximately 152)As a matter of fact it is a very heavy load to bear at times. Like it or not comrades. These facts are indeed accurate and you should feel lucky that individuals of this intellectual calibre even bother to concern ourselves with the advancement of the human species as a whole (rather than according to colour as much of you think) knowing the majority of the populace will not only "not get it" but will also misinterpret it's aims as "facist". Nothing could be further from the truth.

Now. I will prove that Mark is not racist so please pay attention.

rac·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rszm)
n.
The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

I believe Mark has more than proven himself to not put one race in a "superior" category over all others. DO NOT ARGUE...IF YOU REQUIRE PROOF PLEASE READ ALL OF MARK'S THREADS.

(Edited by COMRADE RAF at 12:01 pm on June 6, 2003)

[El Che]

COMRADE RAF, why don`t you take a walk and go see if I`m around the corner.

[Vinny Rafarino]

El Che. What exactly are you attempting to say "comrade".

Mark,

I was viewing the "Eugenics Watch" website...I certainly hope you do not share the views of these individuals as they are indeed racists. And from what I read, their intellectual calibre is somewhat lacking.
Can you please explain this for me?

[El Che]

In so many words: piss off. You aint no comrade of mine either.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Quote: from El Che on 12:07 am on June 8, 2003
In so many words: piss off. You aint no comrade of mine either.

Well if that's the way it then. I just love these internet toughguys...all 10 stone of 'em. If you like I can PM to you my address big guy. So until then fuck off.


(Edited by COMRADE RAF at 1:21 am on June 8, 2003)

[El Che]

LOL

I`m shaking.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Shake, tremble, vomit....do whatever you need to. You began this so when you get your bottle up let me know mate.

[Pete]

Fuck off the both of you :)