Mass Graves discovered - 15,000 corpses

[Invader Zim]

My god i saw this on the news and felt sick. I would like to say that before i was starting to agree with the popular view of many on the site. This news has placed things back into perspective again for me. Take a look at this.

Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3024989.stm)

This is a sick crime against all that is human. When the catch saddam i hope he is treated with the contempt and discust he truly deserves. I now believe that the war is completely justified. That monster HAD to be removed.

[commie kg]

I agree that he needed to be removed somehow, but the methods the US took to remove him were not justified.

[Anonymous]

???

"but the methods the US took to remove him were not justified."

How so? I mean, If you know another way we could have removed the Iraqi regime then please, do tell.

[hazard]

I am having some problems understanding this concept of "mass grave"

I mean, who is looking for them? last I heard all that was being looked for were weapons of mass destruction. so, did they give up THAT search and start looking for mass graves? I don't get it.

never have I heard, besides the propaganda of the western free enterprize press, that Iraq was guilty of anything other than attempting to build chemical weapons. these graves, if they are real, could from anything. I mean, how difficult is it to attribute mass graves from the twenty year Iraq / Iran conflict to Saddam.

the sheer convenience of their uncovering are what disturbs me

[Ymir]

They found 3000 corpses so far...they estimate a total of 15,000 possible. They have NOT found 15,000 as your thread suggests.

[hazard]

how much you wanna bet, if these graves ARE from the Iraq/Iran war (which they in all likelihood ARE) that the media and american government are gonna say it was Sadaam?

if we were living in a communist country I'd bet a roll of toilet paper that I am right. but since I live in a country that ink stained paper holds value, I'd bet a thousand dollars that I'm right.

[antieverything]

...when was it even a point of debate if Saddam was a cruel, ruthless tyrant?

Already Israel has told the Palestinians to take a lesson from the US action. How long until China invades Taiwan or India invades Pakistan? Those threats aren't even imagined...would these wars be justified?

[hazard]

anti-e:

sorry, I don't really understand what you're saying.

are you saying saddam IS or IS NOT a ruthless tyrant? I guess it can go either way. that is, even if he IS, he is less a ruthless tyrant than even the most leftist american leader in the history of that country.

[Dan Majerle]

hold on. Nobody is denying that Saddam is an evil man. Everyone knows he gassed the Kurds and has murdered thousands of people. So why do the Americans need to go looking for further evidence of his brutality when it is agreed upon around the world? Simple. This, (Saddam's brutality that has been going on for years since his first years in power and without U.S. or any objection) has superseded the earlier justifications of the war which were WMD. These of course don't exist so the U.S. is digging up old news like his executions and evil regime to justify having gone in, killed thousands of people and having prudently maintained Iraqi's oil supply. The U.S. has nothing going for it now so it has to keep anti-Saddam sentiment amongst the international commmunity to continue to receive its pathetic support.
In case nobody knew, Saddam had been a dictator for somethingl ike 30 years. How come nobody did anything about it then? Why did it take till 2003 to take action against him? Taking into account no WMD have bene found or no proof exisited, how was this a legitimate war. IF the U.S. suddenly has forgotten about WMD and is ocncerned with the removal of dictators, does that mean that China, North Korea and Zimbabwe along with almost every country in the middle east HAVE to be invaded. What makes these countries different to Iraq? If human rights are really respected why doesn't america invade its trading ally China? Oops, i just revealed why in that sentence.
So in conclusion yes Saddam is an evil man. But so is Mugabe, and so was Pinochet who America supported, and Batista who american supported, and Trujillo who America supported and unlike Iraq didn't invade and heaps of others. The U.S. department is tripping over itself trying to come out with excuses for the war and because of its failings initially is having to dig up facts aknowledged by everyone around the world for 30 years as to why it invaded.

[hazard]

I find it utterly incredible that EVERY SINGLE country america has gone to war with has committed genocide. or so they say. EVERY SINGLE LAST ONE OF THEM!

I mean of course, since they became a superpower

I mean, they can't ALL be genocidal maniacs, can they?

[Moskitto]

hold on. Nobody is denying that Saddam is an evil man. Everyone knows he gassed the Kurds and has murdered thousands of people.

sadly, I have seen people blame the Iranians for the gas attacks on the basis that "The Iraqis use Sarin nerve gas and the Iranians use Cyanide which was used against the Kurds." Cyanide can be made using HOUSEHOLD CHEMICALS.

[Liberty Lover]

Fuck! 4529 posts. Thats a fair few.

[Capitalist Killer]

Quote: from hazard on 2:05 am on May 14, 2003
how much you wanna bet, if these graves ARE from the Iraq/Iran war (which they in all likelihood ARE) that the media and american government are gonna say it was Sadaam?

if we were living in a communist country I'd bet a roll of toilet paper that I am right. but since I live in a country that ink stained paper holds value, I'd bet a thousand dollars that I'm right.


How much do you want to bet that they are sheit muslims executed by Saddam, I cant believe that you are denying the genocides commited by a fascist. Do you deny the holacaust as well?

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Dan Majerle on 2:35 am on May 14, 2003
hold on. Nobody is denying that Saddam is an evil man. Everyone knows he gassed the Kurds and has murdered thousands of people.


Not according to Hazard it seams.

Why are you denying this even though that site iposted has pictures?

[antieverything]

Fuck Hazard. The fact is, when the Nazis preemptively attacked Poland, the Polish ruling class was brutal and authoritarian...I'm sure they found a fair number of grave-sites there. The invaders were greeted by cheering crowds in some cases. When the Nazis preemptively invaded the USSR, they DID find mass-graves from Stalin's terror and they were again greeted by cheering crowds.

Imperialist aggression is imperialist aggression is imperialist aggression.

[Exploited Class]

Quote: from antieverything on 5:57 pm on May 14, 2003

Imperialist aggression is imperialist aggression is imperialist aggression.

Amen.

If America had been invaded in say the 1880s, we would have seen mass graves of Indians. Also taken out by imperialist expansion/aggression.

[Invader Zim]

Excuse me but why is this topic turning into another anti USA thread, not that i have a problem with slagging the USA, infact quite the oppersit. However I fail to see the logic in denying this latest holacaust, just because its the USA who descovered it. For god sake people, how can you possibly be so obtuse?

[Liberty Lover]

Quote: from antieverything on 5:57 pm on May 14, 2003
Fuck Hazard.

Amen.

[The Radical Elf]

Mass graves were discovered today in the Congo (see any news website if you don't believe me). 3.2 million people have already been killed in that country's civil war within the last five years. So why aren't you pro-war people advocating an invasion of the Congo to liberate that country?

The United States of AmeriKa murdered 200,000 Iraqis in Operation Desert Slaughter, killed another 1.2 million through 12 years of sanctions and bombing, and killed at least 20,000 in Operation Iraqi Massacre. Saddam is an evil man and his Baathist regime was evil, but Bush Jr.'s fascist AmeriKan regime is just as bad, if not worse. Saddam killed his country's people, and the Bushes killed the people of foreign countries by bombing, sanctions, invasions, and globalization (and some people would also blame Bush for the 3,000 American deaths on 9-11).

[Hampton]

So why aren't you pro-war people advocating an invasion of the Congo to liberate that country?

2 answers: No oil and they're black. Remember all that money that Bush was gonna give to Africa to try and stop AIDS? How long is that taking to get there? Mr. Bush travels to Europe next week where he is expected to urge leaders there to increase their own spending on AIDS in the developing world. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,11882,961832,00.html)

[Zombie]

2 answers: No oil and they're black.

F'cking Amen.

[Cassius Clay]

Saddam was a corrupt, Capitalist dictator who committed numerous atrocities against his own people.

The CIA recrutied him, taught him how to kill Communists, gave him all the weapons and congratulated him after gassing the Kurds. So any sympathy for all his victims by the ruling classes in America is purely hyprocitical and pathectic. No surprise there.

[Capitalist Killer]

Saddam was a tool of the evil fascist/capitalist governments, he like all capitalist pigs should be slapped down.

[antieverything]

Saddam was a corrupt, Capitalist dictator who committed numerous atrocities against his own people.Not to mention the fact that he was an avowed STALINIST. He had a shrine to the man. Of course, he was smart enough to realize that [in his own words] "Stalin wasn't really a Communist".

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

I don't think that comparing the evil of Bush with the evil of Saddam is the right way to go about this discussion. What needs to be observed is the fact that Bush's administration took no measures to remove Saddam with the force of the Iraqi people and according to their own will. Instead of funding an opposition party or a rebelion, he completely ignored the power and liberty of the people of Iraq by invading their country with his troops. Eventualy turning the country into a military wasteland. Is this respectful to the people of Iraq and their freedom?

[Cassius Clay]

Quote: quote]Not to mention the fact that he was an avowed STALINIST. He had a shrine to the man. Of course, he was smart enough to realize that [in his own words] "Stalin wasn't really a Communist".


I'll just note once again that it was somebody else who bought up Josef Stalin's name in a thread which had nothing to do with him. So let's get this straight, this 'Stalinist' is saying 'Stalin wasn't really a Communist'? Rightttttttttttttt. Not to mention your believing a vicious Capitalist thug for a opinion on Stalin.

I couldn't care if he 'had a shrine' to Stalin, first of all there is no evidence for this and second of all it's not anyone's fault the Fascist decides to believe his own propaganda about the man.

When was the last time the CIA recruited a 'Stalinist', eg a Communist from any orginisation? Thousands of Iraqi 'Stalinists' died at the hand of Saddam, Iraq was Capitalist, just like the U$A.

[Som]

Quote: from Moskitto on 10:44 am on May 14, 2003


sadly, I have seen people blame the Iranians for the gas attacks on the basis that "The Iraqis use Sarin nerve gas and the Iranians use Cyanide which was used against the Kurds." Cyanide can be made using HOUSEHOLD CHEMICALS.


from: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/a...article1148.htm (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1148.htm)

The agency did find that each side used gas against the other in the battle around Halabja. The condition of the dead Kurds' bodies, however, indicated they had been killed with a blood agent — that is, a cyanide-based gas — which Iran was known to use. The Iraqis, who are thought to have used mustard gas in the battle, are not known to have possessed blood agents at the time.

Iran thought the kurds had left halajba and it was occupying iraqi forces.

It's not some crackpot conspiracy theory here, its someone who was directly responsible for overlooking the incident for the CIA, it was put in the new york times, so on.

Not to say anything less bad about him, but just because we know hes the sort of bastard that would, doesn't mean we shouldn't take it all skeptically.

The United States of AmeriKa murdered 200,000 Iraqis in Operation Desert Slaughter, killed another 1.2 million through 12 years of sanctions and bombing, and killed at least 20,000 in Operation Iraqi Massacre.

Where'd you get 20,000? iraqbodycount.com puts it at about 6,000.

[Zombie]

Is this respectful to the people of Iraq and their freedom?

No.
But as long as the mass media enjoys showing how evil Saddam is, while disregarding the invader, people will tend to react the same way AK47 did in his first post.

Why only 'Saddam evil! Saddam evil!' when it's clearly 'Saddam Bush evil! Saddam Bush evil!'?

It's part of the great brainwashing industry we live in these days.
Only the ennemy is wrong. We, as liberators/invaders/murderers, are right no matter what.

.A.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

That's right Zombie. The American people, instead of regarding the lack of respect that Bush has given the Iraqi people and their subjection to Bush's military might, they focus strictly on the fact that they are now 'free' to be ruled according to the U$ Marine Corp, the most humanitarian organization in the world, and what great freedom that must be.

please note the sarcasm i used in various parts of the above post

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Zombie on 7:32 pm on May 23, 2003
Is this respectful to the people of Iraq and their freedom?

No.
But as long as the mass media enjoys showing how evil Saddam is, while disregarding the invader, people will tend to react the same way AK47 did in his first post.

Why only 'Saddam evil! Saddam evil!' when it's clearly 'Saddam Bush evil! Saddam Bush evil!'?

It's part of the great brainwashing industry we live in these days.
Only the ennemy is wrong. We, as liberators/invaders/murderers, are right no matter what.

.A.


The only differance being is i know how evil the USA is, but just dont choose to bring in there faults to every thread or post i make.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

AK47 made a valid point, Saddam is an evil dictator. My point was just that this thread has become a comparison between Bush and Hussein, which is pointless.

[Zombie]

Quote: from AK47 on 11:29 pm on May 23, 2003
[quote]The only differance being is i know how evil the USA is, but just dont choose to bring in there faults to every thread or post i make.


You seem to have a thing against critisizing the Imperialists, even more, you seem to enjoy posting the same material over and over again, which is Saddam's killings. YES WE KNOW ABOUT THEM, you have brought this issue oh so many times, you nearly said it yourself.
Fact is, you cannot talk about Saddam without referring to the Americans. Wasn't it them who 'facilitated' his rise as dictator? Or did he get there with the help of some magic fairies?

You want me to shut up, fine I will, if that will make everyone happy. I just don't see the point in neglecting the U$ actions, in this case even if they were (in)direct at some point in History.

.A.