Supporter of the DPRK [Archive]

oblisk

7th November 2008, 09:24

Welcome to the forum, comrade!

I have a high respect for the DPRK spirit of independence against colonialism and imperialism. While I'm sure some members will give you a tough time for your ideological views, don't let it bug you. This is a great place to learn and debate if that's what you're looking for.

BTW, 한국어 할 줄 아세요? 친구환영합니다! 나중에 봬요! :)
Juche greetings to you.

And yes, I can speak Korean.

Welcome.

Are there a lot of Korean socialists who support the DPRK?
There are many, but the National Security Act in the South makes it extremely difficult to show any pro-left beliefs.

In fact, there are no socialists who support the DPRK.
Evidence?

and ever since Kim Jong-il it's a fucking wasteland and a fucking joke.
Evidence?

There is nothing socialist about living in poverty while your glorious leader makes a religion around himself gets fresh lobsters flown in everyday and wastes every penny he gets on champagne, movies, slave labor camps and a wholly unnecessary military while his people starve to death. You seem to have very little understanding on the DPRK, its history, culture, and system. I suggest you stop believing the KCIA and the Western Media.

This isn't capitalist propaganda, these are the facts.
Evidence?

While you show high levels of ignorance towards the DPRK, I will assume that you have not studied the country at all. Tell me, what do you know of the country besides watching a special on CNN or reading South Korean newspapers? Even American historians agree that the media's portrayal of the country is far fetched, and unrealistic. I have thoroughly studied the works of Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il, Korea's history, culture, and the bio-political spectrum of Hanbando. I have of course, studied materials from both sides (Not sensationalistic media articles) and many items from the "other" side reaffirms my support for the DPRK.

Since your "argument" contains many useless ad homs and sensationalist "facts" I am guessing you are not up for a serious debate.

Cumings believes that North Korea is a misunderstood land. Its leaders are not dangerous megalomaniacs. Rather, DPRK leaders have always been pragmatic and nationalistic. During the Cold War, they avoided dependence on the Soviet Union, created a productive economy, and improved living standards. The society they created is impressive. North Korea's streets are clean, its people humble, and crime is almost non-existent. Kim Il Sung, the father of North Korean communism, was a "a classic Robin Hood figure" who cared deeply for his people. North Korea's current leader, Kim Jong Il, is "not the playboy, womanizer, drunk, and mentally deranged fanatic ‘Dr. Evil' of our press." Instead he is a "homebody who doesn't socialize much, doesn't drink much, and works at home in his pajamas."

Abluegreen7

7th November 2008, 11:38

Are you Oblisk from Youtube?

If so Welcome!

oblisk

8th November 2008, 08:26

Are you Oblisk from Youtube?

If so Welcome!

Yes I am. How do you know of my Youtube account?

Ã‘Ã³ẊÃ®Ã¶ŉ

8th November 2008, 10:56

There aren't any Korean socialists who support the DPRK.

That's a rather sweeping statement, especially in light of the fact of South Korea's hostile stance towards the DPRK.

In fact, there are no socialists who support the DPRK.I'm sure if you look hard enough you'll find some.

The DPRK hasn't been the crown jewel of socialism, and ever since Kim Jong-il it's a fucking wasteland and a fucking joke.I don't believe anyone here is claiming that the DPRK is the "Crown Jewel" of anything.

There is nothing socialist about living in poverty while your glorious leader makes a religion around himself gets fresh lobsters flown in everyday and wastes every penny he gets on champagne, movies, slave labor camps and a wholly unnecessary military while his people starve to death.

This isn't capitalist propaganda, these are the facts. I've yet to hear from someone who's visited or fled the DPRK who has said otherwise. Because as we all know, every person fleeing North Korea takes a guided tour of Kim Jong Il's private quarters and social life.

It is a fact that KJI took a state that had a higher economic quality of life than South Korea (up until the 1980s) in spite of blockades and turned it into a land of dirt-eating zombies.*Incompetent rulership leading to starvation is one thing, but the lurid details of KJI's personal tastes just scream "sensationalism" to me.

Don't believe everything you read in the papers.

NK is as socialist as Khmer Rouge. Just because it is our enemy's (US) enemy does not make it our friend.Apart from comrade oblisk here, I doubt anyone regards the DPRK as a "friend".

But even so, I oppose imperialist interference all the same.

No one in the South supports KJI. You're quite fond of making sweeping statements, aren't you?

Oh, and may I extend a hearty welcome to you, oblisk!

Abluegreen7

8th November 2008, 12:21

Yes I am. How do you know of my Youtube account?

I have seen some of your videos.

They are very good.

Sasha

8th November 2008, 15:04

Alvar

8th November 2008, 17:00

welcome but be prepared to be fiercly attacked by the anti-authoritarians here.

Poor us.

Ã‘Ã³ẊÃ®Ã¶ŉ

8th November 2008, 17:13

don't think everything you read in the papers is imperialistic false CIA fabricated lies.

I don't. That's a strawman on your part. I was specifically referring to the "lurid, sensationalist" descriptions of KJI's lifestyle that we have no way of independantly confirming.

8th November 2008, 17:35

North Korea is one of those "intellectual minefields" where you really have to watch your step when researching and discussing it. So much as been published and claimed on both sides that it really is a dangerous topic to discuss.

What we do know, though, is not promising at all. The DPRK become isolated due to Juche and its trading policies, as well as western pressure on an informal embargo (or is there a formal one? I'm not sure about that). Their economy has essentially ground to halt, and because of it they experienced a massive famine. Whether or not people are actually eating dirt, cooking treebark or resorting to cannibalism really is irrelevant to the fact that the famine did happen and many died.

We also know that during this time the government of the DPRK was spending a lot of money on building infrastructure in the cities (when the majority of the population lives in the countryside) and on its military. We know now that DPRK even has an incredibly expensive nuclear weapons program, that was probably an offshoot of Kim Il-Sung's nuclear power program. If that is true then that means that this program existed throughout the famine, and that is another means of expenditure while people died.

We also know for a fact that both Kim Il-Sung and Kim Jung-Il have had extensive personality cults built around them (if not the most extensive). This, coupled with confucianism, puts these two figureheads in pseudo autocratic roles. We also know that massive ceremonies are performed to commemorate important dates, whereby thousands of people perform for Kim Jung-Il.

All of this, coupled with the fact that North Korea was essentially a satellite state of the USSR when it was "formed," (among other things I don't feel like writing about because I'm too lazy) really shows that there wasn't anything socialist about it ever.

Sankofa

8th November 2008, 18:11

What we do know, though, is not promising at all. The DPRK become isolated due to Juche and its trading policies, as well as western pressure on an informal embargo (or is there a formal one? I'm not sure about that). Their economy has essentially ground to halt, and because of it they experienced a massive famine.

North Korea's economy plummeted with the fall of the USSR right? Many socialist states were hurt by it. Cuba's own economy also took a severe blow (although, not as serious as the DPRK) which launched them into the "special period" of economic crisis there.

Also, at this time there was also a series of natural disasters in the form of several instances of severe flooding (this type of flooding continues to this day, for reference), which wasn't helpful to the situation. So while the famine was completely terrible, it's not something that can be blamed on the incompetence of the DPRK government alone.

We also know that during this time the government of the DPRK was spending a lot of money on building infrastructure in the cities (when the majority of the population lives in the countryside) and on its military. We know now that DPRK even has an incredibly expensive nuclear weapons program, that was probably an offshoot of Kim Il-Sung's nuclear power program. If that is true then that means that this program existed throughout the famine, and that is another means of expenditure while people died

A result of Juche Idea, I believe. I may be wrong, but I believe Juche has a strong "military first" policy which has influenced a lot of the economic and social policies...for better or worse it seems.

Actually, a famous quote by Kim Jong-Il is "One can live with out candy, but not with out bullets."

All of this, coupled with the fact that North Korea was essentially a satellite state of the USSR when it was "formed," (among other things I don't feel like writing about because I'm too lazy) really shows that there wasn't anything socialist about it ever.

I wouldn't go so far to make a sweeping statement that North Korea's "never been socialist", simply because there are so few of us that actually have a firm working knowledge about North Korean history, culture and Juche Thought, all together.

Perhaps Comrade Oblisk would be so kind as to give us a lecture?

For anyone who's interested in learning more about Juche, there's a huge online database, Juche Theory Index (http://www.korea-dpr.com/library/entrance.htm), that has dozens of works by both Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il available for study.

AAFCE

8th November 2008, 20:10

Welcome to Revleft.

Only thing I know about the DPRK is they have a BIG ASS statue in Pyongyang (sp?)

Thankyou CNN.

JimmyJazz

8th November 2008, 20:53

my (socialist) friend went to north-korea recently, its clear the situation is horrible

The situation usually is, in third world countries.

I'm not defending the DPRK even remotely, but comparing third world socialist countries to first world capitalist countries is, to paraphrase Noam Chomsky, "so stupid an 8-year-old could see through it." I'm assuming your friend is from a first world country (Netherlands?), in which case his personal impressions--which amount to a mental comparison between NK and his experience of his home country--are useless in analyzing the DPRK. Systematic comparison of comparable countries is required to draw useful conclusions.

This is nothing like Vietnam. No one in the South supports KJI. It's not that they love the RoK. They want the two halves reunited, but they don't support KJI just because. Most Koreans would like to see a less hostile RoK government for starters, but that has nothing to do with liking the Kim dynasty.

OK, thanks.

Sasha

8th November 2008, 21:23

The situation usually is, in third world countries.

I'm not defending the DPRK even remotely, but comparing third world socialist countries to first world capitalist countries is, to paraphrase Noam Chomsky, "so stupid an 8-year-old could see through it." I'm assuming your friend is from a first world country (Netherlands?), in which case his personal impressions--which amount to a mental comparison between NK and his experience of his home country--are useless in analyzing the DPRK. Systematic comparison of comparable countries is required to draw useful conclusions.

my firend is dutch but she didn't compare it to the netherlands. she traveled the world extensefly for decades, espacely the "socialist" & fascist country's (she got an obsession with isolated society's)
she says the situation in North-korea is far worse than places like cuba during the missile crises, the sovjet union, DDR or china in the 60's and that the terror she felt holding the country and it people in its grip was most comparable with the worst of the fascist country's like spain under franco, greece under the Junta, portugal under salazar and despotic 3th world dictatorships like that of Idi Amin, Mugabe and papa doc but than even worse.
She said Burma (sic!) was an breath of fresh air when she came there after her visit of north-korea.

Sankofa

8th November 2008, 21:31

Welcome to Revleft.

Only thing I know about the DPRK is they have a BIG ASS statue in Pyongyang (sp?)

Thankyou CNN.

I think the statue you refer to is the Kim Il-Sung grand monument, and yeah, it's very impressive.

Say what you will about the politics, but from a purely artistic perspective, North Korea has extremely great taste in socialist architecture.

Sasha

8th November 2008, 21:48

Say what you will about the politics, but from a purely artistic perspective, North Korea has extremely great taste in socialist architecture.

nah not even that is nice, to soft around the edges.
my apriciation for "socialist"art is linear to that of "socialist"politics. from the moment that stalin surpessed the awsome constructivism and other avantgarde in favor of social realism is also the same moment i think that the other few good things in authoritarian communism got lost for ever.

oblisk

9th November 2008, 06:31

my (socialist) friend went to north-korea recently, its clear the situation is horrible even if you are given the shielded and faked this is worker wahlhala tourist tour.
The hotelstaf would speak to her secretly in the nights and she came back with the most horrible stories.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. So far, I have seen zero evidence that Pyongyang is a Potemkin Village.

And why shouldn't Pyongyang have the largest and biggest buildings? It is the capital of the DPRK.

What we do know, though, is not promising at all. The DPRK become isolated due to Juche and its trading policies,
The DPRK is not as isolated as you'd think. Kim Il Sung met with thousands of foreign delegates throughout his career, and established many diplomatic ties;

Not a complete list:
Table : Alphabetical order
Country Date
Afghanistan 26-Dec-73
Albania 17-May-49
Algeria 25-Sep-58
Angola 16-Nov-75
Antigua and Barbuda 27-Nov-90
Armenia 13-Feb-92
Australia 8-May-00
Austria 17-Dec-74
Azerbaijan 30-Jan-92
Bahamas 16-May-91
Bangladesh 9-Dec-73
Barbados 5-Dec-77
Belarus 3-Feb-92
Belgium 23-Jan-01
Belize 20-Jun-91
Benin 5-Feb-73
Botswana 27-Nov-74
Britain 12-Dec-00
Brunei 7-Jan-99
Bulgaria 29-Nov-48
Burkina Faso 11-Oct-72
Burundi 11-Mar-67
Cambodia 20-Dec-64
Cameroon 3-Mar-72
Canada 6-Feb-01
Cape Verde 18-Aug-75
Central African Republic 5-Sep-69
Chad 8-May-69
Chile 1-Jun-72
China 6-Oct-49
Colombia 24-Oct-88
Comoros 13-Nov-75
Congo 24-Dec-64
Cote d’Ivoire 9-Oct-84
Croatia 30-Nov-92
Cuba 29-Aug-60
Cyprus 23-Dec-91
Czech Republic 1-Jan-93
Denmark 17-Jul-73
Djibouti 13-Jun-93
Dominica 18-Sep-79
Egypt 24-Aug-63
Equatorial Guinea 30-Jan-69
Eritrea 25-May-93
Estonia 7-May-94
Ethiopia 5-Jun-75
Finland 1-Jun-73
France 11-Dec-84
Gabon 29-Jan-74
Gambia 2-Mar-73
Georgia 3-Nov-94
Germany 1-Mar-01
Ghana 28-Dec-64
Greece 8-Mar-01
Grenada 9-May-79
Guinea 8-Oct-58
Guinea-Bissau 16-Mar-74
Guyana 18-May-74
Hungary 11-Nov-48
Iceland 27-Jul-73
India 10-Dec-73
Indonesia 16-Apr-64
Iran 15-Apr-73
Iraq
Italy 4-Jan-00
Jamaica 9-Oct-74
Jordan 5-Jul-74
Kazakhstan 28-Jan-92
Kenya 12-May-75
Kuwait Sep-67
Kyrgyzstan 21-Jan-92
Laos 24-Jun-74
Latvia 26-Sep-91
Lebanon 12-Feb-81
Lesotho 19-Apr-80
Liberia 3-Jul-75
Libya 16-Jul-75
Liechtenstein 20-Dec-74
Lithuania 15-Sep-91
Luxembourg 6-Mar-01
Macedonia 2-Nov-93
Madagascar 16-Nov-72
Malawi 25-Jun-82
Malaysia 30-Jun-73
Maldives 14-Jun-70
Mali 31-Oct-60
Malta 20-Dec-71
Mauritania 12-Nov-64
Mauritius 16-Mar-73
Mexico 4-Sep-80
Mongol 15-Oct-48
Morocco 13-Feb-89
Mozambique 25-Jun-75
Namibia 22-Mar-90
Nauru 25-Feb-82
Nepal 15-May-74
Netherlands 15-Jan-01
Nicaragua 21-Aug-79
Niger 6-Sep-74
Nigeria 25-May-76
Norway 22-Jun-73
Oman 25-May-92
Pakistan 9-Nov-72
Palestine Apr-66
Papua New Guinea 1-Jun-76
Peru 15-Dec-88
Philippines 12-Jul-00
Poland 16-Oct-48
Portugal 15-Apr-75
Qatar 11-Jan-93
Republic of Moldova 30-Jan-92
Romania 26-Oct-48
Russia 12-Oct-48
Rwanda 22-Apr-72
Saint Lucia 13-Sep-79
Saint Vincent and the Gre 3-Apr-81
Sao Tome and Principe 9-Aug-75
Senegal 8-Sep-72
Seychelles 24-Aug-76
Sierra Leone 14-Oct-71
Singapore 8-Nov-75
Slovakia 1-Jan-93
Slovenia 18-Sep-92
Somalia 12-Apr-67
South Africa 10-Aug-98
Spain 7-Feb-01
Sri Lanka 15-Jul-70
Sudan 21-Jun-69
Suriname 11-Oct-82
Sweden 7-Apr-73
Switzerland 20-Dec-74
Syria 25-Jul-66
Tajikistan 5-Feb-92
Tanzania 13-Jan-65
Thailand 8-May-75
Togo 31-Jan-73
Trinidad and Tobago 22-Jan-86
Tunisia 16-Jul-75
Turkmenistan 10-Jan-92
Uganda 2-Aug-72
Ukraine 9-Jan-92
Uzbekistan 7-Feb-92
Venezuela 28-Oct-74
Vietnam 31-Jan-50
Yemen 9-Mar-63
Yugoslavia 30-Oct-48
Zaire 15-Dec-72
Zambia 12-Apr-69
Zimbabwe 18-Apr-80

as well as western pressure on an informal embargo (or is there a formal one? I'm not sure about that). Their economy has essentially ground to halt, and because of it they experienced a massive famine. Whether or not people are actually eating dirt, cooking treebark or resorting to cannibalism really is irrelevant to the fact that the famine did happen and many died.
Yes, the Arduous March did in fact, happen. But the severity was a far cry from what the media was stating. "Millions" did not die, as there is no evidence for this.

Causes of the March;

(1) natural disasters in the mid 1990s;
(2) droughts in 2000-2001;
(3) economic blockades (=difficulty importing fertilisers, &c; difficulty importing food on commercial terms; difficulty importing fuel for energy production);
(4) a natural dearth of arable land;
(5) the international fall of communism and the loss of trading partners as a result (its market relations largely being with China); and
(6) the diverting of resources to maintain the standing army to off-set or deter a terrorist attack and invasion of the country by the US.

None of these points are in any way a direct fault of the DPRK regime, nor are they controversial.

We also know that during this time the government of the DPRK was spending a lot of money on building infrastructure in the cities (when the majority of the population lives in the countryside) and on its military.

Wrong again. The bulk of the urbanization and the building up happened during the Chollima period, where the DPRK grew very prosperous, even more than the South. Economists often described the DPRK as the most industrialized country in Eastern Asia. Sadly, the Chollima period was put to a halt during the recent natural disasters.

We know now that DPRK even has an incredibly expensive nuclear weapons program, that was probably an offshoot of Kim Il-Sung's nuclear power program. If that is true then that means that this program existed throughout the famine, and that is another means of expenditure while people died.
Actually, nuclear weapons are cheap to produce. The DPRK first "started" its nuclear program in the 50's, when it was interested in gathering knowledge.

We also know for a fact that both Kim Il-Sung and Kim Jung-Il have had extensive personality cults built around them (if not the most extensive). This, coupled with Confucianism, puts these two figureheads in pseudo autocratic roles. We also know that massive ceremonies are performed to commemorate important dates, whereby thousands of people perform for Kim Jung-Il.
I disagree that a personality of cult is the correct definition.

There is no cult of personality in the DPRK. I take the view that, of all the people in any country who participate in political activities on any scale of importance, the son of a leader and revolutionary as esteemed and as pivotal to the liberation of the country as President Kim Il Sung is likely to receive some collateral esteem himself due to the cultural mores prevailing in such country - but especially in a country such as Korea where ancestor-worship has been prevalent for thousands of years. The true basis of Kim Jong-il's esteem and admiration, however, lies in his political, ideological and theoretical activities in the 1970s and 1980s which have left their indelible marks on Korean society to this day and the effects will continue to be felt in every area of social life.
Also, having a leadership figure to look up to may not be something other socialists can understand. There is no "cult" in the DPRK. I would say that it is more correct to say that the people have deep respect for the both leaders, but not worship them. Western people do not have a grasp of understanding of this. A "cult" is a secretive sect where the reverence for Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il is a representation of the Korean single-hearted unity and determination for national independence, freedom from occupation and exploitation, and the building of a powerful and independent nation. I fail to see how the deep love and respect of the Korean people, as well as many people around the world have for Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il is a personality cult.

All of this, coupled with the fact that North Korea was essentially a satellite state of the USSR when it was "formed," (among other things I don't feel like writing about because I'm too lazy) really shows that there wasn't anything socialist about it ever.
Wrong. Many Western historians will say that the DPRK was not just a satellite country of the USSR. This is a common misconception. Neither the Soviet or the Chinese introduced communism to Korea, they began discovering it themselves in the 1920's, during the height of the revolution spirit during the Japanese occupation. Of course, many Korean communists were influenced by the USSR and Chinese, since they fought as brothers in arms. The DPRK spouted independence and Korean-owned sovereignty, and would not like the idea of being a "satellite" colony of ANY (Communist or capitalist) country.

Nothing Human Is Alien

9th November 2008, 07:13

There aren't any Korean socialists who support the DPRK.

Actually, a section of what exists of a left* in south Korea virulently supports the government of north Korea.

* Oblisk is correct about the chilling effects of the National Security Act. Simply "promoting anti-government ideas" can land you in prison, or worse.

9th November 2008, 08:55

The DPRK is not as isolated as you'd think. Kim Il Sung met with thousands of foreign delegates throughout his career, and established many diplomatic ties;

Not a complete list:
Table : Alphabetical order
Country Date
Afghanistan 26-Dec-73
Albania 17-May-49
Algeria 25-Sep-58
Angola 16-Nov-75
Antigua and Barbuda 27-Nov-90
Armenia 13-Feb-92
Australia 8-May-00
Austria 17-Dec-74
Azerbaijan 30-Jan-92
Bahamas 16-May-91
Bangladesh 9-Dec-73
Barbados 5-Dec-77
Belarus 3-Feb-92
Belgium 23-Jan-01
Belize 20-Jun-91
Benin 5-Feb-73
Botswana 27-Nov-74
Britain 12-Dec-00
Brunei 7-Jan-99
Bulgaria 29-Nov-48
Burkina Faso 11-Oct-72
Burundi 11-Mar-67
Cambodia 20-Dec-64
Cameroon 3-Mar-72
Canada 6-Feb-01
Cape Verde 18-Aug-75
Central African Republic 5-Sep-69
Chad 8-May-69
Chile 1-Jun-72
China 6-Oct-49
Colombia 24-Oct-88
Comoros 13-Nov-75
Congo 24-Dec-64
Cote d’Ivoire 9-Oct-84
Croatia 30-Nov-92
Cuba 29-Aug-60
Cyprus 23-Dec-91
Czech Republic 1-Jan-93
Denmark 17-Jul-73
Djibouti 13-Jun-93
Dominica 18-Sep-79
Egypt 24-Aug-63
Equatorial Guinea 30-Jan-69
Eritrea 25-May-93
Estonia 7-May-94
Ethiopia 5-Jun-75
Finland 1-Jun-73
France 11-Dec-84
Gabon 29-Jan-74
Gambia 2-Mar-73
Georgia 3-Nov-94
Germany 1-Mar-01
Ghana 28-Dec-64
Greece 8-Mar-01
Grenada 9-May-79
Guinea 8-Oct-58
Guinea-Bissau 16-Mar-74
Guyana 18-May-74
Hungary 11-Nov-48
Iceland 27-Jul-73
India 10-Dec-73
Indonesia 16-Apr-64
Iran 15-Apr-73
Iraq
Italy 4-Jan-00
Jamaica 9-Oct-74
Jordan 5-Jul-74
Kazakhstan 28-Jan-92
Kenya 12-May-75
Kuwait Sep-67
Kyrgyzstan 21-Jan-92
Laos 24-Jun-74
Latvia 26-Sep-91
Lebanon 12-Feb-81
Lesotho 19-Apr-80
Liberia 3-Jul-75
Libya 16-Jul-75
Liechtenstein 20-Dec-74
Lithuania 15-Sep-91
Luxembourg 6-Mar-01
Macedonia 2-Nov-93
Madagascar 16-Nov-72
Malawi 25-Jun-82
Malaysia 30-Jun-73
Maldives 14-Jun-70
Mali 31-Oct-60
Malta 20-Dec-71
Mauritania 12-Nov-64
Mauritius 16-Mar-73
Mexico 4-Sep-80
Mongol 15-Oct-48
Morocco 13-Feb-89
Mozambique 25-Jun-75
Namibia 22-Mar-90
Nauru 25-Feb-82
Nepal 15-May-74
Netherlands 15-Jan-01
Nicaragua 21-Aug-79
Niger 6-Sep-74
Nigeria 25-May-76
Norway 22-Jun-73
Oman 25-May-92
Pakistan 9-Nov-72
Palestine Apr-66
Papua New Guinea 1-Jun-76
Peru 15-Dec-88
Philippines 12-Jul-00
Poland 16-Oct-48
Portugal 15-Apr-75
Qatar 11-Jan-93
Republic of Moldova 30-Jan-92
Romania 26-Oct-48
Russia 12-Oct-48
Rwanda 22-Apr-72
Saint Lucia 13-Sep-79
Saint Vincent and the Gre 3-Apr-81
Sao Tome and Principe 9-Aug-75
Senegal 8-Sep-72
Seychelles 24-Aug-76
Sierra Leone 14-Oct-71
Singapore 8-Nov-75
Slovakia 1-Jan-93
Slovenia 18-Sep-92
Somalia 12-Apr-67
South Africa 10-Aug-98
Spain 7-Feb-01
Sri Lanka 15-Jul-70
Sudan 21-Jun-69
Suriname 11-Oct-82
Sweden 7-Apr-73
Switzerland 20-Dec-74
Syria 25-Jul-66
Tajikistan 5-Feb-92
Tanzania 13-Jan-65
Thailand 8-May-75
Togo 31-Jan-73
Trinidad and Tobago 22-Jan-86
Tunisia 16-Jul-75
Turkmenistan 10-Jan-92
Uganda 2-Aug-72
Ukraine 9-Jan-92
Uzbekistan 7-Feb-92
Venezuela 28-Oct-74
Vietnam 31-Jan-50
Yemen 9-Mar-63
Yugoslavia 30-Oct-48
Zaire 15-Dec-72
Zambia 12-Apr-69
Zimbabwe 18-Apr-80

So what? I was talking about economic isolation.

oblisk

9th November 2008, 09:05

So what? I was talking about economic isolation.

How is the DPRK economically isolated? Multiple foreign investors exist in the DPRK, many joint-ventureships have been forged between the North and the South, and it still continues to trade with its allies.

Sasha

9th November 2008, 10:28

* Oblisk is correct about the chilling effects of the National Security Act. Simply "promoting anti-government ideas" can land you in prison, or worse.

how bad that might be it wil be nothing like what happens with you if you would have ant-goverment ideas in the DPRK. Concentration camp and excecution a plenty there.

leftists supporting this kind of regimes are either completly bonkers or very misled.

SU, DPRK, DDR ect where/are not worker paradises they where/are murderous dicatatorships.

no gods, no masters & espacely no glorious leaders.

oblisk

9th November 2008, 10:46

how bad that might be it wil be nothing like what happens with you if you would have ant-goverment ideas in the DPRK. Concentration camp and excecution a plenty there.

leftists supporting this kind of regimes are either completly bonkers or very misled.

SU, DPRK, DDR ect where/are not worker paradises they where/are murderous dicatatorships.

no gods, no masters & espacely no glorious leaders.

I see you continue to totally ignore my responses. Please provide your evidence to your claims.

Sankofa

9th November 2008, 10:53

The DPRK spouted independence and Korean-owned sovereignty, and would not like the idea of being a "satellite" colony of ANY (Communist or capitalist) country.

Comrade Oblisk! This is slightly off topic but concerning this statement...

Would this be the reason that North Korea has completely eliminated the mixed-script system in favor of one that's all hangul isn't of being combined (how ever slightly) with hanja, like ROK currently has?

Sasha

9th November 2008, 11:57

The DPRK is not as isolated as you'd think. Kim Il Sung met with thousands of foreign delegates throughout his career, and established many diplomatic ties;

you seriously claim that the fact that K.I.S. met some diplomats means that north-koera is not isolated? :crying:
i'm talking basic human rights here....
you live in the neighboring country for christ sake, please answer these questions:

- how many north-koreans have you or someone you know met in your life?

- how many times have you, or someone you know visited the country? Would you be able to travel there freely or visa versa?

- how many independent free media sources excist in north korea?

- how many members do you think revleft has from this suposedly socialist country? Or how many ordanairy north koreans are capeble of comunicating with the outside world at all?

and i could go on and on but whats the point? Only an complete idiot would support the goverment of north-korea and why try to reason with an complete idiot.

oblisk

9th November 2008, 15:42

you seriously claim that the fact that K.I.S. met some diplomats means that north-koera is not isolated? :crying:
You have failed to prove how the DPRK is isolated.

- how many north-koreans have you or someone you know met in your life?

Since I am a member of the KFA, many of my comrades had met with DPRK citizens. Hundreds.

- how many times have you, or someone you know visited the country? Would you be able to travel there freely or visa versa?

Of course you would be free to travel. If you are an American/Journalist/Israeli it may be more difficult to get in. But if you join the KFA, things are much easier. If you tour with tour-catering groups such a Koryo Tours, you will miss out on a lot of things, like talking with everyday DPRK citizens, touring in special places, etc. And yes, the DPRK guarantees freedom of travel. The DPRK takes part in international film, sport, and science competitions from around the world.

- how many independent free media sources excist in north korea?

Besides the state-owned KCNA, a few foreign media exists in the DPRK, such as Xinhua, Itar-Tass, etc. I believe Al-Jazeera had recently applied for membership.

- how many members do you think revleft has from this suposedly socialist country? Or how many ordanairy north koreans are capeble of comunicating with the outside world at all?

It is very easy for America to block websites from being uploaded to the DPRK. The IETF(Internet Engineering Task Force) are probably working with them to stop the flow of information. Technically they can get online(Even with their own class A address) but they will be isolated. And I do not believe that internet is being totally restricted, as it is allowed in the internet Cafe in Pyongyang, and baudband-equipped hotel rooms. It would be foolish for the internet to be unfiltered, and degenerative materials including sexual and political should be stopped. People most often confuse unlimited, unfiltered feed of information for freedom. The DPRK greatly pushes the knowledge of modern technology, and has built modern computer facilities in the past years. Kim Jong Il even had said that one who is ignorant to the evolving computer technology is a fool. The problem is, the cost of laying a wide-scale grid, as only obsolete grid exists. South Korea had this problem, but they were able to finance the cost. Hence their equipment and existing grid is much newer and faster than that of North America's. Also, the North is slowly reaching out to get connection as soon as possible, but with their buzzing intranet and the immediate problems at hand to nurture, getting the DPRK connected is not the most highest priority. This is true for Cuba and Venezuela.

You can also view the only .kp domain website at kcckp.kp

And since there is already intranet, there is little demand for the internet. The internet cafe in Pyongyang seems sufficient enough, although more will start popping up soon, as DPRK and Germany work together for a dedicated DPRK line.

and i could go on and on but whats the point? Only an complete idiot would support the goverment of north-korea and why try to reason with an complete idiot.
What is with this forum's inability to debate and communicate in a civilized manner without resorting to ad homs and insults? Please try to debate in a civilized manner without profanity and idiotic remarks in the future.

Comrade Oblisk! This is slightly off topic but concerning this statement...

Would this be the reason that North Korea has completely eliminated the mixed-script system in favor of one that's all hangul isn't of being combined (how ever slightly) with hanja, like ROK currently has?
Kim Il Sung thought that the Korean language and writing style should be totally independent, that is why Chinese characters mixed with Korean text is no longer used.

jaffe

9th November 2008, 16:11

maybe all DPRK supporters should move and live overthere. According to their story's it's a great place for workers :).

oblisk

9th November 2008, 16:20

maybe all DPRK supporters should move and live overthere. According to their story's it's a great place for workers :).

Tell me, how often is the "If you like it so much, why don't you just move there?" colloquialism used here?

jaffe

9th November 2008, 16:31

yeah but who don't you just do it? Walhalla for workers :D I heard it's great but my train unfortunatly doesn't stop in DPRK central:(

Sendo

10th November 2008, 01:27

That's a rather sweeping statement, especially in light of the fact of South Korea's hostile stance towards the DPRK.

I'm sure if you look hard enough you'll find some.

I don't believe anyone here is claiming that the DPRK is the "Crown Jewel" of anything.

Because as we all know, every person fleeing North Korea takes a guided tour of Kim Jong Il's private quarters and social life.

Incompetent rulership leading to starvation is one thing, but the lurid details of KJI's personal tastes just scream "sensationalism" to me.

Don't believe everything you read in the papers.

Apart from comrade oblisk here, I doubt anyone regards the DPRK as a "friend".

But even so, I oppose imperialist interference all the same.

You're quite fond of making sweeping statements, aren't you?

Oh, and may I extend a hearty welcome to you, oblisk!

KJI does leave the country from time to time, so he can be observed.

And when I said there are no socialist who support the DPRK I was saying that you can't by definition be a socialist and support the DPRK, at least no the current one.

The north is not in danger of an invasion or anything like that. The south Koreans would refuse another Korean war. No way in hell you could get them to fight through that again.

KJI puts all of his country's reources into stuff like the military.

I realize that there is a lot of anti-DPRK propaganda. I am aware that they don't live like cavemen, they do have some computers and even a subway in Pyongyang.

BUT there is no electricity for the vast majority of the population. Meanwhile KJI is making nukes to use as blackmail.

KJI wants to control his country. If he lets too many people starve then his regime will collapse. What better way than to build up a military and nukes and get a nice big bailout of rice.

Every dollar spent on monuments and shrines is one less dollar spent on food.

Not every asshole who wraps himself in a red flag is a socialist.

Sendo

10th November 2008, 01:41

Kim Il Sung thought that the Korean language and writing style should be totally independent, that is why Chinese characters mixed with Korean text is no longer used.

Wow, that'll really show those damn Chinese for all those years they were imperialistic toward Korea.

Stupid, racist garbage. You can find parallels with Irish nationalists. Irish nationalists aren't sellouts and dont advocate destroying their own culture, but they don't seriously advocate banning English or the like. Sure they have the official name Eire, but they know as a matter of practicality for then and now you have to know English. Trying to "purify" one's language is absolutely ridiculous.

And how many DPRK supporters have ever or plan to set foot in that paradise? I myself would love to see Cuba (especially Havana) but I don't got the moneys right now, and I wouldn't move there because I want to see that system implemented in the USA. But even if I had to trade everything modern we had, I'd rather have a life like that of Cuban workers than the one we got. Sure we got fancy nightclubs, but we have no job security, we have little fresh food, etc.

North Korea hasn't got shit. Only a Korean supremacist and revisionist would glorify it. (find/replace "Marx" with "dear glorious eternal leader KJI to whom you must bow and revere on guided tours or your guide will go to jail") It was promising thirty years ago, not anymore. From a strategic point, start from square one. It'd be best if the regime collapsed and just assimilated with the South so that issue could be dead and forgotten, then focus on more organizing.

Korean populism is too easily distracted by what's going on outside its borders and foreign policy bullshit and racial pride (dokdo/독도 anyone? acouple of fricking rocks in the ocean between Korea and Japan. Both govts want it b/c they found gas there. But the IMB administration got everyone distracted with this issue with no more than saying those damn Japs are trying to lay claim to uninhabited islands that we own!!111 Korean media mentions nothing about the political rivalries at the very top or the resource issue or the question whether or not anyone should militarize and colonize that land in the first place. Most Koreans, it's the same deal. Do you DOKDO? It is KOREAN land. Yet at the same time the same people don't seem to care about the plight of American Indians losing their land when I bring that up.)

And that KJI personality cult is ridiculous. Reading blogs from people who have visited NK I hear the same thing. there is a personality cult that definitely exceeds that of Mao or Stalin. Absolutely dwarfs them.

Nothing Human Is Alien

10th November 2008, 02:01

Don't expect any more responses from oblisk, he's been restricted.

how bad that might be it wil be nothing like what happens with you if you would have ant-goverment ideas in the DPRK. Concentration camp and excecution a plenty there.So... getting executed (like these people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Revolutionary_Party_Incident)) or imprisoned (like these ones (http://www.anonym.to/?http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:EmRXO-DucKMJ:ara.controlarms.org/library/Index/ENGASA250221998%3Fopen%26of%3DENG-2AS+%22Ha+Young-Joon%22+national+security+act&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us)) by a "democratic" country like south Korea is "nothing like" getting executed or imprisoned in north Korea?

Could you explain how that works?

Basically, you're taking up the Shachtmanite position that "democratic" capitalism and imperialism are "better" than "Communism." One can look over the history of the various Shachtmanite sects (e.g. supporting the U.S. in its war against Viet Nam) to see where this sort of thing leads.

* * *

A few things about DPRK:

Capitalist rule and property relations were overturned in the northern part of Korea as a result of the revolutionary struggle that occurred there. If it weren't for the interference of U.S. imperialism, that would have extended to the southern half of the country as well.

The leaders of the revolutionary movement in the northern part of Korea looked to the "already existing socialist countries" (i.e. USSR and China, in which bureaucratic castes ruled over collectivized property relations), as models and bases of support.

As a result of the conditions it faced (e.g. U.S./UN invasion, encirclement, the aid of Chinese soldiers to preserve its very existence, thousands of soldiers and weapons from the world's most powerful military stationed on its borders, etc.), the revolutionary process has degenerated greatly, leading to all sorts of frankly bizarre distortions.

Still, in spite of the bureaucracy at the helm in the DPRK, communists still defend the country against imperialism and support the gains there (e.g. collectivized property, monopoly on foreign trade, universal healthcare and education, etc.).

We don't "throw the baby out with the bathwater." Refusing to defend the gains in the DPRK is the equivelant of refusing to defend a union from attack by the bosses on the grounds that its leaders are bureaucrats with ties to the Democratic Party.

We fight for socialist revolution in the south to kick the U.S. out of the penninsula and break the north out of isolation, thus eliminating the basis for the bureaucracy's "military first" policy and rationale for proping itself up. Such a revolution could pave the way for the removal of the bureaucracy in the north and the reunification of Korea as a proletarian state on the socialist road.

In the meantime, communists support the right of the DPRK to construct nuclear weapons as long as the imperialist powers continue to wield them.

Nothing Human Is Alien

10th November 2008, 02:07

The 독도 islands are a different story. Japan is again laying claims to to the islands as a part of its preparations to build up its imperialist capabilities. It's no coincidence that this comes as the Japanese military is being rehabilitated and built up. At the same time, the south Korean government is using the incident to promote nationalism and distract Koreans from the increasing class struggle "at home."

Nothing Human Is Alien

10th November 2008, 02:23

Something I forgot to mention:

Demonstrating the superiority of the planned economy, the DPRK surpassed south Korea economically (even though that country's economy was greatly growing) throughout the 1950's, 60's and most of the 70's, until it began to slowdown as a result of bureaucratic mismanagement and its own contradictions. Things got much worse in the north with the restoration of capitalism in the USSR and bureaucratic proletarian states in Eastern Europe and record flooding and famines in the early 1990s, while they generally continued to improve in the south as the imperialists continued pumping in investments and aid.

JimmyJazz

10th November 2008, 02:41

or imprisoned (like these ones (http://ara.controlarms.org/library/Index/ENGASA250221998?open&of=ENG-2AS))

This link is dead.

The other one about the executions, though, was pretty shocking. I am still learning not to be shocked by episodes in the history of Western imperialism and Western domestic anti-communism.

We don't "throw the baby out with the bathwater." Refusing to defend the gains in the DPRK is the equivelant of refusing to defend a union from attack by the bosses on the grounds that its leaders are bureaucrats with ties to the Democratic Party.

I dunno...is there really any reason to believe that it is easier to carry out a political revolution in a place like North Korea than it would be to carry out a social revolution in a place like the United States? They seem like equally gargantuan tasks to me.

Nothing Human Is Alien

10th November 2008, 04:05

Who said anything about it being "easier?" There's nothing simple about revolution or ousting bureaucrats.

Anyway, I didn't call for "political revolution." That's something Trotsky said was needed in the USSR, which had degenerated. I think it's a flawed idea, especially in cases of place like the DPRK which were "born" bureaucratic.

We say:

"While bureaucratized proletarian states are a far cry from the proletarian states we fight for, they still represent a gain for the working class. Despite their distortions, the bureaucratic proletarian states exist over top of collectivized property form born out of the overthrow of capitalism, thus allowing working people much better living conditions than they had prior to (or in the cases of those which no longer exist) after the states’ existence. More importantly on a historic scale, the very existence of these states contributes to the defeat of world imperialism, thus removing all barriers for the construction of genuine socialism in every country and paving the way for a communist world.

"Communists fight for the establishment of genuine socialism in the bureaucratic socialist states, but they do not do so in a way which weakens those countries in the face of imperialist aggression or emboldens or assists counterrevolutionary elements. We struggle for the ouster of the bureaucrats and their governing system, to be replaced by genuine workers’ democracy, while pointing out the need for the preservation of the gains represented by collectivized property, economic planning, and control of trade.

"The best way for the working class to defend the gains in these countries is to defend the countries themselves from attack by the imperialist powers while at the same time fighting for socialist revolutions in the remaining capitalist countries. The victory of socialist revolutions in the capitalist countries can create the openings necessary for the removal of the bureaucratic castes in the bureaucratized proletarian states (e.g. by revitalizing the working class internationally, reducing the ability of the bureaucracies to prop their rule by pointing to the need to defend the country from the imperialists, etc.)."

This link is dead.

Yeah, seems the page no longer exists. Sorry about that. The cached version is available here (http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:EmRXO-DucKMJ:ara.controlarms.org/library/Index/ENGASA250221998%3Fopen%26of%3DENG-2AS+%22Ha+Young-Joon%22+national+security+act&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us).

Armand Iskra

10th November 2008, 04:51

Philippines 12-Jul-00

Its good that you ahve stated the countries who had diplomatic ties with DPRK. However, before that, the underground communist movement (the CPP-NPA-NDF) in the Philippines, was recognized and given support by the DPRK, most likely in the 1980s. Other countries with underground movements like these would be recognized by the state before these fascist and US supported governments also joined in recognizing the socialist state.

Alvar

10th November 2008, 14:44

Don't expect any more responses from oblisk, he's been restricted.

I'm going to ask: Why?

Sasha

10th November 2008, 15:17

Basically, you're taking up the Shachtmanite position that "democratic" capitalism and imperialism are "better" than "Communism." One can look over the history of the various Shachtmanite sects (e.g. supporting the U.S. in its war against Viet Nam) to see where this sort of thing leads.

i have no idea what the shachtmanite position is, or what or who shachtmanite is.
But i do think capatalist social democracy is better than communism if by communism you mean autoritarian opresive regimes like the DPRK or Stalinist Russia.
Because i think those countrys are/were neither communsit nor socialist.

Alvar

10th November 2008, 19:45

i have no idea what the shachtmanite position is, or what or who shachtmanite is.
But i do think capatalist social democracy is better than communism if by communism you mean autoritarian opresive regimes like the DPRK or Stalinist Russia.
Because i think those countrys are/were neither communsit nor socialist.

Then I must ask why do you quote Dolores Ibárruri, or why do you say you're a ''commie'' in your usertitle.

Sasha

10th November 2008, 20:15

god, do i realy need to answer this?

because i am an communist, Stalinists, Juches, shining pathers and other of these murderous power hungery bastards are IMO not.
because for me communism is about freedom, equality and the abolishment of class, not about replacing the old class system with a new one, where everybody is equal but some just a bit more than others (and where if you would make an point of that you would dissapear).
so yeah, i'm an communist (in the anti-authoriarian tradition) but if like i say above, given the choice between living in an capitalist social democracy with all its faults but where
a. i nor anybody else starves to death
b. people have some freedom in living your life the way they want to live it
c. i can work to try and make what i believe to be communism a reality without getting excecuted or send to an concentration camp
or tolitarian dictatorships ik pick the former.

ever heard "holiday in cambodja" by the dead kennedys?
holiday in the ussr or holiday in the dprk are also not my dream destinations

a comrade from the spanish civel war that fought there with my great-uncle later survived both Dachau and the Gulag, and acording to him there were not much diffrences.

oh and pinko commie bastard is just a slur i got called by some amarican racist once.

Sasha

10th November 2008, 20:17

I'm going to ask: Why?

homophobia

Pirate turtle the 11th

10th November 2008, 21:08

He is banned now.

Shit man he was a fucking piece of shit.

Pogue

10th November 2008, 22:55

Might I add I was the first one to criticise him as soon as I heard he was a supporter of the DPRK. :D

Sankofa

11th November 2008, 01:39

Might I add I was the first one to criticise him as soon as I heard he was a supporter of the DPRK. :D

:rolleyes: You say that as if it's something to be proud of. Oblisk's views on homosexuality have nothing to do with the fact that he's a Jucheist.

I enjoyed his posts in this thread far more than that of any of you who are now cackling in the corner with all the luster of mere elementary school students now that he's been banned.

The fact is, Oblisk was still able to best the lot of you in this debate by using actual facts and history instead of the rhetoric you "anti-stalinists" consistently love to jerk each other off to.

At the time of his restriction, you still hadn't provided any of the evidence he was asking for to prove your shopping lists of claims about the DPRK...a request of his that was repeatedly ignored.

Oblisk is banned now, but don't pat yourselves on the back; it didn't have anything to do with anything you did or this thread.

Nothing Human Is Alien

11th November 2008, 02:25

psycho, your arguments are clearly not well thought out.

You should do some research if you are at all serious.

so yeah, i'm an communist (in the anti-authoriarian tradition) but if like i say above, given the choice between living in an capitalist social democracy with all its faults but where
a. i nor anybody else starves to death
b. people have some freedom in living your life the way they want to live it
c. i can work to try and make what i believe to be communism a reality without getting excecuted or send to an concentration camp
or tolitarian dictatorships ik pick the former.

It sounds like you're comparing living in a rich imperialist country with living in an encircled, isolated, backward bureaucratized proletarian state (without taking any of that into account).

Because there's certainly starvation in capitalist "democracies"... much more so than in any of the bureaucratized proletarian states. That's something "libertarian socialist" Chomsky recognizes: "...in India the democratic capitalist 'experiment' since 1947 has caused more deaths than in the entire history of the 'colossal, wholly failed...experiment' of Communism everywhere since 1917: over 100 million deaths by 1979, tens of millions more since, in India alone."

And one only has to look at Korea to see what a joke capitalism "freedom" is. In the "democratic" capitalist south, one can be imprisoned or killed simply for speaking against the government or U.S. occupiers.

As for being able to 'work for communism' without being locked up.. I suggest you do some reading. You might want to start by researching Mumia Abu-Jamal, Fred Hampton, Mark Clark, George Jackson, Ferdinando Sacco, Bartolomeo Vanzetti, Julius Rosenberg, Ethel Rosenberg, Sam Melville, George Engel, Adolph Fischer, Albert Parsons, Michael Swab, August Spies, Samuel Fielden, and Louis Lingo.

If you want to make a comparison, look at the Russian empire vs. the USSR, the USSR vs. the Russian Federation, Bautista's Cuba vs. revolutionary Cuba, Haiti vs. Cuba, etc. Don't compare the richest imperialist country in the world (and ignore things like the arrest and murder of communists!) with backwards imperialist-oppressed countries.

I'm not upholding the examples of the bureaucratized proletarian states. As I said earlier, it's simply a question of defending existing gains in order to fight for new ones. I don't support union bureaucrats either, but that doesn't mean I don't defend the unions themselves from the bosses' attacks.

Despite the bureaucrats that sat atop the bureaucratized proletarian states their existence represented gains for working people. That's why a majority of people in many of the places where proletarians state were overthrown wish they still existed:

Global crisis sends east Germans flocking to Marx (http://www.revleft.com/vb/../showthread.php?t=92227&highlight=east+germans+marx)

Most Hungarians think life was better under "communism" (http://powr-prm.org/hungarypresocialism.html)

Russians want Soviet Union back (http://www.revleft.com/vb/../showthread.php?t=92699&highlight=majority+russians)

And even if the imperialist-oppressed states were "just as bad" or "worse" than the imperialist states, that stilldoesn't mean you should line up with your own imperialist rulers against them!

a comrade from the spanish civel war that fought there with my great-uncle later survived both Dachau and the Gulag, and acording to him there were not much diffrences.

That's a second-hand anecdote.

"A friend of my grandpa's uncle, who fought in WWII, says the USSR was better than Belgium."

Doesn't that sound ridiculous?

Sasha

11th November 2008, 10:42

1 - you need to learn how to read; i said i prever capitalist SOCIAL-democracy over tolitarian dictatorship. i live in a social-democracy and there no one starves to death etc etc. i'm not talking about niether india nor the US, i'm talking social-democracy like holland, scandinavia etc.
and yes also over here i have been locked up for my activism regularly, but since i'm entiteld to a activist lawyer of my own choice but paid for by the state and given kind of a fair trial i'm always out after a reasonble time. and i'm at no risk to be excecuted or internt at an concetration camp. hell, i'n not even realy at risk now for being locked up for my beliefs, only for my actions. and i never said social-democracy is good, i said its better than tolitarian dictatorship.
and i do think you can draw that comparison, maybe not one on one with north-korea but surely between holland and the DDR for example.
and even in the dprk there is no excuse for excecuting dissidents, NEVER! and dont give me that crap, they do the same in south-korea. that is a bullshit argument and you know it.

2 - its not an seconhand anecdote, its a first hand anecdote and i spoke to the guy at lengts during my youth. but of cousre he was lying, because it was in his intrest to make a story up like that.

it is sure as hell way less ridicilous than claiming the gulags didn't exsist or weren't horrible, or claiming stalinst russia wasn't genocidal with their mass-deportations to siberia. oh wait all that evedidence, all those recorded witnesses, thats all fabricated by the evil imperialistsm isn't it? fuck you, if you believe that. Gulag denial isexcactly the same as holocaust denial.

Sasha

11th November 2008, 10:50

The fact is, Oblisk was still able to best the lot of you in this debate by using actual facts and history instead of the rhetoric you "anti-stalinists" consistently love to jerk each other off to.

At the time of his restriction, you still hadn't provided any of the evidence he was asking for to prove your shopping lists of claims about the DPRK...a request of his that was repeatedly ignored.

Oblisk is banned now, but don't pat yourselves on the back; it didn't have anything to do with anything you did or this thread.

funny how that works, any scienetific evidence & witness statements we give are always cast a side as being imperalist fabricated lies, but its ok for you lot to quote only offical state propaganda?
dubble standarts anyone?

but like i say in the post above, stalinist apoligists work excactly the same as holocaust revisionists. So not much point in trying to argue with them to be honnest

Panda Tse Tung

11th November 2008, 12:22

banned already?

Post-Something

11th November 2008, 12:42

:rolleyes: You say that as if it's something to be proud of. Oblisk's views on homosexuality have nothing to do with the fact that he's a Jucheist.

I enjoyed his posts in this thread far more than that of any of you who are now cackling in the corner with all the luster of mere elementary school students now that he's been banned.

The fact is, Oblisk was still able to best the lot of you in this debate by using actual facts and history instead of the rhetoric you "anti-stalinists" consistently love to jerk each other off to.

At the time of his restriction, you still hadn't provided any of the evidence he was asking for to prove your shopping lists of claims about the DPRK...a request of his that was repeatedly ignored.

Oblisk is banned now, but don't pat yourselves on the back; it didn't have anything to do with anything you did or this thread.

Actually, this is very true. Although he held reactionary views on homosexuality, he was a very competent debater, and I think he bested the majority of the people in this thread. Despite this, I still disagreed with him, but I have to admire his ability to defend his views under multiple attacks, while still being as polite as he was in this thread. To be perfectly honest, I was kind of looking forward to reading more of his ideas, that's mostly because I've never actually heard of anyone supporting the DPRK, and the fact that I know so little on the subject.

Actually, two unrelated points:

1. Why was he banned as opposed to simply restricted?

and

2. Are there any other supporters of the DPRK on this site?

Sankofa

11th November 2008, 13:22

funny how that works, any scienetific evidence & witness statements we give are always cast a side as being imperalist fabricated lies, but its ok for you lot to quote only offical state propaganda?
dubble standarts anyone?

but like i say in the post above, stalinist apoligists work excactly the same as holocaust revisionists. So not much point in trying to argue with them to be honnest

:lol: Nice try. Feel free to quote any "scientific evidence" you provided to support your baseless rhetoric in the discussion with Oblisk.

As for your "witness statements", like Comrade Nothing Human Is Alien pointed out to you: your sister's, uncle's, co-worker's, girlfriend's Alaskan Malamute's vagina's gynecologist is not an acceptable source.

@ Post-Something

Actually, two unrelated points:

1. Why was he banned as opposed to simply restricted?

and

2. Are there any other supporters of the DPRK on this site?

1. You would have to look in the Admin logs to see the exact reason...I haven't even checked yet.

2. None that I can think of. And after all the bullshit they have to take, even if all they do is make an introduction thread; if you were a Jucheist, would you bother with this site at all?

To be perfectly honest, I was kind of looking forward to reading more of his ideas, that's mostly because I've never actually heard of anyone supporting the DPRK, and the fact that I know so little on the subject.

Great time to start, no? :)

Juche Theory Index (http://www.korea-dpr.com/libindex.htm)

For all your study needs.

Robespierre2.0

11th November 2008, 13:27

I support the DPRK!

(grabs anglo-saxon protestant baby out of knapsack and bites head off)

However, looking at the shit Oblisk had to go through, I don't think it's worth it arguing with petit-bourgeois anti-authoritarians who make judgements based on 'common knowledge'

ex. "It is COMMON KNOWLEDGE that you would be dragged out into the street and shot if you said you didn't like Stalin's moustache in the USSR."

Fuck that. 'Common knowledge' is a complete cop out to any argument, and it makes me shoe-banging Kruschev angry when people use it.
Please, please, please- argue using:
Logos and Ethos (pathos is overrused)

Anyways, sorry to interrupt.
Continue with your Anti-Stalinist circle jerk.

Sankofa

11th November 2008, 13:42

Sasha

11th November 2008, 13:59

:lol: Nice try. Feel free to quote any "scientific evidence" you provided to support your baseless rhetoric in the discussion with Oblisk.

As for your "witness statements", like Comrade Nothing Human Is Alien pointed out to you: your sister's, uncle's, co-worker's, girlfriend's Alaskan Malamute's vagina's gynecologist is not an acceptable source.

:blink: its realy hard for you to read isn't? i already said i personaly had long talks with this guy. first hand testomony from an actual survivor of both dachau and the gulag is not hearsay you know and is an aceptable source.

oh, and don't acuse people from using lame discussion tactics if you your self are using them as well.
cause i haven't seen any evidince from your side supporting your baseless rethoric either.
if íll go and find you some scientific data suporting my position on the DPRK, will you do the same?

Sankofa

11th November 2008, 14:21

:blink: its realy hard for you to read isn't? i already said i personaly had long talks with this guy. first hand testomony from an actual survivor of both dachau and the gulag is not hearsay you know and is an aceptable source.

oh, and don't acuse people from using lame discussion tactics if you your self are using them as well.
cause i haven't seen any evidince from your side supporting your baseless rethoric either.
if íll go and find you some scientific data suporting my position on the DPRK, will you do the same?

Still talking and saying nothing?

And please show me any claims I made in this thread that need to be sourced.

Sasha

11th November 2008, 14:34

first the obvious data (http://hrnk.org/hiddengulag/toc.html) (first hit on google) but since they are published by an amarican congress & senate affeliated group its off-course all "imperialist lies" so i'l look further.

hey the searchengine on the human right watch site delivers 57 articels about the DPRK, have fun reading them (http://search.hrw.org/search?num=10&access=p&sort=date_3AD_3AL_3Ad1&output=xml_no_dtd&site=default_collection&ie=UTF-8&btnG=Google%2BSearch&oe=UTF-8&client=hrw_frontend&proxystylesheet=hrw_frontend&q=dprk&ip=62.59.41.35&start=10) oh wait looking for north-korea gives 1460 (http://search.hrw.org/search?q=north+korea&num=10&sort=date_3AD_3AL_3Ad1&output=xml_no_dtd&oe=UTF-8&ie=UTF-8&client=hrw_frontend&proxystylesheet=hrw_frontend&site=default_collection)hits, damn those liers are bussy brewing lies.
and to cover up those lies they also post a few reports mentioning their imperialist masters of the USA, 38.200 times (http://search.hrw.org/search?q=united+states&num=10&output=xml_no_dtd&sort=date_3AD_3AL_3Ad1&client=hrw_frontend&oe=UTF-8&ie=UTF-8&proxystylesheet=hrw_frontend&site=default_collection)to be excact, wow thats more than 36.000 more!! what an devious and cunning intricate plot.

and i'll be damned, amnesty also has tons of reports out on the DPRK, like here (http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/ASA24/002/2006/en/dom-ASA240022006en.html), and here (http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/ASA24/003/2000/en/dom-ASA240032000en.html) and even more here (http://www.amnesty.org/en/ai_search?keywords=dprk&form_id=search_theme_form&form_token=0c7be599fe54f47326639a571407c654), fuck, their search engine spews out more than a thousand hits (http://www.amnesty.org/en/ai_search?keywords=north+korea&form_id=search_theme_form&form_token=7bcd3da9930e66fcbe79420339cbfae2) it must be al fabricated lies, all of them
but you know what? they slam the US as well also (also more than a thousand hits (http://www.amnesty.org/en/ai_search?keywords=united+states&form_id=search_theme_form&form_token=5685ec5a8d4883e1f72c2992f37b3438)) so i guess maybe they are, well you know, what is it called? ah, non-partisan... that was the word i was looking for.

and that in 5 minutes playing with google...

surely you can come up with a serious number of non-partsian reports telling us how wonderfull the DPRK is in return. :rolleyes:

Panda Tse Tung

11th November 2008, 14:56

Sasha

11th November 2008, 15:00

Still talking and saying nothing?

and the first nominated in the calling the kettle black competion is......

Sasha

11th November 2008, 15:06

Look psycho. Nobody's saying Amnesty International isn't trying to be an independent organization.

But the simple fact is they can't be an independent organization. They are continuously influenced by the Western media, western moral standards and what not. And you as an anti-fascist should know how the fuck the media works (I'll hint you: not independently).

wich is absolutly true, but since first hand acounts on both the DPRK as the Stalinist gullag from people i absolutly trust are dissmissed also it doen't leave much to debate on now doesn't?
i know there is not such an thing as an objectivic debate, evrything is subjectiv, this is at core of modern philisophical and scientific thinking
but why is it fair to dismiss critism because its based on facts from somewhat partisan sources and is it ok to be all power struck by state propaganda fairytales?

wich is why i say that there are ery similarities between stalinist-apologists and holocaust deniares, they both work by the same logic.

and i for myself know its not possible for me to have an reasonble debate with stalinists because i think stalinism isn't reasonble, its religion in a secular jacket.
but i'm at home with the flu and like to keep myself occupied.

Sankofa

11th November 2008, 15:08

Psycho...you didn't prove anything with that last post.

You simply went to Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch and searched "North Korea" and said "lulzors have fun reading!"

Those are articles are generated by a google search, and happen to be about North Korea and human rights in general...meaning some of them have a negative or a positive spin on the DPRK. Some aren't even about human rights at all, and deal with the famine and nuclear program. You can search for any country and get twice the amount of articles.

I don't see how that proves any of the claims you made with Oblisk in your discussion.

Sasha

11th November 2008, 15:27

11th November 2008, 15:57

Still, in spite of the bureaucracy at the helm in the DPRK, communists still defend the country against imperialism and support the gains there (e.g. collectivized property, monopoly on foreign trade, universal healthcare and education, etc.).Do you have any info on any of this? I've never heard of DPRK's universal healthcare/education programs.

EDIT: Btw, could this get moved to politics? It seems more appropriate there, and maybe more people will start participating.

Pogue

11th November 2008, 19:40

Still talking and saying nothing?

And please show me any claims I made in this thread that need to be sourced.

You make pointless claims because you have no evidence that the DPRK isn't a shithole. Stop fetishing it just because it claims to like Stalin and is a 'victim of imperialism'. If it wasn't such a shithole it would have some form of democracy and wouldn't be receiving so much aid, and it would freely allow journalists into the country.

To be honest, this isn't worth debating, because you'll just dodge the facts in some pointless twisted defence of the highest tyranny because you're still romanticising about the USSR being the international workers vanguard and Stalin being the true leader of the workers movement, and so will attach yourself religiously to any regime, no matter how oppresive and murderous, just because it calls itself socialist.

As a true socialist I don't support any authoritarian state which practices capitalism in any form, hence I despise North Korea's economic and political system. Now take the Stalin posters down, stop saving for that Soviet tank and wake up.

JimmyJazz

11th November 2008, 19:57

You make pointless claims because you have no evidence that the DPRK isn't a shithole. Stop fetishing it just because it claims to like Stalin and is a 'victim of imperialism'. If it wasn't such a shithole it would have some form of democracy and wouldn't be receiving so much aid, and it would freely allow journalists into the country.

To be honest, this isn't worth debating, because you'll just dodge the facts in some pointless twisted defence of the highest tyranny because you're still romanticising about the USSR being the international workers vanguard and Stalin being the true leader of the workers movement, and so will attach yourself religiously to any regime, no matter how oppresive and murderous, just because it calls itself socialist.

As a true socialist I don't support any authoritarian state which practices capitalism in any form, hence I despise North Korea's economic and political system. Now take the Stalin posters down, stop saving for that Soviet tank and wake up.

Man, it's posts like this that create Anti-Revisionists.

By now I am aware that there is a solid revolutionary Marxist case to be made against Stalin and Stalinism. But it's clear from this post, and most of psycho's, that some 'socialists' are relying on bourgeois propaganda to make the case against him and it. Which is bullshit.

I mean, placing the burden of proof on others to prove that the DPRK "isn't a shithole"? Putting "victim of imperialism" in quotes with regard to North Korea? Especially on the second point (the first one is merely a matter of bad logic), are you serious?

Sankofa

11th November 2008, 20:15

(See post #76)

Pogue

11th November 2008, 20:17

Doesn't North Korea receive loads of foreign aid from the 'imperialists'? Or is that boureosie lies? And its no secret that the USSR was, and now North Korea is, a shithole. Like I said its hardly worth arguing.

Dimentio

11th November 2008, 20:28

I will do two things.

Firstly, move this thread to Theory, where we could discuss the eventual merits and the rumoured ills of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea in more detail.

Secondly, I will link this treasure - the Collected works of Great Leader Kim Il-Sung and Dear Leader Kim Jong-Il (http://www.korea-dpr.com/library/entrance.htm) to the boards, so that people could read the works of these two impressing ideologists and get a clear view on their opinions*.

* IRONY WARNING

Sasha

11th November 2008, 20:41

[offtopic] anyone know the translation of the dutch expresion "balk in eigen oog"? it would be so relevant in this discussion.... [offtopic]

BobKKKindle$

11th November 2008, 20:47

Doesn't North Korea receive loads of foreign aid from the 'imperialists'?Under the terms of the 1994 Agreed Framework, the US was supposed to provide North Korea with two light-water nuclear reactors at a cost of around $4 billion, which would have allowed the government to reduce its dependence on imported fossil fuels and maintain a stable flow of electricity throughout the country, and end the crushing economic sanctions which are currently being used to undermine economic development and prevent North Korea from trading with the outside world. The change to a Republican administration led to this agreement collapsing despite the North's cooperation in ending its nuclear program and allow inspectors from the IAEA to enter the country and maintain checks on nuclear sites. This shows that North Korea is not receiving "loads" of aid. The only substantial aid that the North is receiving is limited quantities of oil from the PRC, as the Chinese government recognizes that the collapse of the North Korea government would allow the imperialist bloc to enhance its influence in the region, and would also cause a sudden flood of refugees into China.

I've already explained the causes behind poverty in North Korea in the other threads on this subject in Politics, but you have not responded. North Korea is an oppressed nation which has suffered from imperialism, first under direct Japanese occupation, then during the war of aggression conducted by the United States and the rest of the imperialist bloc on the pretext of defending the South, and recently through economic sanctions and the threat of invasion.

Now take the Stalin posters down...As a Trotskyist, I call for the unconditional military defense of all oppressed nations, including North Korea, so this comment simply exposes your political ignorance and opportunism.

Like I said its hardly worth arguing. You don't want to argue the issue because you have consistently failed to provide logical arguments or evidence in support of your opportunism.

JimmyJazz

11th November 2008, 20:52

Doesn't North Korea receive loads of foreign aid from the 'imperialists'? Or is that boureosie lies?

Really, it's not worth talking about it with you if you don't think North Korea and every other self-proclaimed socialist state, from the most libertarian to the outright Stalinist ones, has been the object of Western imperialism, both military and economic.

The only difference between libertarian socialist and authoritarian socialist regimes, with regard to imperialism, is that the authoritarian regimes actually survive it (temporarily).

And yes, North Korea has bargained for aid at the six-party talks. What's your point? It's the nature of Stalinist regimes to bargain with imperialist governments. The imperialist governments get a double benefit: (1) it gets the socialist regime to abandon any internationalist foreign policy which would have promoted working class insurgency in the imperialist countries and threatened the imperialist government's hold on state power, and (2) it eventually produces an isolated socialist state in a sea of capitalism, so that domestic conditions worsen for the population of the socialist country, and can be used as capitalist propaganda. This is what happened in Western relation with the Soviets under Stalin following WWII, and it's been repeated elsewhere. The kind of socialist governments that the U.S. wouldn't ever sit down and talk with are the internationalist ones, like Cuba. Internationalism is the one thing that simply cannot be tolerated.

the USSR was...a shithole.

Gotcha. Have a nice day.

Sasha

11th November 2008, 21:00

If you're claiming all these extremities about the DPRK why shouldn't you cite your sources if the information is at all viable?

don't you find it a tat funny that i have no problem finding arguments/facts online against most of the "extremities" raised against cuba (i'm no castro fan either but i do support cuba) but that when it comes to the DPRK the best you can do is scream "proof it!" over and over again?

but al right, last try, lets just take this (http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/ASA24/002/2006/en/dom-ASA240022006en.html)report of amnesty, if i regoisei that it has an inherent western cultural bias, will you then please either proof that they are falls or defend the charges raised in the report in the light of the specific situation of the DPRK that makes these things o.k. ?

its such an easy cop out to reject everything raised about the DPRK on the arguments that you have been doing.

and if anything, the lack of un-biased, un-partisan data, statements and witness acounts proofs the point raised that north-korea is extremly isolated.

Sankofa

11th November 2008, 21:08

i claim there are gulag like conctration camps, excecutions, total isolation, torture, mass repression, dissapearences, no free press, no freedom at all as a matter off fact and i provided sources wich back up those claims, didn't take the effort to spell out all the data in the reports because i think this shouldn't be one way trafic.
oblisk and others claimed that my statements are not true, i would like sources that underwrite that postion in return, is that much to ask? tit for tat you know.

Please look up burden of proof.

If you're claiming all these extremities about the DPRK why shouldn't you cite your sources if the information is at all viable?

Oh, and you didn't "spell out anything", you searched for "North Korea, Human rights" and sent me a link to the query results instead of pointing out a specific source to back you up. Again...nice try.

You make pointless claims because you have no evidence that the DPRK isn't a shithole. Stop fetishing it just because it claims to like Stalin and is a 'victim of imperialism'. If it wasn't such a shithole it would have some form of democracy and wouldn't be receiving so much aid, and it would freely allow journalists into the country.

What "pointless claims" have I made about North Korea? You guys keep accusing me of this but fail to actually show where I said those things. I didn't "fetishize" anything. The Korean Peninsula is a victim of imperialism; the North and the South, and should be supported as such. And I don't think anyone denied that North Korea had problems.

To be honest, this isn't worth debating, because you'll just dodge the facts in some pointless twisted defence of the highest tyranny because you're still romanticising about the USSR being the international workers vanguard and Stalin being the true leader of the workers movement, and so will attach yourself religiously to any regime, no matter how oppresive and murderous, just because it calls itself socialist.

You have to provide facts before I have the opportunity to dodge anything. I didn't attach myself to anything...from the beginning I said none of us here had a good working knowledge of the DPRK, which anyone who read this thread can clearly see.

I align my self with truth, and not the popular clique that loves to mindlessly bash a country, idelogy and system they know little about.

Do you have any info on any of this? I've never heard of DPRK's universal healthcare/education programs.
Since you asked; universal health care and education are provided:

As in other communist countries, politics come first in the education system. In his 1977 "Theses on Socialist Education," Kim Il Sung wrote that "political and ideological education is the most important part of socialist education. Only through a proper political and ideological education is it possible to rear students as revolutionaries, equipped with a revolutionary world outlook and the ideological and moral qualities of a communist.

Because of the emphasis on the continued education of all members of society, adult or work-study education is actively supported. Practically everyone in the country participates in some educational activity, usually in the form of "small study groups." In the 1980s, the adult literacy rate was estimated at 99 percent.

(Source→Andrea Matles Savada, ed. North Korea: A Country Study, Education (http://countrystudies.us/north-korea/42.htm))

The socialist system in our country is the best socialist system, under which the working masses are the masters of everything and everything serves them. The true superiority of this system finds clear expression in the people orientated health service by which the state assumes full responsibility for the health care of the people . By the Public Health Law, everyone in our country is entitled to medical treatment, and universal and entirely free medical care is given to the working people, so that they are relived of worrying about any medical treatment.

Emphasis mine.

(Source→On further improvement of the health service by Kim Jong-Il (http://www.korea-dpr.com/library/o.htm))

See? This is what you do when you make claims. You provide credible sources to, at least, give semi-validity to what you're saying.

Sankofa

11th November 2008, 21:11

Secondly, I will link this treasure - the Collected works of Great Leader Kim Il-Sung and Dear Leader Kim Jong-Il (http://www.korea-dpr.com/library/entrance.htm) to the boards, so that people could read the works of these two impressing ideologists and get a clear view on their opinions*.

* IRONY WARNING

Don't bother Serpent, they won't read it. I've already linked this like three times.

You don't want to argue the issue because you have consistently failed to provide logical arguments or evidence in support of your opportunism.

Thank you...I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees it.

Nothing Human Is Alien

11th November 2008, 21:13

1 - you need to learn how to read; i said i prever capitalist SOCIAL-democracy over tolitarian dictatorship. i live in a social-democracy and there no one starves to death etc etc.Again, how is that comparison fair? You are comparing the imperialist Netherlands with half of a former colony that is encircled and isolated, with the army of the strongest and richest country the world has ever known stationed at its border.

i'm not talking about niether india nor the US, i'm talking social-democracy like holland, scandinavia etc.The creation of the "social-democracies" (which are deteriorating by the day, btw), came out of very specific circumstances. Those circumstances never existed in north Korea, so the comparison is ridiculous.

and yes also over here i have been locked up for my activism regularly, but since i'm entiteld to a activist lawyer of my own choice but paid for by the state and given kind of a fair trial i'm always out after a reasonble time. and i'm at no risk to be excecuted or internt at an concetration camp. hell, i'n not even realy at risk now for being locked up for my beliefs, only for my actions. and i never said social-democracy is good, i said its better than tolitarian dictatorship.There's no justice in capitalist courts, "social-democracies" or elsewhere. If you really threatened the rule of capital, you would find that out.

and i do think you can draw that comparison, maybe not one on one with north-korea but surely between holland and the DDR for example.The GDR was a bureaucratized proletarian state. Capitalism was overthrown from above by the Red Army, and the state was modeled on the degenerated USSR. Gains existed in spite of the bureaucracy at the top of the state. That's what communists defended in the GDR, not the bureaucracy.

I defend the Transit Workers Union here in New York from the bosses' attacks, while at the same time condemning the treachery of the union's president. While fighting against the bosses attacks on the union, I urge my fellow workers to oust the bureaucracy and take control of the organization themselves.

Unfortunately, you appear incapable of recognizing gains when they are obscured.

and even in the dprk there is no excuse for excecuting dissidents, NEVER! and dont give me that crap, they do the same in south-korea. that is a bullshit argument and you know it.You are the one that wants to compare "democratic" capitalism and "totalitarian Stalinism."

I didn't defend executing "dissidents." I simply pointed out that the most comparible capitalist country (indeed, the other half of the country in question) committs does the same thing as the DPRK.

2 - its not an seconhand anecdote, its a first hand anecdote and i spoke to the guy at lengts during my youth. but of cousre he was lying, because it was in his intrest to make a story up like that.Sorry for the mistake on the degree. Still, an anecdote is an anecdote.

it is sure as hell way less ridicilous than claiming the gulags didn't exsist or weren't horrible, or claiming stalinst russia wasn't genocidal with their mass-deportations to siberia. I never claimed their weren't gulags or that they weren't horrible.

As for "genocide," you're clearly misusing the term. I don't have to defend deportations to point that out.

Do you have any info on any of this? I've never heard of DPRK's universal healthcare/education programs.

I'm not sure what you're looking for. Proof? Healthcare and education is guaranteed to everyone, though the economic crises in the county has of course caused what is available to dwindle. And of course the bureaucrats have special access that others don't.

Just some quick googling brought up some mentions of universal healthcare and education in the north: "North Korea once boasted an extensive public health system in the 1960s and 70s, providing universal free health care for its population. But it has been seriously strained by the country's economic problems, and serious food and energy shortages." - BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1666806.stm)

"Cuba: Cuba is one of the most Socialist nations, as it has a mostly state-run economy, universal healthcare, government-paid education at all levels, and a number of of social programs. It does not have a stock exchange.

"North Korea: The same is true of North Korea, which has an almost entirely state-run economy, as well as the same social programs mentioned for Cuba." - AC
(http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/56207/list_of_socialist_countries_with_individual.html)
* * *

Anyway, I don't want to spend a lot of time talking about this. We've had several threads on this before: Here's one (http://www.revleft.com/vb/liberty-north-korea-t63904/index.html?t=63904&highlight=dprk)..

BobKKKindle$

11th November 2008, 21:13

don't you find it a tat funny that i have

Can you at least try and make your posts coherent before other people have to read them? The report you linked to actually supports many of the arguments I have been making in this thread, and the other threads where North Korea is currently being discussed, because the report acknowledges that the country's topography is one of the most important causes of the ongoing food crisis, and so this crisis cannot be attributed solely to the policies adopted by the government. It is true that the government's emphasis on building up military strength may have been a contributing factor as it meant that less resources, especially in the form of manpower, were available for the agricultural sector, but this policy must be understood within the context of imperialist encirclement and the threat of invasion. When a government has endured persistent attempts to violate its national sovereignty (for example, the USS Pueblo incident in 1968) and is being deliberately isolated by a country with a history of aggression, it is not unreasonable for the government to transfer resources to the military, including the nuclear program.

As for the other complaints listed in the article, many of them reflect a bourgeois morality which is entirely divorced from material reality. The article criticizes the government for executing individuals who have been found guilty of passing on information to the South Korean government or conspiring against the state, but communists should recognize that execution is an appropriate punishment for this crime under any circumstances, but especially when a country is facing intense isolation and needs to defend its sovereignty.

apathy maybe

11th November 2008, 21:42

*Yawn*

I was thinking about starting a thread asking people to provide referenced and sourced statements about what North Korea is like, but I obviously don't have to. And I would be really embarrassed if I had have, considering the quality of the replies here...

Some questions for "supporters" of North Korea.

Do the "people" in NK have a say in the running of the government comparable to the say that people in countries like Australia or Cuba have?

Is execution a relatively common method of punishment? (It is in China I know.) If so, for what "crimes"?

Is there freedom of expression to a level comparable to countries such as Australia, UK and similar, including such things as being able to say what one likes, and publish what one likes. This includes being able to criticise the government, the ruling party and the leader.

Is there freedom of association, such as being able to join a union, a church or a political party? If there is limited freedom of association, what sorts of groups aren't people allowed to join, and why?

Is the "hero worship" that we see of Mr Kim compatible with socialism (an ideology about equality)?

Is it at all socialistic that the sons of Mr Kim are able to travel freely abroad (often with fake passports)?

Are the "people" of North Korea as free to travel internationall
Is it at all socialistic that the sons of Mr Kim are able to travel freely abroad (often with fake passports)? y (according to North Korean law), without interference?

Sasha

11th November 2008, 21:43

^you forgot an important one: is it true that citizens are divded by the state in difrent catogories based on the suposed sympathety of their families towards the regime? And that this label (member, sympathetic or enemy i believe) has concequences on the amount of food, education and healtcare you get? Wich means that if you uncle our grandma ever said sommething nasty about the great leader it could mean that your kids starve in this country wich haves regular famines? and if this is true, how is this socialist, free and universal like you claim?

Please look up burden of truth.

i did, most sites are about an concept death-metal about the da vincy code, not realy my thing.... :rolleyes:
you have to give me some more directions here because i have no clue wat i should be looking.

BobKKKindle$

11th November 2008, 22:25

AM, I don't have time to respond to all of those issues, but there is something I want to deal with. Citizens of Australia and other countries may have the right to publicize their own views and criticize the government, in the sense that they are unlikely to be sent to prison if they set up their own media station and point out all the things that the government has done wrong, whereas this would take place in North Korea. However, a distinction needs to be made between an abstract legal right, and the realistic ability of an ordinary individual to do something. The vast majority of people living in Australia do not have the financial or technical resources to compete with the media monopolies due to the inherent limitations and injustices of the capitalist system, and so as long as Australia remains a capitalist country, the means of communication will remain in the hands of a small number of vast corporations, and the range of viewpoints will be limited as all of these corporations have a vested interest in discouraging people from challenging the status quo. As absurd as this may seem, the nature of the media sector under capitalism is not entirely dissimilar to the kind of system which exists in North Korea, except in the latter case the entirety of the media is controlled by the state, not multiple firms.

A similar principle is true of international travel. There is no law to prevent someone living in Somalia from travelling to Hong Kong and having a long and relaxing holiday there, but in terms of financial resources this is not a realistic possibility for all but a small group of Somalis. This is a constant occurance under capitalism - economic inequalities limit the ability of an individual to fully exercise their legal rights.

Sankofa

11th November 2008, 22:33

^you forgot an important one: is it true that citizens are divded by the state in difrent catogories based on the suposed sympathety of their families towards the regime? And that this label (member, sympathetic or enemy i believe) has concequences on the amount of food, education and healtcare you get? Wich means that if you uncle our grandma ever said sommething nasty about the great leader it could mean that your kids starve in this country wich haves regular famines? and if this is true, how is this socialist, free and universal like you claim?

i did, most sites are about an concept death-metal about the da vincy code, not realy my thing.... :rolleyes:
you have to give me some more directions here because i have no clue wat i should be looking.

My mistake...that should say Burden of proof.

As for your first query: :confused:

I'll admit I've never heard of this and can neither say if it's true or untrue.

But then again, I never claimed to be anymore knowledgeable about the DPRK than others here; that was Oblisk's area.

Sasha

11th November 2008, 23:13

My mistake...that should say Burden of proof.

its ok, i looked it up and good point, offcourse you cant ask someone to proof that sommething (gulags) doesn't excist although i think its still not unfair to ask from sympathisers of the DPRK what is is the base of that sympathy.
because if its only the fact that the USA doesn't like them or the fact that the regime claim they are socialist its not realy a good reason imo.

thats why i asked why its wrong if people believe some of the negative facts presented by both hostile groups and non-partsian NGO's (but with an admitted western cultural bias) but its ok to base your defence entirely on offcial state propaganda.

its like the debate about the health of kim jong ill, if the western inteligence services claim you have had two strokes recently and the best you can do to refute that is presenting one picture wich is impossible to date it doesn't realy do much good for convincing people of your side of the story. Even for people with very negative opinions of western inteligense services, like me.
Now, dont get me wrong, i can i understand it can have an strategic advantage not to disclose kim jong il's medical condition so maybe there is also an stratigical advantage to not open the supposed concetrationcamp/galag sites to independent human rights observers (not that i can think of an good reason not to do that if its not true, but thats not the point i'm trying to make)

but i agree, the only person with some what of an (although also an higly partsian and biased) understanding about north-korea here was oblesik and he is gone.

and this assesment (that no-ones knows what goes one in north-korea) again proves IMO my original claim wich sparked this whole debate, that the DPRK is extremly isolated. And for me that means that its not an free society. and socialism without freedom is tyranny. (imo again offcourse)

Panda Tse Tung

12th November 2008, 01:11

[offtopic] anyone know the translation of the dutch expresion "balk in eigen oog"? it would be so relevant in this discussion.... [offtopic]

Actually thats a biblical statement ;).
It's Matthew 7:3.
"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"

is it true that citizens are divded by the state in difrent catogories based on the suposed sympathety of their families towards the regime?

I have heard such a claims coming from defectors regularly. The problem is that defectors usually A. hate the regime already and B. as could be seen with old Soviet-dissidents, are probably very well paid if they make exaggerated claims.
So, this could just be part of a campaign to place the DPRK in a bad light. I'm not saying it could not happen, the country is too isolated to judge on that. But i wouldn't be too surprised if it'd be a fabrication either.

Wanted Man

12th November 2008, 01:34

So what do people think of this report (http://www.nlg.org/korea/2003delegation_report.html) by the National Lawyers Guild?

See, there is a reason why I don't bother with these discussions too often. I really think that a lot of the self-described "anti-stalinists" will just dismiss it and say: "I'm not reading that commie propaganda. Now start arguing, instead of just calling my sources imperialist propaganda."

http://tshirtmaven.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/a812_bm1.gif

It's basically back-and-forth, one side will never accept the validity of the other, neither their arguments nor their sources. One person suggested that his opponents are dangerous idiots, who can easily be compared to nazi holocaust deniers. Of course nobody's going to put in a serious debating effort when his opponents are arguing from that premise.

Sasha

12th November 2008, 10:50

So what do people think of this report (http://www.nlg.org/korea/2003delegation_report.html) by the National Lawyers Guild?

i dont have time now, but i wil try to read it over the weekend.

apathy maybe

17th November 2008, 10:30

Do the "people" in NK have a say in the running of the government comparable to the say that people in countries like Australia or Cuba have?

As in Cuba and other one party socialist societies, North Korea has a system of direct democracy in which elections are held for local peoples committees, district and provincial committees and to the Supreme People’s Assembly. The absence of other parties is not considered a failing, as the entire society is socialist. The question of multiple parties did not even seem understandable to those we spoke to. The delegation questioned whether within that system, there is in fact more participatory democracy than in the American federal system or the parliamentary system in which democracy ceases to operate once the elections are over. It is more circular, with local committees sending up to the next level requests, complaints and so on and so on up to the national level with discussion, at least in theory at these levels and then feedback to the local level until an agreement is reached based on resources available and circumstances.

Is execution a relatively common method of punishment? (It is in China I know.) If so, for what "crimes"?

We were told that there was no death penalty and that the maximum penalty for any crime is 12 years, with the objective being to try to determine why the person committed the crime and to help that person become a productive member of society. A lack of a death penalty was seen by the delegation as a sign of a civilized nation. There appear to be labor camps where people work out their sentences. No effort was made to hide the presence of these camps. The U.S. media’s recent reports on the poor conditions, high mortality rate and lack of proper care or food, in the camps requires further investigation. In light of the false and exaggerated claims about starvation in the country in general, these reports must be viewed with a grain of salt. We will ask to visit these camps on future delegations.
Regarding this issue, I just did a quick search and came up with the following pages that suggest the death penalty is in force and in use in North Korea.
http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=2078&size=
http://www.handsoffcain.info/archivio_news/200603.php?iddocumento=8310651&mover=1

Defectors and refugee reports over several years indicate that the regime executed political prisoners, opponents of the regime, some repatriated defectors, and others, including military officers suspected of espionage or of plotting against Kim Jong Il. Criminal law makes the death penalty mandatory for activities "in collusion with imperialists" aimed at "suppressing the national liberation struggle." Prisoners have been sentenced to death for such ill-defined "crimes" as "ideological divergence," "opposing socialism," and "counterrevolutionary crimes." In its 2001 report to the U.N. Human Rights Committee, the Government claimed that it had reduced the number of criminal offences carrying the death penalty from 33 to 5; the Committee, while welcoming this reduction, noted that 4 of the 5 offences were essentially political and "couched in terms so broad that the imposition of the death penalty may be subject to essentially subjective criteria, and not confined to the 'most serious crimes' only…."
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2003/27775.htm
(Yes the State Department is a very non-biased source, that's why I link to them...)
http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/overview.html Yes, no source or reference...
http://www.nswccl.org.au/issues/death_penalty/asiapac.php#NKorea

Considering the variety of sources, and the different dates (the quote from NLG is from 2003, other links are from earlier and later), I suggest that this throws doubt on that section of Lawyers report.

The death penalty question was included partly to test whether the sources where useful or not. It is a non-political (to a certain extent) question which should be easily answered. It obviously isn't easily answered.

Is there freedom of expression to a level comparable to countries such as Australia, UK and similar, including such things as being able to say what one likes, and publish what one likes. This includes being able to criticise the government, the ruling party and the leader.

We asked about the penalties for crimes against the state and whether there was a separate system for those crimes. There is not, but provisions are made for crimes that present a “social danger.” This seems consistent with a socialist society organized around the “common good,” but very general and could be subject to abuse. How it is applied remains to be discovered. However, the North Koreans we met with seemed professed to not understanding how someone would really formally challenge the decisions of the collective, as there is, according to them, an elaborate mechanisms for participation and input at various levels off society.

Is there freedom of association, such as being able to join a union, a church or a political party? If there is limited freedom of association, what sorts of groups aren't people allowed to join, and why?

Is the "hero worship" that we see of Mr Kim compatible with socialism (an ideology about equality)?

Is it at all socialistic that the sons of Mr Kim are able to travel freely abroad (often with fake passports)?

Are the "people" of North Korea as free to travel internationally (according to North Korean law), without interference?

Is it at all socialistic that the sons of Mr Kim are able to travel freely abroad (often with fake passports)?

Some other things. I've been informed by a South Korean that military service in the North is ten years. This text says three.

I didn't read the entire text, and considering that some of it conflicts with other "eye witness reports" (including linked to in this very thread), I'll take it with a grain of salt as well.

Anyone want to have a stab at answering the questions I asked that didn't get answered?