Sasha
8th November 2008, 20:56
impresive part of an interview with marcos about the position of women in the EZLN and Chiapas,
sorry for the long read but wel worth it:
Interviewers: Well, one of the things that we are most concerned about - specifically the companeras - are the gender politics within the EZLN. You facilitated our being able to interview a number of compan~eras and we have seen - to the point that you have allowed us to see [laughs] - that there exists an equality. This can be seen clearly. The women say it themselves: My partner, - or in the case of those who are married - My husband washes his things, does his work, does his part. And when you ask her if she has children, she says, Yes, I already have mine, my M-16. Things like this show that yes, there is an equality that exists, at least in practice. The single compan~eras that we've interviewed also tell us they do the same work as the men, that they aren't limited to working as nurses or in the kitchen as a result of being women. We would like you to tell us, as spokesperson of the EZLN: What are the politics of the EZLN towards gender issues?
Marcos: Look, there are many problems. I am speaking of the companeras. . . above all in the civilian population, the civilians have continued practicing many ancestral customs that don't belong in even a pre-revolutionary situation. For example, many still believe that the man should choose the woman that he wants to marry, but that the woman should have no choice in the matter. The difference, including the physical difference, between the civilian women and the combatant women is very clear. At the age when many of the combatant women have, as you say, an M-16, many civilian women already have four or five children, are beaten by their husbands; they don't know how to read or write, they have no opportunity to develop themselves as people. What the compan~eras say is that they cannot have their equality decreed from above, they have to achieve it through struggle. They say, You can like it or not, but now we are going to change these things. By force. That's why in our list of demands to the government, it doesn't mention anything about gender. The companeras say, We aren't going to ask the government to give us freedom, nor are we going to ask you male fools. We are going to ensure our freedom, our respect and our dignity as women and as human beings. I'm speaking of the companeras. . . They also criticize us, the men, for our sexist or authoritarian attitudes. For example, in relationships between combatants, many things have changed, things that haven't changed in the civilian population. For example, in the civilian population, when a woman marries, she is no longer allowed to dance. She is married, and dances are places where single people meet and decide to get married. If she is married, then she doesn't dance because now she is somebody's property. Amongst the civilians it is still this way. Amongst the combatants, no, the combatants dance whether they are married or single, and it is very common that the woman chooses her dancing partner. They dance just to dance, to have fun, without any other motive such as to sleep with someone or have a relationship.
The politics of gender in the EZLN, among the regular forces. . . There isn't a politic of gender, there are only combatants. There are women soldiers and there are men soldiers, but in the end they are soldiers. In order to rise to a command position, in order to rise in rank or to carry out actions and missions, we take into account the soldier's apptitudes; it doesn't matter whether they are male or female. Many times, in our daily life as combatants, in couple relationships, sexist attitudes are reproduced and because of this our laws tend to favor the woman. It is very common for couples to fight physically when they fight. Let's say that the difference between the women combatants and civilian women is that the women combatants hit back [laughter].
Interviewers: They defend themselves.
Marcos: Yes, it's common that it's the man who comes to us complaining that his partner hit him. We have to be very cautious in this respect because both are armed, if it occurs to one of them to shoot the other. . . A blow is much different than a gunshot. For us - for me it's very clear, and I believe that it's clear to many compan~eras as well - that equality isn't something that's conceded. You can't say, I as a man am going to give you your freedom and now we are going to be equal. That's not true, of course. In the same way, the government can't concede us our rights as indigenous peoples, we have to fight for them. The women are also fighting for them, many times in very radical ways. I believe that they've achieved many things inside the combat forces and inside the civilian population. For example, men who had never received orders from a women, who couldn't stand it when women would give them orders in the mountains. . . When they saw them fighting, they saw that the compan~eras knew how to fight. They look on them with respect now because they realized that the women knew how to fight and they didn't. They saw them facing death and they stopped being women. They stopped being women in the classic sense of the term, weak and unable to. . .
Interviewers: Women in the pejorative sense.
Marcos: It could be also that you see a women and you think that she's only there to sleep with. But when it changes to, She's going to give me orders and I have to obey her, or I'm going to give her orders and she is going to obey me, in that moment you stop being a female combatant or a male combatant and you become a soldier, equals. I'm not saying that the women stop being women and become men, but that both women and men stop being what they are and become combatants. Since we are soldiers all the time - we aren't able to take vacations - it is very difficult to tell when one is acting in the role of combatant and when one is off-duty. I believe that this has brought more benefits to the compan~eras than to the sexists, to us men, in the sense that this equality in combat, in work is transmitted to other aspects of life. Interviewers: Do you accept the analysis that we live in a patriarchal society, that men have controlled society for centuries and that this is also part of the system that feeds Capital, that feeds the bourgeoisie?
Marcos: Definitely!
Interviewers: We must rise above this and the sexist attitudes that we hold.
Marcos: Definitely! There are companeros who are very revolutionary politically, but who are real assholes in relationships, in marriages, in relationships between men and women. But, I believe that changes in this aren't going to be our concession - I'm speaking as a man. The women are going to change things whether we like it or not, despite our close-mindedness. It is the same thing as we are doing with respect to the government. The government doesn't like the fact that the indigenous peoples have risen up, but we did it. The sexists don't like the fact that the women are doing what they are doing, but they are going to do it and that's that. They have fought in combat, they even won. Some of them led sucessful missions, they won, they defeated men. They commanded entire units of men. The EZLN is composed of about two-thirds men and one-third women. It is very common to have military units where the only woman is the commander; the entire unit, all of her subordinates are men. This caused many problems before January first.
Interviewers: And these problems were eliminated?
Marcos: They finally saw that yes, that what was important wasn't that they were women but that they had learned during their years in the mountains to lead the same as any man.
Interviewers: We have seen this. We have met many women captains during our stay here in the liberated territories. We have met many female captains and this demonstrates the truth of what you are saying. . .
Marcos: The male captains hide themselves [laughter]. No, that's not true.
Interviewers: Continuing along this same subject. . . We have seen that there is also a cultural difference, a difference in tradition. You said this also, at the beginning when you spoke of your links to the indigenous communities. Many of the companeras have told us that they aren't allowed to have sex until they are married, that there is a regulation that says that they must be married. If they like a man and they want to sleep with him, it's easier to marry him. We're not speaking of a religious marriage, but that you, the EZLN, expediate some form of marriage. . . But we feel this to be a little puritanical, as if to say, You can't have sex because you are a woman and you have to be married.
Marcos: No, no, it's that marriage for us means that you are a couple and you have permission. Let me explain. When you are going to have a sexual relationship. . . During the day you can't have sex, you're working. The most logical thing is that you are going to sleep with someone at night. You have to advise the commander that you are going to be having sex somewhere, because if you are attacked the commander has to look for you and. . . We tell the combatants, You have to trust the commanders to tell them that you are sleeping with someone. Why? It doesn't matter to me, I'm not going to watch you, I'm not a voyeur. It isn't like that. What I'm interested in is that I have someone covering your position. If we are attacked, we can't have the entire defensive line having sex. Well, it could happen, but it shouldn't happen. We don't demand that they are married.
Interviewers: You mean a woman can have sexual relations freely?
Marcos: Yes, what she is told is to follow a birth-control method. That's why she is told to let us know, so that she can follow a method. Because if you become pregnant. . . you can't stay in the mountains pregnant, you have to go to town, go abort there. It has already happened; there are companeras that abort on the long walks that. . . Then, the method has to be followed, you have to look after yourself. Only when the army says, Now it's possible to have children and remain in the mountains or at some positions, only then will it cease to be an issue. But, yes, the nurses are asked to be checking for pregnancy.
Interviewers: Yes, they told us that there is. . .
Marcos: But there is no formal procedure. You do have to ask the commanders for permission, but it's not as if. . .
Interviewers: As if it's mandatory to be married to have sex, or anything like that.
Marcos: No, no.
Interviewers: Simply put, it's more a matter of coordination, to...
Marcos: Yes, a military question. You let the commanders know, but generally no, they don't get married to have sex.
Interviewers: They can have sexual relations freely?
Marcos: In fact, they have sex and then they say, Well, not this one. Or Yes, this is the one I want to marry. Or maybe I don't want to marry this person, but I just want it to be clear that we are a couple. They say this to avoid gossip - like that he or she gets in bed with one person and then another, and so on.
Interviewers: That involves culture and tradition as well.
Marcos: Yes, we are talking about indigenous people that come from the villages. . .
Interviewers: Who hold different concepts than we who come from the cities.
Marcos: But it is a rule is that you have to let the commanders know.
Interviewers: Now, when you were explaining this to us, something else came to mind, another question. You spoke of the possibility. . . well, of pregnant companeras who risk abortion while engaging in maneuvers. In the Revolutionary Womens Law [One of the revolutionary laws promulgated by the EZLN in the liberated territories - translators] it is stated explicitly that a woman has full rights over her body and her life. Radical feminists have been fighting throughout the world to truly have control over their lives and bodies. However, the issue becomes very confused when an article appears in the media, in a paper like La Jornada, saying that the EZLN has presented a law proposal to the governor of Chiapas in which abortion is addressed, but at no time does it make clear in the media the position of the EZLN concerning the issue. I don't know if it was intentional or if there really was no in-depth knowledge about your position, but the media assumed that the EZLN is opposed to abortion. Thus, I would like to divide the question in several parts. The first question would be: What is the proposal of the Zapatistas in relation to the legalization of abortion? And the second question is: At this time, if a compan~era becomes pregnant because her contraceptive method fails and she does not wish to carry the pregnancy to term, if she wants to interrupt it, does she have authority over her body in order to decide if she aborts or not? And the third question...
Marcos: Wait, wait, let's start with the first question.
Interviewers: Well, yes, let's go question by question. The first one is: What does this law proposal consist of?
Marcos: The EZLN demands that the state's penal code be modified because there is no political freedom. The government, taking advantage of the fact that we are tied up in talks and that we are surrounded, is taking the opportunity to reverse the decriminalization of abortion that existed in the Penal Code. They say that this is at the EZLN's request, but the EZLN did not request the modification of the Code in that respect. The stupidity of this article is based on the argument that this is a position of Samuel Ruiz Garcia, that it evidences the influence of the church on the EZLN, and since the church is against abortion they want it to be penalized. Then, according to the argument, the church directed us to present this law proposal. We have not presented any law proposal or anything of the kind - nor a electoral reform proposal or anything like that either. The proposal says contextually: We demand that the Penal Code of the state be eliminated. We don't say that it should be reformed or replaced by a more just one. We demand that it be removed because it leaves us no other form of political participation other than taking up arms. That's what it says. I sent a letter to La Jornada because of that stupid article that was published.
Interviewers: Very insidious!
Marcos: Yes. That answers the first question. Question two: the companera not only has the right to terminate the pregnancy, but the organization also has the obligation to provide the means for her to do it with total safety.
Interviewers: Well, that was the third question, you already answered it.
Marcos: If she says, I have become pregnant - it could even be that she became pregnant on purpose, not just that the birth-control method failed - but I don't want it anymore, this is fine, as long as her life is not in danger; I mean, if a certain number of months have gone by it can't be done. Then she can demand by the right of Zapatista law that the EZLN give her the means to terminate the pregnancy under the best health conditions that the EZLN can ensure. It is the obligation of the commanders that she is given these means. If the pregnancy can't be stopped, aborted, then the commanders have to find the way to resolve the problem.
Interviewers: In this case, for free.
Marcos: It is not in the strictest sense control over their bodies and the companeras demonstrate this very clearly, We are not free in this sense because, for example, I can't become pregnant and continue to serve in the army. In this sense I am not free. I am free in that if I am pregnant I can stop the pregnancy, but if I am not pregnant I can't decide to become pregnant, because if I become pregnant I have to leave the army. And yes, we do tell them they have to leave the army, because of the conditions we face. That's why the compan~eras say, There is no freedom over my own body. In the case of the female combatants it is only half-freedom, the other freedom is lacking. Right now they can't decide to carry a pregnany to term and remain in the army. It is only fair to point this out, and the compan~eras continue to fight for their right to become pregnant. The other side of the issue has already been resolved for many years and we deal with abortions with the means we have at our disposal. Until now no one has died during an abortion. In the communities abortion is practiced to the extent that our resources allow.
Interviewers: Then it exists also for the civilian population, for the women in the civilian community. There is that possibility in case she needs it, if she so wishes.
Marcos: Yes. In general, they don't seek it because of their beliefs; also for health reasons, since in their nutritional conditions an abortion can be deadly. Sometimes it is best to let the pregnancy be carried through, even if there is still time for an abortion. But we do facilitate the use of contraceptives and all that, for example.
Interviewers: The companeras we met also had access to contraceptives. The question has been raised of whether there is the possibility for the organization of women's groups within the army where women could organize as women of the army but also autonomously as women. By this we mean self- help collectives where they could gain and acquire more knowledge about their bodies, and could even get to the point. . . for example, in the case of abortions in the first weeks, there are methods that have been proposed by radical women's groups, like abortion by menstrual extraction, one of the first methods for aborting early in the pregnancy. Is autonomy given in this sense or not?
Marcos: No, I didn't know about this method. The situation here is not so advanced. The most we managed to achieve some time ago - when I was captain - many years ago, was to have sex-education classes, explaining the man's body, the woman's body, what was the mechanism of pregnancy, what things were going on in their bodies. This was received with much enthusiasm from the men, and much embarrassment from the women. The men came to see how a woman's body was. For example - look, this town has a power plant project that breaks down all the time, but when it works... some months ago it worked for few days. One of the companeros told us, very enthusiastically, that at last he had seen his wife. He said, I finally saw all of her. And they have ten kids. He had ten kids and he didn't know his wife's body. He didn't know his wife's body! Until there was electric light and they thought of making love with the light on, and then yes, he could see everything that was going on. And he talked about it as if it had been his first time. He already had ten children, one of them fully grown, already an insurgent [combatant in the EZLN - translators], an 18 year-old, a member of a combat unit.
We organized these classes in order to combat the diseases that afflict the women, so that they understand the necessity of hygiene. It is a problem for them; the men don't take it into account. They think that when a companera has a urinary-tract infection, from lack of cleanliness for example - or if she has her period - that she is just lazy, that she doesn't want to work. We need to sensitize the men to this so that they understand that a woman's body is not like a man's, in many senses. And that's why we organized these classes. We try in the talks and lectures to address these issues.
Interviewers: Is there an education as far as the use of the condom- not only as a contraceptive but also to avoid diseases, to avoid contracting and spreading them?
Marcos: No, in reality no. In reality, we teach about the condom as a contraceptive when the compan~eras can't use the pill, when they get sick from the pill. There are many who get ill from the pill, they are very young; when they use pills with high estrogen content they get sick. With all the heavy work they do already they get nauseous, get headaches and all that - it's very hard on them. They can't always get IUDs, the rhythm method is really prehistoric, so then there is the use of condoms. But we should say that the Zapatistas' sexual horizons are very limited. I mean by this that gonorrhea, and things of this sort. . . well, we didn't get a chance to catch them in the cities since we fled before attacking the whorehouses. We are in the mountain, we are at war - within the regular troops, I'm saying, it is very, very difficult to spread diseases. In fact, we have not seen one case. And we can instill fear, in fact we did it, and they tell you, Not me, I have never been with a woman, where am I going to become infected, or in what whorehouse am I going to catch this? It's more pragmatic in that sense. I am not saying it is good, because I do think that it would be good to promote their use. . . but no, we haven't done it, I would lie to you if I said that we were doing it. It is recommended when. . . as a contraceptive, not for sexual hygiene.
Interviewers: Well, in case that this kind of sexual education could be resumed. . . do you believe that it would be acceptable that the problem of disease, in the case of AIDS, etcetera, be included in the instruction?
Marcos: I believe so. Let's say that we understand, for example, about AIDS. Well, according to the information that we were getting when we were in the mountains AIDS is a homosexuals' disease, and therefore, if you weren't a homosexual, nothing would happen to you. In fact, we just found that you can get AIDS in other ways, it can be transmitted even in heterosexual relationships. I am talking about the basic sexual culture here, because in this case all references to AIDS are in the context of homosexuality: If I'm not homosexual I have nothing to worry about. The main worry here is different: What I have to worry about is to not get anyone pregnant, or that no one gets me pregnant. No, we don't have a sexual culture based on fear of disease due to our isolation, but yes, we do need educate about it.
Interviewers: Well, let's relate this to another question. . . We want to ask another question relating to immediate solidarity. Have you received or do you have access to condoms? Would it be feasible to bring them?
Marcos: Yes, but unfortunately they would be very hard to eat [Laughs]. But yes, we do get contraceptives, condoms and all that.
Interviewers: So, as I was saying. . .
Marcos: These things are allowed through by the Mexican army so that the Zapatistas don't reproduce [Laughs]. They have enough problems with the ones that already exist for us to make even more.
Interviewers: Now, relating the answers with other questions. . . One of the questions that we were asked to ask by companeros Mateo and Robin is what is the EZLN's policy, in the army and in the liberated communities, toward sexual preference, in this specific case, homosexuality and lesbianism. Is the EZLN given to the satanization of homosexuality that has sometimes been found in other leftist groups? Or is it simply unknown what you are talking about when you attempt to address these issues?
Marcos: No, let's say that at a level of, well, of basic culture, it is not punished. I mean, they don't say, He's a homosexual, put him in jail, kill him. On one hand, they laugh, make jokes, but homosexuals have a normal life in the community. Our position as an army is that - let me put it to you in a general way - there are many minorities that will have to say, Enough is enough! Just as the indigenous people said, Enough is enough!, other minorities not tolerated by the powerful will have to say it also. In that sense, then, there is no sexual policy in the Zapatista Army.
Interviewers: That is, there is no law - in the communities either - that forbids lesbianism or homosexuality.
Marcos: No
Interviewers: Not even in the army?
Marcos: No, not even in the army.
Interviewers: There is no policy in the army that says, We found two girls fucking or two guys fucking and well. . . they are jailed, suspended, expelled - I don't know. . .
Marcos: No, there is nothing like that. They go ask the commanders, the same as when it is a male-female couple. That means, they let us know they are not going to be at their posts, because that is what the commanders are concerned about, that their position is covered.
source: http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/mexico/ezln/anmarin.html
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