not voting and collective guilt

[534634634265]

while many people crowd into voting booths around the country picking their red or blue leader, some decide against this choice. their vote is neither democratic nor republican. it is a vote of NO. No to the illusory freedom of voting. No to the fallacy that elections create "real" change. for whatever reason, people across the nation decide that no vote is the best vote they can make.

one of the dogmatic reactions of those who buy into voting is to lay blame for any failures at the feet of the nonparticipants. For every person that doesn't vote, a democrat sees a republican victory and visa versa. when an election doesn't go the way joe toolbox wants, he blames those who didn't vote, as if their not voting tipped the scales in ANY direction.

society is trained to blame those who don't want to play by the rules. they lay blame for societal ills at the feet of those who society fails most. if you don't want to work then you're lazy and a burden to the system. if you don't vote you're helping the bad guys, whoever they are. if you don't pay taxes then you're contributing to the failure of the health-care system, and the schools, and the state. if you commit any of a variety of minor crimes then you're a bed person deserving a lifetime of imprisonment.

there is a form of cultural guilt that enables this blaming the victim. we should all feel bad that huge corporations have raped the environment, so lets recycle and buy "green" and "organic". we should all feel bad for the wild species those corporations displace and destroy, so should we put them in zoos and terrariums instead of stopping the destruction of their homes. we should feel bad for huge banks that predated upon the lower classes before collapsing, so we should keep them afloat and let them continue to feed.

one day we'll all stand together and laugh at what we were, that's my hope for change.

[Robert]

Cracked, what is to prevent you from going to the polls and a) voting for an alternative party; or b) writing in the candidate of your choice? Every precinct in the USA has provisions for this. You typically take your registration card, turn it over, and write down the name. They'll even give you a pencil. And your vote will count.

If an eligible voter is not committed enough to get off his ass and declare what he wants with his ballot, his wishes are deservedly ignored by everyone else.

I agree with you about zoological parks, but it's the best we can do going forward. If we let them all loose, then redneck assholes (you know, the wage slaves) will shoot every one of them. Just for fun.

[danyboy27]

we can whine how futile political party are, yet they rule everything.

by not voting you givre them more power over you. When you vote for someone, and that guy fuck up, you got the right to send him a letter or to gather a ground around his office for the shit he did.

if you dont vote...well, you dont have any right to complaina bout the current politics.

[534634634265]

you got the right to send him a letter or to gather a ground around his office for the shit he did.

if you dont vote...well, you dont have any right to complaina bout the current politics.

and what change will sending that letter make?
i have EVERY right to complain about the current politics!
i can complain because they aren't MY politics. they aren't MY ideals, and I dont care to be associated with them.
you've got some balls to say what my rights are and aren't.:cursing:

[Robert]

you've got some balls to say what my rights are and aren't

Oh, you've got all the rights in the world. Are you going to exercise them, abuse them, waive them, or forfeit them?

[534634634265]

i'll exercise them as us prudent, abuse them when necessary, and never waive or forfeit any of them.:D

[mykittyhasaboner]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efKguI0NFek&feature=related

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

While Carlin is always witty, and quite amusing, I disagree.

Sitting on your ass is never a solution.


Cracked, what is to prevent you from going to the polls and a) voting for an alternative party; or b) writing in the candidate of your choice? Every precinct in the USA has provisions for this. You typically take your registration card, turn it over, and write down the name. They'll even give you a pencil. And your vote will count.

Precisely.



one day we'll all stand together and laugh at what we were, that's my hope for change.


If you were a bit older, you'd have stomach pains from the laughs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW1i-R39AAk

[redguard2009]

What people like you fail to realize is that not voting is not sitting on your ass.

This idiotic notion that rejecting bourgeois politics amounts to inaction is stupid. When workers strike, are they just sitting on their ass not working? NO! Now just because there is no single widespread election boycotting movement does not severely differentiate striking workers from "striking voters"; for the most part, the reasons for both are the same -- dissatisfaction with the way things are and an unwillingness to endure them any longer.

The first step is the realization that the status quo is meaningless; then comes the realization that change is necessary; and finally comes the push for change itself.

[Dean]

If you were a bit older, you'd have stomach pains from the laughs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW1i-R39AAk

Right, and somehow people are better now than then? We have an entire strata of people who wouldn't vote before, only vote because a corporatist mass-murderer wears blackface.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

What people like you fail to realize is that not voting is not sitting on your ass.

What people like you fail to realize is we've had a century of progress (an entire gender couldn't vote, or even file for divorce not that long ago), and that your methods accomplish jack-shit, especially for the workers you want to stand up for.


This idiotic notion that rejecting bourgeois politics amounts to inaction is stupid. When workers strike, are they just sitting on their ass not working? NO! Now just because there is no single widespread election boycotting movement does not severely differentiate striking workers from "striking voters"; for the most part, the reasons for both are the same -- dissatisfaction with the way things are and an unwillingness to endure them any longer.

No, this whole striking voters thing is a load of shit. When workers strike, they shut down the means of production until a better compromise is reached. When voters strike, nobody gives a rats ass. In fact, most people are probably glad you didn't vote because that makes theirs worth more.

Also, your calling striking workers anti-government revolutionaries is ridiculous. They were in the 19th century, but thanks to Workers voting we now have things like workers compensation, a 40-hour work week, a ban on child labor, a minimum wage, laws that ban employers from firing people based on race, and the legal ability to strike.

Meanwhile, the armchair revolutionaries gave us......jack shit. Thank God workers vote Democrat.


The first step is the realization that the status quo is meaningless; then comes the realization that change is necessary; and finally comes the push for change itself.

Or, you know, they could just vote for that.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Right, and somehow people are better now than then? We have an entire strata of people who wouldn't vote before, only vote because a corporatist mass-murderer wears blackface.

Are you now accusing black people of supporting a black man simply because he is black?

Secondly, yes, we are a better society because obviously black people can vote, let alone run for the highest office, without fear of being mauled by a German Shephard. Even if you don't think that's progress, I think every rational person will disagree.

[Killfacer]

Are you now accusing black people of supporting a black man simply because he is black?



Seems like a fair analysis.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Seems like a fair analysis.

You're a racist LoL.

Seriously, I hate how nobody says this even though it's true. It's perfectly OK for a black man to say a dream come true, but in 4 years, if the GOP wins, it'll be considered disgusting if a white man cries and thanks god almighty he lived to see the day when another white man becomes President.

Color Politics are only Ok if you're Colored...

[Dean]

You're a racist.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

So if I said that white people who voted against him did it due to racial prejudice, what would you say?

It's quite simple. Obama utilized his race and youthful appearance to appear to demographics that felt neglected by the political world. Specifically, black people and young people. This manipulative, racist, ageist, cynical outlook is fundamentally in line - totally - with the history of U.S. politics.

I honestly could give two shits about what fucker they put in the white house. He will still enact racist terror across the globe, centralize economic control and benefit, and prop up a racist police state. Fuck Obama, thoroughly.

As for the history, it is evident that we are worthless now in comparison. In the past, we had people risking their lives and standing up to the police state. Now, the most revolutionary act is to vote for some reactionary scumbag who promises to kill the Afghans and Pakistanis. So, no, I don't have anything but animosity for the entire movement that brought about this election. I shit on them, and I pray that those militants against Obama succeed in their goals.

[redguard2009]

Also, your calling striking workers anti-government revolutionaries is ridiculous. They were in the 19th century, but thanks to Workers voting we now have things like workers compensation, a 40-hour work week, a ban on child labor, a minimum wage, laws that ban employers from firing people based on race, and the legal ability to strike.

Workers compensation -- which after 150 years is still not universal and which across all employment sectors is either being prevented from keeping up with rising living costs or is actually decreasing;
Minimum wage -- which itself is being prevented from keepnig up with inflation;
Laws against firing based on race -- but nothing about hiring based on race;
legal ability to strike -- under the auspices of beauraucratic unions; corporations today are able to weather striking workers far longer than striking workers are able to weather going without pay, not to mention that working activism has been slowly eroding over the past decades with less people willing or able to risk their jobs (also not to mention the high number of workplaces, factories and the like which employers shut down in response to a strike in order to out-source manufacturing jobs elsewhere to worker populations which are not afforded out "electoral rights");

Then of course there is the basic fact that the standards of living in the US have been eroding for the past 20 years; workers are working more and being paid less, have less benefits, lower raises and less income, whereas owners have seen dramatic increases in profitability. Poverty levels are rising and continue to affect millions in America, while the income gap has increased immensely. The crime rate is enormous and America has one of the highest jail rates in the world. Despite the change of hands between "Republican" and "Democrat" the US war machine continues to this day to kill millions worldwide; from Vietnam to Cambodia, Panama Canal to Iraq (twice), American foreign policy is by far the most dangerous and consistent aspect of America which has gone completely unchanged.

So besides the handful of crumbs you've managed to collect, like increases in wages (which have not been keeping up with rising living costs), worker's benefits (which are by and large pathetic) and the complete lack of any social security or healthcare system, what has changed?

Fortunately, you've got nothing but blind faith backing up your expectations for Obama's administration -- I've got 150 years of solid, consistent capitalist history lighting my views of this "future". Each and every one of you idiot pro-election types are harking back on progress made 70 years ago during the hayday of working activism which you try and apply to each and every election which has occured ever since. And in 4 years, when Obama's tenure has failed to reap any benefits for you, you'll pick up the mantle of another promiser of change and yet again rally around thoughts of progress which are long dead, and I'll be there to say "I told you so".

[Bud Struggle]

I've got 150 years of solid, consistent capitalist history lighting my views of this "future".

It's lines like these that keep me comming back to RevLeft! :lol:

Also, Abe--Consistantly, you are one of the most intelligent posters here. Really good stuff.

[JimmyJazz]

You're a racist LoL.

Seriously, I hate how nobody says this even though it's true. It's perfectly OK for a black man to say a dream come true, but in 4 years, if the GOP wins, it'll be considered disgusting if a white man cries and thanks god almighty he lived to see the day when another white man becomes President.

Color Politics are only Ok if you're Colored...

Wow, this is even more idiotic than joining the Navy, which is difficult.

[Killfacer]

You're a racist LoL.

Seriously, I hate how nobody says this even though it's true. It's perfectly OK for a black man to say a dream come true, but in 4 years, if the GOP wins, it'll be considered disgusting if a white man cries and thanks god almighty he lived to see the day when another white man becomes President.

Color Politics are only Ok if you're Colored...


You some kind of fucking idiot? No i am not racist, but the impression i got was that black people blindly voted for him because he was black. Don't be such a fucking moron, alot of black people probably did vote for him because hes black. Alot of white people probably voted against him because hes black. Not every one votes for a particuarly person because they like their economic policies, most vote for innane or just plain stupid reasons like creed and skin colour.

[Die Neue Zeit]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/anarchists-burn-ballots-t93872/index.html


Anarchists burn ballots in protest :D

In brief

by Paul Frazier | Freelance Reporter |

While millions of Americans were casting their ballots in polls across the United States on Tuesday, a group of five self-proclaimed anarchists burned theirs in front of the U.S. Post Office on 5th Avenue and Willamette Street in downtown Eugene.

The group was protesting the act of voting in the United States, saying that voting does not give people real power to make a difference. Each person had a unique perspective on what should replace the current system in the United States and the world. However, they shared the belief that in addition to voting, the current systems of government and states is fundamentally flawed.

They huddled together around a portable barbecue as they lit ballots on fire. As the ballots burned, many of them said the ballots were highly effective in warming their hands.

"The best use of my ballot was for kindling," activist Ian Roger said.

When the ballots finished burning, they were careful to not spill any ash onto the sidewalk. Then they unfurled a sign that said, "Whoever they vote for we are ungovernable." As they walked down Willamette Street to the federal courthouse displaying the sign, a woman stopped them and asked if they knew where a ballot drop box was.

They laughed and collectively pointed at the barbecue.

http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper859/stills/hhp2218v.jpg

[email protected]

http://media.www.dailyemerald.com/media/storage/paper859/news/2008/11/06/News/Anarchists.Burn.Ballots.In.Protest-3528762.shtml

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

You some kind of fucking idiot? No i am not racist, but the impression i got was that black people blindly voted for him because he was black. Don't be such a fucking moron, alot of black people probably did vote for him because hes black. Alot of white people probably voted against him because hes black. Not every one votes for a particuarly person because they like their economic policies, most vote for innane or just plain stupid reasons like creed and skin colour.

You some kind of fucking idiot? A and lot are two seperate words.

Just kidding dude, I'm not trying to start a confrontation, I'm agreeing with you. I typed "LoL" to indicate I was joking. I'll stop, that abbreviation is lame. If you said such a thing on American news television, however, you'd immediately be demed a racist. I absolutely believe that many black people came out and voted him based on race. If class had been the issue, Dennis Kucinich could have easily relied on much of the African-American vote (and hispanic, and white, for that matter) during the primaries. But as the case so often is, race became the bigger issue for a lot of people, many of them white. Had it not been for the economic crisis though, I believe many more people would have supported John McCain for the bullshit reasons you indicated.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

So if I said that white people who voted against him did it due to racial prejudice, what would you say?

That I know several white peers who voted against him because he's a nigger. Their words, not mine.


It's quite simple. Obama utilized his race and youthful appearance to appear to demographics that felt neglected by the political world. Specifically, black people and young people. This manipulative, racist, ageist, cynical outlook is fundamentally in line - totally - with the history of U.S. politics.

Umm....what? Black people may have helped him in Virginia, but could they have given him Colorado? New Mexico? Ohio?

Secondly, your whole point is what? That people who felt neglected by the power structure rose up to change it in the most practical way possible?


I honestly could give two shits about what fucker they put in the white house. He will still enact racist terror across the globe, centralize economic control and benefit, and prop up a racist police state. Fuck Obama, thoroughly.

a.) what makes terror racist? b.) Good, we need a centralized system to benefit ourselves most c.) Yes, it sucks that pot isn't legal d.) Is it Obama's youthful appearance that makes you want to fuck him thoroughly?


As for the history, it is evident that we are worthless now in comparison. In the past, we had people risking their lives and standing up to the police state. Now, the most revolutionary act is to vote for some reactionary scumbag who promises to kill the Afghans and Pakistanis. So, no, I don't have anything but animosity for the entire movement that brought about this election. I shit on them, and I pray that those militants against Obama succeed in their goals.

Yes, let's shit on the racist police state.

Fuck You Police! And Fuck Obama! Come and get me fuckers!

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Workers compensation -- which after 150 years is still not universal and which across all employment sectors is either being prevented from keeping up with rising living costs or is actually decreasing;

It should be cut if demand for workers is high. Obviously, I agree that it's increased with unemployment.


Minimum wage -- which itself is being prevented from keepnig up with inflation;

Because it may have detrimental effects.


Laws against firing based on race -- but nothing about hiring based on race;

Affirmative Action?



legal ability to strike -- under the auspices of beauraucratic unions; corporations today are able to weather striking workers far longer than striking workers are able to weather going without pay, not to mention that working activism has been slowly eroding over the past decades with less people willing or able to risk their jobs (also not to mention the high number of workplaces, factories and the like which employers shut down in response to a strike in order to out-source manufacturing jobs elsewhere to worker populations which are not afforded out "electoral rights");

Then of course there is the basic fact that the standards of living in the US have been eroding for the past 20 years; workers are working more and being paid less, have less benefits, lower raises and less income, whereas owners have seen dramatic increases in profitability.

hey, we should like, get rid of all those shit manufacturing jobs and have chinese compete against robotics to make us a cheaper product. Meanwhile, we should give all those people subsidies to learn a trade or go to college to benefit us more than mopping floors for $15/hour at a bankrupt GM plant.


Poverty levels are rising and continue to affect millions in America, while the income gap has increased immensely. The crime rate is enormous and America has one of the highest jail rates in the world. Despite the change of hands between "Republican" and "Democrat" the US war machine continues to this day to kill millions worldwide; from Vietnam to Cambodia, Panama Canal to Iraq (twice), American foreign policy is by far the most dangerous and consistent aspect of America which has gone completely unchanged.

Aside from LBJ (who was an evil old hack), all the wars you indicated were launched by republicans. Just sayin.

Secondly, anti-interventionism is something I've never understood about leftists. They say that if the state is powerful enough, it should intervene in the economy to create a better system. Why not throughout the world? If the West can provide for all it's citizens and stop aggression in the third world (using superior aggression), what is the moral justification for not doing so?


So besides the handful of crumbs you've managed to collect, like increases in wages (which have not been keeping up with rising living costs), worker's benefits (which are by and large pathetic) and the complete lack of any social security or healthcare system, what has changed?

Crumbs i've managed to collect? I have at least a slice, hopefully one day I'll have a loaf.

I voted for Obama, partially, for the healthcare and better social safety net, btw. Along with education and infrastructure improvements.


Fortunately, you've got nothing but blind faith backing up your expectations for Obama's administration

I don't have blind faith. I have hope.

He can fail. I know. I'm worried. But I got ammo if worse come to worse and revolution happens. That doesn't mean I want it, though.


-- I've got 150 years of solid, consistent capitalist history lighting my views of this "future".

Please stop. Think about what life would have entailed 150 years ago, and start again.


Each and every one of you idiot pro-election types are harking back on progress made 70 years ago during the hayday of working activism which you try and apply to each and every election which has occured ever since

What the fuck are you talking about? Very little was accomplished during the 'heyday' when the Socialist Party was popular, for example. Strikes were largely illegal, the government killed dozens of workers, and yet all of the 'revolutionary' bullshit accomplished nothing. Sure, i enjoyed reading Jack London writing about socialists trying to take over the USA when I was a kid, but it still failed. What you mean is the gains made under a Democratic President elected during a time of economic strain with a mandate for change has given us a situation in which revolution hasn't been preferable to at last some continuation of the status-quo.


And in 4 years, when Obama's tenure has failed to reap any benefits for you, you'll pick up the mantle of another promiser of change and yet again rally around thoughts of progress which are long dead, and I'll be there to say "I told you so".

I'm sure you'll still be on here and can tell me so. But my action of voting is still a more positive move than waiting around for revolution. Why not at least try and use the ship to get somewhere before it sinks?

[Dean]

That I know several white peers who voted against him because he's a nigger. Their words, not mine.
Good. Whatever we can do to fight this monster.




Umm....what? Black people may have helped him in Virginia, but could they have given him Colorado? New Mexico? Ohio?
I never said that it was only black people that were duped, or even that his race was the only (or primary!) factor.


Secondly, your whole point is what? That people who felt neglected by the power structure rose up to change it in the most practical way possible?
No, that is your point. My point is that these same people are ignorant because they are voting for someone who supports direct, xenophobic violence against at-risk populations. They voted for an asshole who admittedly and clearly wants more corporate welfare and more centralized control. They didn't rise up. They went to a government sanctioned polling station on a government sanctioned day and voted for one of the two government sanctioned candidates which they were told were acceptable choices. They may feel neglected, they may even view this as a positive or radical change. But it is not. It is a shame that an international terrorist is getting such support by so-called liberals, and all his crimes are vindicated by a vague notion for "change" which is in direct contradiction to the U.S. people's notion of change and the interests of the U.S. people.


a.) what makes terror racist? b.) Good, we need a centralized system to benefit ourselves most c.) Yes, it sucks that pot isn't legal d.) Is it Obama's youthful appearance that makes you want to fuck him thoroughly?
a)the xenophobic nature of the anti-arab terror is clear.
b) That's why every year our benefits get worse, we work just as hard, and inflation goes up. Yes, centralized economic destribution has done wonders.
c)big deal, that isn't a big issue here
d)No, it is his violent, anti-worker policies.


He is a totally dangerous leader who should be given no praise. It is truly fascinating that of all his supporters I've spoken to, only one gave me a reason for voting for him that related to his policies.

[danyboy27]

so much people here judge a man who actually didnt do anything yet, that amazing!

Personally i will wait before to pose any judgement, see how things going.

chances are that Obama actually told many bullshit just to attrack a lot of former pissed conservatives.

i mean, conservatives loves shit like: we gonna go in pakistan! they really love that kind of shit, and if Obama would have spoken against the military in times like this he would have lost.

dont trust what he said, trust what he will do.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Good. Whatever we can do to fight this monster.

Ummm, what?



No, that is your point. My point is that these same people are ignorant because they are voting for someone who supports direct, xenophobic violence against at-risk populations. They voted for an asshole who admittedly and clearly wants more corporate welfare and more centralized control. They didn't rise up. They went to a government sanctioned polling station on a government sanctioned day and voted for one of the two government sanctioned candidates which they were told were acceptable choices. They may feel neglected, they may even view this as a positive or radical change. But it is not. It is a shame that an international terrorist is getting such support by so-called liberals, and all his crimes are vindicated by a vague notion for "change" which is in direct contradiction to the U.S. people's notion of change and the interests of the U.S. people.


First, well, duh, The American public is, all around, extremely ignorant towards the world. Convince enough of them to support a more progressive cause and I'll support it.

Second, what has this "international terrorist" done? What crimes is he guilty of?

Third, why are you aginst centralized control? You sound like a libertarian.

Finally, what interests of the US people are you refering to? Getting out of Iraq (done)? Not starting a war with Iran? Killing terrorists in Afghanistan?


a)the xenophobic nature of the anti-arab terror is clear.

Not nearly as clear as the xenophobic nature which the arab-launched attacks have had.



b) That's why every year our benefits get worse, we work just as hard, and inflation goes up. Yes, centralized economic destribution has done wonders.


Dude you sound like the Ron Paul people. And I agree to a certain extent. What would you replace the fed with?


d)No, it is his violent, anti-worker policies

What are these? The AFL-CIO doesn't seem to agree with you.


He is a totally dangerous leader who should be given no praise.

You shouldn't start until he actually fails.

[534634634265]

What are these? The AFL-CIO doesn't seem to agree with you.


yeah, cuz the AFLCIO as it exists now certainly does a lot for its members.:rolleyes: they...wait...when was the last time the AFLCIO struck or made a worker-motivated action that ended in the demands of the workers being met?

[Anti Freedom]

I am not going to respond to the current argument on Obama so much, I will just say 3 words:

"median voter theorem"

and let that tell those knowledgeable enough what I think about the changes Obama will bring.

In any case, not voting does nothing. Burning your ballot is a better use for it than using it to vote. I mean, we can say "oh, voting does all of these amazing things if large numbers of people do it", but the issue is that an individual is never a large number of people, in fact, we can mathematically that 1 != n in cases where n >> 1, such as this case. Because of that, the individual's vote means nothing. Let's just look at it:

1) Voting is winner take-all, so your vote, in order to matter, must be the vote that pushes the overall number of votes for a candidate above that of the rival candidate. Thus meaning, that your vote only matters in a contest so close that 1 vote *really* makes the difference(this occasion being so improbable that it is ridiculous, one person argued that if a state was leaning against your candidate by as little as 51%, the odds of you making a difference were less than winning the lotto multiple times).

2) Voting is subject to corruption and political games. Your vote also stands the chance of being lost/destroyed/whatever, and you have no control over that. Not only that, but let's just say that the election actually *does* come down to one vote, in such a case the real deciding factor would then actually be who can uncover cheating and politick better.

So no, voting really doesn't matter, particularly if you want to make fundamental change. Fundamental change doesn't come from the top, it comes from the bottom, and the bottom is changed through efforts to educate, not from large governmental programs.

[PostAnarchy]

while many people crowd into voting booths around the country picking their red or blue leader, some decide against this choice. their vote is neither democratic nor republican. it is a vote of NO. No to the illusory freedom of voting. No to the fallacy that elections create "real" change. for whatever reason, people across the nation decide that no vote is the best vote they can make.

one of the dogmatic reactions of those who buy into voting is to lay blame for any failures at the feet of the nonparticipants. For every person that doesn't vote, a democrat sees a republican victory and visa versa. when an election doesn't go the way joe toolbox wants, he blames those who didn't vote, as if their not voting tipped the scales in ANY direction.

society is trained to blame those who don't want to play by the rules. they lay blame for societal ills at the feet of those who society fails most. if you don't want to work then you're lazy and a burden to the system. if you don't vote you're helping the bad guys, whoever they are. if you don't pay taxes then you're contributing to the failure of the health-care system, and the schools, and the state. if you commit any of a variety of minor crimes then you're a bed person deserving a lifetime of imprisonment.

there is a form of cultural guilt that enables this blaming the victim. we should all feel bad that huge corporations have raped the environment, so lets recycle and buy "green" and "organic". we should all feel bad for the wild species those corporations displace and destroy, so should we put them in zoos and terrariums instead of stopping the destruction of their homes. we should feel bad for huge banks that predated upon the lower classes before collapsing, so we should keep them afloat and let them continue to feed.

one day we'll all stand together and laugh at what we were, that's my hope for change.

I think voting is an absolute waste of time. I think all it does is help foster illusions that states can do something truly beneficial on behalf of workers. It helps foster illusions in capitalism and bourgeois democracy; no matter how certain left groups may protest if you tell workers to vote for a "protest" candidate or even worse, a bourgeois candidate you are helping to foster said illusions.

The real change we want will not occur from bourgeois elections but from the revolution of the working class.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

yeah, cuz the AFLCIO as it exists now certainly does a lot for its members.:rolleyes: they...wait...when was the last time the AFLCIO struck or made a worker-motivated action that ended in the demands of the workers being met?

Is there another leftist organization doing anything more?

I haven't seen it.

[Dean]

Ummm, what?



First, well, duh, The American public is, all around, extremely ignorant towards the world. Convince enough of them to support a more progressive cause and I'll support it.

Second, what has this "international terrorist" done? What crimes is he guilty of?

Third, why are you aginst centralized control? You sound like a libertarian.

Finally, what interests of the US people are you refering to? Getting out of Iraq (done)? Not starting a war with Iran? Killing terrorists in Afghanistan?
It is against the interests of the U.S. people to be at constant war with other peoples. Whatever they are duped into thinking / supporting is irrelevant to this fact. Funny, however, that you try to call the U.S. people "ignorant" while at the same time attempting to justify the policies of somebody in line with that "ignorance."




Not nearly as clear as the xenophobic nature which the arab-launched attacks have had.
"Arab Launched"?!

Where did I even say "white launched"? You are a racist piece of shit, there was really no need to bring race into the equation.




Dude you sound like the Ron Paul people. And I agree to a certain extent. What would you replace the fed with?
I would totally destroy the centralized corporate and state structures. How this is in line with the AnarchoCapitalists is beyond me.




What are these? The AFL-CIO doesn't seem to agree with you.
Fuck the AFL-CIO. I have dealt with that ridiculous organization a lot in my life, and I can say not onyl that they speak for no workers, but that their expenses are directly opposed to the interests of workers. On top of that, the workers have boldly proclaimed that they do not want to be in the AFL-CIO because it is so warm to corporate interests. That is why the Change to Win has garnered so much support.

[Ele'ill]

while many people crowd into voting booths around the country picking their red or blue leader, some decide against this choice. their vote is neither democratic nor republican. it is a vote of NO. No to the illusory freedom of voting. No to the fallacy that elections create "real" change. for whatever reason, people across the nation decide that no vote is the best vote they can make.

one of the dogmatic reactions of those who buy into voting is to lay blame for any failures at the feet of the nonparticipants. For every person that doesn't vote, a democrat sees a republican victory and visa versa. when an election doesn't go the way joe toolbox wants, he blames those who didn't vote, as if their not voting tipped the scales in ANY direction.

society is trained to blame those who don't want to play by the rules. they lay blame for societal ills at the feet of those who society fails most. if you don't want to work then you're lazy and a burden to the system. if you don't vote you're helping the bad guys, whoever they are. if you don't pay taxes then you're contributing to the failure of the health-care system, and the schools, and the state. if you commit any of a variety of minor crimes then you're a bed person deserving a lifetime of imprisonment.

there is a form of cultural guilt that enables this blaming the victim. we should all feel bad that huge corporations have raped the environment, so lets recycle and buy "green" and "organic". we should all feel bad for the wild species those corporations displace and destroy, so should we put them in zoos and terrariums instead of stopping the destruction of their homes. we should feel bad for huge banks that predated upon the lower classes before collapsing, so we should keep them afloat and let them continue to feed.

one day we'll all stand together and laugh at what we were, that's my hope for change.


I agree and am glad that you wrote this. :)

People talk about our economy as if it were a close family member recently diagnosed with cancer.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

It is against the interests of the U.S. people to be at constant war with other peoples. Whatever they are duped into thinking / supporting is irrelevant to this fact. Funny, however, that you try to call the U.S. people "ignorant" while at the same time attempting to justify the policies of somebody in line with that "ignorance."

This is ridiculous. It is not beneficial for Americans to be duped into dumb wars.



"Arab Launched"?!

Where did I even say "white launched"? You are a racist piece of shit, there was really no need to bring race into the equation.


Fuck that.

Let's see, the terrorists were Saudi, Jordanian, and some other nationality....what was it? I dunno, but I can tell that you he was an arab. Or was he egyptian?

Whatever. No, I'm not a racist. I fully realize that all types of people, not just one ethnicity, want to go up in the mountains and die so that there part of the world can remain in a shitty form of feudalism.


I would totally destroy the centralized corporate and state structures. How this is in line with the AnarchoCapitalists is beyond me.

I don't know. It's just that that's exactly what the Ron Paul people were for.


Fuck the AFL-CIO. I have dealt with that ridiculous organization a lot in my life, and I can say not onyl that they speak for no workers, but that their expenses are directly opposed to the interests of workers. On top of that, the workers have boldly proclaimed that they do not want to be in the AFL-CIO because it is so warm to corporate interests. That is why the Change to Win has garnered so much support.

Yeah I was in the ufcw when it merged or whatever. thought it was cool.

Anyway, didn't make a differecnce. If those scabs working at wal-mart unionized there could be some real power.....

Anyway, I'm worried for labor, in the general sense....Apparently W is trying to fill the corporate wish-list before he leaves office...I think many safety regulations will axed...