the global economical crisis golden time for everybody

[danyboy27]

has far has i can see it, the current economical situation is the perfect time for both socialist and capitalists to gain something out of it.

people from the left can with a better ease promote leftist idea has an alternative, and use the current crisis to create groups like labor union and other leftist organisations.

for the capitalists, or at least for the wise ones, this is the best time to make a shitload of money. Past economical crisis proved that, people living in a economical turnmoil are depressed and want to be entertained to forget, so there is currently a huuge market for cheap entertainement, and there is also a huuge market for cheap used good.

so, who will win this?
i am juggling between the first and the second option right now.

[play.clown]

In America? ...a weird mix of socialistic and fascist idealogies have already won...

[RGacky3]

In America? ...a weird mix of socialistic and fascist idealogies have already won...


Not socialistic at all, Corpratism has taken over on the top, the government that is, pissing off Americans all over the place.

The one good thing about this is that people are starting to see the government for what it is, and American Society for what it is. Really, Corporate controlled.

Right now people are all Obama crazy, its gonna take a while before they realize he's not gonna change much at all. Then we'll see.

[Rascolnikova]

Sadly,

people who ascribe to capitalist ideologies and have enough capital to make a shitload of money + leftists << everyone.

[Dust Bunnies]

Unfortunately, we have to wait until Obama Mania fails to provide. Hopefully they'll see past his speeches and look to real hope, the hope of a better tomorrow, the hope of Communism.

[Killfacer]

Unfortunately, we have to wait until Obama Mania fails to provide. Hopefully they'll see past his speeches and look to real hope, the hope of a better tomorrow, the hope of Communism.


Is that a joke right? Communism will never happen in America. I am not saying that some kind of left wing society is impossible there, simply that anything under the name of communism would never be accepted by 99% of Americans. American's hate communism with a passion.

Saying that i do not believe that a communist revolution is likely to occur in the UK, at least not one which bears the name. Most UK citizens either haven't heard of it/don't give a damn about it or just know who Stalin is; not a good place to start. On the other hand i do think that if a real socialist society was to be created, a lasting one that is, it would be in europe.

To your point spetnaz i agree entirely and i am sure some people are going to become very rich out of the financial crisis.

[danyboy27]

i still think this is the best time ever to make leftist idea pass, particulary in the us.

car industry collapsing, only the intervention of the governement could possibly save all those worker from starvation, i think the best way would be the nationalization of those 3 industries but eh, nobody read my post aboutr that so fuck it.

its been proved in the past that everything that is owned by the governement kind of survive to economical crisis, it mean stable job, stable industries, stronger country.

look at the us defense sector for exemple, if most of those industries would belong to the us governement, they could build more and more stuff without paying shitload of dollars.

[RGacky3]

Communism will never happen in America. I am not saying that some kind of left wing society is impossible there, simply that anything under the name of communism would never be accepted by 99% of Americans. American's hate communism with a passion.


No they don't, call it something else, and explain it to them, chances are you'll get a lot more support, they hate what they think is communism (I would hate it too).


On the other hand i do think that if a real socialist society was to be created, a lasting one that is, it would be in europe.


Zapatista Mexico refutes that, African socialism has a good chance of taking hold at the community level in different parts of central/eastern Africa. I remember talking to an African preacher on a plane once who was explaining African Socialism to me, I've never been to africa but it seams like it can take hold there, and that it has in many areas.

In South America and Mexico Socialism is raising, and raising the right way, and I'm not talking about Hugo Chaves and Evo Morales, I'm talking about Unions getting their act together, collectives, actual town/city rebellions (places like Oaxaca). The Zapatistas and so on.

To me Europe for the most part approached socialism the wrong way, they either followed Bolshevism or Social-Democracy.


i think the best way would be the nationalization of those 3 industries but eh, nobody read my post aboutr that so fuck it.

I read them :P.Nationalizing them will do 2 things, 1. put the burdon on the tax payer (these companies are LOOSING money), 2. Still loose competition to other non-American car makers.

Companies should be nationalized when they are profitable, so they actually benefit society. Nationalizing them when they are failing basically takes the losses from the Capitalist and gives it to the people.


its been proved in the past that everything that is owned by the governement kind of survive to economical crisis, it mean stable job, stable industries, stronger country.

Remember we are in a Global Capitalist Market now. This means for government to Nationalize they either have to strip property rights? Or BUY industry. But your right, Nationalized businesses are less succeptable to crisis than private, because desicion making is more long term and less short term profit, that bieng said, they gotta be natinalized before they fail or else the point is lost.


look at the us defense sector for exemple, if most of those industries would belong to the us governement, they could build more and more stuff without paying shitload of dollars.

Yeah, well try and convince the government of that. The government does'nt want to own it, they want to keep pumping the Capitalist class full of money and foot the bill to the people.

You can say what the government should do till your blue in the face, it does'nt matter, they'll do what their job is, and always has been, keep the ruling class ruling.

[Killfacer]

I have utmost respect for the Zapatista's but, not wishing to sound dismissive, they are on the fringe in mexico. I was trying to say that i beleive the only place that a powerful, modern and influential socialist society could possibly be created is in europe.

I am yet to see any real progress of large African nations turning to socialism. Yes, the occasional commune but nothing with the scope i was trying to talk about.

I also doubt it would gain much support. American's tend to be like Tom, they hate "spreading the wealth". Obviously my veiw may well be incorrect as i do not actually live in the US, but it is the understanding i have of what Americans beleive.

[RGacky3]

I have utmost respect for the Zapatista's but, not wishing to sound dismissive, they are on the fringe in mexico. I was trying to say that i beleive the only place that a powerful, modern and influential socialist society could possibly be created is in europe.


What does it matter if its powerful and influential, thats not our objecive, nor do we look at things from a national persective (or at least we should'nt), It does'nt matter if they are on the fringe in Mexico, they are not on the fringe in Chiapas.


I also doubt it would gain much support. American's tend to be like Tom, they hate "spreading the wealth".

Thats because they have the prenotions that are banged into them from childhood, and when the question is given to them its with thos prenotions. I guarantee you however, if you pose the question in the correct form (I've tried this), without the prenotions, most will be pro-socialist.

To most Americans the question is ultimately "do you support us taking your money and giving it to bums?" or "Do you support everyone making the same wage," when they are asked about socialism, if you break it down, and don't even used the word socialism you skip the prenotions and Americans are as open (in general) as everyone else is about it.

Only difference is America was one of the worlds best propeganda systems, we just have to go around that.


I am yet to see any real progress of large African nations turning to socialism. Yes, the occasional commune but nothing with the scope i was trying to talk about.

Like I said before, I don't look at things nationally, thats not what I'm aiming for. I would personally consider it more of a success to have a city, or a couple communities where the workers are organized in syndicalist unions and take a stand, than having a nation with a Socialist president/prime minister, with the former much more concrete action toward socialism can take place, with the latter it tends to be a lot of rhetoric.

[Dr Mindbender]

Unfortunately, we have to wait until Obama Mania fails to provide. Hopefully they'll see past his speeches and look to real hope, the hope of a better tomorrow, the hope of Communism.
my fear is they will forget how bad the republicans were and go back to them.

Back to square one. :(

Or worse still, they could turn to the fascists.

[Bud Struggle]

my fear is they will forget how bad the republicans were and go back to them.

Back to square one. :(

Or worse still, they could turn to the fascists.

America will NEVER turn fascist (just like they will never turn Communist) but the Democrat/Republican pendulum swings every eight years.

[Dr Mindbender]

America will NEVER turn fascist (just like they will never turn Communist) but the Democrat/Republican pendulum swings every eight years.

To say that America will NEVER turn anything is to bury your head in the sand.

When the capitalist free market hegemony fails (which it inevitably will) the american people will grow tired and look elsewhere. This was the case in Germany and Russia, and the same can happen anywhere else. I don't care what country you're talking about.

[Bud Struggle]

To say that America will NEVER turn anything is to bury your head in the sand.

When the capitalist free market hegemony fails (which it inevitably will) the american people will grow tired and look elsewhere. This was the case in Germany and Russia, and the same can happen anywhere else. I don't care what country you're talking about.

COMPLETELY DISAGREE with you on this one. It just ain't gunna happen here.

And the free market will never fail--it's a perpetual motion machine. Besides the Government keeps it propped up. :rolleyes:

[Killfacer]

What does it matter if its powerful and influential, thats not our objecive, nor do we look at things from a national persective (or at least we should'nt), It does'nt matter if they are on the fringe in Mexico, they are not on the fringe in Chiapas.



Thats because they have the prenotions that are banged into them from childhood, and when the question is given to them its with thos prenotions. I guarantee you however, if you pose the question in the correct form (I've tried this), without the prenotions, most will be pro-socialist.

To most Americans the question is ultimately "do you support us taking your money and giving it to bums?" or "Do you support everyone making the same wage," when they are asked about socialism, if you break it down, and don't even used the word socialism you skip the prenotions and Americans are as open (in general) as everyone else is about it.

Only difference is America was one of the worlds best propeganda systems, we just have to go around that.



Like I said before, I don't look at things nationally, thats not what I'm aiming for. I would personally consider it more of a success to have a city, or a couple communities where the workers are organized in syndicalist unions and take a stand, than having a nation with a Socialist president/prime minister, with the former much more concrete action toward socialism can take place, with the latter it tends to be a lot of rhetoric.


So you are no concentrating on an international thing? I agree entirely, progress in the community is far more likely to change peoples attitudes.

Good to hear someone talking sense.

[Dr Mindbender]

And the free market will never fail--it's a perpetual motion machine. Besides the Government keeps it propped up. :rolleyes:


Its not a perpetual motion machine at all.

The Earth has limited resources, and it's slowly being terraformed into another planet Venus.

Capitalism is consuming more than it's replacing, so we either need a change in political methodology otherwise we've had it.

In short, it's capitalism or the human race.

[RGacky3]

America will NEVER turn fascist (just like they will never turn Communist) but the Democrat/Republican pendulum swings every eight years.

Well, in a way America is already fascist (in the sense its corporatist, a system thought up by mussolini).

BTW, fascism does'nt appear in politics as usual, its usually something drastic that causes it, so never say never.


And the free market will never fail--it's a perpetual motion machine. Besides the Government keeps it propped up.

Its failed 90% of everyone already. Also, the government can't keep propping it up, eventually debts are gonna have to be paid.


So you are no concentrating on an internation thing? I agree entirely, progress in the community is far more likely to change peoples attitudes.

Good to hear someone talking sense.

Well international in the sense that our goal is ultimately international and we don't accept borders or devide ourselves by nations, but community and workplace battles in my mind are much more important than petty politics.


The Earth has limited resources, and it's slowly being terraformed into another planet Venus.


Not only that, but ultimately Capitalism can't sustain itself economically, Marxes analysis of Capitalism is prooving correct, its bloating and bloating, and we're already seeing some of the bottoms pop out.

[Bud Struggle]

Well, in a way America is already fascist (in the sense its corporatist, a system thought up by mussolini).

BTW, fascism does'nt appear in politics as usual, its usually something drastic that causes it, so never say never. I guess. Maybe you are right--but honestly, I don't see it. I live in a world of small and medium businesses doing business with small to medium businesses. I KNOW there are big corporations out there--and they do business with one another, but most medium and small business owners would rather die than trade with them--there are almost two worlds.tha


Its failed 90% of everyone already. Also, the government can't keep propping it up, eventually debts are gonna have to be paid. I'm seeing it work quite nicely. the government should say out of private screw ups. Failed businesses should FAIL--not be propped up. they make room for BETTER businesses. This is a large part of why I think GWB is a dick.

[RGacky3]

I KNOW there are big corporations out there--and they do business with one another, but most medium and small business owners would rather die than trade with them--there are almost two worlds.tha


Really? What computers does your company use? Your telling me you don't buy equipment from Big Corporations? Where do you buy your gas? How to you send your product to consumers. The list goes on.

Most medium and small business owners want to make the most money they can, if that means trading with big Conglomorates they will, don't fool yourself, Buisiness is'nt about pride or ethics, its money. Most small and medium businesses would LOVE to be big Corporations and have that type of money and pull.

btw look at the statistics of how much of the world is controlled by Huge Corporations, its a large portion.


I'm seeing it work quite nicely. the government should say out of private screw ups. Failed businesses should FAIL--not be propped up. they make room for BETTER businesses. This is a large part of why I think GWB is a dick.

Yeah for you, but like I said not for 90% of everyone. Most people are not business men.