Referenda

[革命者]

should western «democracies» instate(or keep) referenda-- ppl voting yes or no to a proposal??

i think not.

what do you think?

[James]

could you be more precise?

If you are on about if the UK should have a referendum on the EU constitution; then yes, as we should have for all those treaties.

But then again, we elect representatives, referendums undermine the whole point of our system. But did we have a choice of electing someone who would actually represent us?

[Pete]

If revolution is to come peacefully this, along with an extreme decentralization of power, would be needed.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from James on 10:01 pm on May 27, 2003
could you be more precise?

If you are on about if the UK should have a referendum on the EU constitution; then yes, as we should have for all those treaties.

But then again, we elect representatives, referendums undermine the whole point of our system. But did we have a choice of electing someone who would actually represent us?


Thats true there are few polititians i would want to appoint to the government. We need decent representatives, not those slimy bastards in government.

But then again i also think we should have preportional representation, how would the people choose who becomes a minister using that system?

The British political system is screwed up.

[Som]

I don't think it matters all that much, nice little tricks.

Would be nice if it was something purely citizen initiated and controlled though, some states have it like that. If you get a certain number of signatures on a petition, a state-wide referendum can be called and voted on, going around the supposed representatives completely.

Though, if its government initiated, its rarely of any actual meaning, as i think they'd only put out ones that they either expect to get the response they want to it, or something that would hurt their political careers to take an opinion on.

[James]

CrazyPete;
(i'm talking about the UK here as i don't know the situation else where)

If revolution is to come peacefully this, along with an extreme decentralization of power, would be needed.

hmm, i disagree. In the UK the referendum can only be held over matters of extreme constitutional importance. The government thus controls the topic, the wording and the timing. Plus the government doesn't have to act on decisions (for example in 1979 Scotland voted yes for devolution; but PM Callaghan said it wasn't a big enough turnout).

The government will never shoot its self in the foot in such a manor.

Plus, the media influences the result. The media is essentially controlled by the capitalists (30% by Murdoch alone i believe). The media would make sure the result would be a right wing one.

[James]

there are few polititians i would want to appoint to the government. We need decent representatives, not those slimy bastards in government.

Yes, but remember its not just you in your constituency. Although this is a problem, the party essentially controls who stands in each area.
Thus you can choose from A, B, C or a minority party who have no chance of getting into power.
But do A,B or C differ?
I think not...

But then if you don't vote, you can't speak out against the system as you had your chance. The best thing to do is to either
A) Tactical voting; and keep an awful party out.
B) vote for a minority - this probably won't result in you being represented; BUT, you can at least speak out.
C) destroy your vote; thus registering your vote of disgust. However, this doesn't tell us if you are right or left wing. So its best to destroy your vote by voting for a minority.

Do not ever simply not bother to vote, as the government can claim that its because you are content.

But then again i also think we should have preportional representation,

There are pro's and cons to proportional representation.
- IT does not cause wasted votes, as each vote does count.
- there are fewer "safe" seats
- the gov represents a majority and not a minority
- it produces a more representative group of MPs

BUT...
- the link between constituent and MP can be lost
- can lead to coalition governments in which nothing much is done or passed
- parties can make secret pacts between each other
- coalitions can be held up by a minority

how would the people choose who becomes a minister using that system?

I don't understand... The people don't choose who becomes a minister. Thats a job of the government.
Did you meant MP?

The British political system is screwed up.

Yes but some people like it... :S

[James]

my opinion has changed due to all this hype in the UK, by pritty much everyone, that we "need" a referendum. I'm now anti referendum.

[革命者]

Quote: from James on 11:22 am on June 4, 2003
my opinion has changed due to all this hype in the UK, by pritty much everyone, that we "need" a referendum. I'm now anti referendum. join the club.

[James]

Reading my post i realised a gave the impression that i'm anti due to the hype.

I'm anti because of the negatives of a referendum.
So can i be a gold member or something?

[Anonymous]

But are you anti-referendum globally or just anti-referendum UK?

Personally i think they are quite usefull in exceptional circumstances : Devolution of Scotland

[James]

The government wanted to do that though didn't they;
I suppose i can see the pro's when you look at it like an opinion poll, to get some soundings, before going ahead.

As you know, devolution got a "yes" in '79 but Callaghan said fuck it.

Globally or nationally... hmm, i'm not sure.

[革命者]

Quote: from James on 5:33 pm on June 4, 2003
Reading my post i realised a gave the impression that i'm anti due to the hype.

I'm anti because of the negatives of a referendum.
So can i be a gold member or something?
you may.

[Anonymous]

With all due respect James, i think you have the political brain of a mollusc.


Callaghan used a low voter turnout to suggest that the feeling on the matter was closer to apathy than support and there wasnt a positive enough response tojustify such a radical constitutional change.
I believ if a large voter turnout would have returned a large yes verdict he would have introduced devolution in 79.

Devolutions can only be considered informative if they produce a large turnout.

[James]

Well i think you have the political brain of some road kill!
lol

Those are valid points though.

[Anonymous]

You think i care what some fat American kid like you thinks of me?

[RAM]

Quote: from AK47 on 3:43 pm on May 28, 2003

Quote: from James on 10:01 pm on May 27, 2003
could you be more precise?

If you are on about if the UK should have a referendum on the EU constitution; then yes, as we should have for all those treaties.

But then again, we elect representatives, referendums undermine the whole point of our system. But did we have a choice of electing someone who would actually represent us?


Thats true there are few polititians i would want to appoint to the government. We need decent representatives, not those slimy bastards in government.

But then again i also think we should have preportional representation, how would the people choose who becomes a minister using that system?

The British political system is screwed up.


But there are problems with PR though...

[James]

well at least i'm not a prominent member of the Countryside Alliance/Conservative/BNP triple alliance.

[James]

gooo on

[Anonymous]

You'll be laighing on the other side of your face when the triple alliance is elected! Bring back Maggie, thats what i say.

How are your KKK buddies doing? Lynched anyone recently? You and your facist referenda hating sheet-heads

But RAM is right PR can have some major drawbacks which vary from system to system. I personally like the comprimise displayed in Scotland though.

[James]

My KKK are under going training. So that we are more acceptable to a wider and broader target audience.

PR?
Bah!
You would say that

[Anonymous]

You got a problem with PR? You want to advocate a personality contest to elect senators and a President?!?!?!

[James]

I just don't see the point

you are perfectly able to lead this country to the light. We shall be great again under you!
The map shall be pink again!

you are our natural leader, whats the point in trying to prevent destiny?

[Anonymous]

You've just fucking lost me now trailer trash.

Shouldnt you curl up with a bottle of JD and shoot some birds?


Lets face it, a mixture of FPTP and PR is practical, has proved succesfuly and shouldnt be too hard to convert to.

[James]

whats the point?

Less of a problem if you just take charge. You know so much about politics.

[Anonymous]

Its always so fucking black and white for you bastard isnt it? Just take charge, do what you want and fuck the rest?!?!?!


I hope you rot in hell with the rest of your Texan cronies!