Party for Socialism and Liberation

[Comrade B]

Can anyone tell me more about them? I really couldn't get much out of their issues other than basic information that all Marxists tend to agree on

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

They came out of a split from the Workers World Party

They are Marcyites that subscribe to bogus theory of "global class war."

A lot of bad politics comes out of this.

They uncritically throw their support behind Chavez in Venezuela. They opportunistically align themselves with reactionary groups. They misunderstand class (they argue that peasants belong are working class) and they blur class distinctions. Etc., etc., etc..

[black magick hustla]

They uncritically throw their support behind Chavez in Venezuela. They opportunistically align themselves with reactionary groups. They misunderstand class (they argue that peasants belong are working class) and they blur class distinctions. Etc., etc., etc..

Some workers that are labeled as "peasants" are workers though. Agricultural workers for example. i.e. people who work in others' lands and therefore get surplus value extracted from them.

[Comrade B]

I am a Chavez supporter.

Anyway... care to tell me about their views anyone? because this
A lot of bad politics comes out of this.
Is not going to cut it for me. I went through years of my life making my own opinion and I am not about to change a view because someone tells me something is "bad"

[Coggeh]

I am a Chavez supporter.

Anyway... care to tell me about their views anyone? because this
Is not going to cut it for me. I went through years of my life making my own opinion and I am not about to change a view because someone tells me something is "bad"
Well they have full support of the castro regime in cuba where one should defend the gains of the cuban revolution 100% but also criticize this regime for lack of democracy and worker power in that country, they "critically" support china which is amazing considering the human rights records of china and the fact that it engages in free market anti worker policies.

They uncritically support Chavez where as most leftists nowadays would support the gains obviously of a left wing change in government but would criticize his military dealings with russia while people are starving back in venezuala .

http://www.pslweb.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=9761&news_iv_ctrl=1040
In this article they denounce people who condemn china for their human rights records saying their ruining the importance of bringing people together in the Olympic games .

95% of the stuff on their site would be very appealing but IMO this sort of pragmatism towards politics is a joke .

I however am only stating my opinion which is what you asked for from members of this site . You have to chose what suits your politics best .
http://www.pslweb.org/site/PageServer There is their site .

But also here is a complied list of organizations their areas and ideologies and you should look into a host of them to find what suits you best . http://www.revleft.com/vb/political-organisations-t27951/index.html

Good luck anyway comrade:thumbup1:

[Comrade B]

Thanks for that information, I think I will need to compare these guys a lot to the Socialist Worker's Party a lot more before I decide which I support more. A lot of people have recently been asking who I think is the better of the two, and I thought it best that I could actually give them a response.


they "critically" support china
That was definitely the biggest let down for me, but it is better than what the mainstream parties do (completely ignore the existence of China, taking the money they get from it, and only mentioning it for populist votes)

[Coggeh]

Thanks for that information, I think I will need to compare these guys a lot to the Socialist Worker's Party a lot more before I decide which I support more. A lot of people have recently been asking who I think is the better of the two, and I thought it best that I could actually give them a response.
Don't get me started on the SWP .......

http://www.revleft.com/vb/swp-member-becomes-t93266/index.html
have a read .


Edit: actually is the SWP in the US different to that in Britain ? if so ignore that post thats about the party in Britain .

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ Is the SPUSA not running in your state? :(

[KC]

Their entire ideology is defined around "an enemy of my enemy (the US) is my friend."

Basically they believe that as long as some group or country is opposing the US they are progressive and should be supported.

They're probably the most blatantly opportunistic organization out there.

[Plagueround]

I watched some videos of La Riva and most of them were just her yelling about how bad the US was and how we "demand socialism" without really elaborating. I wasn't impressed and I think it's unfortunate that the left can't at least get someone out there to intelligently represent our views without making us look like incompetent bureaucrats or raving mad men/women.

[JimmyJazz]

Anyway... care to tell me about their views anyone? because this


A lot of bad politics comes out of this.

Is not going to cut it for me. I went through years of my life making my own opinion and I am not about to change a view because someone tells me something is "bad"

The burden of proof is on NHIA to show you that they're bad, or you'll join? :lol:

I've been to a few of their events- one that I just walked in the door from actually. What I know about them so far is that they have a very open membership (basically, anyone can join), and the result is that their meetings take the form of more-advanced people teaching at everyone else, with time for questions. A huge, huge turnoff for me (I don't learn by sitting there and listening, I learn by arguing).

They work on some anti-war stuff with the ANSWER coalition, but it does seem like the majority of their activity is self promotion (ugh).

At least some of their members who are leading meetings are big on dialectics, which is something I won't sit through again after sitting through it tonight. My life is too short for that stuff. :(

One of the big things that characterizes them though, and the reason I would never join them, is their obsession with police brutality and organizing around specific instances of it. Much the way that the SWP has fixated on industrial workers and gotten obsessed with the tactic of making their members get factory jobs, the PSL leadership seem to have decided that going into communities after police murders occur is *the* way to win people over. It's incredibly opportunist and there's nothing really Marxist about it (at least the SWP method seems to be pretty Marxist on the surface, if still rather silly).

But Gloria La Riva is a nice person who's willing to give long talks to tiny audiences, and I like a lot of what she has to say. She's incredibly knowledgeable about Cuba and has been there like 16 times or something ridiculous.


http://www.pslweb.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=9761&news_iv_ctrl=1040


wtf.

[Revy]

PSL has amazing website design. That's obvious. But they managed to grow immensely in 4 years. I think they can be admired. I would even favor a coalition type election arrangement with them in the future.

I don't agree with some of their politics. I think they can be much more critical of certain regimes. This comes from their roots in the Workers' World Party. For example, when talking about the imperialist threats faced by North Korea, they may talk about the need to defend North Korea's "socialist gains". Kim Jong il and the fact he controls the country with an iron fist is rarely mentioned.

However, they seem like a democratic group, and unlike many of the self-serving sects in the US, they run their own candidates, instead of endorsing a capitalist (in fact, the Workers' World Party has since endorsed Cynthia McKinney). I would, of course, urge people to join the SPUSA, but I would rank PSL as a second choice.

[Revy]

Don't get me started on the SWP .......

http://www.revleft.com/vb/swp-member-becomes-t93266/index.html
have a read .


Edit: actually is the SWP in the US different to that in Britain ? if so ignore that post thats about the party in Britain .

The main problem with the SWP (US) is that it is an authoritarian personality cult operating as a capitalist business, forcing its members to only work in low-paying jobs so they are close to the working class while the leadership lives much more luxuriously.

[Zeus the Moose]

The main problem with the SWP (US) is that it is an authoritarian personality cult operating as a capitalist business, forcing its members to only work in low-paying jobs so they are close to the working class while the leadership lives much more luxuriously.

I think you're mixing up the SWP and the SEP.

[chegitz guevara]

I think you're mixing up the SWP and the SEP.

Both groups are cults. SEP is by far the worst, but Mussolini shouldn't be cut any slack because he wasn't as bad as Hitler. I have met very few people how went through the SWP that didn't come out damaged goods. The organization, Solidarity (of which I am a member--the SP and Solidarity allow dual membership) at times seems like a halfway house for recovering SWP victims.

For me, that's the key difference between PSL and the SWP. PSL isn't a cult. It may not have the best politics (and could we really agree on who does?), but they are very militant, class conscious, and openly communist.

Many of the criticisms in this thread of PSL's politics and actions are valid, but at least they aren't a cult.

On the specific point, the SWP recently sold its building in Manhattan for around $40 million. The leaders, Jack Barnes and Mary Alice Waters sold their Manhattan apartment for 1.8 million. Meanwhile, their members are required to work factory jobs, donate to the party as much as possible, are told where they can or cannot live (at least they are allowed to live with their partners--something that two of my comrades in Spark were not allowed to do), forced to relocate at the whim of the leadership, etc. One of my comrades is the daughter of two SWP members. They just bought a house in a location they were assigned to, and now have to move because the party wants them someplace else. Pathfinder Publishing is, at least, owned by the party, unlike David North's publishing business.

[Valeofruin]

^^^ Is the SPUSA not running in your state? :(

lol your kidding right?

Don't you have an interview on fox news to attend?

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I've been to a few of their events- one that I just walked in the door from actually. What I know about them so far is that they have a very open membership (basically, anyone can join), and the result is that their meetings take the form of more-advanced people teaching at everyone else, with time for questions. A huge, huge turnoff for me (I don't learn by sitting there and listening, I learn by arguing).

Yep. More than one person has said that their meetings remind them of a Baptist church sermon. I once attended a public meeting in which a probationary member was given full members. She burst into tears and gave an acceptance speech. Very bizarre to say the least.

There is a process to membership, but although they seem to formally require a certain level of knowledge and understanding, many people have had similar experiences to yours. A comrade of mine went to a public meeting they held in their Harlem office and witnessed one of their members arguing in support of Leonel Fernandez, president of the Dominican Republic, who has carried out all sorts of reactionary acts, and who criticizes political opponents for being "leftists."


One of the big things that characterizes them though, and the reason I would never join them, is their obsession with police brutality and organizing around specific instances of it.

That's not just a tactical error. It flows from their opportunistic and reformist politics.


Their entire ideology is defined around "an enemy of my enemy (the US) is my friend."

Yep... a/k/a "global class war," which is what I said in my earlier post.


I am a Chavez supporter.

Uncritically?

Communists don't lend uncritical supporting the leader of a capitalist state ("progressive," "socialist," or otherwise). We fight for the political independence of the working class, the revolutionary destruction (not seizure!) of the capitalist state, and the construction of proletarian states internationally.


I went through years of my life making my own opinion and I am not about to change a view because someone tells me something is "bad".

I gave you some examples.

The Marcyites have historically supported people like Saddam, Milosevic, and Hezbollah. They originally split from the SWP because they supported the USSR's crushing of the workers' uprising in Hungary.

You asked about the PSL and you got answers.

* * *

Here's their latest opportunist/reformist maneuver: http://www.votenobailout.org/

It's a website with a ready-made letter you can send to your congressman!

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Some workers that are labeled as "peasants" are workers though. Agricultural workers for example. i.e. people who work in others' lands and therefore get surplus value extracted from them.

No doubt. Agricultural laborers are proletarians. That's not what I'm talking about though.