Ephebophilia: Why is it conflated with paedophilia?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

This topic was inspired by a conversation I overheard today; basically, some guy was talking about this 19 year old guy who was having sexual relations with a 14 year old female - he was obviously disgusted by it, and expressed a desire to direct physical violence towards the 19 year old.

Why is there this tendency to consider sex with young teens to be equivalent to sex with pre-pubescent children? I really don't understand it, especially considering that pre-pubescents display virtually no interest in sex while on the other hand you simply can't stop most adolescents from thinking about it all the time. In fact unless I'm mistaken, sex education in the UK starts just before or right at the beginning of puberty, and I suspect the natural horniness of teenagers is the reason for this.

I also suspect there's an element of patriarchy involved as well; sex with 14 year old females seems to attract much more vitriol than sex with 14 year old males.

How universal is this attitude? Is it merely limited to Anglophone cultures?

So what are your thoughts, and does anyone have any decent articles and such on this topic?

[Lynx]

There was the Mary Kay Letourneau case that stirred controversy a number of years ago. Super double standard, males are conditioned to be appreciative of female attention while females are to be protected from predatory males. The law makes no distinction according to gender and some people have a problem with that.

[Jazzratt]

My guess is that because the laws that define paedophilia (rather than the scientific language that does) are based on the idea that all sexual acts performed on a person below the age of consent are paedophilic. When you combine this with unreasonably high age thresholds designed to "protect" those who are slow to mature it becomes quite obvious. People have simply become used to the idea that sex with anyone under 16/18/whatever is paedophilia because that's what the law & the tabloids say. The idea that there is a distinction probably doesn't cross the minds of the kind of people who would advocate violence against someone for a sexual relationship involving 5 years of age difference.

[Wanted Man]

There was the Mary Kay Letourneau case that stirred controversy a number of years ago. Super double standard, males are conditioned to be appreciative of female attention while females are to be protected from predatory males. The law makes no distinction according to gender and some people have a problem with that.
Yeah. I'm also reminded of the case of Debra LaFave, a teacher who had sex with a teenage boy. On the internet, there were a lot of disgusted reactions, but also a lot of the "pat on the back" variety: "Way to go champ! She's hot!" etc. But it's different the other way around, apparently.

[jake williams]

Two sort of related ones. The first I won't harp on because I don't really want to get into it, but I think part of it is that it's part of a discourse intended to oppress young people, and you do this by conflating 16-year-olds with 12-year-olds with 4-year-olds as "children", which they are legally.

The second one is that making the distinction suggests one make some pretty subtle distinctions and value judgements involving a lot of different sexual relationships and activities, but all of which make people feel uncomfortable. You just have to actually think a lot about 14-year-olds having sex with 19-year-olds and 12-year-olds having sex with 8-year-olds and 40-year-olds having sex with 2-year-olds to work out all the distinctions, which are complicated but which people don't want to think about.

[Module]

Ephebophilia is related to paedophilia in that both are related to sexual activity being considered something that corrupts human beings, children being regarded as having 'innocence' that should be protected, and 'childhood' being extended nowadays far past the point it was in the past, that is, children stay dependent upon their parents for a much longer time.
I would say it probably was limited to Anglophone cultures, but obviously this hasn't been the case throughout history, that is teenagers have not been considered sexually 'children' throughout history in Anglophone cultures. Either way, it's a cultural thing, and it would be fairly modern.

[Melbourne Lefty]

I hate to say it, but the idea of a 60 year old in a relationship with a 13 year old does make me uneasy.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I hate to say it, but the idea of a 60 year old in a relationship with a 13 year old does make me uneasy.

The thing is though, how many 13 year olds would want to be in a sexual relationship with a 60 year old? I'm not saying it would never happen, but you have to consider the mind of the 13 year old when making such arguments. I reckon s/he'd much more likely go for someone who's 13 to 25.

[al8]

One would also (or many would also) be quite uneasy thinking about some sexual acts adults do with adults. Such as imagining Granny and Granpa sex, ugh. But although it as a yuck factor it isn't penalized. And same goes with adults that get sexual gratification from scissoring the heads off of dolls. It may make you uneasy but it's your fault that you are thinking to much about it. I don't think people take the same good careful think about every other sextual act. Most of it would make one so uneasy. Like imagining the sex between your parents. Or sex between fat people. Would it be right to penalize it because of our sensiblities?

[Sentinel]

Anyone who has reached puberty should have the right to choose their sexual partners without interference from society or parents. Once a person reaches puberty they become a sexual being -- and society should only interfere to prevent parents from interfering in their decisions concerning sexual life.

On the other hand, sexual relations between pre- and postpubescents by definition constitute abuse and should not be tolerated by society. And I think it's quite easy to make the distinction between these two types of relationships.

I think our collective efforts should be focused on preventing abuse of any kind. And as long as a case by case basis and a rational, non-emotional approach are applied, it will be easy to see whether abuse is present or not.

[jake williams]

Anyone who has reached puberty should have the right to choose their sexual partners without interference from society or parents. Once a person reaches puberty they become a sexual being -- and society should only interfere to prevent parents from interfering in their decisions concerning sexual life.

On the other hand, sexual relations between pre- and postpubescents by definition constitute abuse and should not be tolerated by society. And I think it's quite easy to make the distinction between these two types of relationships.
I'm uncomfortable with this for two main reasons. Puberty is at very least non-arbitrary and that's a good start. But first, I think we need to rationally recognize that prepubescent children are still sexual, even if it's a "different kind" of sexuality, and even if we still decide that adults or sexually mature people shouldn't have sex with prepubescent children, or even if we decide there should be no sexual activity involving prepubescent children at all (which with a sensibly broad definition of "sexual" I don't think is realistic).

Second, what about early puberty? Or late puberty? If someone is 19 but not sexually mature physically, should they be allowed to be sexual?


I think our collective efforts should be focused on preventing abuse of any kind. And as long as a case by case basis and a rational, non-emotional approach are applied, it will be easy to see whether abuse is present or not.
Agreed.

[communard resolution]

But first, I think we need to rationally recognize that prepubescent children are still sexual

I disagree with the notion of children being asexual too. They aren't, at least not from my memories of childhood. Which makes matters in this discussion more complicated.


even if it's a "different kind" of sexuality.In early childhood it is different, true. But even before reaching puberty it becomes increasingly more 'normal', probably due to external influences. My friends from school and I masturbated over soft porn magazines at the age of 8 or 9, years before we were even capable of ejaculating. I'm sure we weren't exceptions.

Is the 'sexual maturity' supposedly setting in with the beginning of puberty perhaps incorrectly lumped together with the rather distinct ability to conceive? One relates to someone's psychology, the other one is physical.

[Dr Mindbender]

i blame right wing knee jerkers who want to tar anyone with the same brush that dare to deviate from the christian nuclear family textbook of sexual practice. Nuff said.

I think it's bollocks that a teacher can be prosecuted for fucking a 16 year old pupil. I don't buy the 'unfair nepotism' line because by the same logic an employer should be jailed for having sex with an employee.

[Oneironaut]

I think our collective efforts should be focused on preventing abuse of any kind. And as long as a case by case basis and a rational, non-emotional approach are applied, it will be easy to see whether abuse is present or not.

Spot on! I couldn't generalize any "laws" that would prevent abuse. I am not one to say that a 50 year old man having sexual relations with a 13 year old is always going to be abusive... but if at the first inclination of abuse society should intervene.

[Mecha_Shiva]

i think the main point for that law is so the "child" is not being taken advantage of. They may have gone through puberty and their body may be ready for sex, but in some cases they may not be compeltly educated for it yet. And if a kid doesnt know about condoms and preganacies and stds, then an older person could use this to their advantage and then take advantage of that younger person. Like the older one might be able to convince the younger one "Hey you dont need a condom cuz if you do it in the water or in this certain position etc. etc. you cant get pregnant or you cant get sick from me..." Or they may not even know about the possibility of stds in the first place. if someone doesnt fully know the facts they could really get screwed over.
So as long as that is not going on, I would see it fine for a 19 year old to date a 14 year old. As long as they are both fully educated and aware of what they are doing.

And as for the whole teacher student thing, i dont know if its as big a deal in highschool, but at least in college i think academic integrity could be involved. i dont give a shit about there ages, but id be pissed that just because some kid is screwing the teacher theyre gonna get grades that they didnt really earn possibly.

[DreamWeaver]

I'm with Sentinel on this one, but it's extremely hard to design laws that apply to everyone, since every single person is different. The law tries to draw a line between children and adults by putting down an age of consent, but it isn't nearly that simple. For example, in some places a (sexual) relationship between a 16 year old and a 19 year old leads to penalties, even though I know a lot of 16 year olds who'd rather abuse me instead of the other way around. Add to that the horror parents have about their sweet little babies engaging in the disgusting act of sex, and you have a receipe for drama.

And about the teacher-student relations; these should be forbidden anyway, even if they are the same age. It's about power, one is dependant on the other, therefore an equal relation cannot exist. And if you can't have equality, the leap towards abuse becomes a lot smaller.

[Foldered]

I'm not too sure where I stand on this issue.

I had relations and a relationship with the Teaching Assistant in one of my classes last year. We have a seven year age gap (I was 18, she was 25); so really, a 5 year age gap (14-19) should not bother me.

I have a thing against high school grads dating people still in high school though. It's more of an intellectual than physical thing; I understand why a 19 year old would want to sleep with a 14 year old or whatever. I don't understand why a 19 year old would date a 14 year old; there is a huge intellectual rift.

[AAFCE]

We have had 2 teacgers in the past year fired for having sex/asking for n00dz at school.

One teacher was 24, the other was like 22.
Both tried it with 17 year olds and got the boot from school.

Not sure if the fact they were teachers make it worse, but I found this rediculous..

[Jazzratt]

I don't understand why a 19 year old would date a 14 year old; there is a huge intellectual rift.

You'd think so wouldn't you but, as with everything else, exceptions do exist*. I imagine for the most part you are right and a 19 year old wouldn't even want to go out with a 14 year old, rendering any discussion about it moot. However if they do want to I'm not entirely sure there's a problem.

*I met one such exception a while back, I didn't want to date her but I was genuinely shocked when i found out her age (14/15 I can't really remember), apparently it happens with her all the time. Hell even some members of this site are very young and I've seen them intellectually trample people near twice their age.