Socialism

[deLarge]

I've been examining several different economic systems, and have been so by first finding their base assumptions, and the logic by which they achieve that particular school's conclusion.

At first I found Objectivism quite attractive, but after examining it, I found several problems (namely that Objectivism is only viable in a society of non-Objectivists), along with the overall bad taste that it left in my mouth..

So, I'm now studying socialism. I believe that my main problem has to do with the Labour Theory of Value, which I don't see as completely represenetive of the value of a product, not to mention the problem of quantifying the value of labour itself.. Could anyone clear this up?

[Q]

I've been examining several different economic systems, and have been so by first finding their base assumptions, and the logic by which they achieve that particular school's conclusion.

At first I found Objectivism quite attractive, but after examining it, I found several problems (namely that Objectivism is only viable in a society of non-Objectivists), along with the overall bad taste that it left in my mouth..

So, I'm now studying socialism. I believe that my main problem has to do with the Labour Theory of Value, which I don't see as completely represenetive of the value of a product, not to mention the problem of quantifying the value of labour itself.. Could anyone clear this up?

After reading this short article on the Labour Theory of Value (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/l/a.htm#labour-theory-value), I suggest reading Wage Labour and Capital (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/wage-labour/index.htm) which elaborates a lot of the basic stuff.

If you have any specific questions, do ask ahead, but saying "I believe that my main problem has to do with the Labour Theory of Value, which I don't see as completely represenetive of the value of a product, not to mention the problem of quantifying the value of labour itself" signifies you haven't studied the case of subject enough.

If you have more questions about socialism, fire away, but be specific.

[Hit The North]

Or you can give your eyes a rest and access the online audio book of Marx's Wage Labour and Capital here: http://www.marxists.org/audiobooks/archive/marx-engels/wage-labor/index.htm

[benhur]

LTV is confusing, because isn't labor just part of the production process, rather than the whole? The cost of machinery, raw materials etc. are also part of production, so how can price be determined by labor time alone?

[Schrödinger's Cat]

LTV is confusing, because isn't labor just part of the production process, rather than the whole? The cost of machinery, raw materials etc. are also part of production, so how can price be determined by labor time alone?

Cost isn't the same thing as value. We're looking at a general exchange - in other words, why one automobile might exchange for five hundred ipods.

You also have to consider that labor went into producing the machinery and extracting the raw materials. If oil was easily available like air or water, its value (and cost) would drop dramatically.

Value is also influenced by the environment and personal preferences (water's value shoots up when stranded in a desert - because it requires more labor to find water there than in a major city), but labor is the overwhelming conception.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

LTV is confusing, because isn't labor just part of the production process, rather than the whole? The cost of machinery, raw materials etc. are also part of production, so how can price be determined by labor time alone?

Cost isn't the same thing as value. We're looking at a general exchange - in other words, why one automobile might exchange for five hundred ipods. It's perceived to bring about the same amount of benefit in a market.

You also have to consider that labor went into producing the machinery and extracting the raw materials. If oil was easily available like air or water, its value would drop dramatically.

Value is also influenced by the environment and personal preferences (water's value shoots up when stranded in a desert - because it requires more labor to find water there than in a major city), but labor is the overwhelming conception. Personal preferences come into play more for utility value - the value towards someone who wants to own and use the commodity.

[mikelepore]

In the first post, you said you were comparing various economic systems and, when you considered socialism, you had a problem with the labor theory of value. The way you said make me wonder if you are clear on this point: a socialist economic system would NOT be based on the labor theory of value. Marxian socialists make the assertion that the labor theory of value explains how *capitalism* works. The purpose of the theory is to explain the sources of wages and prices and profits in the capitalist society that's being criticized. The establishment of socialism is the thing that would make that economic law *stop* working.