Could someone tell me about FARC - Could someone tell me a

[crazy comie]

Could someone tell me about FARC

[chamo]

Revolutionary Armed Forces of Columbia (FARC). Marxist guerillas in the jungle, make attacks on Bogota, around 700 members I think. They kidnap businessmen and such.

[crazy comie]

I think they have way more members than that.

[James]

haha, i like that.
You ask for info then you add to it in such a manor. Comedy.

[YKTMX]

Quote: from happyguy on 2:24 pm on May 29, 2003
(FARC). Marxist guerillas in the jungle

Sounds like a premise for a sitcom. I've always found the phrase "marxist guerillas" funny. Also, I'm all for the FARC as it means BBS newsreaders have to say Marxist, which is always fun.

[RedComrade]

There regulars number somewhere around 17,000 if truth be told.

[Som]

I remember the number being about 14,000.

I really haven't heard very much good about them, they have a tendency to be potrayed as drug-funded terrorists only using a former marxist ideology to give them a image of credibility.

I think the most convincing support of this type of thing is that when a western reporter asked their leader why they didn't help the people in the areas they occupy, building roads, hospitals, and the like, he responded "thats the governments job"

[Nobody]

I heard FARC and the Cuban funded group whoses name escapes me pls splinter groups have 50000 fighters altogether, and FARC is the largest.

[dopediana]

the revolutionary armed forces of colombia are described by the us govt as a terrorist organization. thankfully, the usa has recently acknowledged paramilitaries as terrorists.
the farc has such a wide base of support among the common people because they manage to win their hearts and offer them protection from other military organizations (though not always effectively) and help them out with basically what it takes to survive, which is all coca growers really want to do.
shit, i just did a project on all this and there's just so much to say because it's such a complex issue. the reason the usa supports the colombian govt is because they want the drug issue resolved, never mind that all the players (the govt, the paramilitaries, and the farc) profit from the drug trade.

it's a vicious cycle. and it can't be stopped. if we were to cut off the coca production, it would devastate all the farmers who are just trying to make a living. as the FARC is a communist organization, they realize that the market demands coca and opium poppy and that it's the peasants' best bet for survival. to minimize the influence of the FARC, the govt would have to establish a new cash crop. this is practically impossible. it's a choice of appeasing america and that bloody fucker uribe or ensuring the survival of colombian coca growers.

the people can't be blamed for being active in the world market and the farc oughtn't be assaulted for trying to protect the people's interests.

if anyone wants to hear more, tell me and i can fill in any holes. i know i haven't said close to 10% of what can be said

[Liberty Lover]

Fuck the FARC.

They are a terrorist group responsible for a number of abuses including the arbitrary and deliberate killing of hundreds of civilians (http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/amr/colombia!Open), drug trafficking, and the conscription of child soldiers (http://www.child-soldiers.org/cs/childsoldiers.nsf/fffdbd058ae1d99d80256adc005c2bb8/fb4ba63141f2ad9180256c8d003d6787?OpenDocument&Highlight=2,colombia). An estimated 4, 000 people die each year as a result of the FARC’s attempts to keep their narcotics business up and running.

(Edited by Liberty Lover at 9:20 am on May 30, 2003)

[Vinny Rafarino]

Quote: from Liberty Lover on 9:16 am on May 30, 2003
Fuck the FARC.

They are a terrorist group responsible for a number of abuses including the arbitrary and deliberate killing of hundreds of civilians (http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/amr/colombia!Open), drug trafficking, and the conscription of child soldiers (http://www.child-soldiers.org/cs/childsoldiers.nsf/fffdbd058ae1d99d80256adc005c2bb8/fb4ba63141f2ad9180256c8d003d6787?OpenDocument&Highlight=2,colombia). An estimated 4, 000 people die each year as a result of the FARC’s attempts to keep their narcotics business up and running.

(Edited by Liberty Lover at 9:20 am on May 30, 2003)


i just adore the sources these cappies come up with..The UN and Amnesty International. I believe the UN will tell the entire story impartially about as much as I believe the Daily Mirror's "Bat boy found in cave" articles. Did you even bother to read these articles L. L. Fool J.?

Reports were received of direct security force complicity in human rights violations, sometimes in joint operations with paramilitaries.

Citing sources that incriminate your own political group.
Fool.

But wait....It gets even more brilliant....

More than 100 armed men from the paramilitary group Autodefensas Unidas de Colombia (AUC), United Self-Defence Groups of Colombia, had attacked the hamlet of Chengue. They picked out 25 people from a list and hacked them to death with machetes, or shot them. Before they left, the paramilitaries set fire to the hamlet and reportedly seized 10 of the villagers, six of them children; their whereabouts remained unknown at the end of the year. Humanitarian organizations trying to get into the area to help survivors were reportedly turned back by troops of the First Marine Infantry Unit.

I would imagine you wished you had read the article instead of simply "cappie-skimming" it in search of anythingyou can use in a quick post against socialism.
Get the fuck out of here until you learn how to debate PROPERLY.

You say fuck the FARC??

I say fuck you.


(Edited by COMRADE RAF at 10:50 am on May 30, 2003)

[Liberty Lover]

i just adore the sources these cappies come up with..The UN and Amnesty International. I believe the UN will tell the entire story impartially about as much as I believe the Daily Mirror's "Bat boy found in cave" articles. Did you even bother to read these articles L. L. Fool J.?

It takes someone fairly stupid to make an unsubstantiated assertion like this one. Provide me with some evidence that the UNHCR and Amnesty international have falsified information about the FARC. This would include evidence that images of child soldiers are fabricated and interviews with child soldiers staged.

At the very least you could enlighten us all as to why organizations staunchly critical of the United States policy in Colombia and elsewhere would waste time and resources deliberately discrediting an organisation you seem to believe is fighting for justice in Colombia.


Citing sources that incriminate your own political group.
Fool.

This simply indicates the neutrality of the source provided. Are you going to tell me that what is said about my side correct, and what is said about your own incorrect?

Suggestion: Take off your blinkers!

Get the fuck out of here until you learn how to debate PROPERLY.

You’re an Idiot.

[BRIN]

The FARC rebels have 18000 trained millitants,ELN has 4000 trained millitants and the shinning path(maoists)have about 500 members.They are also supported by countless peasants.


They kiddnap approximately 2000 tourists a year and hold them for ransome.


They have been fighting the collumbian goverment for 40 years and they have captured apparently 40% of the country and the cocaine trade has increased 33% in the last 5 years despite american millitary involvment and the use of defolients.


They are being supported with trainers and finance by the IRA .I'm pretty sure that Muamur Gaddafi suports or used to support them.


Thier drug profits range from 100 million to1 billion and i'm pretty sure that theyre the biggest supplyers of cocaine in America.



The collumbian goverment is #1 on the americans foreign aid list and get 800 million from the u$ every year 75% of the aid is wepons though.



Personly i think theyre great and may be latin americas only chance for liberation.


BTW i don't think theyre sponcerd by cuba but theyre trying to make a cuban style revolution

[Liberty Lover]

"They kiddnap approximately 2000 tourists a year and hold them for ransome."

"the cocaine trade has increased 33% in the last 5 years despite american millitary involvment and the use of defolients."

"i'm pretty sure that theyre the biggest supplyers of cocaine in America."

I missed the part about this being "great".

"the shinning path(maoists)have about 500 members."

I always thought the Shining Path were a Peruvian group.

[chamo]

In referrance to my earlier post about the FARC having 700 members, it is dis-information. I mistakenly reported it from a source that was the number of members in a certain area. Sorry.

A rough estimate for their numbers is:
Approximately 9,000 to 12,000 armed combatants and several thousand more
supporters, mostly in rural areas.

[Vinny Rafarino]

I knew I would have to spell it out for you. I gave you too much credit in labeling you simply as a fool.


It takes someone fairly stupid to make an unsubstantiated assertion like this one. Provide me with some evidence that the UNHCR and Amnesty international have falsified information about the FARC. This would include evidence that images of child soldiers are fabricated and interviews with child soldiers staged.[At the very least you could enlighten us all as to why organizations staunchly critical of the United States policy in Colombia and elsewhere would waste time and resources deliberately discrediting an organisation you seem to believe is fighting for justice in Colombia.

This is too easy.

Notice in my original response I never mention that I do not trust the AA website. Now L.L. you must pay close attention here as you may not be smart enough to comprehend what I am saying I made comparisons between the UN and the Daily mirror. The facts I present are from the uncompared AA website. I never once said I disputed their facts. I did this simply because I already knew you would be upset with my post and attempt to combat back with a reactionary defense by making a generalised blanketstatement rather than an educated one. This is exactly what I thought you would do as I am much smarter than you and you performed preceisely to my expectations silly fool. Now I get to embarass you twice.

This simply indicates the neutrality of the source provided. Are you going to tell me that what is said about my side correct, and what is said about your own incorrect?

Citing "neutral" information in a dabate. The concept is completely ridiculous as it defeats the purpose of a debate which is; TO PROVE YOUR THEORY OR VIEWPOINT IS CORRECT WHILE PROVING YOUR OPPONENT'S VIEWPOINT OR THEORY IS FALSE
You my friend are not very smart at all. Why would you ever provide information that will damage the credibility of your own standpoint when I'm sure you could have found web-sites containing information that would only benifit your viewpoint?
again FOOL

Would you like to try again my cretinous friend? I know every step you are going to make before you even make it.

(Edited by COMRADE RAF at 12:50 pm on May 30, 2003)

[Vinny Rafarino]

L.L.

I cannot believe how obtuse you are. All you had to do this time was some quick research before making your statement...

(Statement from comrade)"the shinning path(maoists)have about 500 members."

(statement from the foolish L.L.)I always thought the Shining Path were a Peruvian group.

They are a Peruvian group L.L. I will say this very slowly so you will understand it.

They.....are.....a....Maoist.....group....that.... .are.....from......Peru.....Mao.....was......a.... ...man.......from......China......Maoists.....simp ly.....follow.....his.....brand......of.....social ism......and....can....live.....wherever......they .....want.

Get it now?

[Liberty Lover]

"Notice in my original response I never mention that I do not trust the AA website. Now L.L. you must pay close attention here as you may not be smart enough to comprehend what I am saying I made comparisons between the UN and the Daily mirror. The facts I present are from the uncompared AA website. I never once said I disputed their facts."

Making up words like "uncompared" doesn’t make your posts easy to comprehend.

"I never once said I disputed their facts."

So now you concede that the FARC are involved in the "arbitrary and deliberate killing of hundreds of civilians"?

"I thought you would do as I am much smarter than you and you performed preceisely to my expectations silly fool. Now I get to embarass you twice."

There is nothing funnier than spelling errors like these. Its Precisely and embarrass, you "silly fool".

"Citing "neutral" information in a dabate. The concept is completely ridiculous as it defeats the purpose of a debate which is; TO PROVE YOUR THEORY OR VIEWPOINT IS CORRECT WHILE PROVING YOUR OPPONENT'S VIEWPOINT OR THEORY IS FALSE
You my friend are not very smart at all. Why would you ever provide information that will damage the credibility of your own standpoint when I'm sure you could have found web-sites containing information that would only benifit your viewpoint?
again FOOL"

I was not trying to condone Plan Columbia but denounce the activities of the FARC. Provide me with a quote where I have expressed an opinion about the activities of the Colombian government that is contrary to what is mentioned in the source provided. Alternatively you can stop being the presumptuous arsehole you evidently are.

Regarding my comment on the Shining Path. BRIN seemed to be listing Colombian guerrilla groups, I was curious as to why he included a Peruvian group among them. I would have thought that even a dyslexic like you could have realised this.

[dopediana]

liberty lover,

you insult far too often and provide too little information to support your points. you draw conclusions from warped sources. you have too little compassion to be involved in politics. go back to the swampy mire from whence you came.

resident goddess,
diana

[Anonymous]

you have too little compassion to be involved in politics.

That is the last thing one needs when involved in politics.

[dopediana]

Quote: from Dark Capitalist on 7:51 pm on May 31, 2003
you have too little compassion to be involved in politics.

That is the last thing one needs when involved in politics.

you're uber-wrong on that.

politics decides the fates of enormous numbers of people. people are not things to be used, thrown around, cast aside just so you can reap benefits from them. people have souls and emotions. people deserve to exist safely and healthily in a peaceful world.

the FARC is trying to bring equality and justice to the people of colombia. they kill civilians sometimes. but at the same time, those are the people they are trying to protect. the FARC isn't some big capitalist organization that exploits the people. the FARC is an organization made up of colombians, by colombians, for the colombians. i blame this whole deal on american and european drug consumers for creating a market for coca in the first place.

[Anonymous]

Patterns of Global Terrorism 2001: Latin America Overview (http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/pgtrpt/2001/html/10246.htm) (U.S. Department of State)


Colombia

An increased international awareness of terrorism did nothing to stop or even slow the pace of terrorist actions by Colombia’s three terrorist organizations—the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC), National Liberation Army (ELN), and United Self-Defense Forces of Colombia (AUC)—in 2001. Some 3,500 murders were attributed to these groups.

On 10 September, Secretary of State Colin Powell announced the designation of the AUC as a Foreign Terrorist Organization, citing the AUC’s explosive growth—to an estimated 9,000 fighters by year’s end—and their increasing reliance on terrorist methods such as the use of massacres to purposefully displace segments of the population, as primary reasons for the designation. With this addition, all three of Colombia’s major illegal armed groups have now been designated by the United States as Foreign Terrorist Organizations (the FARC and ELN were designated in 1997). Colombian estimates for 2001 suggested that the AUC was accountable for some 43 percent of Colombia’s internally displaced persons, mostly rural peasants, while the FARC and ELN were responsible for some 35 percent.

In 2001, as in years past, there were more kidnappings in Colombia than in any other country in the world, and the financial transfer from victims to terrorists by way of ransom payments and extortion fees continued to cripple the Colombian economy. The FARC and ELN were purportedly responsible in 2001 for approximately 80 percent of the more than 2,800 kidnappings of Colombian and foreign nationals— including some whose governments or agencies (the UN, for example) were helping mediate the ongoing civil conflict. Since 1980, the FARC has murdered at least ten US citizens, and three New Tribes Missionaries abducted by the FARC in 1993 remain unaccounted for.

The FARC and the AUC continued their deadly practice of massacring one another’s alleged supporters, especially in areas where they were competing for narcotics-trafficking corridors or prime coca-growing terrain. The FARC and ELN struggled with one another for dominance in the bombing of the Cano-Limon-Covenas oil pipeline—combining for an unprecedented 178 attacks which had a devastating ecological and economic impact—with the larger FARC (an estimated 16,000 fighters vs. under 5,000 for the ELN) beginning to gain the upper hand by year’s end.

As in past years, the on-again, off-again peace talks between Bogotá and the FARC or the ELN did not lead to substantive breakthroughs with either group. (As of press time, President Pastrana had broken off talks with the FARC following the group’s 2 February 2002 hijacking of Aires Flight 1891, the abduction of Colombian Senator Jorge Gechen, as well as the separate abduction of presidential candidate Ingrid Betancourt; the Colombian military also had reasserted control over the FARC’s demilitarized zone, or despeje.) Talks with the ELN were ongoing. For its part, the AUC continued to press, without success, for political recognition by the Government of Colombia.

Throughout 2001, Colombia’s government acted against all three terrorist groups through direct military action as well as through legal and judicial means. The Prosecutor General successfully prosecuted many FARC, ELN, and AUC members on domestic terrorism charges. Bogotá also pursued insurgent and paramilitary sources of financing with some success, capturing in a short period in late 2001, for example, four FARC finance chiefs. In May, raids on high-ranking AUC residences in Monteria netted key evidence regarding that group’s financial backers. On a more disturbing note, the Government alleged links between these groups and other terrorist organizations outside Colombia. The capture in August of three Irish Republican Army members who have been charged with sharing their expertise and providing training on explosives in the FARC’s demilitarized zone is perhaps the most notable example.

The Colombian Government has been very supportive of US antiterrorist efforts in international fora, particularly the United Nations and the Organization of American States (OAS). Colombia was one of the region's leaders in the effort to impose sanctions against the Taliban in the United Nations before the events of September 11, and it continues to cooperate in enforcing UNSC and UNGA antiterrorist resolutions, including Resolutions 1267, 1333, and 1368. Colombia also signed the UN Convention on the Suppression of the Financing of Terrorism. In the OAS, Colombia continued to be an active member of the Inter- American Committee Against Terrorism and was selected to chair the subcommittee that deals with monitoring and interdicting terrorist financial flows. Colombia also planned to broaden its capability to combat terrorism within its borders by means of a three-part strategy unveiled in late October. The main components include strengthening the public security forces, modernizing the penitentiary system, and expanding and improving civil and criminal investigation mechanisms. Also included are provisions for the seizure and forfeiture of terrorist assets, reduction of bank secrecy rights, and measures to insulate municipal and departmental finances from corruption. At year’s end, the implementation of this strategy was awaiting passage of additional legislation.

[Guardia Bolivariano]

The only problem I see with the Farc is that some units are getting infiltrated by druglords the minute that happens the unit looses their political agenda an acts the same way rival tribes do in Afganistan.

And that why they get the "terrorism" label , due to generalisation.

Suprisingly not even the fascist paramiliteries are safe from this.

A few weeks ago the their bastard leader Castaño declared that we would fight any unit that woud question his orders.

They call the FARC terrorist but they don't mention the colombian goverment's suport of the AUC organization.

Recently the guerrillas has declared they would create a seperate goverment from Bogota.This will make It even harder to control them.

[dopediana]

anything printed by the US govt is bound to be anti-revolutionary.

true, they've acknowledged the AUC as a terrorist group, but maybe they ought to tell uribe not to let his military hire out to drug lords in their spare time. that would considerably decrease the negative effects of both the AUC and the FARC. meanwhile, colombia could hold new elections withOUT uribe's lackeys holding guns to everyone's heads at the voting booths.

[Guardia Bolivariano]

I still don't get how they can call Uribe an example for latinamerica.

That man is actually negotiating a US intervention in Colombia equal to that of Iraq.

[dopediana]

he's a criminal

uribe won his election with blood.

fortunately, the colombian court denied his request that all military troops be given FUCKING JUDICIAL REVIEW!!! that means that they could make decisions putting innocents' lives at risk. that would justify massacring a town suspected of guerrilla afiliation.

lately, he's also been stripped of certain judicial rights he's given himself.

[Liberty Lover]

Quote: from the amaryllis on 7:48 pm on May 31, 2003
liberty lover,

you insult far too often and provide too little information to support your points. you draw conclusions from warped sources. you have too little compassion to be involved in politics. go back to the swampy mire from whence you came.

resident goddess,
diana


Explain to me how Amnesty International and the Anti-Child Soldiers Colation are "warped" sources.

Explain to me how providing evidence that the FARC conscript child soldiers, traffic drugs and deliberately kill civilians is "too little information" to support my point that they are a terrorist organisation.

Explain to me how you drew the conclusion that I was the one making too many insults, while they were all in retaliation to RAF's. That guy must have called me "fool" about twenty times.

Your enemy,

-Mark

[dopediana]

you know, the FARC probably does enlist teens in their ranks. but it's nothing like in sierra leone where they give 5 y/os drugs and guns and make them slaughter their parents. and when the paramilitary and the military go into towns, they often dress their victims in guerrilla clothing and dump them in locations where they will eventually be found. they do it to literally disguise any "misexecutions." try reading some horror stories about paramilitary massacres. they're very disturbing.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/071400-02.htm
Colombians Tell of Massacre, as Army Stood By

by Larry Rohter


EL SALADO, Colombia -- The armed men, more than 300 of them, marched into this tiny village early on a Friday. They went straight to the basketball court that doubles as the main square, residents said, announced themselves as members of Colombia's most feared right-wing paramilitary group, and with a list of names began summoning residents for judgment.

A table and chairs were taken from a house, and after the death squad leader had made himself comfortable, the basketball court was turned into a court of execution, villagers said. The paramilitary troops ordered liquor and music, and then embarked on a calculated rampage of torture, rape and killing.

"To them, it was like a big party," said one of a dozen survivors who described the scene in interviews this month. "they drank and danced and cheered as they butchered us like hogs."

By the time they left, late the following Sunda afternoon, they had killed at least 36 peoplw whom they accused of collaborating with the enemy, left-wing guerrillas who have long been a presence in the area. The victims, for the most part, were men, but others ranged from a 6-year-old girl to an elderly woman. As the music blared, some of the victims were shot after being tortured; others were stabbed or beaten to death, and several more were strangled.

Yet during the three days of killing last February, military and police units just a few miles away made no effort to stop the slaughter, witnesses said. At one point, they said, the paramilitaries had a helicopter flown in to rescue a fighter who had been injured trying to drag some victims from their home.

Instead of fighting back, the armed forces set up a roadblock on the way to the village shortly after the rampage began, and prevented human rights and relief groups from entering and rescuing residents.

While the Colombian military has opened three investigations into what happened here and has made some arrests of paramilitaries, top military officials insist that fighting was under way in the village between guerrillas and paramilitary forces -- not a series of executions. They also insist that the colonel in charge of the region has been persecuted by government prosecutors and human rights groups. Last month he was promoted to general, even though examinations of the incidents are pending.

What happened in El Salado last February -- at the same time that President Clinton was pushing an aid package to step up antidrug efforts here -- goes to the heart of the debate over the growing American backing of the Colombian military. For years the United States government and human rights groups have had reservations about the Colombian military leadership, its human rights record and its collaboration with paramilitary units.

The Colombian Armed Forces and police are the principal beneficiaries of a new $1.3 billion aid package from Washington. The Colombian government says it has been working hard to sever the remnants of ties between the armed forces and the paramilitaries and has been training its soldiers to observe international human rights conventions even during combat.

"The paramilitaries are some of the worst of the terrorists who profit from drugs in Colombia, and in no way can anyone justify their human rights violations," said Gen. Barry R. McCaffrey, the White House drug policy director. But he said "the Colombian military is making dramatic improvements in its human rights record," and noted that the aid package includes "significant money, $46 million, for human rights training and implementation."

But human rights groups, pointing to incidents like the massacre here, say these links still exist and that mechanisms to monitor and punish commanders and units have had limited success at best.

"El Salado was the worst recorded massacre yet this year," said Andrew Miller, a Latin American specialist for Amnesty International USA, who spent the past year as an observer near here. "The Colombian Armed Forces, specifically the marines, were at best criminally negligent by not responding sooner to the attack. At worst, they were knowledgeable and complicit."

The paramilitary attack on El Salado killed more people and lasted longer than any other in Colombia this year. But in most other respects it was an operation so typical of the 5,500-member right-wing death squad that goes by the name of the Peasant Self-Defense of Colombia that the Colombian press treated it as just another atrocity.

The paramilitary groups were founded in the early 1980's, mostly funded by agricultural interests to protect them from extortion and kidnapping by the left-wing guerrillas. The paramilitary groups were declared illegal over a decade ago, but have continued to operate, often with clandestine military support and intelligence, and in recent years have become increasingly involved in drug trafficking.

Over the past 18 months, more than 2,500 people, most of them unarmed peasants in rural areas like this village in northern Colombia, have died in more than 500 attacks by what the Colombian government calls "illegal armed groups" involved in the country's 35-year-old civil conflict. And according to the government, right-wing paramilitary groups are responsible for most of those killings.

Since the El Salado massacre, nearly 3,000 residents of the area have fled to nearby towns, including El Carmen de Bolívar and Ovejas, as well as the provincial capital, Cartagena. Early this month, more than a dozen of the survivors were interviewed in the towns where they have taken refuge under the protection of human rights groups or the Roman Catholic Church.

Despite efforts to protect them, however, some have recently been killed in individual attacks or have disappeared, actions for which the same paramilitary group that attacked their village has been blamed. As a result, all of the survivors interviewed for this story spoke on condition that their names not be used.

Their accounts, however, coincide with investigations conducted by the Colombian government prosecutor's office and by the Colombia office of the United Nations high commissioner for human rights.

Members of a paramilitary unit had attacked this village in 1997, killing five people and warning that they would eventually come back. Many residents fled then, but returned after a few months believing that they were safe until the death squad suddenly reappeared on the morning of Feb. 18.

"I looked up at the hills, and could see armed men everywhere, blocking every possible exit," a farmer recalled. "They had surrounded the town, and almost as soon as they came down, they began firing their guns and shouting, 'Death to the guerrillas.' "

The death squad troops, almost all dressed in military-style uniforms with a blue patch, made their way to the basketball court at the center of the village. They took tables and chairs from a nearby building, pulled out a list of names and began the search for victims.

"Some people were shot, but a lot of them were beaten with clubs and then stabbed with knives or sliced up with machetes," one witness said. "A few people were beheaded, or strangled with metal wires, while others had their throats cut."

The list of those to be executed was supplied by two men, one of whom was wearing a ski mask. Paramilitary leaders, who have acknowledged the attack on El Salado but describe it as combat with the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, known as the FARC, later said that the two men were FARC deserters who had dealt with local people and knew who had been guerrilla sympathizers.

"It was all done very methodically," one witness said. "Some people were brought to the basketball court, but were saved because someone would say, 'Not that one,' and they would be allowed to leave. But I saw a woman neighbor of mine, who I know had nothing at all to do with the guerrillas, knocked down with clubs and then stabbed to death."

While some paramilitaries searched for people to kill, others were breaking into shops and stealing beer, rum and whiskey. Before long, a macabre party atmosphere prevailed, with the paramilitaries setting up radios with dance music and ordering a local guitarist and accordionist to play.

In addition, a young waitress from a cantina adjoining the basketball court was ordered to keep a steady supply of liquor flowing. As the armed men grew drunk and rowdy, they repeatedly raped her, along with several other women, according to residents and human rights groups.

As night fell, some residents fled to the wooded hills above town. Others, however, stayed in their homes, afraid of being caught if they tried to escape, unable to move because they had small children, or convinced that they would not be harmed.

Saturday was more of the same. "All day long we could hear occasional bursts of gunfire, along with the screams and cries of those who were being tortured and killed," said a woman who had taken refuge in the hills with her small children.

Of the 36 people killed in town, 16 were executed at the basketball court. An additional 18 people were killed in the countryside, residents and human rights workers said, and 17 more are still missing, making for a death toll that could be as high as 71.

By Friday afternoon, however, news of the slaughter had spread to El Carmen de Bolívar, about 15 miles away. Relatives of El Salado residents rushed to local police and military posts, but were rebuffed.

"We made a scandal and nearly caused a riot, we were so insistent," said a 40-year-old-man who had left El Salado early on Friday because he had business in town. "But they did nothing to help us."

Not only did the armed forces and the police not come to the aid of the villagers here, but the roadblock they set up prevented humanitarian aid from entering the village. Anyone seeking to enter the area was told the road was unsafe because it had been mined and that combat was going on between guerrilla and paramilitary units.

In a telephone interview, three Colombian Navy admirals said that residents of El Salado were accusing the military of complicity in the massacre because they had been coerced by guerrillas." The roadblock was set up, they said, to prevent more deaths or injuries to civilians.

"At no point was there collaboration on our part, nor would we have permitted their passage" through the area, Adm. William Porras, the second in command of the Colombian Navy, said of the death squad unit. "We never at any point were covering up for them or helping them, as all the subsequent investigations have shown."

But local residents, Colombian prosecutors investigating the massacre and human rights groups say there was no combat. Villagers say that the armed forces had not been in the center of El Salado recently, and that they had left the outlying areas a day before. Residents also say they had passed over the dirt road that Friday morning and there were no mines.

"The army was on patrol for two or three days before the massacre took place, and then suddenly they disappeared," recalled a 43-year-old tobacco farmer. "It can't be explained, and it seems very curious to me."

What has been established is that the villagers were simple peasants, and not the guerrillas the paramilitary leader says his troops were fighting. "It is quite clear that these were defenseless people and that what they were subjected to was not combat, but abuse and torture," said a foreign diplomat who has been investigating.

Residents said the paramilitaries felt so certain that government security forces would stay away that late on Friday they had a helicopter flown in. It landed in front of a church and picked up a death squad fighter who was injured when a family he was trying to drag out of their house to be taken to the basketball court resisted.

In a report published last February, Human Rights Watch found "detailed, abundant and compelling evidence of continuing close ties between the Colombian Army and paramilitary groups responsible for gross human rights violations." All told, "half of Colombia's 18 brigade-level units have documented links to paramilitary activity," the report concluded.

"Far from moving decisively to sever ties to paramilitaries, Human Rights Watch's evidence strongly suggests that Colombia's military high command has yet to take the necessary steps to accomplish this goal," the report stated.

At the time of the El Salado massacre, the senior military officer in this region was Col. Rodrigo Quiñones Cárdenas, commander of the First Navy Brigade, who has since been promoted to general. As director of Naval Intelligence in the early 1990's, he was identified by Colombian prosecutors as the organizer of a paramilitary network responsible for the killings of 57 trade unionists, human rights workers and members of a left-wing political party.

In 1994, Colonel Quiñones and seven other soldiers were charged with "conspiring to form or collaborate with armed groups." But after the main witness against him was killed in a maximum security prison and the case was moved from a civilian court to a military tribunal, the colonel was acquitted.

According to the same investigation by Colombian prosecutors, one of Colonel Quiñones's closest associates in that paramilitary network was Harold Mantilla, a colonel in the Colombian Marines.

Today, Colonel Mantilla is commander of the Fifth Marine Battalion, which operates in the area around El Salado and is one of the units said by residents and human rights workers to have failed to respond to appeals for help.

After the paramilitary unit left El Salado, the police captured 11 paramilitaries northeast of here on the ranch of a drug trafficker who is in prison in Bogotá. Along with four others who were arrested separately, they are facing murder charges, but their leaders and most of the others who carried out the killings remain free.

More than four months after the massacre, El Salado is virtually deserted. Only one of the town's 1,330 original residents was present when a reporter and human rights workers visited early this month, and he said the village remains as it was the day the death squad left, except for the two mass graves on a rise near the basketball court where the bodies were buried and later exhumed for investigators.

The tables and chairs used by the paramilitary "judges," smashed or overturned as they left, are still strewn across the basketball court.

"I don't know if the people are ever going to want to come back again," the resident said. "What happened here was just too terrible to bear, and we didn't deserve it."

------

i'm naturally going to side with RAF, because he rawks and you kind of don't. and because in plain terms, i dislike you. and i'm quite glad that the feeling is mutual.

and just give me the word and i'll find even more horror stories for you.

love you too,
diana

[Vinny Rafarino]

making up words like "uncompared" doesn’t make your posts easy to comprehend."

You're right. uncompared is not a word. I'm surprised you even cought this. You must have taken a night off from playing D&D in your mother's basement to pore over a dictionary looking for anything that will take the attention away from your ludicrous arguments. I would imagine you are having difficulties understanding my posts simply because you are an imbecile.

now you concede that the FARC are involved in the "arbitrary and deliberate killing of hundreds of civilians"?

I did not know we were debating that fact. Even FARC themselves do not deny it. In order for any military action to succeed, ALL parties must feel the grip of war.
And so far as the silly yanquees getting clipped, perhaps they should not travel to a foreign country to attempt to "free" the "primitive" tribes from their pitiful existence of farming without having ESPN.
"O mi corizone!! NO ESPN!! What an outrage!! Grab your bibles!! Without Jesus and football there is no possible way they can be happy!!

There is nothing funnier than spelling errors like these. Its Precisely and embarrass, you "silly fool".

Is this the best you can do? I am fully aware of how to spell these words. You will find MANY spelling errors on this forum. Why?? We don't care about that, especially when you are typing. If you wish we can arrange for Auntie M to get you a little trophy for your efforts...Perhaps a cookie and a nice glass of warm milk would do the trick?? (now you have to check all of your posts I suppose. I'm sure you wouldn't want to get caught misspelling anything after this post now would you?) I can guarantee my academic credentials far surpass yours simply based on the ineffectualness of your posts (better get that dictionary out tough guy!)

I was not trying to condone Plan Columbia but denounce the activities of the FARC. Provide me with a quote where I have expressed an opinion about the activities of the Colombian government that is contrary to what is mentioned in the source provided.

Now this comment is actually thought out. How long did it take you to write? I would imagine you probably had help from mummy and daddy. However, when pointing out what you perceive are crimes being commited by the opposing faction on a politically themed message board, it's probably a GOOD IDEA for the political party you support to not be guilty of the same "crimes". I wouldn't expect you to understand this "far reaching" concept however, given your obvious lack of intelligence.

Regarding my comment on the Shining Path. BRIN seemed to be listing Colombian guerrilla groups, I was curious as to why he included a Peruvian group among them.

Too little too late. Nice attempt though....

I would have thought that even a dyslexic like you could have realised this.

I'm not dyslexic. I just don't care. Try harder little one...you almost got me rattled.

Alternatively you can stop being the presumptuous arsehole you evidently are.

Don't be angy that I'm smarter than you. It's genetics mate. If you are any indication of the intellectual capacity of the capitalists, we won't even need firearms during the revolution. A steady supply of shiny things should keep you all occupied long enough for us be victorious.


(Edited by COMRADE RAF at 3:19 am on June 1, 2003)

[dopediana]

and hey, look-ee here, LL. something from our lovely amnesty internat'l. and while they condone the ELN and FARC kidnappings, they generally kidnap tourists and any govt officials they can get their red hands on, while the colombian govt. tortures and kills union leaders and people who actually try to do some good.

but without further ado:
http://www.commondreams.org/news2001/1011-07.htm
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
OCTOBER 11, 2001
6:09 PM
CONTACT: Amnesty International



Colombia: Stop the Massacres. Stop the Military Aid


WASHINGTON - October 11 - The two most recent massacres carried out in the past few days by paramilitaries in the northern department of Magdalena and south-western department of Valle del Cauca demonstrate ever more clearly why it is imperative to stop military aid from reaching the Colombian army and their paramilitary allies, Amnesty International said today.

"The only way to stop fueling the human rights crisis in Colombia is to stop pouring military aid into the country," the organization added, at a time when the US Senate is about to debate military aid to Colombia.

"It is inexcusable to continue sending military aid while the Colombian government has not only failed to fully implement reiterated UN recommendations to confront the human rights crisis -- especially in relation to combating and dismantling paramilitary groups -- but has passed legislation which threatens to worsen the situation," Amnesty International said.

"Unconditioned military aid, over which there is little end-use control, sends a clear signal to the Colombian army that it is free to pursue its counter-insurgency strategy -- of which paramilitary groups and their "dirty war" tactics are an integral part -- thus permitting the continuation of the systematic and widespread violation of human rights," the organization said. "It also has sent a dangerous message to the Colombian government that its failure to fully implement UN recommendations to confront impunity, combat and dismantle paramilitary groups and guarantee the safety of human rights defenders is not an impediment to continued aid."

Amnesty International noted that these two massacres occurred shortly after the Colombian government ratified a National Defense and Security Law which severely restricts the capacity of the Office of the Procurator General to initiate disciplinary investigations and provides the armed forces, in some circumstances, with judicial police powers, which could facilitate the cover up of serious human rights violations.

The Law was passed at a time when several high-ranking officers were implicated in judicial and disciplinary investigations into cases of serious human rights violations and massacres committed by paramilitary forces operating in unison with the security forces.

"It is clear that the flow of US military aid is encouraging the Colombian government to bolster the mechanisms of impunity to protect the perpetrators of human rights violations," Amnesty International said.

Background On 10 October 2001, the bodies of 10 fishermen who had been shot dead were found near Santa Marta in the northern Magdalena Department. They were reportedly in a group of 20 fishermen attending a party in Ciénaga Grande de Santa Marta who were abducted by army-backed paramilitaries belonging to the Autodefensas Unidas de Colombia, AUC, United Self-Defense Groups of Colombia. The whereabouts of the remaining 10 are unknown.

The second massacre took place in the communities of La Habana and Alaska, in the municipality of Buga, southwestern Valle del Cauca department. It is reported that army-backed AUC paramilitaries entered the two communities and forced several families out of their homes. They separated the men from the women and children, made them lie face-down on the ground and shot them dead. It is thought that at least 18 people were killed during the paramilitary incursions.

In the context of Colombia's long-running internal conflict between the security forces in alliance with paramilitary forces and armed opposition groups, both sides have shown flagrant disregard for human rights and international humanitarian law.

The security forces has pursued a counterinsurgency strategy characterized by the systematic and widespread violation of human rights. Civilians in conflict zones accused of being guerrilla sympathizers or collaborators have subsequently been the victim of extrajudicial executions, "disappearance" and other serious human rights violations at the hands of the security forces and their paramilitary allies.

Guerrilla forces, of which the Fuerzas Armadas Revolucionarias de Colombia, FARC, Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, and the Ejército de Liberación Nacional, ELN, National Liberation Army, are the largest, have also been responsible for frequent and numerous deliberate or arbitrary killings and threats against those whom they consider to be collaborating with their enemies. They are also responsible for around 57% of the over 3,000 estimated cases of kidnapping and hostage-taking recorded in the country a year.

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Quote: from the amaryllis on 3:03 am on June 1, 2003
you know, the FARC probably does enlist teens in their ranks. and when the paramilitary and the military go into towns, they often dress their victims in guerrilla clothing and dump them in locations where they will eventually be found. they do it to literally disguise any "misexecutions."




The Farc do recruit underaged people but they are usualy betwen 15 and 17 and they go willingly they aren't slaves.










Some opf them do It to avenge their family menbers killed by paramiliteries.

As for the fake guerrilla dead the paramiliteries also tend to dump the bodies near venezuelan army chek points and stage small clashes with venezuelan national guards to make us think that the guerrillaas are behind the killings.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Explain to me how you drew the conclusion that I was the one making too many insults, while they were all in retaliation to RAF's. That guy must have called me "fool" about twenty times.

Ohhhhh poor little lad!!
Stop whining.

Now I will move on to D.C. He's a twat but at least he's a smart twat.

On 10 September, Secretary of State Colin Powell announced the designation of the AUC as a Foreign Terrorist Organization, citing the AUC’s explosive growth—to an estimated 9,000 fighters by year’s end

Who cares what this Uncle-Tom thinks. Simply because "he" designates them as a terrorist organisation does not make it a reality.

The FARC and ELN were purportedly responsible in 2001 for approximately 80 percent of the more than 2,800 kidnappings of Colombian and foreign nationals— including some whose governments or agencies (the UN, for example) were helping mediate the ongoing civil conflict.

Now DC....this is a war you know.

Since 1980, the FARC has murdered at least ten US citizens, and three New Tribes Missionaries abducted by the FARC in 1993 remain unaccounted for.

I believe I touched on this before. If you do not want to be killed or kidnapped, don't go to a warzone, especially if you are not wanted by the populace to begin with.

The FARC and the AUC continued their deadly practice of massacring one another’s alleged supporters, especially in areas where they were competing for narcotics-trafficking corridors or prime coca-growing terrain.

President Pastrana had broken off talks with the FARC following the group’s 2 February 2002 hijacking of Aires Flight 1891, the abduction of Colombian Senator Jorge Gechen, as well as the separate abduction of presidential candidate Ingrid Betancourt; the Colombian military also had reasserted control over the FARC’s demilitarized zone, or despeje.)

Hmm. I would think that hijacking an airliner was a good indication that "peace talks" are now broken off. You know those silly capitalists though...Always wanting the last word. Infantile.

[Kapitan Andrey]

First time I agree with LL!!!

FARC is Narco-Terrorists!!! They arn't revolutioneers!!!

Colombia need a 4-th force - "True Revolutioneers"!!! They mustn't:

1) Stole people for revard!
2) Kill innocents!
3) Produce/use/sell narcotics!!!

Them must:

1) Defend innocents!
2) Destroy FARC/ Para Militares / Narco Baron / Corrupted Govt. forces!!!
3) Create a new coutry of law!!!

[Vinny Rafarino]

The indicviduals in question were hardly innocent. They were subversionists to the movement. We got to Toughen this comrade up.

[Liberty Lover]

"Is this the best you can do? I am fully aware of how to spell these words. You will find MANY spelling errors on this forum. Why?? We don't care about that, especially when you are typing. If you wish we can arrange for Auntie M to get you a little trophy for your efforts...Perhaps a cookie and a nice glass of warm milk would do the trick??"

The irony of your spelling errors is that they were made while in the process of labelling someone else a fool. Kind of like if a person who was in the process of intentionally inflicting death on another accuses a passer by of being a murderer.

"You must have taken a night off from playing D&D in your mother's basement to pore over a dictionary looking for anything that will take the attention away from your ludicrous arguments."

I’m not quite sure what "D&D" is (it sounds like some sort of illicit drug) but I can say with certainty that my argument, which is backed by credible sources, far exceeds your own. In fact you don’t seem to be putting forward an argument at all, all I’ve received from you is a load of Ad Hominem drivel that in no way refutes my claims about the FARC. I guess this to be expected from people with emotional problems like you, who use socialism as a crutch to avoid facing reality.

"However, when pointing out what you perceive are crimes being commited by the opposing faction on a politically themed message board, it's probably a GOOD IDEA for the political party you support to not be guilty of the same "crimes". I wouldn't expect you to understand this "far reaching" concept however, given your obvious lack of intelligence."

Another excellent exemplification of your stupidity. If you had read my post you would have noticed my request of you to "provide me with a quote where I have expressed an opinion about the activities of the Colombian government that is contrary to what is mentioned in the source provided".

"Don't be angry that I'm smarter than you."

You are exceptionally intelligent...for a grinning, drooling chimp with a gaping hole in its head. Get a glass belly button; that way, if your head goes any further up your ass, you can still look out and see what the rest of the world is up to.

You have consistently attacked my character in order to avoid discussing the issues at hand. Rather than resort to your inane level I will reinforce my case with this article by Jo Becker, Children's Rights Advocacy Director, Human Rights Watch:

"Before December 1999, child soldiers were active in every part of Colombia's armed conflict - as part of the national armed forces, the government-linked paramilitaries, and the guerrilla. Their numbers probably exceeded 25,000. 16,000 of these were part of Colombia's national armed forces. However, in part as a result of heightened international awareness about the child soldier's issue, in 1999 the government raised its recruitment age to 18 and began demobilizing children in its ranks.

Children still make up a significant portion of guerrilla forces and paramilitaries, however, and there are probably 6,000-10,000 children currently fighting. The guerrillas refer to child soldiers as "little bees" for the ability and power to sting. The paramilitaries call them "little bells" because they are deployed in front to draw fire, detect traps and serve as an early warning system. In the cities, child members of militaries are called "little carts" because they ferry drugs and weapons without raising suspicion.

Children around the world join armed groups for many reasons. We've found that many of these are at play in Colombia: - Some are enticed by recruiters who come to school and offer stories of excitement and adventure; - Some join because they are promised a wage or their family is offered guarantees of security; - Some join because they want to defend their families from attack; - Some runaways join because of family violence or losses; - Some girls join because they fall in love with guerilla boys; - Some are virtually born into the guerrilla because their parents are members; - Some are forcibly recruited. Paramilitaries force families to provide children for service or risk being killed as suspected guerilla sympathizers. Last year, a group of paramilitaries seized a youth detention center and abducted ten children.

Paramilitaries use children as young as eight to patrol with units, for spying, and as backup troops. The guerrilla use children to collect intelligence make and deploy mines, serve as advance troops in ambush attacks, and to kidnap and guard hostages. These children are often fully armed. One 13-year old girl reported that she had used pistols, AK-47s, Galils, M-16s, R-15s, Uzis, Ingrams, and a 357 Magnum.

One difference between Colombia and Burma is that while in Burma, recruitment is exclusively of boys, in Colombia, girls are a significant percentage - as high as 30% - of both guerilla and paramilitary forces. Girls are frequently subjected to sexual abuse, often by middle-ranking officers. We have also received reports that the FARC fit young girls with IUDs or give them contraceptive injections.

In many conflicts involving children, we've seen the involvement of drugs as a way of reducing a child's inhibitions to fight. This is also the case in Colombia, where some children have reported drinking milk mixed with gunpowder. One boy in the guerilla said, "Gunpowder gives you more energy, like with the desire to kill the troops passing in front of you. You say to yourself, "I hope they come my way, and then you load up and shoot off a round and feel more capable, with better morale."

the amaryllis,

Care to explain how the article you provided refutes my claims about the FARC? It seems to be doing the contrary: Guerrilla forces, of which the Fuerzas Armadas Revolucionarias de Colombia, FARC, Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, and the Ejército de Liberación Nacional, ELN, National Liberation Army, are the largest, have also been responsible for frequent and numerous deliberate or arbitrary killings and threats against those whom they consider to be collaborating with their enemies. They are also responsible for around 57% of the over 3,000 estimated cases of kidnapping and hostage-taking recorded in the country a year.

Stop avoiding the issue: This thread is not about Plan Colombia it is about the FARC!

(Edited by Liberty Lover at 6:56 am on June 1, 2003)

[Soul Rebel]

It is about Plan Colombia because by sending down money the U.S. government is supporting what is happening down there. The money doesnt go to stop drugs- it all goes to the paramilitaries, who then buy 5 billion worth of weapons to use on humanitarian groups such as the OFP. If the U.S. really wants to help they should give the money to these humanitarian groups who would put it to good use, such as educational programs. So until the U.S. stops funding the civil war down there nothing is going to change.

[Anonymous]

The FARC and ELN were purportedly responsible in 2001 for approximately 80 percent of the more than 2,800 kidnappings of Colombian and foreign nationals— including some whose governments or agencies (the UN, for example) were helping mediate the ongoing civil conflict.

Now DC....this is a war you know.

No, this is an ongoing rebel insurgency orchestrated buy a drug trafficking terrorist organization. Even if was a real war, there would still be no reason to kidnap U.N. mediators.


Since 1980, the FARC has murdered at least ten US citizens, and three New Tribes Missionaries abducted by the FARC in 1993 remain unaccounted for.

I believe I touched on this before. If you do not want to be killed or kidnapped, don't go to a warzone, especially if you are not wanted by the populace to begin with.


The report doesn't state the location of these people when they were murdered and/or abducted. Also, I really don't see how three missionaries constitute a threat to the FARC, nor do I see why the populace woudn't want them there.


The FARC and the AUC continued their deadly practice of massacring one another’s alleged supporters, especially in areas where they were competing for narcotics-trafficking corridors or prime coca-growing terrain.

President Pastrana had broken off talks with the FARC following the group’s 2 February 2002 hijacking of Aires Flight 1891, the abduction of Colombian Senator Jorge Gechen, as well as the separate abduction of presidential candidate Ingrid Betancourt; the Colombian military also had reasserted control over the FARC’s demilitarized zone, or despeje.)

Hmm. I would think that hijacking an airliner was a good indication that "peace talks" are now broken off. You know those silly capitalists though...Always wanting the last word. Infantile.

It says Pastrana broke off talks with the FARC following the hijacking/abductions. Which indicates to me that they were still negotiating even after these events had taken place.

[BRIN]

What the FARC guerrillas do is by far not as evil as what the american goverment does to them and the collumbian people.I read a article a while ago and apparently the americans are using herbicides against the cocaine but its also killing off crops,live stock and poisoning the water supply thus killing the collumbian people.



BTW i'm sorry about mentioning the shinning path i realize now that theyre not collumbian