What is the Use of Democracy if......

[Lardlad95]

What is the use of Democracy if you can't have an opinion.

If you are ostracized for expressing your right to disagree.


One girl told me that "they" would do the same to me as they did to Sadaam because I disagreed with the war.

Suddenly if you don't like having young citizens being sent off to kill and be killed your a terrorist.

other countries aren't allowed an opinion if that opinion isn't with that of the united states

thats evident because of the drop in american consumer's buying french product post "operation iraqi freedom"


the whole point of this so called war (it was really a jack) was to bring democracy to iraq then I hope we don't bring them american democracy because it's no different than sadaam, being persecuted for expressing an opinion

[Vinny Rafarino]

agreed LL....it's a sorry state of affairs.

Can you believe these fucking guys? Freedom Fries?
Boycott french wine??

It's so bloody juvenile it actually makes me chuckle.

It's too bad John W. Hinkley, Jr is in jail. He had some brass fucking balls.

[Lardlad95]

My biggest beef is that they make this big point of American Freedoms...but those freedoms come at the price of being ostracized

[antieverything]

..the best part is that some boycots were abandoned because the products were made by American workers in American factories...the French were using America as a source of cheap labor! Isn't that an attack on their national pride? What good is it being the richest country in the world if we get paid shit!

[restrictedfreedom]

in my opinion democracy is about disagreement. so naturally normal citizens are going to fight and probably ostracize one and another. i don't think this sort of thing is ever government sponsered though.

though i would admit that i wish the two party system would crack a bit, i guess those other parties just don't get majority support at the moment. this is why we have to spread our respective messages.

[Lardlad95]

Quote: from restrictedfreedom on 1:42 am on May 30, 2003
in my opinion democracy is about disagreement. so naturally normal citizens are going to fight and probably ostracize one and another. i don't think this sort of thing is ever government sponsered though.

though i would admit that i wish the two party system would crack a bit, i guess those other parties just don't get majority support at the moment. this is why we have to spread our respective messages.

No it isn't just individual citizens ostracizing people it's the majority of national opinion at the moment that if you aren't with bush you are somehow some kind of anti-american terrorist.

Now I may be a socialsit but I'm not against the American Public

also what you call a two party system i call a two party dictatorship

[synthesis]

Quote: from antieverything on 4:15 am on May 29, 2003
..the best part is that some boycots were abandoned because the products were made by American workers in American factories...the French were using America as a source of cheap labor! LOL!!!

[Pete]

I take flack for expressing my self because "if a country is nice enough to give you freedoms the least you could do is support it because it can take your freedoms away. you wouldn't want that now would you?" Those hypocritical right-wing bastards deserve whatever comes to them.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

though Americans should freel free to ostracize one another, it should be pointed out that the source of the problem is the narrow-minded mentality. It is not truly freedom, if there are consequences from the people, but that's not to say thet there should be some sort of restiction. The problem is the fact that Americans are not willing to tolerate opposing points of view. It should also be pointed out that there is a problem between freedom of speech and freedom to simply disagree, and sheer intolerance. Especilay if that intolerance is in defense of a jingoistic president.

(Edited by Victorcommie at 11:43 pm on May 29, 2003)

[Zombie]

Interesting how no cappy replied so far to such a provocative thread.

Maybe they're too afraid to admit that what LardLad said is true.

LL, America isn't a real democracy, it's pure state fascism.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Interesting how no cappy replied so far to such a provocative thread.
Maybe they're too afraid to admit that what LardLad said is true.
LL, America isn't a real democracy, it's pure state fascism.

I hope those silly little pricks start posting soon...We all agree with each other...makes for quite an insipid debate.



(Edited by COMRADE RAF at 9:03 am on May 30, 2003)

[Urban Rubble]

If you want the cappies to take you seriously you can't make statements like "America is state facism". While it's true that we are exhibiting some fascist like symptoms I think we are a long way off from full on fascism.

I agree with everything else said though.

[restrictedfreedom]

Quote: from Lardlad95 on 1:51 am on May 30, 2003

Quote: from restrictedfreedom on 1:42 am on May 30, 2003
in my opinion democracy is about disagreement. so naturally normal citizens are going to fight and probably ostracize one and another. i don't think this sort of thing is ever government sponsered though.

though i would admit that i wish the two party system would crack a bit, i guess those other parties just don't get majority support at the moment. this is why we have to spread our respective messages.

No it isn't just individual citizens ostracizing people it's the majority of national opinion at the moment that if you aren't with bush you are somehow some kind of anti-american terrorist.

Now I may be a socialsit but I'm not against the American Public

also what you call a two party system i call a two party dictatorship


where I live, different opinions on politics are pretty well accepted. where are you from?

[Anonymous]

Oh dear fucking christ! You where what....ostricized *gasp* for expressing an opinion contary to that of the majority? Well no shit! Just be glad you don't live in some little communist shithole where expressing an opinion contrary to the that of the "people" (government) will get you a 4:00 a.m wake up call and 20 years in a work camp.

[Millennium]

This thread is hilarious! Certainly the most fun I've had on this bulletin board. I'll show you why:

"What is the use of Democracy if you can't have an opinion. If you are ostracized for expressing your right to disagree. One girl told me that "they" would do the same to me as they did to Hitler because I disagreed with the delusion of racial homogenaity."

"...The problem is the fact that Americans are not willing to tolerate opposing points of view. It should also be pointed out that there is a problem between freedom of speech and freedom to simply disagree, and sheer intolerance. Especilay if that intolerance is in defense of a secular religion of racial nihilism."

The best thing of all, of course, is that every time I click on the Opposing Views link, I'm reminded that there is *No Nazi Trash* allowed here. "Well of course; we're just misunderstood because we're Leftists, but everybody knows that they're all evil, don't you understand?"

Don't worry. I understand perfectly. :)

Speaking more seriously, maybe it's true that intolerant people really are small minded or childish, but if that's so, then it's your job to be mature and accomodate to them. What I've learned to do is, rather than be disrespectful towards people who are closed minded, try to be sympathetic. Most of the Capitalists you are deriding are just as afraid of (or disgusted by) socialism and anti war attitudes as you are of my heretical eugenism. We all have our boxes, and admittedly some may be larger than others, but it's not easy for any of us to climb outside of them.

Sympathy and respect will win more ears than derision and angry words. Patience, and tolerance of the opposition's intolerance, will encourage patience and tolerance from the opposition. If you feel that you aren't being heard, don't shout or get angry, just repeat yourself. And if you come accross someone who will obviously not be able to treat you with any sort of respect, just avoid him.

Maybe you all will find this to be of some help; if not, then don't worry about it. But at least appreciate that everyone's opinions are frightening to somebody.

--Mark

[Pete]

How can you have non-State Fascism???

[Ghost Writer]

"Interesting how no cappy replied so far to such a provocative thread."

Provocative thread? This is the first time I have seen this "provocative thread". Rest assured, I will be back to discuss the merits of this "provocative thread". It is flawed in a number of ways, I will list them at a later date. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!

[Zombie]

Wouldn't it be provocative to you if someone told you you had no freedom of speech GW?

UR, Facism: "A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism."

That is just the basic definition.

[Millennium]

UR, Facism: "A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism."

That is just the basic definition.
That's interesting; you inspired me to look it up in my own dictionary , The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language which defines fascism as A philosophy or system of government that advocates or exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with an ideology of belligerent nationalism.

Honestly I think this definition is far better, and here's why:

1. It defines fascism as politically far right, and
2. It mentions the merging of business and government, which is central to fascism.

The definition which you provided is applicable to totalitarian Communist states; the definition I found in this dictionary can't be confused with totalitarian Communism.

--Mark

[Xvall]

Millenium:

Sorry, I don't think I'm every going to be sympathetic to fascists in the least bit. As a matter of fact, given the opportunity to do so; I would most likely kill many fascists willingly. I know that's probably not the most 'humane' route to take. Anyways. On to the post.

The best thing of all, of course, is that every time I click on the Opposing Views link, I'm reminded that there is *No Nazi Trash* allowed here. "Well of course; we're just misunderstood because we're Leftists, but everybody knows that they're all evil, don't you understand?"

Yes. No Nazi Trash is allowed here. You must keep in mind that this is a message board, not a country. This message board was designed to be for people who admire Che Guevara. I have no clue what you, or any of the people who dwell in this section of the board, are doing in the first place. This is just a message board. You should be able to understand this. Why doesn't the message board at foodtv.com allow nazis to run around and spout dumb garbage about their race war that's been on hold for hundreds of years? Because that is not what the purpose of the board is. If we claimed that this board was a country, or a micronation; then you may have a case against us in that we talk about the freedom of speech but do not follow it. But so long as this place is an International Forum for Che Admirers and not an International Forum for Conservatives and Nazis to ***** about liberals; you don't have much of a case.

Speaking more seriously, maybe it's true that intolerant people really are small minded or childish, but if that's so, then it's your job to be mature and accomodate to them. What I've learned to do is, rather than be disrespectful towards people who are closed minded, try to be sympathetic.

I can kinda agree with some of what you are saying there. Usually, I think it's better to try to persuade these people to be better, rather than just hating all of them. However, I'm sure you've run into some of those types of people who just won't budge. From personal experience, this happens a lot. I usually never debate with an idiot. They will simply bring you down to their level, and then beat you with their experience.

Most of the Capitalists you are deriding are just as afraid of (or disgusted by) socialism and anti war attitudes as you are of my heretical eugenism.

I'm not so sure about that.

We all have our boxes, and admittedly some may be larger than others, but it's not easy for any of us to climb outside of them.

Yes. I can agree with that.

Well; I guess that's all I'll adress. In conclusion, seeing as you don't appear to be any type of nazi, but just a 'racialist'; I don't agree with you on that, I doubt that I ever will. But I guess I can agree with the whole 'tolerating people's opinions'. Just sometimes... one may find doing so to be extremely difficult!

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Quote: from Dark Capitalist on 3:44 am on May 31, 2003
Oh dear fucking christ! You where what....ostricized *gasp* for expressing an opinion contary to that of the majority? Well no shit! Just be glad you don't live in some little communist shithole where expressing an opinion contrary to the that of the "people" (government) will get you a 4:00 a.m wake up call and 20 years in a work camp.

DC, I am not going to try to teach about what communism actualy is, but you do seem to be missing our point about the lack of freedom of speech. You see, freedom is when you are allowed to do something without being restricted. Would a consequence to your action be a restriction, why yes, it would be. But isn't our freedom to react to peoples' actions just as important as our freedom to carry out such an action? Yes, but you see, we are not out to restrict people from reacting to others' actions. We are simply criticizing the fact that it is a problem that people are intolerant of others' actions. And that intolerance is restrictive. Because laws are not enough to secure the peoples' freedom of expression, tolerance among members of society is as important.

[El Che]

Intellectual and political intolerance is regrettable.

Will anyone, Capitalist or not, care to challenge that?

Is "America" becoming an increasingly intolerant country? From what I hear, it is. And that is a shame isn`t it? People like DC might not think so, seeing as how they are happy to be on the flag waving ultra reactionary band wagon, but I don`t see how they can intellectualy justify their intolerant atitudes. It`s not something to try to justify or rationalize, it`s something you just do.

It is a Democratic deficit. Not an institutional one, not a legal one but a social one. Admittedly the lesser of the three but a problem nonetheless. One that all "Americans" should be seriously concerned with if they truely care about their country.

[Millennium]

It is a Democratic deficit.
It is about 40% genetic.

--Mark

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

"...The problem is the fact that Americans are not willing to tolerate opposing points of view. It should also be pointed out that there is a problem between freedom of speech and freedom to simply disagree, and sheer intolerance. Especilay if that intolerance is in defense of a secular religion of racial nihilism."

Why the hell are you missquoting me!? What was the point of changing "...jingoistic president." to "...secular religion of racial nihilism."?


(Edited by Victorcommie at 10:01 pm on June 2, 2003)

[Xvall]

It is about 40% genetic.

Everything is genetic to you, isn't it? I am not meaning this in a sarcastic way; I seriously want to know. I don't think intolerance is caused by genetics. It is caused by stupidity. I will never let anyone use 'genetics' as an excuse for their intolerance.

[Xvall]

(Double Post)

(Edited by Drake Dracoli at 6:41 pm on June 1, 2003)