View Full Version : Jews against Israel/Zionism - And a discussion on the Israel
I will post the link here, but the picture speaks for itself.
Link (http://www.shwa.org/topic/palestine/jewsunite.htm)
When speaking of Israel we must remember that although it is a Jewish state many Jews are not Zionists and oppose its existance.
To get this topic started in this forum I will state my opinion. Israel will be driven into the sea. That is the only possible and logical outcome of the situation
-Pete... Let the debate begin :)
Totalitarian
2nd June 2003, 03:17
"Israel will be driven into the sea"
And where do you think these 6 million Jews should go to?
CruelVerdad
2nd June 2003, 04:11
There has always been a fight for territory that will keep on, until who knows when!
I just think each one should have itīs own territory.
Stop the killings!
Well that was an inflamatory statement on purpose. The land is Palestine, so why let the issue get buried by more generations bodies? the only way for peace to happen is to dismantle the Jewish state. And let the Refugees back in.
Totalitarian
2nd June 2003, 04:16
Quote: from CrazyPete on 4:13 am on June 2, 2003
Well that was an inflamatory statement on purpose. The land is Palestine, so why let the issue get buried by more generations bodies? the only way for peace to happen is to dismantle the Jewish state. And let the Refugees back in.
Right...how will the nuclear armed theocracy of Isntreal be "dismantled" and by whom?
Islam. Although I don't support the reactionary west, I have studied this topic and see that as western (israel included) aggression increases the forces of the MidEastern Right fight back twice as hard. Every step Israeli settlers make in to the Palestine, another grave is built in blood.
Totalitarian
2nd June 2003, 05:09
Well, i guess Islam has numbers on its side and a higher birthrate.
I don't think the Jews will give up easily though. Some of them are extremely crazy, like these guys:
http://www.jtf.org
JTF's 7-POINT PLAN
How JTF would save America and Israel!
POINT ONE: A ferocious retaliation, including the use of neutron bombs, against all Muslim nations which have in any way aided or abetted terrorism against American citizens.
POINT TWO: The immediate destruction by the American or Israeli military of all Muslim nuclear reactors, plants and laboratories developing nuclear, chemical and/or biological weapons of mass destruction.
POINT THREE: Total energy independence for America through a crash development program funded in the defense budget as a vital national security priority.
POINT FOUR: An immediate end to all U.S. foreign aid, including the so-called loans of the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund.
POINT FIVE: An immediate end to all foreign immigration into the United States, combined with the complete expulsion of America's millions of illegal aliens and the stringent removal of her legal ones at the expiration of their work or residency visas.
POINT SIX: An immediate end to all diplomatic entanglements with the Muslim world, including a total disavowal of the negotiations aimed at forcing little Israel to commit national suicide.
POINT SEVEN: An immediate withdrawal from the fanatically anti-American United Nations (UN) and all organizations directly or indirectly affiliated with it, and the immediate banning of all UN-related activities on American soil.
Loknar
4th June 2003, 06:50
The arab states have gotten them selves into this mess. Israel won that land in a war. Let Israel take what it needs and let the Palesinians have what's left over.
Zombie
4th June 2003, 06:54
no offense Pete, but isn't there a thread already discussing this issue? Or do you want one outside of Politics?
Zombie
4th June 2003, 06:57
Quote: from Loknar on 1:50 am on June 4, 2003
The arab states have gotten them selves into this mess. Israel won that land in a war. Let Israel take what it needs and let the Palesinians have what's left over.
where you from Loknar?
Loknar
4th June 2003, 13:27
Quote: from Zombie on 6:57 am on June 4, 2003
[quote]Quote: from Loknar on 1:50 am on June 4, 2003
where you from Loknar?
USA
BTW, did you know Israel has been attacked by their neighbours?
MarxIsGod
4th June 2003, 19:21
In an attempt to steer clear of the political and emotional rhetoric in this forum, I just want to reiterate what was said at the beginning of the thread: Zionism does not equal Judaism and the JTF, like several other groups including the JDL (www.jdl.org), is an extremist groups whose views are not mainstream nor are they shared by a significant number of people.
Loknar
4th June 2003, 19:24
I notice that these 'extremeist' groups (the Jewish groups who blow uo schools in Palestine) are never refered to as terrorists like Hamas is. They both are terrorists and I wish the media would label then as such.
Umoja
4th June 2003, 23:26
I've always found this site especially interesting.
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
This site is especially respectful towards the issue as well.
Totalitarian
5th June 2003, 10:55
And don't forget, Israel committed a terrorist attack against the US in 1967 in which dozens of Americans were killed. This was then hushed up by the Zionist-dominated media and Israeli government claimed it was as "mistake".
http://www.ussliberty.org
There is also evidence to suggest that Israeli intelligence knew about the 9/11 attacks but did not inform the US.
http://www.antiwar.com/israelfiles2.html
Loknar
6th June 2003, 21:40
I do believe that Israel attacked the USS Liberty (very stupid move, they could have taken Damascus). However, their knoweledge of 9-11 I find hard to believe. Though I will admit it would be in their own intereats to allow the attacks.
(Edited by Loknar at 9:41 pm on June 6, 2003)
I made this so intelligent and knowledgable members of the OI forum could comment. There are some. Unfortuantly we got mr. uneducated him self who is blinded by patriotism and is a warmongering fool.
Vinny Rafarino
6th June 2003, 22:02
Quote: from Totalitarian on 3:17 am on June 2, 2003
"Israel will be driven into the sea"
And where do you think these 6 million Jews should go to?
Back to their European or American countries. Remember, there are no anglos that are "from" the middle east.
To be honest, who gives a toss where these fundamantalists go. Buy a fucking island with your "slave labour diamond money" for all I care.
Loknar
7th June 2003, 05:32
COMRADE RAF
The Jews are Semetic peoples just as the Arabs are, both sides need to get along. It looks good now but it wont last.
The jews are for the most part European not semetic. Judaism is a religoin remember, not an ethnicity. There are some arab-jews but they are just that arabs, as their are european muslims and arab muslims. There is a difference between the arab jew who has family claim for the last 700 years and an irish jew who has 15 years claim
Loknar
7th June 2003, 06:15
CrazyPete
The Jews have faced much discrmination even before the holocost. They do indeed need a home land and the arab leadership after WW1 agreeed to allow Israeli settelers to settle in the mideast. After WW2 it was very appearant they needed one.
rebelafrika
7th June 2003, 07:52
Defend the Jews, but DESTROY the zionists!
http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/
El Brujo
7th June 2003, 08:23
"The Jews have faced much discrmination even before the holocost."
And, according to political correctness, that gives them the right to do the same to other peoples?
"They do indeed need a home land"
That is debatable. They had no reason to flee Europe after WW2, as they were no longer persecuted, nor did they face national oppression after the fall of fascism. Once people are established some place, it is hard to move a whole population out, but nevertheless, the Palestinians deserve the land they were kicked out of and to have their own, independent state. The situation in Israel is just like that of apartheid South Africa (foreigners [whites, jews], invading another land, kicking the natives out of their own land and treating them like second-class citizens)
[b]"and the arab leadership after WW1 agreeed to allow Israeli settelers to settle in the mideast."
You forgot to consider that most of the middle-east was COLONIZED by Europe during that time period. Do you honestly think Palestine, as an independant state, would have allowed a large migration of foreigners to enter their territory and would have given way to them if they were not a British colony?
"After WW2 it was very appearant they needed one."
After WW2 was exactly when they least needed it because they were no longer persecuted. In fact, most of the early Zionist movement consisted of the Judea (Jewish elites, many of whom were American, that were given special positions as provisional governments in German-occupied territory) that stamped out popular uprisings in ghettos for the Nazis.
Reuben
7th June 2003, 10:01
Quote: from El Brujo on 8:23 am on June 7, 2003
[b]"The
That is debatable. They had no reason to flee Europe after WW2, as they were no longer persecuted, nor did they face national oppression after the fall of fascism. Once people are established some place, it is hard to move a whole population out, but nevertheless, the Palestinians deserve the land they were kicked out of and to have their own, independent state. The situation in Israel is just like that of apartheid South Africa (foreigners [whites, jews], invading another land, kicking the natives [blacks, palestinians] out of their own land and treating them like second-class citizens)
Brujo this is not true. After the war a great deal of jews were holed up in displaced persons camps. THey had nothing to go back to and in countries such as poland the local populations had become even more hositile since many countries felt they ha been invaded on account of the jews. In the aftermath of the war the Polish National army (ive forgotten their name ) were documented to have taken part in a number of anti-semitic attacks and their were a number of post war pogroms i believe. In this context in which jews had nothing to go back to except for hostility and often violence, and were holed up in displaced persons camps western nations refused to take in jewish refugees.
Furthermore jews did suffer a great deal of national oppressionin the soviet union. As well as suffering individual discrimination yiddish (jewish national language) writers were rounded up, yiddish libraries were closed and burned etc. While they may havebeen able t eek out an existence as individuals there were no possibilities in the USSR for collective cultural existence.
I am not a zionist as you know from previous posts. However it is much much to simplistic to say thazt anti-semitism simply dissapeared at the end of the war and suddenly the the situation of jews became fine. Anti-semitism did not start with the holocaust (which wasn ot in fact the first antijeiwhs genocide of the twentieth century) and in much of eastern europe did not end with the holocaust
Loknar
7th June 2003, 17:41
And, according to political correctness, that gives them the right to do the same to other peoples?
If the Arabs would have just accepted the UN mandate we wouldnt have this problem now. Israel has been open to peace many times only to be rejected by the Palestinians. They too had a state under the UN mandate but they screwed up so to hell with their state.
Oh, have you ever lived constant fear of some Arab walking up to you and blowing him self up?
commie kg
7th June 2003, 18:26
Quote: from Loknar on 9:41 am on June 7, 2003
Oh, have you ever lived constant fear of some Arab walking up to you and blowing him self up?
Have you ever lived in constant fear of an Israeli tank battalion crushing your neighborhood and murdering your freinds and family?
I didn't think so.
Loknar
7th June 2003, 19:34
Quote: from commie kg on 6:26 pm on June 7, 2003
Quote: from Loknar on 9:41 am on June 7, 2003
Oh, have you ever lived constant fear of some Arab walking up to you and blowing him self up?
Have you ever lived in constant fear of an Israeli tank battalion crushing your neighborhood and murdering your freinds and family?
I didn't think so.
That doesnt hold water. The Israeli's dont go in shooting people at will.
Dirty Commie
7th June 2003, 19:38
Quote: from Loknar on 2:34 pm on June 7, 2003
Quote: from commie kg on 6:26 pm on June 7, 2003
Quote: from Loknar on 9:41 am on June 7, 2003
Oh, have you ever lived constant fear of some Arab walking up to you and blowing him self up?
Have you ever lived in constant fear of an Israeli tank battalion crushing your neighborhood and murdering your freinds and family?
I didn't think so.
That doesnt hold water. The Israeli's dont go in shooting people at will.
Have you ever heard of the town called Jenin?
Loknar
7th June 2003, 19:47
Quote: from Dirty Commie on 7:38 pm on June 7, 2003
Quote: from Loknar on 2:34 pm on June 7, 2003
Quote: from commie kg on 6:26 pm on June 7, 2003
Quote: from Loknar on 9:41 am on June 7, 2003
Oh, have you ever lived constant fear of some Arab walking up to you and blowing him self up?
Have you ever lived in constant fear of an Israeli tank battalion crushing your neighborhood and murdering your freinds and family?
I didn't think so.
That doesnt hold water. The Israeli's dont go in shooting people at will.
Have you ever heard of the town called Jenin?
Oh, you mean where Palestinians were caught on film hopping out of their caskets?
commie kg
7th June 2003, 21:04
Palestinian kids are routinely shot or run over by tanks because they throw rocks or some other trivial threat.
even the corrupt U$ gov. recognizes this.
Just a couple months ago, a TV journalist taping Israeli troops beating 2 Palestinian kids was shot and killed for taping the activity.
What about Israeili bulldozers flattening Palestinian settlements?
Palestinian civilians have just as much to worry about as Israeili ones do.
Loknar
7th June 2003, 21:32
Just a couple months ago, a TV journalist taping Israeli troops beating 2 Palestinian kids was shot and killed for taping the activity.
Show me a news article.
What about Israeili bulldozers flattening Palestinian settlements?
They bulldoze the houses for protection against enemy snipers.
Palestinian civilians have just as much to worry about as Israeili ones do.
I'll agree with you here. But both sides are acting out of line, the Palestinians more so than the Israeli's. But look what Israel is doing now, Sharone has ordered the disbanding of illeagle settelments and he will allow the Palestinians to have their own state. Now it is just a matter of time, soon Hezbollah and Hamas will be blowing them selves up and ruin the 'road map'.
El Brujo
7th June 2003, 22:23
"Brujo this is not true. After the war a great deal of jews were holed up in displaced persons camps. THey had nothing to go back to and in countries such as poland the local populations had become even more hositile since many countries felt they ha been invaded on account of the jews. In the aftermath of the war the Polish National army (ive forgotten their name ) were documented to have taken part in a number of anti-semitic attacks and their were a number of post war pogroms i believe. In this context in which jews had nothing to go back to except for hostility and often violence, and were holed up in displaced persons camps western nations refused to take in jewish refugees."
This was immediately after WW2 but once the communist regimes of Eastern Europe came to power, racist violence was virulently outlawed. There has always been racism within populations, but nationally, they most-certainly were not persecuted. Im not saying that the creation of Israel was not an alternative but they had many others (and, if it was to be created, it should have been negotiated with the Palestinians, not put there by force).
Furthermore jews did suffer a great deal of national oppressionin the soviet union. As well as suffering individual discrimination yiddish (jewish national language) writers were rounded up, yiddish libraries were closed and burned etc. While they may havebeen able t eek out an existence as individuals there were no possibilities in the USSR for collective cultural existence.
That is quite false. Stalin did crack down on certain Jewish doctors and intellectuals but it had nothing to do with race/culture, he believed that there was a plot against him and they were involved. Furthermore, Stalin had many homes built for Jews in Eastern Russia during WW2 in which he hoped to house displaced Jews after the war.
Loknar
7th June 2003, 22:26
Jews in Russia even today are opressed. I just watched a fund raiser, if you send a certain ammount of money you can pay for a Russian Jewish family to move to Israel.
El Brujo
7th June 2003, 22:40
"If the Arabs would have just accepted the UN mandate we wouldnt have this problem now."
Oh yes, they are going to accept a mandate, forced on them, that gives the Jews 54% of the land even though they only made up 1/3 of the population and stand there with their arms crossed. Tce creation of the "Jewish state" should have been negotiated with an independent and sovereign Palestinian state, not forced on them by the British empire.
Furthermore, Israel has ignored UN pleas to dismantle settlements in conquered territory when that very well could have ended this problem.
"Israel has been open to peace many times only to be rejected by the Palestinians. They too had a state under the UN mandate but they screwed up so to hell with their state. "
Because these "peace treaty's" were absolutely unacceptable. They gave the zionists an unproportional ammount of land and the later ones proposed a joint system controlled by Israel. If the Israelites backed off to territory proportional to their population in the first place, this would not have happened. And, as it appears, the original zionist movement wanted even more (http://www.palestine.indymedia.org/news/20...02/11/90731.php (http://www.palestine.indymedia.org/news/2002/11/90731.php)). Now you can see why id dosen't surprise me that Israel has invaded and taken over other parts of the Middle East so often.
"Oh, have you ever lived constant fear of some Arab walking up to you and blowing him self up?"
"Oh, have you ever lived constant fear of some Israili tank coming up to you and blowing you up?"
You're double standards show your ignorance and hypocricy. And I believe that was a racist coment, pal.
El Brujo
7th June 2003, 22:45
Quote: from Loknar on 6:26 am on June 8, 2003
Jews in Russia even today are opressed. I just watched a fund raiser, if you send a certain ammount of money you can pay for a Russian Jewish family to move to Israel.
That is irrelevant to the point. Russia is now capitalist and has an extremely weak government. The communist governments had anti-semitism suppressed.
Loknar
7th June 2003, 22:49
El Brujo
How was my comment racist?
Also is it possible for a COmmunist government to do something wrong?
El Brujo
7th June 2003, 23:11
"How was my comment racist?"
"Oh, have you ever lived constant fear of some Arab walking up to you and blowing him self up?"
First off, not all Palestinians are Arabs, second, you could have said "suicide bomber" or something of that sort, instead of generalizing an ethnic group.
Also is it possible for a COmmunist government to do something wrong?
As humans are not perfect, of course. That does not mean that we can't correct what was done wrong and flesh out what was done right by learning from history (and it most certainly does not mean it commited hate crimes against Jews, or permitted them). How is this relevant to the discussion? What point are you trying to make?
commie kg
7th June 2003, 23:13
Quote: from Loknar on 1:32 pm on June 7, 2003
Show me a news article.
Here. Take a look. It was all over the news in late May.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/WO0305/S00208.htm
Loknar
7th June 2003, 23:46
Miller died while waiting for an army helicopter to take him to an Israeli hospital. The army expressed its regret, but added that the journalist had taken a serious risk by being in a war zone.
The reporters are in a wazone they are at risk plane and simple. The Israeli's regretted what happened and they tried to save the mans life, would the Palestinian's have tried to do the same? Also the article mentions nothing about ISraeli soliders beating children.,
(Edited by Loknar at 11:47 pm on June 7, 2003)
Loknar
8th June 2003, 01:31
First off, not all Palestinians are Arabs, second, you could have said "suicide bomber" or something of that sort, instead of generalizing an ethnic group.
Oh man... Political correctness sucks.
As humans are not perfect, of course. That does not mean that we can't correct what was done wrong and flesh out what was done right by learning from history (and it most certainly does not mean it commited hate crimes against Jews, or permitted them). How is this relevant to the discussion? What point are you trying to make?
My point is that you only admit that non COmmunist Russia could do such a thing to the Jews, but Communist Russia couldnt opress anyone.
commie kg
8th June 2003, 01:48
Quote: from Loknar on 3:46 pm on June 7, 2003
Also the article mentions nothing about ISraeli soliders beating children.,
The Canadian news channel 'International Newsfirst' Showed the tape that was found with his body. It clearly showed Israeli military beating one kid and dragging the other away, then he (the journalist) was shot.
(Edited by commie kg at 5:49 pm on June 7, 2003)
Loknar
8th June 2003, 01:51
They should mention that in the article. I find it hard to believe that the IDF wouldnt take his camera.
CrazyPete
The Jews have faced much discrmination even before the holocost. They do indeed need a home land and the arab leadership after WW1 agreeed to allow Israeli settelers to settle in the mideast. After WW2 it was very appearant they needed one.
That has nothing to do with the fact that Jeudaism is a religion not an ethnicity. Really Lonkar use your head and adress the issue at hand. You cannot avoid that.
I know the history, so if you look at the case that the persecution was in Europe do you not think that a country could have been carved out of germany for them instead of in Palestine??
BTW International Newsfirst, isn't that a show on the CBC not a channel itself...or is that the CTV?
Loknar
8th June 2003, 02:11
That has nothing to do with the fact that Jeudaism is a religion not an ethnicity. Really Lonkar use your head and adress the issue at hand. You cannot avoid that.
I always used to believe this as well, but ask a Jewish person this question. You can be a Jew in the ethnic sense and not be a Jew in the religous sense.
I know the history, so if you look at the case that the persecution was in Europe do you not think that a country could have been carved out of germany for them instead of in Palestine??
The Jews are just as Semetic as the Arabs are. Just because some Arab states may not like it doesnt mean that the Jews shouldnt have their own home in Judah.
BTW International Newsfirst, isn't that a show on the CBC not a channel itself...or is that the CTV?
I dont understand.
Totalitarian
8th June 2003, 02:25
Quote: from Loknar on 9:40 pm on June 6, 2003
I do believe that Israel attacked the USS Liberty (very stupid move, they could have taken Damascus). However, their knoweledge of 9-11 I find hard to believe. Though I will admit it would be in their own intereats to allow the attacks.
(Edited by Loknar at 9:41 pm on June 6, 2003)
Given Israel's history of anti-American terrorism, why doesn't the "war on terrorism" involve an Operation Israeli Freedom instead of an Operation Iraqi Freedom?
If evidence comes to light that Israel had prior knowledge of the 9/11 terrorism (we know that some of the hijackers were watched or even contacted by Israeli intelligence) and didn't inform sufficient members of the US government of information which could prevent those attacks, then do you think that counts as aiding and abetting terrorism?
(Edited by Totalitarian at 2:28 am on June 8, 2003)
Loknar
8th June 2003, 02:37
yes i do
I always used to believe this as well, but ask a Jewish person this question. You can be a Jew in the ethnic sense and not be a Jew in the religous sense.
Are you trying to corner me? The Jews in Israel are mostly from a European background, not an arab one. Jeudaism is a religion, they come from all ethnic backgrounds like anyother religion. Perhaps the term you are looking for is "Hebrew" instead of ethnically "Jewish."
The Jews are just as Semetic as the Arabs are. Just because some Arab states may not like it doesnt mean that the Jews shouldnt have their own home in Judah
So a Christian from, say, La Paz has a right to a Christian homeland in, say, Bethleham because that is where his religious icon was born/his religion created? I think you need a little less Zionism on your plate before you commenta gain. For fucks sake Judaism (I think I spelt it right that time) is a religion whereas Arab is a ethnic group. Religious people can come from any group.
I dont understand
That is because it was not directed to you.
Loknar
8th June 2003, 03:15
How do you know that most Jews in Israel are from a European decent? There were Jewish people living in Judah before Israels war of Independance.
Yes, and there was about 1million people in total in Palestine (don't call it by its biblical name use its modern name). 300 000 of them where Jews, and of that number about 200 000 emigrated from Europe during the pogroms, 2nd World War and build up to WWII.
Loknar
8th June 2003, 03:29
I am sorry, I get Judah and Palestine mixed up.
Anyway, so they escaped from opression. I wonder, would the Jews in the Mid-east even be there today had a State not been created?
Most may be of European decent but most Israelis speak Hebrew and about 2 generations have passed for allot of them. By now they are Israelis.
I want to thank you for speaking to me with out throwing an insult at me. I know you think I am crazy but I do perfer to have a conversation not a flame war like with RAF. Thanks.
I think the fact is, Loknar, that 2 generations does not make them Arabs or Semites at all. They are still European, although they are creating their own culture as you say. Unfortuantly this new culture/ethnicity is upon the bones of an already established one.
Just because they where the victims of genocide does not mean that they have the right to victimize another people, even if it is more South Africa style than Third Riech. Either way Israel is commiting war crimes and human rights offenses every day. Peace cannot, and will not come, until those responsible are brought to justice and all those with dreams of perputrating such atrocities are destroyed, whether mentally, physically or spiritually (as in they no longer wish to commit such acts and are no longer capable of justifiying them).
Loknar
8th June 2003, 03:38
But now there is this 'road map', Israel is going to abandon its settelments (or some of them) and allow for the creation of a Palestinian state. Basically a withdraw from the west bank and Gaza strip. They have been excessive by all means but they are under intense pressure from suicide bombers. Every action that they take is a retalitory strike.
Because when you attempt to destroy a people they will either crack and give in, or they will fight back. The Arab-Palestinians are fighting back and the roadmap is not being agreed to by the popele that matter on either side. Peace willnto fcome.
Loknar
8th June 2003, 03:55
But Israel is not trying to destroy them. They are trying to have a state of their own with out having to worry about bombers. The 'road map' may not be complete just yet but disbanding settelments is a huge step. But some terror organazations are absoutely devoted to the destruction of Israel no matter what happens.
Settlers are protesting against Sharon, I am sure you do not know of that do you? And Hamas has cut off negotiations with Abbas. There will be no Palestinian unity, but do not be quick to label them terror groups as they are fighting for something which has been denied from and which and artificial creation has been granted.
Have you heard of the "security" wall being built? It's progress is not being halted nor is the expansion of current settlements being stopped. Niether side is serious about this roadmap.
Optimism like what you show has no place in Israel-Palestine.
Loknar
8th June 2003, 04:26
Most settlers polled would leave if it meant peace (I think it was %70). I do however think that these negoiations wont work no matter what happens.
Most settlers polled would leave if it meant peace (I think it was %70).
Remember actions (http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20030604.wizzy604/BNStory/International/?query=settler+protest) speak louder than words.
I do however think that these negoiations wont work no matter what happens.
Although peace is preferable, I am happy you see the folly in accepting this roadmap as a true path to it.
Loknar
8th June 2003, 04:43
It looks like Sharone may be in danger of loosing power.
El Brujo
8th June 2003, 04:46
"Oh man... Political correctness sucks."
Funny thing to hear from a Zionist sympathiser.
"My point is that you only admit that non COmmunist Russia could do such a thing to the Jews, but Communist Russia couldnt opress anyone."
I did not "admit that non Communist Russia" is anti-semitic. It is not either, all state oppression of the Jews in Russia ended with the Bolshevik revolution, the reason that there is anti-semitic violence by people in Russia is only a matter of the state not being powerful enougph to suppress it.
And like I said, nobody is perfect. Stalin did have people killed that didn't deserve to be killed (as well as not having killed people that did, as is proven by Khrushev and other such revisionists that brought down the USSR) but overall, as he DOUBLED the populace's life expectancy, I'd say he did a damn good job. History is there to learn from and to perfect practices such as that.
Tasha
8th June 2003, 05:33
(Edited by Tasha at 5:35 am on June 8, 2003)
Loknar
8th June 2003, 05:35
The orgional UN mandate allowed for a Palestinian and Israeli state,.
Totalitarian
8th June 2003, 07:00
Ashkenazi Jews have a mixture of Turkoid, Semitic and European descent (with small amounts of African admixture)
Reuben
8th June 2003, 08:50
Quote: from Loknar on 3:38 am on June 8, 2003
Every action that they take is a retalitory strike.
Couldyou tell me how the destruction of Palestinian olive trees and palestinian aricultue constitutes a retaliatory strike. This is not a 'retaliatory strike' this is collective punishment against a whole ethnic group, and apeople, who due to the occupation have no political rights and no political means by which they can change there situation (as an occuppied peopele they are under the control of the israeli government but cannot vote for it).
I do not support suicide ombing, however given the terrible human and material conditions under which the palestinians are living, and the fact that they are completely disenfranchised to affect there situation through 'legitimate' methods, it is understandable that many of them turn to methods swhich disgust hoose of us in the comfortable west.
Furthermore, it is obvious to anyone that the character of Israeli 'retaliation' is simply bound to create more suicide bombers. The example i will give is the recent killin of an alleged palestinian terrorist leader. Israeli orces chose to 'take him out' in a busy market place so that 4 innocent Palestinians standing next to him died too.
Totalitarian
8th June 2003, 10:09
Quote: from Loknar on 5:35 am on June 8, 2003
The orgional UN mandate allowed for a Palestinian and Israeli state,.
So, Loknar, you are in favour of ethnic segregation?
Loknar
8th June 2003, 17:56
Totalitarian
Did I say i was? And what is wrong with different ethnic groups having their on state?
Reuben
What should Israel do then?
El Che
8th June 2003, 18:02
"Isntreal"
lol. Thats a good one.
El Che
8th June 2003, 19:04
Because its actually so fucked up its surreal.
Totalitarian
8th June 2003, 23:32
Quote: from Loknar on 5:56 pm on June 8, 2003 Totalitarian
Did I say i was? And what is wrong with different ethnic groups having their on state?
Nothing, as long as you agree with all ethnic groups having their own state. That should theoretically mean that a country like Sweden should be allowed to restrict non-Swede immigration. Yet if the Swedes did that, they would be accused of political incorrectness by the same sorts of lobbies that are so enthralled by israel.
Israel only survives because of the exorbitant funds it receives from American and German taxpayers. Without its welfare payments, israel would be rather screwed financially.
What i wonder is, why does the USA give its highest foreign aid payment ($3 billion per year), which is something like 80% or more of America's foreign aid budget, to a state with a known history of anti-American terrorism?
I simply can't understand. Can you, Loknar?
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