Police? Blackwater? Soldiers? Lockheed or Boeing employees?

[jake williams]

So there's a discussion along the lines of "are police workers"? And there seems to be a view, if not a consensus, that police aren't because they are a critical instrument of the capitalist state. But what about soldiers? What about Blackwater employees?

What about the people who make bombs and planes for Lockheed and Boeing for the US military? How do we make these sorts of decisions? Are they important? I don't know if this topic has been dealt with before here, but it seems to me like it should be.

[jake williams]

Eh, probably a good call on the move. I didn't exactly phrase my post very clearly.

[Comrada J]

Regulars, reservists and conscripts, yes. Officers, no. Soldiers of fortune like BW are hired thugs that work for the highest bidder, are over payed four times the amount normal/govt. soldiers get - and aren't doing it for college, that said who's side do you think they'd be on?

Defense industry workers; they'd be with us, you could argue the 'morality' of building something intended to kill. But really, they're just factory workers. Last doco I saw on Lockheed showed how they exploited minorities in low-employment areas, can't blame em in circumstances like that. "How do we make these sorts of decisions?" I base my judgements on how they physically deal with other workers and wether if they've chosen this path voluntarily, e.g. a conscript has no choice in the matter where as the mercenary loves it and actively seeks it (conflict). Also there's the obvious consideration of power/position; army and police officers have more power than the average man and aren't apart of the working class. In my opinion officers are worse than their equivliant in other businesses because they carry weapons and their primary role is to kill/control the working class, face to face if need be. Although army CO is a somewhat different from a constable as in this case their targets may also be the middle and upper classes of another nation, but nationalism isn't a good trait either. Still, some support the army because of that (patriotism) and not the police.

[ernie]

So there's a discussion along the lines of "are police workers"? And there seems to be a view, if not a consensus, that police aren't because they are a critical instrument of the capitalist state. But what about soldiers? What about Blackwater employees?
As far as I can tell, that's not the reason people are arguing that cops aren't workers. Most people are arguing that they aren't proletarians, in the Marxist sense.

Others (like myself) are saying that it doesn't matter if they are workers, in the strict Marxist sense; what matters is that they volunteer to protect ruling class interests which, as we all know, are opposite to ours. If that's the case, then soldiers and private mercenaries like those employed by Blackwater fall in the same category. They are hired goons to protect ruling class interests, and they do so by oppressing the working class.


What about the people who make bombs and planes for Lockheed and Boeing for the US military? How do we make these sorts of decisions? Are they important? I don't know if this topic has been dealt with before here, but it seems to me like it should be.
I agree that it's a valid question. My opinion is that these workers are not in the same category as cops and, therefore, are not our class enemies.

First of all, I'm pretty sure that most of the parts that go into a missile are pretty generic and one cannot know to what use they will be put. But even if I'm wrong on this, all workers are creating profit for the ruling class, and this profit is more often than not used to defend ruling class interests. We can't help that. So Boeing workers are serving the ruling class to the same extent than, say, McDonald's employees are.

It follows that Boeing and Lockheed Martin employees are not our enemies because, again, they are not voluntarily protecting ruling class interests. That's the difference between them and cops/soldiers/goons. We could certainly try to persuade them to find another job that's less directly related to the military, but that's a different story.

All that being said, if some particularly nasty weapons (or torture device) company went out of business, I wouldn't shed a tear, even if some workers lose their jobs.

[Bear MacMillan]

I'd have to say that soldiers (not mercanaries) are included in the proletariat. Leftists who say that soldiers are not worker because they "support imperialism" ignore the fact that soldiers have prooved throughout history that they will turn against the system that sent them to war in favour of progress, the most notable example is obviously the Russian Revolution.

Classes are based off their relationship with the means of production, not their relationship with the state or imperialism.

[Oneironaut]

Cops to me have a petit-bourgeois mentality. I would argue that they aren't proletarians simply because they do not create value. Run-of-the-muck soldiers are strikingly proletarian and "volunteer" to defend imperialism because their relations to the means of production doesn't adequate supply their needs resulting in their opportunism. Private mercenaries are fucking goons. I can't say much more than that.

[The Douche]

I think if you really want to figure out if cops are workers and if soldiers are workers you should go talk to them.

I'm a soldier so I know lots of other soldiers, and some of them are very revolutionary, but they don't know it and they don't know what to do about it. They're in the military because they are poor and they don't really feel a special attatchment to the boss or the country, not anymore than any other citizen. And lots of them can see the other side of the picture and understand that "Iraqis just want to run their own country".

Cops though, in my experience don't care about anything but doing what they're told and only complain about it when it interferes with their life. And if you point out to them that their job is usually more about protecting property than people most of them will say "of course it is".

[#FF0000]

So there's a discussion along the lines of "are police workers"? And there seems to be a view, if not a consensus, that police aren't because they are a critical instrument of the capitalist state. But what about soldiers? What about Blackwater employees?

Cops and soldiers are part of the state, and are not workers. Marxists and Anarchists can agree on this. That isn't to say that individual soldiers can't have a revolutionary consciousness, but they are not workers as they don't create any wealth, and they are not revolutionary (while acting in their capacity as a cop or soldier), because they fight for the state, which is either the expression of the bourgeoisie's domination over the proletariat, or just another part of the ruling class, depending on whether you're a Marxist or an Anarchist.


What about the people who make bombs and planes for Lockheed and Boeing for the US military? How do we make these sorts of decisions? Are they important? I don't know if this topic has been dealt with before here, but it seems to me like it should be.

They are definitely still workers.

[Comrada J]

Soldiers create wealth when they attack and conquer another state. Haliburton's shares have doubled in the last 10 years right? Along with many other 'sponsors' of the middle east wars. I don't disagree with you; generally standing armies cost more than they are worth and spend most of their time sitting/standing around. But the capitalists wouldn't have something if didn't create wealth in way or another.

[JimmyJazz]

What about the people who make bombs and planes for Lockheed and Boeing for the US military?

I asked this a while back--since Boeing workers actually are on strike, and the PLP is supporting them--and DiatMat86 (I think that is his name) pointed out to me that whenever they are on strike is when they are not supplying the military with bombs and planes. Obviously they are not going to be on strike all the time, so they will still make imperialist weapons, but for what it's worth I thought he made a good point.

Anyway, they are just as exploited as anyone else, and just as capable of being turned against class society. If you watch the movie Why We Fight, it interviews at least one woman who works to produce American munitions, and she didn't seem like any special type of gung-ho patriot. As much as you and I might connect the dots from what she does to imperialist aggression, she seemed to just think of it as a job. Cops and soldiers, on the other hand, do on average seem to have a distinctly authoritarian personality (I say this both from personal experience/knowledge and from studies I've read in my "Psych and the Law" classes).

[Junius]

Uh...just because someone works for a company that you happen to find morally questionable, does not mean that they are not exploited. Exploitation is a economic relation, not a moral one which you can 'wish away' whenever it suits you. If you're interested in a parallel situation, in Germany in 1939, i.e. war time, 20% of the workers were absent from from Berlin ammunition factories on the day after pay day each week.


imperialist weapons

Did you miss an 's' or are you claiming there is such a thing as 'imperialist weapons?'

[JimmyJazz]

Did you miss an 's' or are you claiming there is such a thing as 'imperialist weapons?'

guess :)