So is Kim Jong Il dead? [Archive]

oblisk

7th November 2008, 10:13

First, Kim Jong Il wears that same jacket nearly every winter/fall. There are many pictures of that very jacket on the Naenara site.

And there is zero evidence to support that they are Photoshopped pictures. The shadow on the extreme right is similar to the one casting to Kim Jong Il.

Also, Kim Jong Il's pictures do not even match.

observe this animated picture:

absolutely-corrupt.com/uploads/random/kji.gif

The creases, silhouette, and the textural patterns do not match. Hardly evidence that Kim Jong Il is dead.

Also, on the so called missing appearance of Kim Jong Il- Kim Jong Il had missed out previous occasions of importance in the past, and to assume that he is sick/dead because of this absent holds no ground. He is like any other politician, he could have been busy, flu, etc.

Take into account that there has been three major news reports on Kim Jong Il the past month:

1) Kim Jong Il missed out on the parade, he is sick/dead/dying
2) DPRK is about to make a "major" announcement
3) Kim Jong Il requires Neuro-Surgery

Many of you can probably remember these news items.
They all came from Japan, and not a single DPRK representative was contacted before they released this sensationalistic piece of news. Furthermore, all three items turned out to be false.

Revy

7th November 2008, 10:19

Louis Pio

7th November 2008, 13:09

Im more inclined to think he missed out because he had a major hangover, one not even his obligatory sunglasses could hide

#FF0000

7th November 2008, 13:46

chimx

7th November 2008, 15:30

And there is zero evidence to support that they are Photoshopped pictures.

Wrong. Look at the horizontal line on the white stage behind Kim. It stops behind Kim but is there behind the other soldiers and it is there in the other photos. It got erased and whoever photoshopped it forgot to put it back in.

rednordman

7th November 2008, 15:51

Its obvious that something is a foot. I do not know what it is exactly, but it seems to me almost that NK are actually panicing, to try and prove that Kim Jong IL is alive, when its not really in their own interests to tell anyother land anyway. The thing is that the first photo is definitly modified, but in fairness to Oblisk, the three announcents did seem to come from the same Japanese source, and absolutly nothing materialised from them. Coming to think about it, how do we know that it has actually come from the DPRK, anyway? This is the most photosavey I have known them to be as there have been numerous other suspiscious photos of him in the last month. So much for hermit kingdom? Strange.

Revy

7th November 2008, 16:25

Wrong. Look at the horizontal line on the white stage behind Kim. It stops behind Kim but is there behind the other soldiers and it is there in the other photos. It got erased and whoever photoshopped it forgot to put it back in.

Why would someone forget something like that?

This is a government trying to prove their leader's continued existence as a living person. They have resources at their disposal.

Forgive my skepticism. But I don't see why this couldn't be another platform or whatever it is, that just so happens to be missing "the line" in that part.

Are you suggesting that Kim's body or face was photoshopped into another photo? His face looks different, he looks healthier in the earlier picture. Also there is a difference in the color of his jacket and his pants and his shoes.

Revy

7th November 2008, 16:32

I believe that the "white bar" you are talking about is what the soldiers above him are standing on. The "bleachers" (I guess if you can call it that). They're not floating of course, they're standing on something. I came to this conclusion after looking at it closely.

I thought you were talking about the black line behind the military men beside Kim - was that what you were talking about? I wasn't sure. That's what I responded to, but just in case you're talking about this instead I wanted to give my response.

chimx

7th November 2008, 16:39

You're right that the photo BCBM posted is different. Look at the folds in the pants. Those are different photographs. But more importantly, the black line behind kim disappears behind kim when it clearly should continue. Between that and the obvious shadow problems it pretty hard evidence that this photo is a fake.

Revy

7th November 2008, 16:46

Okay chimx. I think you may have something to it here. I've been comparing the close-up images. and something is not quite right with the one you first posted. I don't know. I'm taking a neutral position.

Just from the obvious shadow problems...the weird looking shadow....the line...the strange obscurity behind the soldiers. I'm warming up to your view.

cop an Attitude

7th November 2008, 17:05

wow, thats really observaint, did you find this out yourself? well anyways yes most can agree that is photoshoped, those being common errors. maybe he was on vacation :D

Revy

7th November 2008, 17:12

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45184000/jpg/_45184185_df5bfc92-eeef-4b4f-9306-f174b337998f.jpg

This is a closeup of the area near his foot (from a BBC article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7715458.stm)).

The blue lines seem to be added by the BBC to divide the photoshopped area from the real area. See the difference in the pixels.

bcbm

7th November 2008, 17:14

Dude seriously needs to shake up his wardrobe...

chimx

7th November 2008, 21:59

pixels are always a dead giveaway.

Harrycombs

8th November 2008, 00:46

I dunno. Is that stand the same one from the other pictures? If it is, then it must be a photoshop, because of the line. That picture from BBC is pretty condemning too.

Then again, he could be alive:confused:

Rosa Lichtenstein

8th November 2008, 01:09

How could we tell...? :lol:

oblisk

8th November 2008, 01:44

Wrong. Look at the horizontal line on the white stage behind Kim. It stops behind Kim but is there behind the other soldiers and it is there in the other photos. It got erased and whoever photoshopped it forgot to put it back in.

It is you who is wrong.

Take a look at the evidence:

absolutely-corrupt.com/uploads/random/kji1.jpg

This is a photo of the white bench on a different angle, WITHOUT Kim Jong Il in front of it, posed. As you can see, no black line. Evidence that the original photos have not been erased of the black lines.

One may ask, why is there no black line?

Observe:
absolutely-corrupt.com/uploads/random/kji2.jpg

Take a close look to the soldier on Kim Jong Il's left. There seems to be a white board behind Kim Jong Il.

absolutely-corrupt.com/uploads/random/kji2close.jpg

This white board was probably used because the black line did not look so good in photo shoots. Of course, they're not present at all times.

In closing, this was not a photoshop, but a simple photo-prop tool.

The Author

8th November 2008, 02:04

Wow, we're actually reduced to looking at the authenticity of pictures as "objective analysis" to see if a political leader is dead....

Pogue

8th November 2008, 02:08

The great leader never dies but lives on in the hearts and minds of the people.

redguard2009

8th November 2008, 02:25

The shadows are actually easily explainable; if you look at the shadows cast by the Generals in the photo who are also wearing straight-legged pants, most of them cast straight shadows; it is only the shadows of the soldiers wearing the baggier combat pants and boots who have tilted shadows, due to the way their pants tighten up towards their ankles.

Obviously the Kims in the photos are different, but they seem almost too similar -- there is colour discrepency but it's apparent over the whole photo (they are shaded differently). The photos could have been taken on the same occasion.

chimx

8th November 2008, 09:15

The shadows are actually easily explainable; if you look at the shadows cast by the Generals in the photo who are also wearing straight-legged pants, most of them cast straight shadows; it is only the shadows of the soldiers wearing the baggier combat pants and boots who have tilted shadows, due to the way their pants tighten up towards their ankles.

None are as vertical as Kim's, and more importantly, you can't dispute the pixelation differences.

oblisk

8th November 2008, 10:35

None are as vertical as Kim's, and more importantly, you can't dispute the pixelation differences.

Have you read my reply yet?

The another straight shadow on the soldier on the left is straight enough to put aside any discrepancies.

Also, I can't seem to find the original to the picture. This itself is highly suspicious. I did find one on Xinhuanet, but it is low res.

news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-11/05/content_10310320_2.htm

Political_Chucky

8th November 2008, 11:21

Hmmm.... I think they need a new pose....:bored:

Post-Something

8th November 2008, 23:26

This looks shooped. I can tell from some of the pixels and from shooping quite a few whoops in my time.

ÑóẊîöŉ

9th November 2008, 05:45

This looks shooped. I can tell from some of the pixels and from shooping quite a few whoops in my time.

The fact that this sentence did not appear on the first page of this thread astounds me.

OK, so suppose chimx is right and these photos are faked.

Now what?

FreeFocus

9th November 2008, 06:06

He surely won't be missed when he croaks, the tyrannical piece of shit.

I oppose imperialism on all grounds but would not take special care to make note of imperialist powers bullying North Korea (if it was being bombed, then civilians would be murdered, so I would obviously take serious note of that). I couldn't care less about the North Korean government. I feel terrible for North Koreans, though, having to endure one of the worst dictatorships in recent history. The worst part is, they're completely brainwashed into thinking it's not a dictatorship. :(

Sankofa

9th November 2008, 06:09

The worst part is, they're completely brainwashed into thinking it's not a dictatorship. :(

Looks like the United States and North Korea aren't so different after all.

oblisk

9th November 2008, 06:32

I oppose imperialism on all grounds but would not take special care to make note of imperialist powers bullying North Korea (if it was being bombed, then civilians would be murdered, so I would obviously take serious note of that). I couldn't care less about the North Korean government. I feel terrible for North Koreans, though, having to endure one of the worst dictatorships in recent history. The worst part is, they're completely brainwashed into thinking it's not a dictatorship. :(

Evidence? What type of research have you done on the DPRK? Have you studied the works on Kim Il Sung or looked into its history and culture? How do you know that the DPRK is a "dictatorship"? Why would you believe the Western media on this issue?

OK, so suppose chimx is right and these photos are faked.

Now what?
They are not faked. I debunked the entire faked photo conspiracy. I suggest you read my reply.

Rosa Lichtenstein

9th November 2008, 13:05

Wow, that's a huge football team! I bet his side wins every game.

Is he the goalie?

Dust Bunnies

9th November 2008, 13:47

My theory:

If they are photo shopped, he is in deep health trouble. So his bureaucrats will keep up the God image until Kim dies and any internal struggles are done. His son will then be the new God.

Wakizashi the Bolshevik

9th November 2008, 17:00

I hope he's fine, but I fear he's really dead.
For the DPRK this won't probably change much.
There are enough good men to become the next leader: Kim Yong Il, Kim Jong-Nam,...

Junius

9th November 2008, 17:07

Kim Jong-Nam,...

:lol:

benhur

9th November 2008, 19:27

bcbm

9th November 2008, 20:23

They are not faked. I debunked the entire faked photo conspiracy. I suggest you read my reply.

Do you know what "suppose" means? Do you understand the idea of "hypothetical?"

BobKKKindle$

9th November 2008, 21:33

I oppose imperialism on all grounds but would not take special care to make note of imperialist powers bullying North KoreaIf the imperialist powers take control of North Korea they will also be able to expand their influence in China. The imperialist powers are already trying to undermine the Chinese government by sponsoring Tibetan activist groups operating in neighboring countries such as Nepal, and a capitalist Korea orientated towards the interests of the imperialist powers would help them in pursuit of their ultimate objective of subjecting the whole of the Asian region to imperialist dominance. Communists call for the unconditional military defense of North Korea and recognize that in a world dominated by a single aggressive superpower with uncontested military strength, developing nuclear weapons is often one of the only ways a country can retain its national sovereignty and defend itself when faced with the threat of imperialist attack. Although North Korea is a bureaucratic regime which suffers from serious economic problems, we should be aware that many of these problems are not the fault of the government but are the result of other factors such as adverse weather conditions as well as the pressure to direct funds towards military expenditure instead of agricultural improvement, due to the military forces stationed on the border with South Korea. North Korea is still able to provide its citizens with universal access to key services such as education and even a basic standard of healthcare despite shortages, and these advantages would be lost if North Korea fell to imperialism.

ÑóẊîöŉ

9th November 2008, 21:57

They are not faked. I debunked the entire faked photo conspiracy. I suggest you read my reply.

I was not saying they were faked, I was assuming they were for the pruposes of elucidating chimx's point.

KurtFF8

10th November 2008, 04:05

Most likely dead. I find it hard to believe that true socialists still defend the DPRK with things like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_President_of_the_Republic and the fact that the DPRK gave up Marxism a long time ago. It really does a lot for the North Korean working class to have that big of a military amongst massive poverty.

It will be a good day for socialists when the government of the DPRK is no more.

Rosa Provokateur

10th November 2008, 15:03

I don't know if he's dead but North Korea would be better off without him. The man is a fascist; if he's alive then I pray that he recovers and has a change of heart in how he treats his people.

BobKKKindle$

10th November 2008, 15:18

It really does a lot for the North Korean working class to have that big of a military amongst massive poverty.

The US has repeatedly attempted to undermine the North Korean government and provoke conflict on the Korean peninsula, and given the danger of imperialist intervention or encirclement is is understandable why the government has chosen to devote their resources to the military, despite the economic cost of doing so. The government has attempted to minimize the adverse impact of diverting resources to the military by ensuring that military personnel help out with agricultural production and other useful projects such as repairing roads.

It will be a good day for socialists when the government of the DPRK is no more.

Why do you specifically target the North Korean government? There are many countries around the world where the standard of living is much worse and the government is guilty of abuses against its citizens, often with the support of the United States.

Bilan

10th November 2008, 15:22

I don't know if he's dead but North Korea would be better off without him. The man is a fascist; if he's alive then I pray that he recovers and has a change of heart in how he treats his people.

Lets see how that goes.

KurtFF8

10th November 2008, 16:00

The US has repeatedly attempted to undermine the North Korean government and provoke conflict on the Korean peninsula, and given the danger of imperialist intervention or encirclement is is understandable why the government has chosen to devote their resources to the military, despite the economic cost of doing so. The government has attempted to minimize the adverse impact of diverting resources to the military by ensuring that military personnel help out with agricultural production and other useful projects such as repairing roads.

Yeah that's working out great for them..:rolleyes:

It must be embarrassing for the DPRK government when the bourgeois south is doing much better. Granted if they had stuck to Marxism, things may be different.

Why do you specifically target the North Korean government? There are many countries around the world where the standard of living is much worse and the government is guilty of abuses against its citizens, often with the support of the United States.

Because when you look at how the DPRK has developed over the year, it seems quite clear that their situation is as a result of their government. They abandoned socialism long ago for the interests of their leaders and they don't even hide this fact. Most of their literature literally revolves around their two dictators and nothing more. Pure personality cult.

Now there are many factors that drove them to this situation, one indeed being US efforts to undermine the DPRK in favor of the south. Another factor is the abandonment of Marxism for a military dictatorship which has been devistating for their people.

Cuba has also had the US trying to undermine it as well (and some would argue, even more so than the US has tried to undermine the DPRK) and it still takes care of its people.

BobKKKindle$

10th November 2008, 16:11

Because when you look at how the DPRK has developed over the year, it seems quite clear that their situation is as a result of their government.This is incorrect, as North Korea's problems are primarily the result of external or geographical factors which are beyond the government's control. In terms of its topography and climatic conditions North Korea has never been suited to growing foodstuffs and most of the arable land is actually located south of the border, which partly explains why South Korea has never been forced to deal with food crises on the same scale as North Korea. Cuba does not have to deal with these problems, and as a tropical country can easily grow large amounts of foodstuffs. In recent years the climate has been especially harmful and North Korea has also endured a series of floods, which have damaged fields and rural communities, often destroying the harvest, or forcing the peasants to begin the lengthy process of preparing the fields for planting again. In addition, the collapse of the USSR means that North Korea now has to pay the full market price for fertilizers and other goods such as fuel which are widely used in agriculture, a problem which has been intensified by the ongoing embargo.

One of the ways the government has tried to overcome these problems is to develop nuclear weapons, as these can be used as a means of extracting economic concessions from the United States, although in the past the United States has not been willing to keep their side of the bargain even when North Korea has agreed to reduce the size of their arsenal or totally dismantle their nuclear program.

10th November 2008, 17:26

Yeah that's working out great for them..:rolleyes:

It must be embarrassing for the DPRK government when the bourgeois south is doing much better. Granted if they had stuck to Marxism, things may be different.

From a tactical standpoint it's certainly understandable to be funding an army; after all, they are still technically at war with South Korea and face constant pressure from the aligned states.

And it is actually true that for a long time the DPRK was doing better, economically speaking, than the RoK. However, with the collapse of the Soviet Union and that entire trading bloc, as well as terrible weather which exacerbated the crises facing the country, they have really struggled over the past 20 or 30 years (although how well they've handled the situation really is debatable).

Dimentio

10th November 2008, 20:40

The personality cult disqualifies all positive viewpoints about the DPRK. When you are elevating a leader to the status of a deity, you are disproving all checks and balances. I think the main reason why socialist systems have failed to arrive at their goal is that the socialist parties in power have not had any checks and balances formalised into their system.

lvl100

10th November 2008, 22:58

In recent years the climate has been especially harmful and North Korea has also endured a series of floods, which have damaged fields and rural communities, often destroying the harvest, or forcing the peasants to begin the lengthy process of preparing the fields for planting again.

The wonder of 1000`s of agricultural progress is that , if there is enough planning and resources, you can successfully grow crops even on moon.
Tell me, how many dams , canals , irrigation systems, terraforming etc they could created with the resources spend on the pharaonic 30 m statue, huge metro stations with Italian marble and French crystal chandeliers and other megalomaniac constructions which a 3rd to 2nd world developing country needs them as much as I need a fork in my eye.

In addition, the collapse of the USSR means that North Korea now has to pay the full market price for fertilizers and other goods such as fuel which are widely used in agriculture, a problem which has been intensified by on the ongoing embargo. Yes the great wonders of Juche and self-reliance. Even with the embargo , a working industry shoulnd had any problems supplying from China or Russia, Iran or the freelancers.
But that would actually require money, which the self-reliant DPRK cant have without soviet freebies and preferential prices

BobKKKindle$

10th November 2008, 23:11

hey could created with the resources spend on the pharaonic 30 m statueAre you familiar with the concept of being coherent? These projects may appear to be useless and wasteful given that there are other areas where money could have been spent to improve the conditions of the working class, but these projects need to be understood within the context of the Cold War. Following the ceasefire agreement in 1953 both Korean governments faced pressure to try and exceed the achievements of their neighbor and show that their own system was a superior form of social organization, and one of the ways they did this was through huge construction projects which could be visited by foreign observers (the Pyongyang Metro is still one of the city's most popular tourist attractions, and tourists are always impressed by what they see) and widely publicized as examples of wealth and architectural ingenuity. In reality, however, these projects were not the sole concern of the North Korean government and were only initiated after the government had already dealt with other more pressing issues such as land reform, and housing developments, which were at the forefront of the national reconstruction effort after the war, as the imperialist invasion had led to the utter devastation of many cities including Pyongyang, leaving millions of innocent workers with nowhere to live.

lvl100

11th November 2008, 00:32

Are you familiar with the concept of being coherent? These projects may appear to be useless and wasteful given that there are other areas where money could have been spent to improve the conditions of the working class, but these projects need to be understood within the context of the Cold War. Following the ceasefire agreement in 1953 both Korean governments faced pressure to try and exceed the achievements of their neighbor and show that their own system was a superior form of social organization, and one of the ways they did this was through huge construction projects which could be visited by foreign observers

The so called "competion" was nothing more than a cock fight. ROK and DPRK were living in different dimmension already. No humangous building could change that fact.
Not to mention that even the ideea that a socialist state can basically say " fuck the workers we need to raise a statue bigger than Collosus of Rhodes to show how cool we are" is insane.
DPRK wasnt in any way able to afford those kind of pharaonic investments without severly cut on other real useful projects. You know useful for the workers...like keep them alive and not starving in case of a flood.

the Pyongyang Metro is still one of the city's most popular tourist attractions, and tourists are always impressed by what they see Yes, i`m sure those 200-300 tourists /year are extremly impressed.

these projects were not the sole concern of the North Korean government and were only initiated after the government had already dealt with other more pressing issues such as land reform, and housing developments, which were at the forefront of the national reconstruction effort after the war, I`m fully aware that DPRK wasnt a banana republic and "socialism" helped a war devasted DPRK, however the politics were and are way to much centered around the ideology and its leaders than to workers. And that was the main reason of its current situation.
- primitive improvments in agriculture
-highly inefficient industry based on soviet freebies and preferential prices

Juche its a joke. It was meant to keep the status quo of the regime , not self-suficncy.
Its almost comical how the whole country plunged in to dark and everything freezed when the soviets pulled the plug.
KJI should RTFM on Cuba, instead blaming on the weather.

KurtFF8

11th November 2008, 18:27

This is incorrect, as North Korea's problems are primarily the result of external or geographical factors which are beyond the government's control. In terms of its topography and climatic conditions North Korea has never been suited to growing foodstuffs and most of the arable land is actually located south of the border, which partly explains why South Korea has never been forced to deal with food crises on the same scale as North Korea. Cuba does not have to deal with these problems, and as a tropical country can easily grow large amounts of foodstuffs. In recent years the climate has been especially harmful and North Korea has also endured a series of floods, which have damaged fields and rural communities, often destroying the harvest, or forcing the peasants to begin the lengthy process of preparing the fields for planting again. In addition, the collapse of the USSR means that North Korea now has to pay the full market price for fertilizers and other goods such as fuel which are widely used in agriculture, a problem which has been intensified by the ongoing embargo.

One of the ways the government has tried to overcome these problems is to develop nuclear weapons, as these can be used as a means of extracting economic concessions from the United States, although in the past the United States has not been willing to keep their side of the bargain even when North Korea has agreed to reduce the size of their arsenal or totally dismantle their nuclear program.

I understand that there are significant problems that are from external factors, this indeed also explains certain problems Cuba has. I also wouldn't make the silly mistake of claiming that the DPRK should just "do what Cuba does". That would be shallow.

That said, the way in which the DPRK has handled their problems historically hasn't been very socialist in form. Of course a country under that much external pressure does need to defend itself, but the way resources are used in the DPRK has become more harmful to the working class there than helpful. They eveneventually officially gave up Marxism.

Their need to defend themselves has turned their political/economic/military moves into a game of realpolitik at the expense of the masses. There becomes a point in which the security of a state is not equal to "saving the revolution" (which is one of the thigns that lead to problems in the USSR that we could debate in another thread).

From a tactical standpoint it's certainly understandable to be funding an army; after all, they are still technically at war with South Korea and face constant pressure from the aligned states.

And it is actually true that for a long time the DPRK was doing better, economically speaking, than the RoK. However, with the collapse of the Soviet Union and that entire trading bloc, as well as terrible weather which exacerbated the crises facing the country, they have really struggled over the past 20 or 30 years (although how well they've handled the situation really is debatable).

Like I said before, I understand the necessity to have a military to defend a revolutionary government. Cuba would no longer be revolutionary if they abolished the military. But the DPRK has no longer become a place where revolutionary socialism exists as a result of their historical development. I would hardly point to that country as an example of what we're trying to build.

As for them doing better than the RoK, can you give me any sources for thhat (I'm not questioning whether it's true, I'm just interested).

Nothing Human Is Alien

21st November 2008, 04:36

As for them doing better than the RoK, can you give me any sources for thhat (I'm not questioning whether it's true, I'm just interested).The north surpassed the south until the mid-1980's.

Journal of Third World Studies (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3821/is_/ai_n8879856): In a comparison of the economies of North and South Korea, Eui-Gak Hwang, while acknowledging the difficulty of making definitive comparisons due to the unreliability of statistics from North Korea, nevertheless tries to put economic growth on the peninsula into perspective by considering more than just GNP growth rates. Though the impressive growth rates of the 1980s led some to call the South Korean economy miraculous, and though comparisons today make the North Korean economic landscape look bleak indeed, Hwang maintains that in terms of per capita GNP and real standard of living, the southern economy surpassed that of the north considerably later than many would suppose-perhaps only as recently as the mid-1980s. And while the standard of living in South Korea is much higher today than in the north, Hwang points out that disparities in income, wealth, and spending are much higher as well. By many standards (life expectancy, mortality, literacy, access to housing) there may have been little difference between north and south during the "miracle" days of the 1980s and 1990s. Hwang's chapter is a reminder that questions of equality must be considered separately from questions of sheer growth, but his relatively positive assessment of North Korea ("people in the North appear to have a quite high standard of living with well-balanced rations from the government") would surely have to be revisited in light of recent disastrous famines and other serious economic problems. South Korea is facing its own considerable economic difficulties as well, of course, but there are no signs of mass famine and starvation.

CNN (http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2000/korea/story/economy/): North Korea's economy grew much more rapidly during its "Chollima," or "rapid development," movement than South Korea's. For the first quarter-century of independent government, there were consistent indications that North Korea's per capita output surpassed that of South Korea's.

IHT (http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/08/16/business/northecon.php): And while it had surpassed the South in the early years following the 1950-53 Korean War, it is now about the same size as the market value of South Korea's biggest bank, Kookmin Bank.

chegitz guevara

21st November 2008, 07:30

The north surpassed the south until the mid-1980's.

This little fact is what most Koreans living in Japan have North Korean citizenship. After the independence of Korea after WWII, Koreans living in Japan were given a choice of which country (although not Japan) to become citizens of. Most chose the DPRK because it had a stronger economy.

Wakizashi the Bolshevik

21st November 2008, 14:47

I really don't understand those who condemn the DPRK and say they're better of if the government falls.
Than what will happen? The imperialists and capitalists backed by the USA will take over the country and work towards total control over entire Asia.
Capitalism will then be restored. Is that what you want?

KurtFF8

21st November 2008, 16:35

PostAnarchy

21st November 2008, 19:43

Dead or Alive - wanted! Kim Jung Il - for treason against socialism!

Seriously though I really don't care about him personally though I find his regime to be absolutely loathsome.

Nothing Human Is Alien

21st November 2008, 23:16

I don't think that anyone is advocating for the restoration of Capitalism in any country where it has been successfully overthrown. But the fact is that in today's environment, the DPRK isn't doing much for its people and even officially gave up Marxism some time ago.

It's hard to defend keeping the DPRK on the track it's going on right now, as clearly there isn't worker ownership over the means of production and there is certainly not only a cult of personality pervaliant in that country but a culture revolving around the military itself. That doesn't quite seem to be the right path to a stateless classless society in my opinion.

No one (at least I'm not) arguing that anyone stand up for the bureaucracy that rules in north Korea.

But we shouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater. At base, there exists a proletarian state in north Korea (though with great bureaucratic distortions, of course). That has to be defended. It would be the equivalent of refusing to support the Transit Workers Union in New York when its under attack because the president of the union and his cronies are sell-outs.

The way forward for Korea lies in socialist revolution in the south and the ouster of the U.S. army from the peninsula. This will eliminate the rationale for the existence of the bureaucracy and over-sized military in the north, awaken the workers in the workers there, and lay the basis for the ouster of the bureaucrats and the revolutionary reunification of Korea.

KurtFF8

21st November 2008, 23:30

And I don't disagree with that at all. A unified Socialist Korea would certainly solve many of the problems of the DPRK, but that doesn't mean that the DPRK's methods of subsistence are "good" or on the right track.

Also I don't know much about the socialist movement in RoK, I know that it was strong at a point but I'm not quite sure where it is today, know any good sources on that subject?

Robespierre2.0

22nd November 2008, 00:25

I hope the Dear Leader makes a speedy recovery.

Ok, the personality cult is a little silly, and abandoning Marxism-Leninism for Juche was a bad move, but hey, we all make mistakes. I believe overall, North Korea and the Kims have done well for their people and played a progressive role in history.
Though they undoubtedly experienced some hardship in the 90s due to the USSR's collapse, I always treat information concerning them with utmost skepticism- after all, it's been a unipolar world this last decade-and-a-half, and as the world's dominant superpower, America can pretty much tell the world what to think about what's going on in any country in the world, and practically all the time, they'll believe it.

Also, don't mind KJI's Songun policy. Socialist nations, unfortunately, will constantly be at war with the rest of the world either overtly or covertly for as long as capitalism exists. Thus, considering the precarious position of being one of the last surviving socialist state, that the North Korean army serves many, MANY purposes aside from defence such as disaster relief, and that it is surrounded by hostile powers, creating a militarized society is absolutely necessary in order to maintain independence.

Anyways, I hope KJI survives or at least has a worthy successor. I think we are about to see another period analogous to the 20s and 30s where the majority of the world experiences the dark side of liberalism and its decadence and turns towards more extreme ideologies- fascism and communism. Hopefully, we'll see the DPRK begin to gain allies, perhaps making the siege mentality they've had for so long obsolete.

Also, the Pochonbo Electronic Ensemble fucking rocks. I get pumped up every morning listening to 'Dangsini Eopseumyeon Jogukdo Eopta'.

Nothing Human Is Alien

22nd November 2008, 04:53

And I don't disagree with that at all. A unified Socialist Korea would certainly solve many of the problems of the DPRK, but that doesn't mean that the DPRK's methods of subsistence are "good" or on the right track.

No it doesn't, and in fact I argue the opposite: the bureaucracy is a parasitic caste that mismanages the proletarian state and economy and undermines its very existence.

Also I don't know much about the socialist movement in RoK, I know that it was strong at a point but I'm not quite sure where it is today, know any good sources on that subject?

There's not much of a movement anymore. Decades of harsh anti-communist laws have caused that. The National Security Act makes it illegal to even "promote anti-government ideas." Sentences range from prison time to death.

There are some pro-DPRK forces, especially around the universities. There are also some others in existence.

Nothing Human Is Alien

1st December 2008, 21:55

Anyway, on the original topic... it's been determined by a digital-forensics expert that the photo released of Kim Jong Il was not fake:

(From Scientific American)

Last week the state-run North Korean media released what they said were new photographs of Kim Jong-il in a bid to reassure the world that the leader, whose health has been the subject of much speculation, is alive and well. Within days questions were raised by British news agencies, the Times of London (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article5099581.ece) and the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7715458.stm), about the legitimacy of the photos, citing apparent inconsistencies within the images.

But were the photos faked?

We contacted digital-forensics expert Hany Farid, professor of computer science at Dartmouth College and author of a June Scientific American article (http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=digital-image-forensics) on detecting fake images (http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=5-ways-to-spot-a-fake), for his take. In a phrase: More than likely not.

"What the BBC and the Times wrote can be explained," Farid told us. "It's not indicative of tampering." He says: "The BBC pointed to, I think, three or four things that they thought were indicative of tampering. And in the full-resolution image you can see that they're completely wrong." (Farid reviewed the photograph at the request of the Associated Press.)

One alleged manipulation was between the shadow cast by Kim's legs and the shadows cast by the soldiers flanking him—a discrepancy that Farid says can be resolved by accounting for a curvature of the background surface. "If you look closely at the back baseboard, which all the men are standing at, it's actually curved," he says. "So what [the news agencies] are assuming is that that backboard is straight. If that backboard is straight and there's only one light source, they're right, it's hard to explain that difference in the shadow.”

But assuming a curvature, the men would naturally cast different shadows. Farid calculates that only a few inches of background difference would suffice: "the sun is at such a grazing angle, so small differences make huge variations in the length of the shadow."

The BBC also pointed to "apparently mismatched pixels" around Kim's legs. But Farid says that the BBC "did this thing that is very dangerous, which is they zoom and they say, 'Oh look, it's a splice line around his feet,'" indicating that the leader may have been edited in. The problem with such an approach, he says, "is that's all JPEG compression artifacts, and if you actually do the same thing to anyone else's feet you see exactly the same artifacts." Image compression uses a sort of digital shorthand to reduce the size of the files, throwing out certain nuances in favor of approximations that can be somewhat choppy. "What that means is there's a quite a bit of color artifacts when you zoom in like that. So you completely expect those types of thing."

Another discrepancy, a discontinuity in a black line running horizontally behind Kim and the soldiers, could be a removable piece of the baseboard, perhaps to allow access to the bleachers above, Farid says, but he prefers not to make such "qualitative" assessments, relying instead on digital forensics.

"Quantitatively, I ran a number of forensics tools, and there's no cloning, there's no color-filtering artifacts, the lighting is completely consistent, you can explain the shadows," Farid says. "The image was edited, as all images are, because they all get cropped and contrast-enhanced, but other than that, there was just no signs of tampering anywhere."

Of course, that's not to say that North Korea is always up-front with the facts, nor is it to say that the image, if legitimate, proves anything about Kim's health. Even under the best of circumstances, Farid adds, "I never say an image is authentic; I say I can't find traces of tampering. It's a subtle but important distinction."
CREDIT: ASSOCIATED PRESS

Josef Balin

24th December 2008, 11:07

Kim Jong-il has sons that will fight for power. The bureaucracy may try to end the monarchy (that is what it is). Either way, the people will be left out. And the imperialists will try to impose free-market capitalism to replace North Korea's state capitalism. I am all for a socialist revolution to overthrow the authoritarian, but I'm not sure if it's likely even in a period of turmoil where the state has less control. The only way I defend North Korea is from imperialism. When you look at the reality, it's a dictatorship, and not a benevolent one, but a very brutal one.
His sons aren't even in the running. There's no way one of his sons will run the government after Jong.

And Kim Yong-Nam, from my understanding, is generally seen as Kim's successor.

EDIT: And I don't understand the "anti-revisionists" liking the DPRK. Half of the Juche articles I'm reading by Kim Jong-Il are extremely critical of several important parts of Marxism.

"Only when the Juche philosophy is studied in comparison with Marxist philosophy the limitations of which lie in the fact that it regards the development of all things as a process of the history of nature, can its superiority be clearly elucidated."
-Kim Jong-Il, "On Having A Correct Viewpoint and Understanding of the Juche Philosophy"

Wanted Man

24th December 2008, 12:09

Of course, Josef. Juche is a revisionist current. And the WPK has increasingly fallen back to reactionary ideologies like nationalism, militarism, reverence towards authoritative figures as in old traditions, etc. But that hasn't changed the status of the country itself. Nobody is arguing anything else, I think. The idea that anyone "supports Juche" or "likes Kim Jong-il" or whatever is just a strawman from people who are afraid to have a principled discussion on the DPRK, because it feels much better to just dismiss it as the hellhole, the Hermit Kingdom, etc.

Revy

24th December 2008, 14:02

His sons aren't even in the running. There's no way one of his sons will run the government after Jong.

And Kim Yong-Nam, from my understanding, is generally seen as Kim's successor.

EDIT: And I don't understand the "anti-revisionists" liking the DPRK. Half of the Juche articles I'm reading by Kim Jong-Il are extremely critical of several important parts of Marxism.

"Only when the Juche philosophy is studied in comparison with Marxist philosophy the limitations of which lie in the fact that it regards the development of all things as a process of the history of nature, can its superiority be clearly elucidated."
-Kim Jong-Il, "On Having A Correct Viewpoint and Understanding of the Juche Philosophy"

Well, I disagree. The structure is made so it's an absolute hereditary monarchy (which is why power passed to Kim Jong-il in the first place). We are talking about a regime that gives Kim Il-Sung the title "Eternal President" after his death, as if he were some kind of god. Kim Yong-nam only holds a symbolic position.

Kim Jong-chul looks to be the successor. In 2007, Jong-chul was appointed deputy chief of a leadership division of the Workers' Party. None of Kim's sons have that kind of position so it looks like he'll be the heir. The only person who says it won't be is some gossipy chef in Japan claiming to have worked for Kim Jong-il.

Wanted Man

24th December 2008, 14:19

Umm, no, that's not just the position of a gossipy chef in Japan. The only thing that's gossipy is to go "Zomg, the succession has been determined!" whenever one of the kids makes the news. It's just like Sovietology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovietology) in the past, but apparently a lot of leftists still don't learn from history: "Omg, portraits are being removed somewhere, let's turn on the tv to see the interpretation from some guy in a suit!"

The idea that NK is a "monarchy" is nonsense. It's neither an absolute nor a constitutional monarchy, hereditary succession is not entrenched anywhere. Juche has a lot of reactionary aspects like nationalism, militarism, cult of personality, religous backwardsness, etc. But for all its faults, there is no "divine right" or anything.

Call it nepotism, or a family dictatorship, or whatever. But "monarchy" is just a cheap rhetorical device. America also isn't a monarchy because there have been two Bushes in charge.