A question about the word "queer"

[Os Cangaceiros]

Is it's meaning solely reserved for homosexuality?

I was just wondering this as Dan Savage (a gay commentator) said that the word also applies to people who are into BDSM. And I can only assume other sexual behaviors that deviate from the norm.

[apathy maybe]

The meaning of "queer" when it comes to sexuality has a few possibilities. It could mean anything from "not-normal" (which would thus include BDSM, as well as gay, lesbian and bi) to just "not-herto" (which would thus not include hetero BDSM types).

It most definitely doesn't mean "gay" or "gay and lesbian". It always includes bi, and often trans and inter-sex.

To quote the Wikipedia article:

The term is still considered by some to be offensive and derisive, and by others as a re-appropriated term used to describe a sexual orientation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_orientation) and/or gender identity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity) or gender (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender) expression that does not conform to heteronormative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heteronormativity) society.

[jake williams]

Queer is generally used now (as far as my experience with it goes) to people who can face challenges because they have some strangeness in their sexuality, and it's consciously and intentionally pretty broad. It definitely applies to BDSM, I think especially people who really identify with the "BDSM community".

[Sam_b]

When i've encountered the word it often significes a rejection of pigeonholing oneself into conforming or being restricted by sexual terms such as 'homosexual' and 'heterosexual'.

[Black Dagger]

I think it's worth pointing out that although many queer folks might be into BDSM, i seriously doubt the vast majority of hetero BDSM enthusiasts identify as 'queer'.

[jake williams]

When i've encountered the word it often significes a rejection of pigeonholing oneself into conforming or being restricted by sexual terms such as 'homosexual' and 'heterosexual'.
This is a big part of it. BD's point is correct and worth considering, but I guess my point was more along the lines that I doubt many people who self-identify as queer would object to BDSM people using the term too. As to whether or not the general BDSM community accepts the label I can't tell you because to tell you the truth while I'm straight I have less of an "ick factor" personally when it comes to gay sex than when it comes to straight BDSM stuff, and so I just don't know as much about it. Also it's less mainstream and accessible to people outside of the community.

ed: Wikipedia = truth

In contemporary usage, some use queer as an inclusive, unifying sociopolitical umbrella term (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umbrella_term) for people who are gay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay), lesbian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesbian), bisexual (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisexuality), transgender (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender), transsexual (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexual), intersexual (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersexual), genderqueer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderqueer), or of any other non-heterosexual sexuality, sexual anatomy, or gender identity. It can also include asexual (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asexual) and autosexual (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autosexual) people, as well as gender normative heterosexuals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heteronormativity) whose sexual orientations or activities place them outside the heterosexual-defined mainstream (e.g. BDSM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDSM) practitioners, or polyamorous (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyamory) persons). Queer in this sense (depending on how broadly it is defined) is commonly used as a synonym for such terms as LGBT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT).

[Revy]

I think it's worth pointing out that although many queer folks might be into BDSM, i seriously doubt the vast majority of hetero BDSM enthusiasts identify as 'queer'.

There are some people who want to identify as queer because of their own guilt over being heterosexual. I'm gay, and I think if one is exclusively attracted to the opposite sex, what right does one have to call themselves queer? The word refers to LGBT people/non-heterosexuals.

Dan Savage is not the spokesperson for the gay community. The vast majority of gays do not care about BDSM nor do they connect a fetish of getting whipped to the political term relating to the community. Dan Savage supported the war in Iraq. Need I say more.

[Black Dagger]

There are some people who want to identify as queer because of their own guilt over being heterosexual.

That's certainly possible, though i doubt you have any serious evidence to support this view.



I'm gay, and I think if one is exclusively attracted to the opposite sex, what right does one have to call themselves queer? The word refers to LGBT people/non-heterosexuals.

I disagree. The term 'queer' is not a sexual orientation like 'heterosexual' or 'gay' it doesn't mean the same thing as 'LGBT' - because queer is not a 'sexuality' - though obviously a lot of people who self-identify as 'queer' are LGBT. So if not a 'sexuality' what is it? Well that depends on who you ask - we could talk about queer theory and use this to give a definition of 'queer'. This would probably entail a critique of (hetero) sexual norms - positing 'queer' and queer identifying people as rejecting these norms as well as (probably) the gender-binary. In this way, someone could be attracted exclusively to the opposite sex but self-identify as 'queer' - with 'queer' being used as sort of a/an (re)evolution in sexual identity.
Or we could look at the reality or praxis of 'queer' groupings, organisations etc. their membership in order to craft a definition - who is included in these groups? How do these group define or draw boundaries on this term?

From my experience in queer organising a few things, first - most people involved in at least queer activist groups that i know or have met are LGBT, and not 'exclusively attracted to the opposite sex'. But this is not because of political exclusion, quite the opposite - all groups that i have been involved with or had contact with were very keen to be open and welcoming to anyone who rejected heterosexual norms and identifying as 'queer'- even if they were exclusively attracted to the opposite sex. Heterosexuality - who or what is constructed as 'heterosexual' much more complex or nuanced then simply being attracted to the opposite sex - there are (behavioural) boundaries to this term that once crossed could lead to others to respond to you socially you as something else (the horrors! :lol:).
So from an academic context - the concept of 'queer' would certainly accomodate the people you talk about. In the context of political praxis (rememering that 'queer' is more of a vehicle of sexual and feminist politics than it is a type of sexuality) and this is from just my personal experience, such people are not really common - most people i know and have involved in queer politics are lesbians/gay women/men - but as long as someone identified as 'queer' they would usually be welcomed rather than excluded. Again, such people are quite uncommon. And certainly hetero-identifying people would be excluded from participation outside of a support role as 'allies'.

[Revy]

"I'm here, I'm queer, get used to it" was always used by non-heterosexual men and women. "Queer" has roots as a term of abuse against homosexuals.

Heterosexuals might want to identify as "queer" for political hipness, without having to deal with the consequences of being LGBT. BDSM, perhaps it deviates from the norm, but not heterosexuality, if it's in a heterosexual context. A scat fetish also deviates from the norm, is it "queer"? The effort put into "de-gaying" queer, I really can't appreciate.

I don't care what place heterosexuals have in the movement for gay liberation. It is not my position to "exclude" them from any kind of participation. That would be prejudiced in itself. But heterosexuals can not usurp LGBT political terms for their own uses. And I'm pretty sure that most LGBT people would agree with me that it is a stretch to categorize people that are into Bondage & Sado-Masochism as "queer".

[Rosa Provokateur]

Pretty sure its meant for gays. Its a good word and I prefer it instead of "fag"; plus terms like "queercore" and "queers bash back" are fun:D

[Black Dagger]

Pretty sure its meant for gays.

'Gays'? What are you talking about? Sorry, but I don't think you have any understanding of the history of the term or its use :unsure:

[atheist_anarchist]

definition from dictionary.com
"1.strange or odd from a conventional viewpoint; unusually different; singular: a queer notion of justice."

[Module]

Is it's meaning solely reserved for homosexuality?No, it doesn't seem to be reserved for anything, 'formally'.
In practice it seems to be reserved for LGBTQQIUVWXYZ people, plus pretentious indie fucks. (Ooo)
But then of course I probably don't have any understanding of the history of the term, either.
I would never call myself 'queer', because it just sounds like pretentious bullshit to me, and Black Dagger's post seems to verify that it's not really a term for us regular people (though of course he will argue that the kind of people who read and write "queer theory", and are involved in "queer organising" are in all senses "regular people"), anyway, rather some weird political identity.
Stancel, I tend to agree with you, though it may be pure cynicism, it sounds like the new and improved 'bisexual'; you're no longer sexually boring, and conveniently you don't even have to find people of the same sex attractive! It's a win win for the trendy bohemians out there.
I'm probably going to regret posting this once the shit storm begins.

[Bilan]

In practice it seems to be reserved for LGBTQQIUVWXYZ people, plus pretentious indie fucks. (Ooo)

?

[Module]

What's the trouble?
(EDIT: after msn discussion the trouble was the use of the word 'indie fucks', so if other people consider this to refer to a specific subculture, 'alternatives' would be a better word to use.)

[Hiero]

Pretty sure its meant for gays. Its a good word and I prefer it instead of "fag"; plus terms like "queercore" and "queers bash back" are fun:D

Fo you it is a better substitute for a derogatory word?

[Sasha]

I use the word queer to discribe myself, i'm by far more atracted to the opposite sex (in my case women) and (until now) only have had long term relationships with women yet i do regulary sleep with men and reject traditional exclusive monogamues relationships. I'n not straight, i'm sure as hell not gay and i dont like to identenfy as bi-sexual because for me the term doesn't involve the rejection of the hetro-sexist normative.

for me being queer is about that, not wanting to confrom on society's norms when it comes to sex(ual orietation).

so i think you can be straight and still be queer but i also think you can be gay and not be queer (like dan savage ;-) )

Same goes for BDSM, if your married/ living together (with an member of the oposite sex or not) have good careers, a house, 1.8 kids and an golden retriever but sometimes like to spank eachother in the bedroom or in a club you're IMO not queer.

but i do think that if you are queer being in to BDSM can be part of that.

[Black Dagger]

and Black Dagger's post seems to verify that it's not really a term for us regular people What do you mean by regular people? Heteros?



(though of course [BD] will argue that the kind of people who read and write "queer theory", and are involved in "queer organising" are in all senses "regular people"), anyway

I'm not sure what you're getting at here?



rather some weird political identity.

What do you find weird about it?



Stancel, I tend to agree with you, though it may be pure cynicism, it sounds like the new and improved 'bisexual'

I disagree.

'Queer' does not just have one definition or connotation. For example there is 'queer' identity in the political sense of the word which does involve rejecting Heteronormativity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heteronormativity) - but there are other contexts where the term is used without any political connotation at all. Such as LGBT peoples using 'queer' as a synonym for LGBT - whether as a self-identification or talking about others etc. (like perhaps whem the 'exact' sexual orientation of an individual is unknown but probably LGBT-something).

Also as i said before, the overwhelming majority of self-identifying 'queers' i know, have met or that i am aware of through friends - are lesbians/gay - so i don't think the idea of queer as a 'new' 'bi' identity really stacks up - it certainly isn't apparent at all from my experience. That idea is also undermined by the fact that 'queer' is not a specific form of sexuality - neither LGBT or hetero - but in the context of queer theory it is fundamentally a critique of heteronormativity, gender and the construction of human sexuality. So given all that, i think to criticise queer or queer-identifying people as 'bi-wannabe bohemians' is bizarre, and pretty ignorant :thumbdown:

[Peaceful Revolutionary]

I've always considered queer to either mean homosexual, or just something that differs from normality.

[BobKKKindle$]

The term "queer" is not limited to homosexuals although the term is predominantly used by homosexuals simply because they constitute the biggest group which does not conform to expected standards of sexual and romantic behavior. This does not mean that only homosexuals should be able to use the term or that it should be associated only with homosexuality, because although the queer community does encompass a variety of sexual practices, all of the community's members are united by the fact that "mainstream" society has traditionally been opposed to anything which does not conform to the narrow scope of sexual behavior permitted by bourgeois morality.

[Rosa Provokateur]

Fo you it is a better substitute for a derogatory word?
Well if someone calls me queer I just say, "queers bash back". I've got no comeback for "fag".

[bcbm]

I've got no comeback for "fag".

Punch them in the spleen until it ruptures?